(Disclaimer: This transcript is auto-generated and may contain mistakes.)

Hey everybody, it's Pastor Jonathan Jolie from Steadfast Baptist Church and Pure Words Baptist Church. I want to make a video addressing some comments made by Manley Perry of Old Path Baptist Church. Now, I had pointed out a few weeks ago the fact that this guy has been preaching a lot of false doctrine and a lot of heresy, and I gave very specific examples to what he was saying. I made video clips of it. He's been gaslighting his congregation and trying to downplay or manipulate them, and try to deflect and do a lot of damage control from some of the statements that he's made, but it's crystal clear this guy's been preaching a lot of false doctrine. In an effort to try and discredit me, now he's just making bold-faced lies. He even went so far as to say that I'm teaching the most blasphemous thing he's ever heard a Baptist preacher say, and I'm going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that that's not true. I'm going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Manley Perry is lying, and that he's been manipulating and gaslighting his congregation to a point where it's almost unbelievable how anybody in his church can honestly still believe anything that's coming out of his mouth. He's lying to their face, and they just don't even realize it. I mean, they're yelling amen. They're saying all kinds of stuff, but I want the evidence to speak for itself here, and I'm going to play a lot of clips here, and I'm going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Manley Perry is bold-faced lying, and now he's teaching what actually is blasphemy and a false doctrine. So let me tee up a clip here. This was preached at his church, and I believe the way the date is structured here, they did the actual day, month, year, so it's actually on November 8th. I believe it was when this clip was probably preached that day or sometime around there, but this is a recent upload from Manley Perry, and let's listen to a little bit of the context of what he's saying, but this is where he's preaching against me specifically by name. James 2.26. I recently heard something super heretical about this matter of Jesus suffering in hell. Super heretical. One of the most blasphemous things I believe I've ever heard a Baptist preacher say. Pastor Shelley taught that the only way for Jesus to be dead was if he went to hell and suffered in hell. See, that's the only way Jesus, Jesus wasn't dead unless he went to hell and suffered in hell. Time stamp, 6 minutes and 12 seconds of a clip called Jesus Suffered in Hell, Pure Words Baptist Church. I'm telling you to say Jesus was only dead if he suffered in hell is blasphemous, and I explain why. Look at James 2.26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. It says the body without the spirit is dead. So when did Jesus die? Did he die when he went to hell? No, he died when his body was without his spirit. He died when he gave up his spirit. That's when Jesus died. Guess what had happened? When he gave up the ghost. John 19.30. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, it is finished, and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost. That's when Jesus died. Jesus didn't die in hell. It's blasphemous. Jesus died on the cross when he gave up the ghost. He said that Jesus was only dead if he suffered in hell. So guess what? The logical conclusion to that. So I played a long portion of this context, and you can keep listening to it. He's then immediately after this going to go in and falsely accuse me of believing what's called the swoon theory. The swoon theory is some stupid idea that Jesus didn't really die. He was just kind of like, you know, not really there cognitively. And he kind of went to hell, but he didn't really die, and then he came back to life. This is like an atheist interpretation or something to try and discredit the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. No one, I've never heard anybody ever teach this. Of course, I don't believe that. Jesus physically died, and he went to hell, which represents death, because if someone has a state of being, that they're in hell. Now, I referenced a clip in which I preached this, and I'll play the clip just so you have the context of what he was preaching against specifically. But he made it clear that he said that no one, or he said that Jesus did not die by going to hell. He did not die in a spiritual sense whatsoever. It was solely a physical death. Well, let me play this clip that he kind of referenced, and then I'm going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Manly Perry is lying about the fact that I'm the only person he's ever heard this from, or this is such a blasphemous statement that only I'm teaching, or some nonsense that he's trying to allude to and try to convince his congregation of. But let me play this clip quickly, and then we'll continue down this downward spiral of Manly Perry's mind. What we owed, he paid what we deserve, what we've earned. Now, it says in Revelation 1, verse 18, it says this, Now, here's