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So, if I, one, trust in God, right, if I, one, trust in God, and also live my life trying to walk in His image, what, like, what contrary does that do for me and you, like, on our end point to heaven, other than me solely believing that I just have to trust in Him, you know what I mean? Sure. If I said, hey, I'm gonna, let's go to Australia, and you said, okay, and I said, hey, there's only one way for it to get us to Australia, we have to get on this plane, this is the only plane that's going. And you say, no, I'm good, I'm gonna swim. Are we both gonna get there? Depends if I'm a good swimmer or not. Yeah, you can't swim that far. College is considered an institution of higher learning. Where students are supposed to be challenged, their ideas are questioned, and to become the best future leaders of our nation. I decided to go to the University of Texas in Austin to find out what the best and brightest of our state had to offer. We hear that our institutions are being infiltrated with feminism, communism, liberalism, atheism, but maybe they have better ideas. I put them to the challenge to see if anyone could prove me wrong. Hey, it's Pastor Shelley at the University of Texas in Austin. We're talking to different students on different topics. Right now we're talking about women should stay home. And before we get into that, I just want to ask you a few questions. What's your name? My name is Juan Mora. And you go to school here? Yes, I do. I'm a third year here. Third year. And what kind of degree are you looking to get here? I'm looking to get an exercise science degree and I also do prerequisites for PT school where I plan to go right after this. Okay. And what kind of career does that lead to? It's rehabilitation with athletes. I just plan to work with high performing athletes, operating out of my own personal gym in the future. Like, does that, could you work in like the NFL or MLB or like, uh, is that like a career path? Potentially, yes. Like, uh, athletes, whenever they are recovering from like ACL injury, et cetera, they can just come to me and then I'll help them with rehabilitation. Does that mean that you could, uh, you could help many sports at the same time? Yes. Okay, great. Now we're talking about something that I guess probably sparks a little controversy with some people, but I believe that women should stay home. And just to give you kind of a context about that, I'm mostly focused on a husband and a wife where the man is married and the woman's married to each other. And instead of this woman going out and getting a job, going to the university, getting a career that she would stay home, raise kids, raise her family, and not go out and have to pay any bills. The husband pays a hundred percent. That's what I believe. Uh, what do you think about that? Um, so that's more like a traditional point of view, like kind of how it was like, like the past, I would say like a couple of centuries, you know what I mean? Where like, um, basically the, like you were saying, husband goes out, woman stays home with the kids, providing for the kids and, um, for the household. So I'm not necessarily a thousand percent against that, but what was your, what would be your view on like, if she was interested in expanding her knowledge and wisdom and like a career like engineering or any career that she would like to, you know? I think that women should be as educated as possible. So I think that women should seek after education. I don't think they have to come to a university to become very highly educated, but I don't think that university makes sense in the sense that most of the time, the reason you go to college is to get a job, get a career. And since I don't think she should have a job or a career, I don't think it makes sense to go to a university to get like an engineering degree if she's going to be raising children focused on things about the house. So that's kind of my viewpoint as far as education is concerned. Gotcha. Interesting. So, um, if like a male is making the income to support his family and the entire household, like I understand to an extent, but what if, what if he's not, what if he is needing like another percent of the pie to contribute to the expenses of the household? Well, I think it is the, the premise of the question is really on men being willing to, uh, basically step up to the plate and provide for his household. And I think the Bible teaches this, you know, it says in first, um, Timothy chapter number five, it talks about men providing for his household and it says, but if any provide not for his own and especially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than infidel. So the Bible puts all of the pressure, all of the authority and responsibility on the man to provide for the household. I'm not saying or taking to an extreme of the idea that women couldn't make money. Obviously they could have a side gig or maybe they sell things, you know, on Etsy or they have whatever that's going on. I'm not saying that it's like sinful or wicked, but that the man has the primary responsibility for providing for the wife. What do you think about that? primary responsibility I, um, and more seeing eye to eye with, um, like in my family growing up, I know my mother definitely worked, but my father would provide most of the money coming into the household and he would also provide money for her so that she could do her leisure fund, do her things, you know what I mean? So I do, um, kind of respect whenever a man can produce for his family in that sort of way. But I also do respect if a woman wants to go out and seek information and apply it to a job, you know what I mean? Well, you know, in my view is I'm a Christian, so I believe the Bible and the Bible brings up a lot of these passages that kind of talk about women's roles in life. So I want to get your thoughts on a few verses here. Okay. So before we move on, uh, could you provide me the context behind this one? Is this just like, it's just, it's just like by at least saying like stating like a factor is there like context behind it? Like did somebody do something? First Timothy five is in the pastoral epistles. These are instructions given to a pastor of the instructions he's supposed to get to his congregation. Chapter five specifically is about widows and how widows who end up don't have a man in their life that provide for them, then it's on the grandchildren or children or the other men in the family to basically step up and pay all the bills of that particular widow. That's the context. Now in this same chapter, it also brings up the idea of a woman is without a husband and it relates it to young women. So it's saying it's relating widows to young women and it gives this instruction. It says, I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak approachfully for some are already turned aside after Satan. So the Bible says that women