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Alright guys, welcome back to Framing the World Live. I am your host, Paul Wittenberger with a great show for you today. We're going to be talking with Pastor Matt First. So for those of you who don't know who he is, he is the author of Which One is Right? The King James Bible vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. So it should be a really good interview here today. You can get a copy of the book at FramingTheWorld.com. But this book really blew my mind. So I must say, I have been fundamentally changed in some aspects of my belief system on the post-trib rapture and yeah, my mind is just totally blown right now. I cannot believe that I'm actually saying this, that I have adjusted what I believe a little bit based upon his book, Which One is Right? by Pastor Matt First. So I recently had the opportunity to read Pastor First's book. I don't agree with everything, but I'm not an expert on these issues. I just am just a guy. So I'm definitely not an expert, but I have made a few materials based on the post-trib rapture I made after the tribulation, which is the seminal movie pretty much that goes into the post-trib pre-wrath rapture and why that is accurate. And I am super proud of the film. I'm sure many of you that are listening have seen the film featuring Pastor Steven Anderson and we also talked with Kent Hovind in the film. So it is definitely a great film and this is a great book. I think this is the best book on the issue because I know Dr. Roland Rasmussen wrote a book and I know there's another book about it, The Rapture Plot, which is another book about the post-trib rapture, but this book right here I really believe is great at really laying out why the pre-trib rapture is a fraud. And one of the statements that he wrote in the book, which kind of explains what this book is about, it says, This book is not a thorough explanation of my position of the post-trib pre-wrath rapture. Rather, this book is a thorough explanation of why I cannot believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. Hopefully, Lord willing, a separate book will be written soon, explaining in great detail the understanding of the end times events as found in the revelation of Jesus Christ, along with its connection of the rest of scripture. So this book doesn't necessarily outline exactly what Matt first believes about the post-trib rapture, but it does prove that the pre-tribulation rapture is false. So I thought that this book is just great. And so if you do want to support us at FramingTheWorld.com, make sure you head over to Framing The World and get a copy of this book, Which One Is Right? by Pastor Matt First. And right now we have a sale, a couple dollars off, if you get that book here today. But yeah, super excited to talk with Matt. And for those of you who don't know who he is, he is the pastor of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, South Dakota. He and his wife have four children. The first is have enjoyed serving the Lord in pastoral ministry for over 25 years. One can learn of their history by pursuing their church's website. The church's web address is mountainviewbaptistcuster.com. That's mountainviewbaptistcuster.com. And so we're going to be talking with Pastor Matt First here in a couple of minutes. We're going to be talking about his book, Which One Is Right? And where he just demolishes the pre-tribulation rapture and is just literally source after source after source. He quotes everyone on this topic and basically just proves that the pre-tribulation rapture is false. And he uses some arguments that I was not necessarily a believer on, but the way he presented the arguments I thought was really powerful. And I must say, I have been converted on some aspects of his view on the post-tribute rapture. And I wanted to talk with him about this on the program today. So Matt, thank you for coming on the show. How are you doing today, sir? Good, Paul. Thanks for having me. Well, you know, cancel culture has really played a big part in church. And I know in the foreword of the book, who is it? Pastor... Clem? Yeah, Pastor Scott Clem wrote, it appears cancel culture was present in the church long before it went mainstream in society. And that is so true. If you go against the pre-tribulation rapture, you really are canceled. What's your thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I can raise my children biblically. My children have a great testimony. My wife and I, our church is a thriving, blessed church. We're King James only. We have good standards, good music. But because I'm not pre-trib, man, I tell you what, I am a nobody and they don't want to talk about Matt first. And it's just amazing. I guess it just kind of proves the point in a roundabout way. And so I appreciate the Bible believers that are coming out and are just saying, hey, you know what? I'm reading the Bible and it doesn't match the commentaries, it doesn't match the theology I was taught. And I heard about your after the tribulation way back when, was it 10 years ago now? I don't remember how long ago it was that came out, but I was not familiar with you. I was not familiar with Steven Anderson. I was familiar with Kent Hovind and I do think Hovind is probably the best teacher on the subject of creation evolution. And so then I also was familiar with Roland Rasmussen and that book, post-trib pre-wrath rapture. And I don't agree with everything in Rasmussen's book, but I knew he was independent fundamental Baptist and King James. And I appreciated the book. I learned some things in that book. The quote from George Mueller, I learned that from that book. And you guys, I think you used, I think Paul, you used Rasmussen as your narrator for that video that you did. And that was great. Really thrilled to see somebody like you with great video experience, quality video and King James only mindset coming out and talking about the pre-trib problem. So that was awesome. So I appreciate it because my pastor Wayne Williams had been talking about it for years and I really didn't know any other independent Baptist that was talking about it. So it was really exciting to see the Holy Spirit using other people and motivating them through the word of God. So as a result by my pastor and his thesis and his teaching is, is how my books have come about. But who is Israel? What came out eight years ago? Which one is right? Came out about a year and a half ago. So appreciate your comments about that. Thank you so much. And you're right. It's not a detailed explanation of what I believe. It's more, this book is more just why I