the thing. Let's say that Jesus Christ was in hell, but not suffering. Is he dead? No. Because look at Revelation 14, verse 10. Is he not there with all those being tormented? Aren't they in the presence of the Lamb? Are you going to say that he's dead then? No, because he's not experiencing the suffering of hell. If you're not experiencing the suffering of hell, then you're not dead. But he says, I was dead. What does it mean to be dead? To be in hell. So the only way for that to be true is if he went to hell and he was suffering in hell, because he's going to be in hell and not suffering. Because the Bible says, can I dig down to hell? Behold, thou art there. Is God dead there? No. But for some miracle, by some happenstance, God was manifest in the flesh. By some miracle, the Lord Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, died. And by some miracle, he went to hell for us and experienced the affliction and the pains of hell. But he didn't stay there. He was loosed from that pain. And God the Father raised him from the dead. So here's that clip. He referenced the six minute mark, 12 second. And where I clearly teach that Jesus Christ not only died on the cross physically, but also while his body was buried in the tomb, his soul descended down into hell. And the Bible clearly states this. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ was dead. The reference that I used was Revelation 1 18, where it says, I am he that liveth and was dead. And behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. Have the keys of hell and of death. It's a very famous verse. And it's making it clear that there was a state in which Jesus Christ was dead. There was a time period in which Jesus was dead. And we all know that to be the three days in which he was buried. His body was physically buried. It wasn't just simply a physical death. It was more than that. It was also the status of being dead, which meant he was in hell. And I contrasted that with Revelation 14 10, which talks about how people that are in hell are going to be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the presence of the lamb. And while Jesus Christ is, you know, there in their presence, you know, it's not that he's dead at that point in time. He was dead in Acts chapter number two, when the Bible references the fact that his soul is not left in hell. And the Bible makes it clear that he was loose from the pains of death in Acts chapter number two, verse 24, whom God had raised up, having loosed the pains of death because it was not possible that he should be holding of it. Now, he was loosed from the pains of death at the resurrection, not at the moment that his spirit left his body on the cross. That would ultimately make it where Jesus didn't really die in the sense of being dead. Yeah, obviously he would have died physically when he had the separation. But that's why the Bible says whosoever liveth and believeth me shall never die, because a saved believer will never experience the state of death because he's really just asleep in Jesus. He's alive in heaven, whereas Jesus Christ was not asleep simply. And it's not that he was alive in heaven or somewhere else. The Bible makes it clear he's in hell, which is the state of being dead. And he was suffering the pains of that death or the pains of hell. And he was loosed when he was risen again from the dead. If we look at the full context of this passage, later it says he's seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul is not left in hell, neither is flesh to eat corruption. Why would I have to emphasize the fact that it was not left if he's just doing his thing? He's just doing whatever he wants. The reason why he wasn't left is because God the Father raised him from the dead. But he needed to be raised from the dead. He needed to be taken out of hell. And that's the whole emphasis of this passage, that's the whole emphasis of this chapter. You have other clear verses like Jonah chapter 2, which talks about him crying out of the belly of hell. And you have other clear scripture that makes it clear that he was suffering affliction. In Acts chapter 16 and Acts chapter 18 the Bible references Jesus Christ being in affliction and being in hell. So there's lots of clear verses in scripture. But the point of this video is not to just prove this doctrine. I just want to focus on the fact that he's claiming that I'm the only person that taught this. I'm the only person that taught this blasphemous idea that Jesus died in hell and it wasn't just a physical death. It was more than that. It was a spiritual death. And that's the only time he's ever heard a Baptist preacher say this. Well that's a lie. And here's the thing. Let's show the evidence. Pastor Jimenez has also taught this. And this was in 2016. I have the clip down here. November 3rd, 2016 Pastor Jimenez, Jesus went to hell. Let's see what he said regarding this doctrine. And here's what's interesting. If I have to die and go to hell to pay for my sins, if I choose to reject Christ, then how is it that Jesus would pay for my sins without going to hell