are supposed to get married. They're supposed to guide the house and Titus chapter two, which is a similar context as instructions of a pastor where he's telling all the women, all the older women to teach the younger women to do certain things. It says that the age of women likewise that they be in behavior as become with holiness, not false accusers, not given too much wine, teachers of good things that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chase keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands that the word of God be not blasphemed. So I've showed you a handful of verses here, but it's, it's saying the exact same thing over and over that women are supposed to stay at home, keep the home, guide the home, that that's the responsibility. That's what God wants them to do. And I believe that it even from just a pure logic standpoint is the best outcome that you could possibly have. What do you think about these verses I showed you? Um, I think it's a fairly interesting, it's like kind of directing to the point like with what your point is saying. So like it is backed up with the verses here, but um, are you more in, are you in generally saying that women should stay home if there's like a child or just in general? Like whether there's a child or not. You know what I mean? Yeah. I believe that daughters should be raised in the home and they should be educated at home and then the only reason they leave their house is to be married under the husband. So like, I don't believe they should live on their own. I don't think they should be in a dorm. I don't think they should go out and have to get a career and get an apartment. I think they should basically go from dad, the dad's roof to the husband's roof. And once they're under the authority of their husband, that the husband pays all the bills and previously it was the dad that paid all the bills. If she became a widow, then it's like children, grandchildren, uncles and whatever the other men in the family responsible to pay our bills again. But that women should have no responsibility to pay bills at all. They should be simply prioritize it being home, raising children, doing all the things that their God given role is supposed to be. That's that's my viewpoint. Gotcha. And so, so you think that, so women should stay home regardless of whether they like, so do you have a daughter yourself? I have two daughters. Gotcha. And are they going to be like, they won't be attending university? They are not going to be attending a university as far as me paying for them or they're going. I mean, obviously when they become adults, I don't know what they're going to do, but I won't recommend them go to university. I wouldn't recommend or pay for the university. I would say that maybe in rare exception, if there was a singular class or field of study that they were interested in, that they could be supervised and maybe take those classes and still live at home or maybe do them online. I'm not opposed to that from an education perspective, but I'm not going to send them off to some distant school to live in a dormitory to try and get a job and try and get a career. I think that that's destroying our country and it's destroying the role that God has for women. Gotcha. You believe that your daughter is going to have like the full autonomy in the future to choose what she wants to do? Is your daughter under 18, if you don't mind me asking? I have very young daughters. I'm just saying everybody has free will, so you can't force someone to do anything, right? If she decides when she's an adult to make other decisions that are contrary to what I believe, she could do that. But obviously if she does what I teach her and she follows the lead of her husband, then I believe that she would never do that. Gotcha. Does she go to grade school? Yeah, my oldest daughter, she's homeschooled and she's in first grade. Okay, gotcha. And whenever she reaches the point of where she knows how to read perfectly fine, what is the point of her continuing school and graduating if she already has all the tools she needs to be like an at-home daughter, just providing for the family and then basically like just doing the will of God, you know what I mean? Representing him being by the book and yes. So I believe that women are responsible to teach their children the Bible, all of the Bible, they're responsible to teach them a high level of education and I believe that my wife is supposed to teach the sons who are going to then be prepared to go to college to get careers, to get jobs. Obviously I also take part in that responsibility in education as well, but I believe that women should study all kinds of different things that pertain to their function and role in life. Cooking, there's a lot of information about cooking, cleaning, about laundry, there's a lot of information about gardening, there's a lot of things about home ownership that are really important and these are a lot of fields of study that a lot of people take seriously and are careers for many people. And so I think that there's a lot of fields of study roles that women have that have been given to them by God for them to have infinite amount of research, education. I think we should all be self-learners. I think women should read lots of books and I want my wife to be as educated as possible because she's going to be teaching and training my children. And I would argue that my wife is very well educated, she in fact knows a lot of things that I don't know and she's smarter than me in a lot of areas, but I want that to be utilized for my children not going out and getting paid $50,000 or something because if I have to replace my wife's role, I have to get a personal chef, I have to get someone to clean all my laundry and clean my house and raise my children, I mean I'm going to be spending hundreds and thousands of dollars to get all of this outsourced whereas I can just have my wife do it for free and then I pay for all the bills. What do you think about that situation? I think about that situation, it's just, so you're saying that your wife follows this example as well, she stays home while you go out and work and provide for the family? Yeah, my wife makes $0 every year. Okay, gotcha. And so you say that the purpose for your daughter is going to be to graduate high school in order for her to have the education to provide for your future sons that are going to excel into college and have a job in the future, why would you limit your wife to an education of a high school whenever she can further her education that's going to benefit your future son? Well again, when we talk about college, most of the time someone's going to college to get a very specific education for a job, like let's say you're going to become an electrical engineer, you're going to learn about engineering, if you're going to become an architect, you learn about architecture, if you're going to be in computer