can't believe pre-trib. There's just no way. If I believe the King James Bible and I do, then I can't be pre-trib. And I think a lot of guys out there know that there's problems, but they don't want to go there because of the politics and the cancel quote. Right. Well, I really love this quote that you put in. I really hope that the IFB will one day get to the place where they treat pervert pastors and pastors who cover up for perverts the same way they treat pastors who are different on eschatology. Yeah, that was such a, that was a great quote. And of course, Tommy's a friend of mine and yours, but I just had to put that in there because it's so true. I mean, it's like, really, you can have a child that's in animal sacrifices or child sacrifice and somehow you'd be okay as a pastor in some circles. But if you're not pre-trib man, you are bad. You are just, you are, you are out there. It's just amazing. It's just amazing how we've been treated. And I think it's because the fear and truth is not afraid of examination. So obviously there's fear there and they don't want to touch it. They don't want anybody to even notice us, but, but it's growing. And there are a lot of people that are reading their Bibles and saying, I don't get this chart stuff, this pre-trib chart and all this stuff. I don't, it's not matching my Bible. I think what it's done is it's caused a lot of people to not believe the Bible because they're so ingrained in indoctrinated in the idea that pre-trib has to be right, that the Bible must be wrong. And I, I prove even in my book that there's a couple of places where quote unquote King James defenders are actually changing the text and going with the critical text and the the Alexandrian lineage to keep their position. I'm not going to do that. My Bible is more important than my theology. I can change my theology to fit the Bible, but I'm not going to change my Bible to fit the theology. And that's, that's just where I'm at. That's what independent Baptist is supposed to be. Well, I think it's hard for a lot of people because they were raised to believe this. I mean, our, my generation, especially from when I was a kid, I watched the thief in the night. I watched the left behind series. I was totally blue. I believe this all throughout college. And I think it was, you know, right after you know, listening to pastor Anderson for the first time, I realized that I was, I was wrong. And you know, once I realized I was wrong about this subject, then I really, it really opened my eyes more to the Bible because the Bible became much more clear and the pre-trib rapture is super, super confusing. And so I appreciate people that are in the chat writing. Rain door says, I'm going to read this book. I already read pastor versus book. Luke, Luke said he's already read it. So I know there is people out there that are supporting this book. Cassie McMurtry wrote or Cassandra great book. So it is, it is a fantastic book. And I just really encourage people to step outside and, and their, their thought process, if they do believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, give this book a try. It definitely presents the arguments. It knocks down each of the pre-trib arguments one by one. And I think it does a great job. Well, it's my experience that the establishment, you know, I don't know if it's because they don't want to give up their golf and go back to studying their Bible or, you know, they've started a Bible college and they've got all their curriculum just set and they don't want to have to, you know, go through the headache of rearranging everything, but Hey, you know what? Truth is truth. And if it's truth, it shouldn't be afraid of examination. And if it can be destroyed by the truth that deserves to be destroyed by the truth. And you know, I don't even explain to know that I understand everything about the end times. I just know that my Bible does not match what they're saying. And I see the hypocrisy and I documented it, I show it and, and I've yet to be refuted on it. I've had a lot of people call me names or just try to ignore me, but I have not been refuted on it because I'm using the Bible. How can they, how can they argue the Bible? And so I appreciate that. It's, it's not like this is the best book. I know you said that and I appreciate that, but surely there are better books to be written on the subject. And I appreciate you taking the time to let folks know about it and I hope the work gets it's out there. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's not though, any better book on the subject. Unfortunately, there's only a few books that I know of, maybe I'm wrong. That's even talked about the subject. I do wish more books were written about this because you know, there is people who love to read and, and for me, I, I, I read your book and it's, what's great about books and not interviews because interviews, you kind of are all over the place and you talk about different things in a book, it's, you really lay out your opinion on things and you lay it out in clear, concise way to eventually, you know, hopefully change their mind about the topics. And so that's why I think the books are so great and you know, what's great about this book is you show kind of the summary of, you know, where pre-trib came from and you show that, you know, the different people who have been real instrumental in, in promoting this pre-tribulation fraud and, you know, Cyrus Schofield is one of the main guys that has really done a disservice to Christianity. Can you tell us a little bit about Cyrus Schofield, a little bit about his background? Yeah. So, um, you know, when I was a kid and probably you too, Paul, uh, in Baptist churches, I would sometimes hear a preacher say, turn in your Bibles to Matthew chapter four. And if you've got the right kind of Bible, it's on page 536, you know, and they're ha ha ha. They're talking about the Schofield reference Bible. Right. Um, I, I did not have a Schofield reference Bible, uh, but what I did have was a surrounding of people who were influenced by it. And a lot of times people don't even realize how much they're influenced by it. But, um, I started studying and looking into Schofield, you know, 10 years ago, and I wrote that first book, who is Israel? And I really showed some of the things about him. And I found several sources about Schofield, uh, that, you know, the guy had some serious problems. And amazing thing was he was never a Baptist and he was not even loyal to the King James. I mean, in the introduction to the Schofield reference Bible, I think it's point number nine, he said that he only used the King James