himself? The punishment for my sins is not a physical death. I mean if all Jesus did was die physically, then he didn't do it, he didn't take my punishment because look, we're all going to die. Even sane people die. What he saved me from was hell. So guess what? He went to hell. And the Bible teaches that he was in hell. And he suffered the punishment for your sins. And we'll talk about that another day because I don't have time to develop that. So we have Pastor Jimenez clearly teaching in this clip that Jesus Christ not only went to hell, but that he suffered in hell. And not only was it that he died physically, he died spiritually. He died in hell. So is Manly Perry going to condemn Pastor Jimenez? Had he never heard this clip before? Because if he's going to be consistent in his theology, he has to also condemn Pastor Jimenez who taught this in 2016, whom Manly Perry looked up to, went and visited his church before he started his church. But not only Pastor Jimenez, how about Pastor Anderson? Pastor Anderson has also taught this exact same thing. Here's another clip from November 4th, 2016. Let's see what Pastor Anderson has to say about Jesus. Otherwise, what's the point? You know what he's doing? He's paying the price for our sin. See, the price for our sin is to go to hell. I mean, look, if an unsaved person doesn't have Jesus, what price are they going to pay? They're going to hell. So how could Jesus pay for that with just a physical beating and just a physical death? He had to die physically, but he ought to also face a spiritual death. He had to face both. Physical death, spiritual death, he paid everything. That makes sense. He rose again from the dead. But let me prove it to you further. Revelation chapter 1 verse 18, Jesus said, I am he that liveth and was dead. Now, when was he dead? For those three days. And behold, I'm alive forevermore. Amen. And have the keys of hell and of death. Look at chapter 2 verse 8. And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write, these things saith the first and the last, which was dead and is alive. So the Bible is real clear. Jesus didn't just die physically. Jesus was dead. There was a time when Jesus was dead. But now he's alive and he lives forever to die no more. But he was dead for three days and three nights. That's important. OK, with that in mind, so again, we have another clip. Pastor Menes make or Pastor Anderson, I'm sorry, also making it abundantly clear that Jesus Christ did not just physically die. He also went to hell. He paid for our sins. And that was the death that he experienced when he had the state of being of death, was being in hell and suffering. This is in 2016. So we have Pastor Menes teaching that doctrine exactly like I did. We have Pastor Anderson teaching this doctrine in 2016 exactly like I did. So perhaps you could give mainly Perry the bit of the doubt and say, well, maybe he's ignorant of the fact that they also taught that. I don't believe that for one second, but let's just give him the bit of the doubt. Let's find another clip. Pastor Tommy McMurtry, Pastor Tommy McMurtry also preached a sermon on did Jesus go to hell? Let's see what he taught. It's not just physical death, but it's talking about spiritual death, death in hell. We all say that we all teach that. And Jesus, he died for us, so we wouldn't have to. But wait a minute. Don't we die, too? We all die physically. We all are gonna die of physical death. But if we're saved, we will never die spiritual death. We will never taste of death. We will never taste of hell. We will not spend one second in hell. We will not. The penalty of sin is death. Did Jesus not pay that penalty for us? Did he not die for us? He tasted of death for us, so we wouldn't have to. And so, you know, if Christ doesn't return soon, we all will taste of death physically. But we will never taste of it spiritually. There's a physical death and there's a spiritual death. Jesus experienced both for us. And so, in Hebrews 2-9, it says, But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he, by the grace of God, should taste death for every man, because it became him for whom are all things and by whom are all things, and bringing many sons unto glory to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. He did it through sufferings. If Jesus suffered, he did suffer on the cross. I wouldn't take anything away from that. But listen, he suffered death. He suffered in death. All others who are lost and do not receive Christ, they suffer death, and they suffer in death. They suffer in a literal place called hell, and that is where the Bible says Jesus went. Jesus had to do that. Why? Because he is tasting of death for every man. And that's not just physical death. Look what it says in John 8-51, He shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead, and the prophets are dead? Who makest thou thyself? Now wait a minute. If Jesus says, If you'll keep my sayings, you'll never see death, then shouldn't that mean we'll never die? Well, what's that talking about? Because Christians die, don't we? Physically, but spiritually, we