science, you're going to learn about computer science. So I don't think that it's necessary for my wife to get a computer science degree when there's no reason to know if our children would even pick that as a career. Most education is kind of universal, even in the first two years of undergraduate degree. My wife is college educated and my wife did teach in the public school system, but I don't think that was necessary. I do believe that you can be more educated than people that go to college, even if you didn't go to college whatsoever. I think that most college is kind of a scam, and it's basically the government just wants to propagandize individuals in America, and that most of the college education that's happening here is just an extraction of wealth from youth, because many people are getting student loans, they're having to pay a lot of money through their parents in order to get this quote education, whereas you could learn all of this information without showing up at this building, and you could even get many high paying jobs without having a college degree. So I think that is kind of a false premise. It used to be that college was designated for lawyers and doctors, so specific degrees that needed a lot of extra pre-education before they entered into those fields. Whereas most jobs, whenever you get a job, you're not going to know anything. They're going to train you and teach you all of the things about that job, and your education here was going to be just kind of a basic core. Most people do look at college as simply just, hey, this person was capable of completing a four-year degree, they have responsibility, they have character, but that could be demonstrated in other ways. It doesn't have to be demonstrated by giving $100,000 to an institution that is, in my opinion, scamming students and basically ripping off the youth of our country. I mean, if you had $100,000 in your pocket as opposed to spending it on student loans, you could buy a house, you could invest in starting a business. There's a lot of other things you could do with that money, and I think the opportunity cost here is detrimental to students. Why would I want to burden a woman with all of the student loan debt when that degree may or may not have any impact on our future whatsoever? I mean, do you really think that someone has to go to college to be highly educated? No, definitely not. I know a couple people who didn't go to college and are very highly educated, but yeah, I have mixed feelings about the whole college is a scam thing because a lot of the times people can come here and get useless degrees, but a lot of the times people come here and get useful degrees. But if someone's offering a useless degree where it doesn't translate into a job, is that not somewhat of a scam? Yeah, but at the end of the day, people willingly come here and they choose to study certain degrees maybe because they like it, not necessarily to leave here with a six-figure job. If somebody's really passionate about a certain field and a certain subject, they come here and spend all the money to learn about it. They're being fulfilled with this information. Your life is receiving fulfillment. The fulfillment doesn't necessarily have to come from a high-paying job. What if you went to a car dealership and 50% of the cars worked perfectly fine, but another 50% did not drive off the lot and they would need additional parts in order to even be driven, and yet the dealership was advertising all the cars as fully functional and working. Would you say that was a scam? Yeah, I do, but I think it's a little bit different here because whenever you go to a car dealership and you get a car that's not functioning, it provides no value for you. But say you come to a university and want to study something that doesn't necessarily have the end point where the job gives you X amount of money, I think that the person is still being fulfilled with the information that they came here to receive. Because I don't know what your example of success is, but yeah, it's very nice to come here, get a degree, and then leave with a very high-paying job. But some people might not have that goal, you know what I mean? Some people are going to find this fulfillment and enjoyment in learning about the material that they're passionate about. Well my view of success, to answer that question, is not about carnal things, it's about spiritual things. So I think being saved, going to church, following God's commandments is going to be the measure of someone's success. I do believe that some of those commandments extend to our physical reality, so being able to provide for your spouse, raising children, and having them have character and integrity and loving the Lord is what really matters. So I wouldn't measure someone's success by their paycheck or the size of their house, or even the career that they choose. But I do think that if someone comes to this university, gets a four-year degree, and it does not translate into a career that they've been taken advantage of. Why do I think that? Because I think most students come to university under the premise or the idea that getting these degrees is going to help them further their career or their advancement in life. And I think that many of them don't understand the ramifications of their actions. I think many students are very ignorant of the fact that many, if not most of the degrees offered here are a scam in my opinion, and they do not translate well into the real world. I think there's a lot of jobs that do not need college, and I think there are some jobs you have to go to college. You want to be a doctor? You have to go to college. You want to be a lawyer? You have to go to law school. If you want to get a degree in accounting, you pretty much need to go through the college route. But there's a lot of degrees that are like business management, business majors, there's a lot of just history and anthropology and just all these different education-based degrees that people get, and then they don't realize, hey, I'm not going to get a job. This doesn't translate in the real world. And I think they're being taken advantage of by liberal and atheistic professors that don't care about their students getting a job. They just care about their own paycheck and just teaching their own philosophy and hearing themselves talk. And so I think it's just become kind of this cyclical nature of a scam. And I mean, look at this campus. This campus is giant. I mean, this campus is amazing. I mean, the buildings here are incredible. This is amazing. But for many people, this is going to be like the nicest form of their life. Like once they get out of here and they're no longer paying to be here, they're going to realize that reality is harsh, that the real world doesn't care about your feelings. The real world doesn't care about what degree you have. The real world doesn't care about like taking care of all these things