a hundred years ago because it was the most popular English version in America. Uh, but he also said that he corrected the minor issues, the minor problems, he corrected it with the Alexandrian text and the Tischendorf, uh, uh, and, and company text Westcott horse. So, so right there, introduction number point, number nine, he admits that he's not King James and that he's using the modern versions and the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts to correct the Bible. And he does. And especially in the area of Israel or in the area of the pre-trip, and he's changing things on purpose. And then, uh, re-subdividing titles, adding new sub points into the chapters that the King James translators never put in there, uh, translators put pill pros in the chapters, but he went ahead and re subdivided the chapters. And that also is a brainwashing technique that people don't realize. And so I've had several people say, well, I'm not a school field follower. I don't own a school field Bible, maybe not, but your teacher or your pastor, uh, has been taught from that very viewpoint that that dispensational viewpoint, what people don't understand is Americans, Christians in America, a hundred years ago, they were very much against the idea of adding to the word of God. I mean, when, when the Mormon book of Mormon came out, of course, you know, well, that's a different translation. That's a different Bible. That's a different book. I don't do that. Uh, but what, what the trap is with American Christians is they allowed someone to actually add to the word of God, right in the word of God with a study Bible with notes at the bottom. And so there's this, there's little footnotes that say, here's what this really means. And here's what that really means. For instance, when it says Abraham and his seed, it always said seed singular, but the Schofield notes, they descendants plural, that's just one example. Or second Thessalonians chapter two, when it says day of Christ, Schofield says, this would have been better translated day of the Lord. It's a mistranslation. He says, well, he's getting that straight out of the Alexandrian texts, the TR, the Texas Receptus says Christos, uh, the Alexandrian says Kira. So he's, he's claiming that the King James is wrong in certain spots and a better manuscripts or older manuscripts say it differently. He says in his notes. And it's amazing how the church has allowed that. And the Southern Bible belt is full of Schofieldites and Schofield Bible users. And uh, and they'll tell you they're King James only, but they're, they're hypocrites because they're really Schofield King James. And when, when you say it that way, honestly, you can buy a Schofield Bible in several different versions. Now you can buy it in the, in the new modern versions, modern translations. So those notes say the same, the Schofield notes stay the same, but the Bible's negotiable. That's crazy. You know, uh, but that's how ingrained the doctrine is versus the word of God. And that's what we find today is a lot of people know doctrine that has been taught to them by man, then they'll know the actual words of God. There's nothing wrong with the King James Bible. There's an attack on the King James Bible right now. And the reason why it's, it's happening is because a lot of preachers, teachers are saying stupid things that can't be backed up by the Bible. So therefore it makes the word of God look bad. It's not the Bible that's the problem. It's the teachers are trying to teach something. They can't back up with solid scripture. And when I see that as a, as a, as a young man, and even now I say, hold it, we're not going to do that. We're not going to follow tradition over Bible. And there's some traditions that might be good traditions, but if they're going against the word of God and opposite of the word of God, we're throwing out the tradition and sticking with the Bible. So I'm hoping that what I do is kind of blazing the trail, pioneering for future, uh, preachers and Christians to follow and to just dig in and say, wait a minute, I'm going to find out what God's word says. And I do think unfortunately it takes someone like a pastor, like myself or someone to say, hold it and blow the whistle and, and write a book and document things for people to finally sit up and wake up. And I know I'm not the only one as a young Baptist Christian that said to myself, I don't get the pre-trip doctrine. I don't understand it. It doesn't make sense. It's like, they got a cherry to pick this verse and jump from this passage over to this passage and I don't understand it. I think a lot of people out there in churches right now are like, I'm confused when it comes to the end times of the book of revelation. And it doesn't need to be that confusing, but what makes it so confusing is when you get a false teaching that messes everything up in your head. And so I just hope that for my own sons, grandsons, that they can, can take it from a different angle and not get warped and brainwashed to begin with, and then have a better understanding because as we move forward, the end times are accelerating. I mean, we're seeing crazy things happen in our world right now. And we have got to know what the truth is because otherwise we're just going to be fooled and led like a blind sheep to the slaughter. Right and I remember when we interviewed you for our film, Marching to Zion. You talked a lot about Schofield and that was one of the main reasons that we interviewed you for that film is your knowledge on Schofield because we knew you had done a lot of research and it's something that you talk about in the book as well as some of the background of C.I. Schofield. And you know, C.I. Schofield was caught doing forgeries and and can you talk a little bit about his criminal background? Well, he was a lawyer and he was a shyster. He was in jail, supposedly he got saved, I think, while he was in jail at St. Louis. He deserted his wife and his children. And a lot of that gets swept under the rug or excused because, well, he wasn't saved or he got right with God, blah, blah, blah. Like I say, he was never Baptist. He ended up as a congregational pastor in Texas. And within months of his divorce, he married another woman in that church in in Texas and just kept running and going. Meanwhile, back in Kansas, where he was from Kansas or Kansas City, Missouri, I can't remember which side of the line it was on, but Kansas City somewhere they wrote. There's a newspaper article. I think I have it in my book here where basically when Schofield when he died, they said the scoundrels dead or something like that. And yeah, there