never die. The Bible teaches we go to sleep. Why do we go to sleep? Because, I was talking about this in the nursing home today, you know, my kids, they've been out cold before, where they kind of looked dead. But you know what? They weren't dead. Proof of it was they woke up later, didn't they? They got up. And you know what? One of these days, our body is going to die, and it's going to lay down, and it's going to get buried in the ground, but it's going to wake up eventually, isn't it? It's going to wake up at the return of Christ. We're just asleep. Our body is asleep. It will wake up one of these days because we've been saved. And so we're never going to see death. I will never spend one second in hell. And Matthew 22 verse 31 says, But it's touching the resurrection of the dead. Have you not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And where am I going with that? Remember what the Jews just said to Jesus? Abraham is dead. The prophets are dead. But Jesus said, I'm not the God of the dead, but of the living. Now, where was Abraham's body during that time? It was in a grave. Where were the prophets' bodies during that time? It was in a grave. But Jesus said, they're not dead. They're living. And I don't want to get ahead of myself, but people try to say, oh, there was this place of the dead that was good. It was paradise in the heart. No, they're living. They were living. They were with God. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And listen, even though saved people's bodies die, we never die spiritually because Jesus did that for us. He tasted of death for us. The difference between the death of a saved person and a lost person is huge. The lost people go to hell. And Jesus did that for us, and it will never happen. Jesus tasted of death, and the Bible says we will never taste of death. Now, I played a lot of that clip. And really, great preaching. I agree with it. I think that he's doing an excellent job of making it clear what these verses are saying. It's exactly what I've been teaching. And this was in 2017. So we have two clips from Pastor Menes and Pastor Anderson in 2016 preaching that Jesus didn't just die physically, but he also went to hell and experienced a spiritual death. We have Tommy McMurtry preaching in October 15 of 2017. The exact same thing that I taught, and I will continue to teach. Now, you can say, well, I guess Pastor Manley Perry is ignorant of these clips, or maybe he never heard these clips before. But here's where it gets weird, my friend. Here's where you can just prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Manley Perry is lying through his teeth. Let's just scroll down and look at the comments of this video. Oh, look at this. The top comment on this video is Manley Perry's channel saying, Amen. Learn some new things. Great job. Praise God. So we literally have Manley Perry's YouTube channel commenting on this video saying that they enjoyed the sermon. Now, how is it that Manley Perry can come on this channel, come on this video, hear, quote unquote, the most blasphemous thing that he's ever heard a Baptist preacher say, and then say amen to the sermon? Because that's what he's claiming. He's claiming that he heard the most blasphemous things ever heard by me saying that Jesus not only died physically, but also went to hell and he had the state of being dead. This is this is bizarre, folks. And, you know, I've tried to think about this. I thought, well, maybe he could wiggle out of this claim. Well, someone else had my YouTube channel and they they made this comment or whatever. But look, even if you click on it, you click on the link and you go over here. It's his channel. This is his comment. I didn't copy and paste this. This is a live session. This is the top comment on his video. This was made three years ago and he's supposed to convince his congregation he's never heard anybody say this. But let's just say somehow this wasn't him or whatever. I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's lying because you know why? Because he literally preached this. He literally preached exactly what he condemned me for preaching. And it's a sermon called Genesis 22, part one of two. The Picture of Jesus in Hell, March 12th, 2017, on his own channel. Now, I'm going to play clips from this and I'm going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's boldface lying. Look at let's listen to some of this. And I have to speed it up a hair because he talks really slow here. Look, that's a short passage of scripture. What is that? Like, let me see. Let me just look at me. See if I can count how many passages that is. One through 14. OK, so in 14 verses, God mentions burnt offering six times. He mentions fire twice. Do you think, do you reckon God's trying to show us something here? Do you reckon he's trying to point out something to us here? I believe he is. I believe there's a theme here that God wants us to see. I think God's trying to tell us something. You say, Brother Manley, OK, you've made your point. What is it? What is God trying to show us here? I believe it's