for you. I mean, I'm sure you didn't do any of the work here. You're just getting to enjoy this beautiful place. But it's because you're paying for it, right? And you could have taken all that money and had invested it in a business for yourself, in a house for yourself, and you would have gotten a little enjoyment out of that. But why would the university want to tell you that if it would be a detriment to their building, to their structure, to their enrollment in the future, to their sports programs, to their basically way of life? I think that they have a vested interest to deceive students and to giving them tons and tons of money so their university becomes more and more powerful, whereas the graduates of that particular university are actually going to suffer greatly from not having realized that a lot of things that happened to them were a scam. What is your opinion on kind of my viewpoint here? I kind of see where your logic is coming from, so I can't really like hit on that one too much. But you were mentioning that like professors caring about their paycheck only, I might have to... I'm not saying all of them. No, right, right. And many of them or many of them do, many of them not like either or just like subjective at the end of the day, you know, they're obviously not going to just like spill their whole feelings on that one. But let's say there's a professor here who 100% of his graduating class in that particular field of study can't get a job and basically they're ruined from a perspective they spent all this money and they spent all this time and they can't get a job. Is that professor going to be held responsible for the fact that those students can't get a job? No. So it seems like there's not really much accountability towards these individuals and I think that that's perpetuating this cyclical nature of evil. I am not against university. I think university should exist, but I think the only career or the only degrees that should be offered should be based on careers. And it would almost be better if part of the compensation that the university got was based on the job that people got after graduating from the university. There's people that work as a recruiter and they actually get paid only for finding high qualified people to work for these companies. If part of your tuition was paid by the company that was going to hire you because you're so highly skilled, don't you think that would be maybe a stronger incentive on the university to highly educate you and do a good job with you? Yeah. But since there's no attachment to reality, there's no attachment to a direct job in many cases, it seems like the university can get away with taking your money, not necessarily teaching you a lot of skills and a lot of information, and they'll never be held responsible for doing that to you. Is that true? To an extent, yeah, because I feel like a lot of the responsibility comes from the student as well. Obviously, whenever we're thrown in here, we're fairly young, we don't know the most about life, like as our parents do or et cetera, but I do believe that not everybody who comes in here to learn, obviously their end goal is not a high paying job, so some people are willingly paying thousands of dollars knowing that they're not going to get a high paying job. I think that's totally fine, people can go and spend their money on vacations and a bunch of crap and they get a bunch of fulfillment in that, they're very happy, but what if somebody wants to come here, spend money on an education, they like learning about whatever it is, and although it's not a high paying job that they get from the degree that they're going to be graduating with, they're still being provided with the information that they chose to pay for. Well that just sounds like a fun vacation, right? I could just travel to China and learn about China because I find it interesting, but someone's got to pay for that, that doesn't necessarily benefit me in a career path, and I could come here and I'm sure there's lots of cool things to study. I could study all kinds of different foreign languages, I could probably study about history, I could study about science, but if that doesn't translate into my career, then you're going to have to ask the question, what's the point? So for me, if women are going to inevitably become a housewife, raise kids, stay home, not have a career, I think that you're, there's not a good reason for them to show up, get a liberal arts degree, pay a bunch of money to the state, and then basically not even have any benefit out of that. If they get a theater arts degree, and then they're going to stay home and raise children, then they basically got scammed out of potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars, where as if they had recognized that this is what the Bible's teaching and it's really the best future for them, they could have just gone from husband to, or from dad to husband, and they wouldn't have wasted a bunch of money. What do you think about that? I think waste could be thrown around fairly loosely, you know, like it might seem like a waste to you, but if somebody, like if somebody's enjoying receiving knowledge, I don't think it's a waste, you know? No, I, to clarify, I agree, like I'm not saying that it's a zero output, but perhaps it's just not necessarily that advantageous, it doesn't really give them that much benefit, it's a waste in the context of what their future career is, not necessarily they didn't enjoy those experiences, or I believe the Bible says in all labor there's profit, right? So you could still benefit from those experiences, but we're maximizing our opportunities, saying some opportunities are going to yield a higher outcome, why not just go ahead and do the maximum outcome, why not get the best outcome, why not do the most godly outcome, and so I think that women could come here, they could learn a lot, they could get a job, and that has value, but the value of them staying home raising children far outweighs that value, and additionally it's following God's clear instructions. I think that women in the workplace is causing the quality of work to diminish, I think it's increased adultery in the workplace, I think it's increased divorce in our society, and – Do you think adultery is mutual? In most cases, yeah, adultery has to be mutual, right? But I'm just saying that if I'm in the workplace, and I do software, and I only work on a team of men, I have zero temptation to commit adultery, whereas if 50% is women and 50% is men, a lot of times people form relationships and end up committing adultery because of just the sheer fact that they're in an environment surrounded by other women, and I think that men and women are attracted to each other, so they should be separated. I don't think that a married man should be hanging out with other women, because that's just a temptation that is too strong and too powerful, and we see people