you go. And they they they excoriated Schofield and they that his local hometown paper, they they excoriated him as a shyster. And you know, I to this day, I'll just say it. If Schofield's not in heaven, I'm not surprised. The man was a fraud in my in my opinion. Now, that doesn't mean I know that for sure he's the hell I'm just saying it wouldn't be I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't truly born again, because the guy was he was unfaithful even to his children after the divorce. He didn't he didn't take care of them. But we know he died wealthy. I mean, the Schofield Bible took off. You know, he made money on it. And yet his children never saw that his ex wife and all that gets swept in the rug. And I don't know how especially some of the more extreme right of our movement can swallow that and accept that this divorce and remarriage thing, I mean, that's just wrong. And I'm totally against it. And and yet it's interesting. It's interesting. His background, D.L. Moody was caught up into that with him. I think I'm not mistaken, Moody. I think Schofield spoke at Moody's funeral, if I'm not mistaken. But again, Moody wasn't Baptist. And and so how the Baptist ended up taking Schofield as their own, I don't know. Maybe it's because in 1947 or 48, his notes look prophetic when Israel suddenly became a nation and it was, quote unquote, reborn. And maybe that's why he all of a sudden looks so prophetic. But I personally believe that Satan used Schofield and used the Schofield reference Bible to really pervert and twist and water down the word of God and to change doctrine in good Bible believing churches and to the point now where we said earlier, you're you're just blackballed as a heretic if you question anything dispensational. And so, you know, a job well done by Satan and and using Schofield and others. But yeah, the man had some interesting ties. He had interesting ties with Zionists. He had interesting connections with different individuals. And I talked about that in the first book and a little bit in the second book. What amazes me is like Sam Gipp or David Grady, no, excuse me, Bill Grady or Peter Ruckman and how much they were pro Schofield. And yet, as I said earlier, introduction number nine, he wasn't even King James. And we know that I know for a fact, Gipp and Grady, they used a Schofield Bible. And I think they still do. And that introduction number nine in their own Schofield Bible says that he favored the Alexandria text in certain passages and corrected the King James with those newer manuscripts that were recently found in the 1800s. And so to me, that's hypocrisy right there. And I'm just blown away by people who get mad at me for pointing out what the Bible actually says versus what Schofield wants us to think it says, as if Schofield was some kind of an inspired person. I never forget. I actually sat in a pastor's oriented, excuse me, ordination. He was being ordained and somebody in the back of the room stood up and asked if he thought that Schofield's notes were inspired. I don't know if the man was joking or if he was serious, he sounded serious. I just, I couldn't believe it. What a question. Uh, but yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of people who treat Mr. Schofield as if he was inspired and, uh, and they get really upset when you point out the fraudulent things about it. Right. Well, we know he was, um, you know, not, not the best guy based on his own writings. I mean, just prior to the release of, uh, his Schofield Bible, uh, Schofield writes in a letter to his daughter, Helen, in which he states, when I get rich, I'm going to have three homes, one in winter apartment on Washington Heights, New York city, one in Crestwood, Crestwood, one at, uh, Sorrento, Italy. And uh, you know, it, it was, uh, more than likely about the money for him and, uh, he, you know, where did he get his money? Do we even know? Yeah. I, I questioned that, you know, there was something called the Lotus. I wrote that in the first book. He somehow was a member of this Lotus club and I think it's New York city. And you had to be a, somebody to be a member of the Lotus club. And he was a nobody. He hadn't even produced his Schofield reference Bible at the time. He was literally a nobody, but somehow he got into this Lotus club. And I think that's where the Zionist got ahold of him or he got ahold of them and, uh, and a deal was made and, and, and who knows who really wrote everything in the Schofield reference Bible, but all of a sudden, uh, Oxford university press was willing and ready to print the Bible that is his reference Bible. And all of a sudden he was a success. Um, so you got to wonder, and, um, those are things that I mentioned more in the first book than in this latest book, but yeah, there's some, there's some questionable ties to that. And, uh, his, his emphasis on money and materialism is there for sure. And, uh, his, his lack of, uh, really supporting his own family, um, and the fact that he even had two wives, a divorced wife and a new wife, it was, you know, that kind of stuff. It's just amazing to me how many people still look up to it. Right. And I, I don't think a lot of people even know that he had two wives and stuff and they treat them like a God-like figure in a fundamental circle circles. And, and, but, um, now people are, you know, they're kind of pushing back and saying, well, we don't know. We don't, we don't really follow Schofield. You do. You just don't realize you do at this point, guys, my age, they don't realize how much Schofield ism they have in their thinking, in their, in their logic, in their doctrine. They just think it's Bible doctrine. They don't realize that they're teachers of professors and pastors, you know, and whoever it trickles back to him. And that's where it came from. And I always say, it was a great, great move on Satan's part to introduce into the actual King James Bible, these notes and this new doctrine with subtitles, it was a great move. It was the Trojan horse and it worked well. Well, I agreed a hundred percent on your book up till chapter three, and then that's kind of where it, it got crazy for me. And you know, it actually made me excited about this topic again. You know, I worked really hard on this film after the tribulation back in 2012, and this is from 2012 to like 2015. You know, all I did is research on the post-trib pre-wrath rapture, and I did a lot of different videos on, on that subject. But when I read this book and I got to chapter three and I finished it, it like my mind exploded by it. Cause I just never thought of this before. And you know, once you