the fact that Isaac was to be a burnt offering. God told him to be a burnt offering is a picture of the fact that Jesus was a burnt offering. The fact that Isaac was to be a burnt offering pictures the fact or demonstrates the fact that Jesus was a burnt offering. Now, what I mean by that is Jesus Christ actually descended into hell. He went to hell to pay for our sins. Now, I don't understand why Christians have such a hard time with this. Just last week, a brother of mine was telling me that we were being attacked because we believe this or criticize or scrutinize by another pastor for believing this. But I mean, how much clearer can it get? We're going to look at the passage of scripture that show this and teach this. But the shame of it is it's so clear that Catholics and Protestants can figure it out, but many Baptists can't. Now, how ironic are these comments? He's saying that it's so clear and he's being attacked for believing this, but he's literally flipped the tables. He's attacking me for believing this. He's attacking everyone who believes this. This is bizarre, folks. He literally was teaching that Jesus suffered in hell and he's supposedly recanted. But it gets worse, my friend. And I'm going to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's boldfaced lying. Let's listen a little bit more of this clip. Now, when it's clear enough for a bunch of unsaved heretics to see it, don't you reckon some saved Baptists ought to be able to see it? I agree. How come unsaved heretics can understand this doctrine? But saved, supposed saved Baptist pastors cannot understand this. Now, let's go a little bit further in this because he just teaches this beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I agree with virtually everything that he's saying in this latter portion of this clip of this sermon that Jesus, you know, did go to hell and he suffered. And I mean, it's basically verbatim what all these other guys are saying. The reason why God wouldn't want to be wrong. But what would be wrong with him boiling it? OK, the fact the thing is, Jesus, God is specifically trying to again paint a picture here. The Passover lamb was supposed to be roast with fire to picture what Jesus would one day do for us. One day Jesus would be roasted with fire in hell. One day Jesus would suffer in hell for the sins of the world. Now, he's recently taught that's not true. He's contradicting himself and he's claiming that he's changed his mind. But let's just keep going because he's telling he's telling his courage that he has heard the most blasphemous thing he's ever heard by a Baptist preacher saying that the only way for Jesus to be dead is if he went to hell. Let's keep listening to this sermon. It's not complicated stuff here. And if you believe the King James Bible, my King James Bible says hell. It doesn't say Hades. It doesn't say Gehenna or it doesn't say anything else. It says hell. Now Gehenna, you know, they try to say is a lake of fire. But, you know, my King James Bible says hell. So he's saying it says hell. That's what he means. He believes it. He preaches, you know, a little bit about Abraham's bosom and shows how that's a false doctrine. And he's constantly talking about that. But he's going to make some very clear statements here in a minute. And, you know, he even makes an emphatic statement here saying that he doesn't want to take away from what Jesus did in hell. So he says he doesn't want to de-emphasize it. Now let's go even further. He just continues to teach how Jesus went to hell and suffered. And you can listen to the whole clip yourself. I'm sure he'll take this sermon down, but I'll just upload it again for him if you need to. But I'm not taking anything out of context. You can listen to the whole sermon. It's crystal clear. Even by the title, it's crystal clear. But let's keep listening. Amen. He would have to go there himself. Now not only that, but this is a little bit deep thought here. Hang with me. Not only that, but look. If Jesus just went to a holding tank in the center of the earth, called Abraham's bosom paradise, whatever you want to call it, Baptist purgatory, whatever you want to call it. If Jesus just went to a holding tank in the center of the earth and he was sheltered and protected from hell fire, he never died. I don't believe he ever died. Now turn to Matthew chapter 22 verse 31. Now he doesn't believe in the Abraham's bosom doctrine, or at least that's what he said. He believes that Jesus was fireproof. But he does clearly teach that Jesus was protected from the fires of hell in his fireproof sermon. And that he did not die spiritually. It was only a physical death. And that he's never heard any Baptist preacher ever say that, even though he literally just said that. He literally just said that Jesus didn't just die physically, but he was also in hell. Now he goes on to continue to say this. Let's get a little bit further in this thought. Let's see what he says. If Jesus went to where Abraham was and did not go to hell for those three days and three nights, he did not die. Because I'm going to prove to you that where Abraham was, he was not dead. Now look at Matthew chapter 22 verse 31. So he says again that if Jesus Christ went somewhere where he wasn't experiencing the suffering of hell, then he didn't die. Which is exactly what I taught. Which is exactly what he's saying is the most blasphemous thing he's ever heard a Baptist preacher say, even though he literally said it himself. Let's get more, let's just listen to the rest of this clip. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Look, where Abraham was, he was alive. Abraham was in heaven, with all the other Old Testament saints that were saved. But if Abraham was in some mystical place, some made up place, some figment of somebody's imagination, called Abraham's bosom, in the heart of the earth, like some little purgatory holding tank or whatever, if he was in that place, he was not dead, he was alive. And if Jesus went to where he was, Jesus never died either. So Jesus had to die. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection. And the only way Jesus could die a spiritual death would be if he went to hell and took our place. Amen. Now look, turn to 1 Peter 3, verse 8. So we clearly see in this clip that Manly Perry teaches that Jesus Christ died a spiritual death and the only way is if he suffered in hell, which is exactly what I taught. It's exactly what I said. It's exactly what Pastor Jimenez taught, what Pastor Anderson taught, what Pastor McMurtry taught, which Manly Perry put a comment on his sermon saying it was great. It's exactly what he said. And then he has the audacity to tell his congregation that it's the most blasphemous thing he's ever heard a Baptist preacher saying. He said it himself. This guy is such a gaslighting narcissist. I mean, this guy can't even admit that he's wrong. He can't even admit that he taught something bad. I mean, you point out false doctrine and he just keeps wiggling out of it and trying to claim, oh, that's not what I meant, that's not what I said, you have to listen to context. Listen to the little sermon. He clearly said the exact same thing. So is he going to condemn Pastor Jimenez? Is he going to condemn Pastor Anderson? Is he going to condemn Pastor McMurtry? Is he going to condemn himself? Is he going to get up and say, I taught the most blasphemous thing I've ever heard a Baptist preacher say? Because he literally taught the exact same thing. Look, this is bizarre, folks. This is Twilight Zone stuff. And not only that, his congregation is yelling amen. Some of the same people probably that heard this sermon in 2017 are the same people yelling amen about attacking me for believing and saying the exact same thing he said. You can't even make this stuff up. And I don't know if Bailey Perry is just like completely blinded like Saul was, where he was inquiring of a witch and just like going down the darkest road ever persecuting David, or if he's just an unsaved heretic that's always been infiltrating and, you know, attacking his church. But one thing's for sure, he's been teaching false doctrine for several years, and it took me a while to figure out how bad it was. And now that I realize how bad it is, it needs to be exposed. And this guy is a proven liar, he's a proven realer, which the Bible says these people should be thrown out of church. I don't understand how anybody can justify going to his church still. Anybody wants to go there. I mean, whether you like me or not should be inconsequential. I have just demonstrated and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Manly Perry is bold-faced lying to his congregation. And how can he wiggle out of this? How can he claim that he didn't say this? There's the video evidence. How can he claim he didn't hear this from anybody else when there's comments on sermons saying the exact same thing? You have to be completely brainwashed. And really, you know, it's really a testament to the power of Manly Perry's gaslighting that he still has a church, that he still can have people in there where he can just bold-faced lie to them week after week. He bold-faced lied about me, he's bold-faced lying about some of his former members, he bold-faced lied about Pastor Anderson, and yet it doesn't seem to affect anybody that goes to his church. You know, I would hope that people that love the Bible would love the truth. And I've just demonstrated the truth for you. Whether you like me or lump me, you know, it's a proven fact that Manly Perry is bold-faced lying to his congregation and gaslighting them. And now he's gone to the damnable heresy. Now he's going to heretical teaching by claiming that Jesus didn't really die, that Jesus didn't really die going to hell, that it was only a separation of his body and spirit. Look, this is a wicked false doctrine. And I plan on preaching, you know, sermons to illustrate why this is such blasphemous teaching. But if you can still go to church with a raging lying railer like this guy, a gaslighter, then you deserve him. So I hope that this video at least helps illustrate what's going on in this situation. And God bless you. Have a good day.