constantly falling in the workplace in America, having these adulterous relationships, and it's destroying families, it's destroying homes, it's causing divorce. Additionally, because women are in the workplace, we have a lower birth rate. Birth rates used to be about eight children per family in the 1800s, and over time it's gotten to a point where it's under two. Now as a labor force, if we were still having eight children per family unit, we would increase our population greatly. I think Elon Musk and other people have said, you know, we could be experiencing a population collapse if we don't start increasing our population numbers. Do you think that this is an actual legitimate concern? Do you think population collapse is something that would be a detriment to our society? No, definitely not. I think that us as the population of humans as a whole on Earth, we're kind of reaching carrying capacity, we're seeing a lot of detriment to the Earth happen because of the mass populations like in just everywhere, you know what I mean? We're literally reaching carrying capacity in the terms of we're using up all our resources faster than we can reproduce them, you know what I mean? So I don't think that that's a very valid argument. And in what you were saying with the adultery in the workplace, you were arguing that women being in the workforce increases adultery, but I think as a Christian man, you're responsible for fighting temptation. Unfortunately, nowadays in the world, sin is at the tip of our fingers. So I think that that's just another sin that you're gonna have to fight against as a holy man, you know what I mean? I'm a Christian guy, so I understand. Yeah, taking women away from the workplace will reduce the temptation and intrusive thoughts or whatever, but also if you as a man, being out here, it can increase the risk of temptation as well. You're seeing women all around campus, you know what I mean? You can easily choose to stay in the house, but you can't necessarily take away a variable whenever you can just control your own thoughts and follow the religion as it was intended. Sure, obviously going to work, there's always gonna be temptation, you can't remove it entirely. We talked about Christianity a little bit, and I wanna ask you a little bit different question than what we've been talking about. Gotcha. About Christianity, what do you think it takes to be saved? What do you think someone would have to do to go to heaven? I think you have to have faith, you have to fully believe in the book of the Bible. I think that you have to be asked for forgiveness and actually sincerely mean the forgiveness that you're asking for, and I think that you have to walk in the image of Christ. Do you think someone's saved by faith alone apart from works, or do you think it's kind of a combination? Could you elaborate? Sure. Do you think someone can believe in Jesus, put all their trust in his death, burn, and resurrection, but not follow any of his commandments and still go to heaven? No. Okay. Do you think someone can lose their salvation? Yes. Okay. So according to the Bible, the Bible says something completely different. It would actually say that your view of salvation would mean that you're not saved, because according to the Bible, salvation is a one-time decision, it's a free gift by faith alone that could never be lost. And salvation, you mean like entering the... Going to heaven. So according to the Bible, and the Bible's clear that we're sinners, we deserve hell, I'm sure you agree with that, right? Yes. Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried, rose again, and paid for all of our sins. Do you agree with that as well? 100%. Okay. So according to the Bible, it teaches there's one thing you have to do to be saved. I'm going to show you a verse here. Acts chapter 16, verse 30. The Bible says, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. So according to the Bible, there's only one thing you have to do to be saved, and it's just to believe on Jesus Christ. What do you think about this verse? I think it is too broad. I'm not necessarily a Bible expert, so... Just that one verse, does it sound like it says you have to do anything other than believe, or did it sound like it said just believe? It sounds like it said just believe. Okay. To believe in someone, the Bible classifies this as trust. So if you believe on Jesus Christ, it means that you're trusting him alone to save you. If I told you that I'm going to heaven, Juan, because I'm a good person, I go to church, I read the Bible, I follow the commandments, does that sound like I'm trusting in Jesus or myself? Depends. It depends on the person. I feel like if you're following the commandments because of Jesus and what he died for, then sure, I'd say you might be doing it for both yourself and Jesus. Okay, but if I think that me going to church and following the commandments is getting me to heaven, is that what Jesus did or what I'm doing? It's what you're doing. So am I trusting him or me? If you're going to church, I would hope that you're trusting God. Sure, but if I think what's getting me in there is my works and my efforts and what I've done, is that really a trust 100% in what Jesus did or is it still me relying upon myself? What would you say trusting 100% of what Jesus did, just like in your mind? So if I said I'm going to heaven because Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose again, I put all my faith in him, that's me acknowledging that all of my trust is what he did. If I say it's what I do, then it's acknowledging that my faith is also in me. Do you kind of see how that's different? Yes, I do see. And what are your thoughts on repentance? So the word repent means to change your mind. So if someone believes that going to heaven is through Allah, Buddha or a Hindu God, they would have to change their mind and believe in Jesus Christ. Additionally, if someone thinks that going to heaven is them going to church, reading the Bible, being faithful, repenting of their sins, then they have to change what they believe and they have to believe in Jesus Christ, not themselves. The Jews and the Pharisees were justifying themselves. They thought they were going to heaven because they kept the law or they were righteous. But according to the Bible, the only one that's righteous is Jesus. Therefore our salvation is only in what he did. John 3.16 even says this, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but everlasting life. So you can't trust in yourself, you have to trust in what Jesus did. This is what it would mean to be faith alone in Jesus Christ. When it comes to someone saying faith alone, what does that sound like it means to you? Faith alone is just having full belief in God. Okay, so if I said I'm going to go to heaven because I believe in Jesus Christ but I'm never going to do anything for him, is that faith alone? Whenever you're talking about faith, what are you referring to? A full trust that his death, birth, and resurrection paid all of my sins. So you believe that if you simply believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, you go to heaven? Not acknowledging that fact but trusting that fact, okay? So there's two different things, right? I can see an airplane at the airport and I can see it as a pilot and I can believe they're real. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go where that plane's flying. In order to go where that plane's flying, I have to get on the plane. That evidence is that my trust is in the pilot to take me wherever we're going, okay? But if I try to fly the plane, I don't really believe in that pilot. I'm not trusting in that pilot. I'm trusting in myself to get to the destination. So there's three different things we discussed here, right? It's not acknowledging the pilot's real. It's not acknowledging the plane is real. It's getting on the plane, right? So that's the trust part. But it's also not flying the plane because then that's also me not believing in the pilot. That's me trusting in myself. So the same with Jesus Christ. It's not acknowledging that Jesus is real, that he existed, or certain facts about him. It's trusting in him. But it's also not me doing my part because then I'm no longer letting him take me to heaven. I'm trusting what I do and I'm trying to proverbially fly the plane. Do you kind of see what I'm saying? Yes. So could you mold this metaphor, this analogy, more into like the context of God? So me trusting God to go to heaven, like me trusting God in order for me to go to heaven, what would that look like? So based on what you told me earlier, you kind of thought it was a combination of faith and works. So what this looks like is it would be like if you put one foot on the plane and one foot on the tarmac and you're hoping that somehow you're going to get there by walking and flying on the plane. This can't happen. You have to pick. You either have to walk there by yourself or you have to get on the plane and allow the pilot to fly you. So you can be a good passenger on the plane. You can be a bad passenger. You can sleep on the plane. You could read on the plane, right? You have free will inside that plane and a vehicle to decide how you're going to behave on that plane. But once the door's shut, he's going to take you where he wants you to go. So what the Bible teaches is once you're saved, you're always saved. Now should you be a good Christian? Should you read the Bible? Should you be faithful? Absolutely. But even if you were a bad Christian, if you're a bad son of God, the Bible says you're always his son. It says, but as many as received him, to them gave you power to become the sons of God, even though they don't believe on his name. So my parents are my parents forever. My mom and dad are my mom and dad forever. My mom is going to be my mom even though she's dead forever. When I die, she's my mom forever. When I lived with them, it was important for me to follow their rules, but not to be their son. The same's with God. If I believe in Jesus Christ, I become his son. And no matter how good or bad a person I am, I'm always his son. Now if I disobeyed my parents, they would punish me. They would cause me to, you know, they'd be disappointed, talk to me about it, right? But I would still be their son. Same with God. If I lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, do wicked things, maybe I'm just lazy. God will punish me on earth. I can go to jail, get the death penalty, I could lose my job, I could lose my family, I could lose my health. But I would never go to hell because Jesus Christ already died on the cross, was buried and rose again, paid all of my sins, and since I put my trust in him, he gave me the gift of eternal life. Can't lose that. It's once I'm saved, I'm always saved. But if I think I can lose it, it evidences the fact that my faith is not only in Jesus, my faith is also in myself, and as a result of that I would not be saved yet because I've never repented, I've never put 100% faith in what Jesus Christ did, and I've never allowed him to save me, I'm still trying to save myself, okay? So what I'm showing you here is that once someone has trusted Christ, they can't lose it. Does it make sense that it would be important to follow God's commandments, but that it has no impact on whether or not you're saved? Could you repeat that? I kind of got distracted. No problem. So if someone believes in Jesus, the Bible says they become his son, okay, do you see how following the commandments then couldn't change the fact that they were God's son? Gotcha, yes. So believing in Jesus, trusting in Jesus, grants you a passageway to heaven, correct? So what is the point of fighting temptation whenever you can just fall into temptation and still make it? Would you like to go to jail, lose your health, or have bad things happen to you in this life? No. So then the Bible's teaching you should not sin, you should follow God's commandments so that bad things won't happen to you. Is that not still important? Yes, 100%, but okay, so I don't live this lifestyle, so I'm just saying this is an example. So say I trust in God, but I'm still going to willingly commit adultery and do all of these sinful things because I know I'm still going to be granted to heaven. What is the point of me swaying away from these sin whenever I know I can just make it directly to heaven? Okay, sure. So if you committed a horrible sin, you stole something really of value, okay? Would your mom still be your mom? Yes. Does the fact that you could never lose or change the fact that your mom's your mom motivate you to do bad things? Could you repeat the question? The fact that you can't change who your mom is, does that motivate you to do bad things? No. So why would it motivate me, since the fact that I can't change the fact that God's my father, to do bad things? If God's going to punish me, if God's going to make sure I get a punishment and consequence on this earth for doing bad things, why would I be motivated to do that just because I'm going to heaven? Gotcha. And do you believe that you've been punished for every single sin you've committed here on earth? No, God has mercy, so the Bible teaches that if I commit a sin, I should pray and ask God to be merciful to me, and I would hope that he wouldn't punish me according to my sins, but sometimes I may still get that punishment because God thinks that it's necessary that I still receive that kind of a punishment. So there is an importance to pray, go to church, read the Bible, and ask for and seek for God's mercy on a daily basis, but not to go to heaven. That's so that I can have a good relationship with him, that's so that I can be pleasing on this earth, and I can fulfill my ultimate goal on this earth of his will in my life. So it's important to do those things. What is the point of reaching this goal if I fully