really, and once you understand what you're trying to present here in chapter three, it really just changes your whole outlook on these famous passages that we've all read a million times. Tell us a little bit about how you came to that conclusion and your thoughts about all that. So probably pastor Williams, who's now in heaven, he died a year ago. Probably he deserves the credit. I always attribute things to him at both my books. I have him in the front of the book as the dedication. I think it was him. And he was a great man. I mean, he, he's the only pastor I had that would stand up in church and say, does anyone have a Bible question about anything? I mean, I, I've sat under pastors who were college presidents, Bible college presidents who never would do that, but he would stand flat-footed in front of the congregation and asked if anyone had a Bible question, you could ask anything you want. And the amazing thing was he usually could answer off the top of his head. And so I had a lot of respect for him and his knowledge of the Bible. Even people who don't like him very well will tell you that, you know, he definitely marches to the beat of a different drum. His knowledge of the word of God and the way he thinks. And so when he talked about Daniel chapter nine in a different way, when you get to the 70th week and you, and you talk about, uh, the abominations will cease and, uh, and, and how that, uh, you know, three and a half, three and a half years or the midst of the week, uh, that, that all of a sudden opens up a whole new way of thinking. And, and you realize, wait a minute, uh, I've been thinking of this all wrong because someone told me to think this all wrong. And uh, and so I'll just read it real quick. Um, it says, uh, verse 27, he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the midst of the week, he shall cause the sacrifices sacrifice and the oblation to cease. And we've always been told that that's the Antichrist and that this is future. But you know, the truth is, and when you realize it and study it out, he is the same person as 26, the Messiah, the Prince, capital P the Prince. And, uh, back there in verse 25, Messiah, the Prince is the same Prince as verse 26. And people will say, well, but verse 26 has a small letter P for Prince verse 25 as a capital letter P for Prince. Well, first of all, that doesn't change the subject matter. Secondly, the original 1611 has both princes capitalized. So if you're a King James only guy, you got a problem there. I don't, but you do. If you're pre trip and, and so then you realize, okay, if this is Christ, he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week, he shall cause the sacrifices and oblations to cease. Well, what did Jesus do three and a half years in what, what happened three and a half years after Jesus has ministry began, he died on the cross. Well, what did that do? It caused the sacrifices and oblations to cease. At that point, the veil was ripped in the temple from top to bottom. At that point, you no longer see the Bible endorsing animal sacrifices. Why? Because he's the lamb and behold the lamb, uh, the take of the way of the sin of the world. This is Christ. This is, this is the confirmation. Of course, he's confirming the fact of salvation, that he is the Messiah and that confirmation was going on through that time. And so that midst of the week is his death on the cross. I think the last three and a half years, which is debatable and I'm okay with people debating it and thinking of it differently, pastor Williams thought that maybe that was a pause after the crucifixion and that the last three and a half years connect with the three and a half years you see in revelation, that's certainly plausible or possible. Um, others think that, uh, the three and a half years continued on into the book of acts and, and, uh, you see the great revival of Jews getting saved there in the first part of the book of acts. And then you see it kind of tailing off and, and the three and a half years pretty much ceased, uh, maybe, uh, with the Stony of Steven possibly. And I think either one of those are fine because both of them are not pre-trib they're into a post-trib theory theory there. So really like your, you showed that page of the, of chapter three, that, that pyramid that I made there, where it's the watershed issue. You either understand Daniel chapter nine to be all about Christ, or you have the antichrist in the last couple of verses of Daniel chapter nine. And, uh, that's wrong. Uh, yeah, there you go. Daniel chapter nine is not at all about the antichrist. As a matter of fact, I went to Tori's topical textbook and I went to Nave's topical textbook and I look up antichrist. I can't find one reference to Daniel chapter nine for antichrist in either one of those topical textbooks. I went to Halley's Bible handbook, which was written over a hundred years ago. Halley's Bible handbook tells you exactly what I just told you that Jesus is the one that confirms the covenant. And in the midst of the week, he's the one that causes the sacrifices and oblations to cease. Then I went to Usher's, uh, chronology of world history. And I found that he also thought of it and understood it to be that way. I even found an old book of John R. Rice that referred to Jesus as the covenant confirmer in Daniel chapter nine, verse 27. And then I went to, I think it was John Wesley's notes and the Geneva Bible notes. And I went to all these older commentaries, older than Schofield, older than the 1800s. And I thought, yeah, I find out Matthew Henry and I found all these different ones and they're all saying the same thing. They might've had a slight different viewpoint on it, but they all recognize that Jesus was the covenant confirmer and that it was the cross and the veil ripped in the temple, the sacrifices that oblation sees, Hey man, we know that's true. We know that's true. I mean, animal sacrifices are wrong today. Why? Christ died on the cross. Animal sacrifices were no more necessary. And so it's, it fits so well, and it made much more sense and it opens up so much more of a word of God that that was totally confusing beforehand. And so I would encourage people to read and digest that. And if you come up with a slight different opinion, slightly different opinion, I don't know. I'm okay with that, but I think, I think this is the major watershed issue, and this is what really destroys the pre-trib theology and the pre-trib viewpoint. And pastor Williams years ago, testified that he had a friend that challenged him on that. And when he realized that, that that is the case, it just blew his mind and it changed