trust in God and know I'm going to go to heaven? So the Bible teaches that if you do right, you follow his commandments, you'll be blessed in this life, and you'll get rewards in heaven. So in the same way that you go to your job and you follow the rules of your employer so that you'll get a good paycheck, you get bonuses, you're getting rewarded for your work. So the same is with God. Why would I not want to work for God if I'm going to get rewarded in heaven? So I've already settled on going to heaven, but then I get to decide if I want to be cursed in this life or blessed in this life, and if I want rewards in heaven or if I want no rewards in heaven. So there's a motivation there also to be loving towards God, like to say thank you for having saved me, thank you for giving me this opportunity to go to heaven. Out of appreciation, I want to. Here's another reason. I believe that people that believe like you, or even worse, are going to go to hell. If I truly believe that and I have any love towards you, then I would want to talk to you and try to tell you how to be saved so that you wouldn't go to hell. So out of a love for other people, out of a love of God, out of appreciation of what He's done, and out of the desire to earn rewards, I'm highly motivated to follow God's commandments. But it has zero impact on my belief or understanding that I'm going to heaven. I already know I'm going to heaven. People that are using this effort and energy of I'm following the rules to get to heaven won't make it because they haven't accepted the free gift that God is offering to them. I want to show you a verse on that. The Bible says, I know it's getting kind of late, but the Bible says in Romans chapter 6 verse 23, for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life to Jesus Christ our Lord. So I said, Juan, I'm going to give you this book as a free gift for $100 today. Is that a free gift? No. If I said I'll give it to you for 50 bucks and I'll pay 50, is that a gift? No. If I said you have to wash my car first, is that a gift? No. So in order for it to be a gift, it pretty much has to be free. Would you agree? Yes. The Bible even describes salvation as a free gift. It says the righteousness of one, the free gift, came upon all men under the justification of life. So only one was righteous, that was Jesus. And because of his righteousness, he paid 100% of our sins, and we can have the free gift given to us. If God says, Juan, I'm going to give you eternal life, but you've got to go to church, read the Bible, follow my commandments, and repent of your sins daily, is that a free gift? Not necessarily, no. It's not. So according to the Bible, it's not required for salvation. It's a different discussion. Just like the fact that I can't change who my parents are, I still should follow their rules. Just because I can't ever be changing who they are, it doesn't make me say I just want to live a bad life. And Juan, if I lived with your parents, I don't know if they're alive today, but if I went to their house and I started following all their rules, and I said, you need to start calling me son because I'm following your rules, is that how that works? No. So I can't do the same with God. I can't start going to church and following his commandments and expecting to be a son or be a child of God or be saved, because that's not how it works. It's by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ with 100% of your faith in him alone that would save you. Do you see how what I'm saying is different than what you were saying earlier? Yes. Based on what I'm showing you, would you say you still think that salvation is a process, something that can be lost, that is a combination of faith and works, or would you say you actually now see what I'm saying and have changed your mind? Not necessarily changed my mind, but I definitely see where you're coming from. So you understand my viewpoint, but do you still disagree with my viewpoint? Yes. Okay, I want to show you one more verse on this, all right? The Bible says, for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. So the Bible just plainly states that salvation is not of works whatsoever. If it were, I could brag to you, Juan. I could say I'm going to heaven because I go to church or read the Bible, I'm a good person, but that's me trusting in my works. To be saved, you have to trust in God's grace. Grace is unmerited favor. It means you don't deserve heaven, and I don't, I deserve hell, but because of God's grace, I can go to heaven, and it says very clearly, I'm saved through faith, and it's not of myself, it's a gift, it's not of works, it could not be clearer, that what I'm saying is what the Bible is clearly saying. Do you believe the Bible? Yes. What is your rebuttal to the, could you pull up scripture saying, talking to and referring to repentance in order to receive forgiveness by God to grant you eternal life in heaven? So the word repent is used a lot of times in the Bible. Mark chapter one, just a quote for you, Jesus Christ said, repent ye and believe the gospel. So it's very clearly in that context talking about change your mind and believe the gospel. There's a place in Acts chapter number 19 when it talks about John the Baptist and what he was preaching, and it helps you define what repentance is, okay? So it says here in Acts chapter number 19, verse number four, then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance. So he's saying what repentance was, saying unto the people that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus. So they're saying, what was the baptism of repentance? What was the repentance that John the Baptist was actually preaching? It was preaching to believe on Jesus Christ. Now of course, some people will twist what the Bible says on these issues and they'll say you have to repent of your sins to be saved. That phrase is never found in the Bible one time, and additionally, it is important to turn from sin. It's important to change your life, and there's lessons on that in the Bible, but every time the Bible's talking about salvation, it's always believe, believe, believe, believe, faith alone, faith alone. It's not of works. I mean, the apostle Paul says very clearly in Romans chapter number three and verse 28, therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. He gives an example in the next chapter of someone in an extreme scenario. It says, now to him that worketh not, meaning, I'm sorry, the next verse, but to him that worketh not, meaning he never did any works, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is kind of a righteousness, even as David also described the blessings of the man in whom God imputed righteousness without works. So according to the Bible, God will save someone with absolutely zero works if they trusted in him. Now they have a horrible life here on earth, and they would have no rewards in heaven, but they would definitely be in heaven because they had the faith in Jesus Christ. Do you see what I'm saying is being consistent? Yes. Let me show you another example in Matthew chapter number five of two different people. One's following God's commandments, and one's breaking God's commandments, okay? And it talks about where they're going to go when they die, all right? Matthew chapter five, verse 19, whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so. So someone's breaking the commandments, teaching people to break the commandments. Notice what it says. He shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. So one guy breaks the commandments and teaches people to break the commandments. Another guy keeps the commandments and teaches people to keep the commandments. Notice both of them went to heaven. Both are in the kingdom of heaven. One's the least. One's the greatest. So you say, what's the motivating factor to follow the commandments and keep God's law and teach people to do so? So I could be called great in heaven, not be one of the least in heaven. But notice it doesn't say that one went to hell and one went to heaven. It's that they both went to heaven because the context is two people that believe in Jesus Christ. Do you see that? I do see that. Based on the verses I've shown you, would you say, you know what, I still don't agree. I think that it's faith plus our effort, work, repentance, whatever you want to say. Or do you think I'm actually right here and that it's faith alone now? I think that my standpoint is I think that you've prompted me to further my research and to open my mind and to do my own research before I can come to a conclusion. I definitely understand and see where you're coming from based on the verses, but we've gone through five, six verses that compile to a combination of probably 30 words. So I'd definitely like to do more research and engulf the entire book so that I can make my own consensus on what I think. Do you think that there's contradictions in the Bible? I'm not too sure. I believe there's zero, and if I can show you five clear verses that all say the exact same thing, I would never negate that truth. I would never try to find some other passage that would then try to some way change my mind. I don't think you have to read the whole Bible to get saved. I think that that's a faulty premise. It would take about 90 hours or, depending on your reading speed, 70 to 90 hours to read the entire scripture. I think that's unreasonable to put that expectation on every person to be saved. I believe the gospel could be presented in five to 10 minutes and someone could understand what I'm saying, fully change their mind, and put 100% faith in Christ and be saved in that moment. The Bible makes it clear that we're saved by faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Someone doesn't even have to read the Bible. They could have someone tell them and all they have to do is hear it. And if they decide to put their faith in what they've heard, the gospel message, the truths of God's word, they could be saved in that moment. So of course I want you to do your own research, but I just want to make it clear, I want to understand today, would you say you still have hesitation or do you believe what I showed you today? Based on the verses, I am following what you're saying, like I said. Not necessarily saying that there's contradictions in the Bible, but there's definitely different ways to interpret different things. So I would just like to give myself time to interpret the verses the way that my spirit is allowing me to interpret them. Do you speak English? I do speak English. Did you feel like you needed an interpreter when I read these verses to you or do you think you understood them? Yeah, but there's like different, I don't understand the context of necessarily everything, you know what I mean? It would be nice to read the before and after of the verses, you know what I mean? So I can make a guess, so I can make an educated consensus, you know? I'm not going to have somebody read me one part of the fine print, I want to read the whole thing so I can just be fully convinced, you know what I mean? Sure, context is important, but I know for a fact if you read any verses that I read to you in context today, it'll say the exact same thing that I said for you. So why don't you at least consider, we have a card. Here's some cards from our church. One's the Bible Way to Heaven. Why don't you watch it again, you can watch all the verses. This actually has pretty much all the verses I showed you today. It has a sample prayer. Here's the thing. Juan, if you end up do changing your mind, you say, you know what? I do believe that the Bible is saying it's faith alone and I have changed my mind, then you would need to one time pray, tell God that you believe that in your heart and you could know that you're saved for sure. If you did change your mind, I would have prayed with you today, but since, you know, you say you're still kind of hesitant, I'd like for you to actually truly believe that because it's not saying a prayer that saves you, it's believing in your heart. So if I, one, trust in God, right, if I, one, trust in God, and also live my life trying to walk in His image, what contrary does that do for me and you on our end point to Heaven other than me solely believing that I just have to trust in Him, you know what I mean? Sure. If I said, hey, let's go to Australia, and you said, okay, and I said, hey, there's only one way for us to get to Australia, we have to get on this plane, this is the only plane that's going, and you say, no, I'm good, I'm going to swim, are we both going to get there? Depends if I'm a good swimmer or not. Yeah, you can't swim that far. So that's what I'm telling you today is that you're taking a different mode of transportation and your mode of transportation is insufficient. You're still holding on to yourself a little bit and you have to put 100% faith in Jesus, get all the way on the plane, and allow Him to take you to Heaven. That's why I'm saying that what you believe is not good in that context. There's nothing wrong with trusting in God, there's nothing wrong with following His commandments, but we have to have the right belief for faith to be saved, and I believe that you're not fully embracing. You admitted to me that you don't really agree with me fully yet, and prior to you didn't. So here's the thing, you have to agree with what the Bible says to be saved, on salvation specifically, and that is faith alone in Jesus Christ. So that's what I want you to do is I want you to change your mind and put 100% faith that it's faith alone in Christ that saves you, not any works whatsoever. Does that kind of make sense? It makes sense. Okay. Well thanks so much for talking with me. We talked a lot of subjects today. If you want another water, why don't you grab one, alright? Thanks so much. Thanks so much, Juan. Alright, you all take care.