everything about how he thought about all of it. And I realized that there are post-millennialists or preterists out there that help hold similar viewpoint, but that doesn't change the fact that it is true. We don't necessarily agree with all of them and their theology and everything detail, but there's a lot of truth to what they say about Daniel chapter nine, and it's not wrong. They're not wrong about it. A great man, Philip Morrow, who was part of the fundamentals. He wrote three different chapters. He was a lawyer as well. He was a contemporary of Schofield. Morrow might not have been, you know, pre-millennialist thinking, but the man was, was very wise in a lot of the scripture. And I, I appreciate a lot of what he has to say. I can't say I agree with everything, but he writes some great stuff about Daniel chapter nine and the connection there. Then there's an old Baptist, BH Carroll. I think what Mako, Texas, the Southern Baptist school there. I think that what's the name of that school anyway, Baylor Baylor. I think he was the one who was the president or founder of that place. And his brother is J M Carroll, the man who wrote trail of T or trail of blood, the Baptist history, J M Carroll, BH Carroll. He also recognized the same thing that I'm telling you about Daniel chapter nine and Jesus being the covenant confirmer. So yeah, there's, there's credible sources out there. It's not just Matt first coming up with a brand new idea. This is old stuff. And so I think that's what you mean, Paul, when you say it blew your mind because it wasn't really Matt first convinced you. It's just all the documentation of, of, you know, commentaries and men of old that we never hear about anymore because you only hear the other slant, that there's this future 70th week and that God stopped the time clock at 69 of the 69th week. And that the anti-Christ is going to come on the scene and he's going to make a treaty for three and a half years. Then he's going to break the treaty in the midst of the week and cause the sacrifices and oblations, which is a bunch of baloney when you think about it, because God would never ordain animal sacrifices. And so the first three and a half years, can't be a good thing. The idea of rebuilding a temple and starting animal sacrifices, that can't be, that can't, that doesn't fit that that's that by itself as anti-Christ to go back to animal sacrifices after Christ has the, as the, the one sacrifice for sin forever, uh, to go back, that's going back to perdition as Hebrews talks about. So it's impossible for that to line up with scripture. And so, yeah, when you, when you realize you've been putting the glove on backwards and you flip the thing around, you realize, Whoa, this is how it fits. It's amazing. It just blows your mind how, how you didn't see it earlier. Right. I know it did me this morning when I was reading this, I was just like, what is happening right now? Cause it really did shift. Yeah. Amen. But what, what do you say to those who are, um, who say to you, what are you, are you calling Jesus the anti-Christ or, you know, what do you say to those people? Well, I mean, that's just a smart aleck retort because of course not, they're calling Jesus the anti-Christ. Right. I mean, they're the ones that are calling him the antichrist. I mean, like pastor Williams said, you can't get any more serious than this. You got your, you got one group of people interpreting the Bible as if that's the anti-Christ you've got the other group of people interpreting the Bible as if that's Christ, you can't get more serious than that. Uh, and, and so this is really an antichrist doctrine, uh, in more ways than one. And um, they don't want to hear it. I mean, I mean, if you were a Bible college professor, the last thing you want to be told is you've been teaching antichrist material, uh, but it's true, uh, they're, they're wrong and they don't want to admit it. And some country bumpkin in South Dakota can't possibly be right. And that's why I documented it with all these other commentaries I mentioned because there was respected names from two, three, 400 years ago and beyond. They did not think this way and, uh, they did not ever perceive this passage as being antichrist. And again, 1611, look it up, 1611 King James, the Prince has capitalized throughout that passage. All right. Uh, and so there's problem for, for them. There's a problem for them because they, some of them have said, and I quoted one of them in the book that the capitalized Prince is obviously Jesus, but then the next Prince is small piece. So therefore that's the antichrist. You got to throw that out the window. If the 1611 had a capital P I've written Cambridge and I've written different people trying to find out why was it changed to a small P it doesn't bother me because capitalization was not in the original translation in the original text. And it doesn't bother me because, because it still flows either way. I don't have to have the capitalized P for it to still read correctly, but they have to have it that way. Uh, they have to have the small P, uh, because otherwise, uh, that it all falls apart. So when you realize that they've been swallowing this concept of an antichrist and, uh, Schofield's notes are all about this. Um, I mean, this was probably one of the greatest promoters of this, of this false concept of a future 70th week and the antichrist being the hero and the climax of the story. That's that should never be Christ is the hero, not the antichrist. And yet the end of Daniel chapter nine, it's all about the antichrist. That's just, it's wrong. And there's even other, even the Spanish bear Bible has notes that points back to the fact that it's Jesus, you know, when it says he'll, he'll cause, uh, the sacrifice and oblations to the cease can confirm the covenant with many for one week. That ties to Matthew where he confirms, uh, the covenant with many, uh, in the, in the last supper. Uh, and, and that's, that's what it's all about. It's all about the salvation, the covenant of salvation. It's all about that. Christ fulfills those passages from verse 24 to 27. He fulfills it so perfectly. And it's real easy when you just take the blinders off and see what, what the Bible actually says and not read it with the Schofield grid in mind or a dispensational grid in mind. So yeah, it's great stuff and I enjoyed writing it as much as, uh, people enjoy reading it. I think it's, it's exciting for me. I I'm not the one to invent it or even discover it. I'm just kind of, you know, blowing the whistle and showing people, Hey, look, you know, kind of like King Josiah said, Hey, you know what? The Bible has been here all along. We just forgot about it. You know, we forgot to, to consult the Bible because we're, we're so expert now, uh, let's go back and see what the Bible says. And, uh, you know, the Bible makes a lot of, a lot of clarity of, of all these commentaries, but we get so professional at commentaries and notes that we forget to just read what God's word says. Well, you clearly done your research. Uh, I mean, in the book you show quote after quote after quote from pretty much everyone that preaches on the end times on this subject and, uh, you really lay it out in a great way. Um, what kind of pushback have you received from fellow post-tribbers, um, on this view? Well, um, I think it's chapter seven. There's a, there's a meme in there with, uh, I think it was Jordan Peterson in the picture, not that he said it or anything, but it just shows this picture and it says something like, uh, uh, so you're not pre-trip. No, I'm not. Well then why do you hate Jews? You know, it's like, Oh wow, that's quite a, that's quite a jump of conclusion. And, and I do think that, that you, you are called antisemitic, uh, if you're not pre-trip, um, and I do think that, uh, you know, you're, you're obviously evil in your doctrinal position, blah, blah, blah. Um, we have a young man in our church that was dating a girl and, uh, they weren't engaged, but they were kind of serious. And, um, and she finally said, well, I don't want to marry you. And if I'm going to have to live in Custer, South Dakota, and go to your church and have to listen to your pastor, all because of just this issue, I don't think she got that all by herself. I think probably some people pressured her into that, uh, and, and I've not had a lot of direct public, um, argumentation going on, but just slander and just kind of eye rolling and, and, uh, you know, kind of behind the scenes, I hear, you know, what people said third-party, um, and they just, I think they're just hoping I'll go away and that because I'm just a country bump, get out, out here in the middle of nowhere, that probably I'll just go away and I'll be a, I'll be a nobody. Uh, but the thing is, is that, um, I, I don't have to be the one to champion this. I just want the truth to get out. And it really doesn't matter if I die, uh, looking like an idiot, as long as I start to cause people to think, and that's what my pastor did. Um, my pastor had enough respectability. There were people who respected him enough for people to say, you know what, I need to understand this better. Um, and I heard one preacher say, how could a man be so right about everything else and so wrong on this one issue? And so what I, what I want people to do is, is to, is to just think the same thing is, you know, pastor first, he seems to have a good family. He seems to have a, uh, Bible believing church that has people getting saved and baptized and added to the church. And, uh, there seems to be a lot of stuff there that doesn't sound crazy and heretical. So maybe we should rethink this other issue that he's so adamant about being right. Uh, and, and, and biblical, and I'm just hoping that that's what comes through. Sorry, this phone keeps ringing. Uh, but, uh, somebody is persistent. They want to talk to me. Um, but anyhow, uh, I, I hope, I hope that people just find the truth. It doesn't have to be me. I don't have to be the one that, that helped them find it. But I know I sleep well at night. God, God knows. Um, and people will say, well, you got to bless Israel in order to be blessed. And your theology doesn't bless Israel. Well, you know, that's a whole nother subject. But the point is this, you know, I have been blessed. I don't deserve one more blessing right now. I have been way, way more blessed than I deserve. God's been good to us. And, uh, it's not true. That's not true. You know, God's protected us. He's blessed us and, uh, God, God is, has shown his favor and I, I've received great reports and reviews. Somebody, Paul, somebody bought, found this book in a doctor's office a couple of months ago. It was sitting in a waiting room in a doctor's office. He was waiting for his wife in the doctor's room. And he, he saw this book. He's a preacher from Georgia and he was blown away. He took it home. He read the whole thing. He called me and said, and told me where he found it, which was amazing by itself in Georgia and the doctor's office. And then he ordered a bunch more copies to give out to his friends and stories like that just make me smile, you know, because I think God orchestrated that. And then there are other people and other channels, people that they're not even, um, going to church because they've given up on, on a church that they think treat teaches truth. And my encouragement is, Hey, you can go to find a good church and maybe they're not post trip. Maybe they're pre trip, but if they're not staunch about it and they're not pushing dispensationalism, you can still hear good word, good preaching from, from those churches don't give up on church, uh, and, and, and on the other hand, if you go there, don't try to argue with the pastor, but just show them and, and, and pray for them and maybe suggest that they read this, but not push it on them. And one old man, 85 year old guy, he likes to listen to me and orders my, my CDs, sermon CDs, but he told me recently he finally found a good church and I think it's South Carolina. And he has to drive about 80 miles to get there, but he's excited because he finally found a country preacher. That's never taught dispensational stuff, never believed it. And he's excited. I'm excited for him because I think they're out there. I just think that we don't hear about them very much. Uh, because first of all, if you're not dispensational pre trip, would you want to tell people, I mean, you're just going to be shamed for it. So I can see where a lot of pastors are kind of just quiet about it. But on the other hand, I do feel like if I can be public about it, it will give them more encouragement and give them maybe some more courage to stand for truth and do the right thing and, uh, and stand up and, and I think there's a lot more of us out there. I think there's, you know, like the Bible says over 7,000, they have bowed the knee. I think there's a lot of us out there. Uh, but yeah, I've, I've, I've gotten, I've gotten, uh, bad treatment, I guess. And I don't feel persecuted, but I've gotten disrespect. Uh, and I'm kind of mouthy, you know, I'm opinionated. So some of it I bring on myself, but there's disrespect there, you know, uh, and that's is the way it is. You know, my Alma mater, they, my Bible college, they they've had just about everybody they can find, uh, to come preach in their chapel and preach for them, but they don't want Matt first cup and it's not because my church is bad or my family's bad, or it's just because of my eschatology and, and because if you're a Bible college, you're kind of in a political hotspot and they're trying to get students to come and they got to please all the other pastors and so they can't have the crazy Matt first cup, because if he comes, they're just, they're going to hear it from, from the other pastors and that's just a fact. So, and unfortunately in all of that, somehow they still call themselves independent, right? Uh, but truly if you're independent, it doesn't matter what everybody else thinks. It just matters what God thinks. And so if I'm going to call myself independent, then I need to not worry about the criticism and that's kind of where I'm at. Right. Well, I, I do encourage those that are listening that do not agree with this subject, um, to get a copy of the book and read it because, uh, you know, talking about it on this stream or maybe some other streams is good. And it definitely gives you some insight on the subject, but, you know, reading it, how it's presented and, uh, laid out, I think is just, it's a great way to really understand what you mean, because you know, I've heard that you believe this way for a long time now, but I, I dismissed it, not knowing kind of what you believed. And so I think it's important for people to, um, read it and understand the, the belief, and then if you, you disagree, then you disagree and we can still be friends, you know, I think a lot of people are just, if you're not a hundred percent on board, you're like, you're a heretic. He can't talk. It's like, but it's so, it's so weird. It's funny how even pre-trippers don't agree with each other. Right. I mean, there's a lot of pre-trip that, that doesn't line up with each other. Uh, and so the post-trippers don't need to worry about whether or not we agree on every detail. I just think that, that when you realize Daniel nine is ending with Jesus and not Antichrist, it really helps everything else to fit a whole lot more clearly and, and just without having to pound a square peg in a round hole, uh, it just really flows in. And I know there are guys a lot smarter than me once they get converted to this understanding, they're going to be way better at even explaining it than I can, but they've got to get converted to it. First. Um, there's a lot more, uh, a lot of guys with more, a lot of guys with more brains and intelligence than me, uh, that can explain this, I'm just, I guess, dumb enough to publicly say it and say, Hey, here's, here's what I believe. Uh, and, uh, my pastor said, well, if you're going to follow this and really believe this, and you're going to declare it, you better watch out. And I thought, surely not, you know, I'm just going to show from the King James Bible, what I believe. And because everybody's King James, they're going to say, oh yeah, that's the way it should be. Huh? Wow. I mean, just, just this month, there's a huge argument about whether the King James is really the Bible. I I'm just, I'm blown away that the King James isn't the final authority in our Baptist churches. I thought that was a settled issue. So it's no surprise to me that my book isn't well received because there's a whole bunch of people out there and churches calling themselves independent Baptist that don't even really think the King James Bible is the word of God. So they're certainly not going to read a book based on the idea that the King James Bible is the word of God. So what a wake up call. I guess I had, I just was naive to believe that everybody was sincere. Like I was concerning God's word. And I've said many times, if you can prove that the King James Bible is not accurate, then I quit. I'm going to go get a job at Walmart, do something else. I'm not going to do this, but I don't believe that they can convince me of that. And so here I am still preaching and praise God for the truth tellers and the truth seekers, because they're coming out of the woodwork and appreciate your. Appreciate your talents, Paul. Appreciate your venue. I appreciate you and others like you that are doing this. I appreciate you reading the book because now you understand where I'm coming from. It's not just crazy, man. So thank you. Appreciate you reading that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, any final thoughts before we let you go? Um, yeah, I mean, I just want to say that we support 40 missionaries. We support a missionary in Israel. We keep his name anonymous cause, uh, he's in Israel. Um, we support missionaries all over the globe and not one of our missionaries are told that they have to believe my eschatology, that they have to be post trip, not one of them are helped that I don't believe eschatology is supposed to be a dividing issue a hundred years ago or so. BH Carroll said that eschatology was not a dividing issue, but it is today. Good grief. If you're anything other than pre trip, you might as well forget it. You can be liberal in a lot of things, including the Bible itself. But as long as you're pre trip, you'll get along fine with a lot of circles. Uh, and so there's, there's a real change in the way people think. And I do think it's part of the apostasy in the last days. Um, but on the other hand, let me just say for me, it really is not a dividing issue. Um, if, if they're radical dispensations, we're not going to support them. But our number one goal is that they are preaching the gospel to every preacher, that they're, that they're doing the great commission and these side issues are just side issues. Uh, I do think it's a big deal. It's important, but it is compared to the gospel, a side issue. And so I know for a fact that I don't treat others the way they're treating me on this subject. Um, and I guess that's just the way it is, but, uh, I want you to know that you don't have to agree with me and we don't even have it in our church bylaws or constitution that our members have to agree with my post-trib eschatology, uh, they don't, it's not a requirement even to be a member of our church. Of course, they're going to hear it taught preach, but it's not a requirement. And so there's no hypocrisy in what I'm saying here. Um, but on the other hand, I've had people call me and wouldn't even, you know, when they found out I wasn't pre-trib, they wouldn't even come on vacation to visit our church. You talk about silly, but, um, I want to encourage those listening to us that aren't going to church anywhere. If you can find a godly Bible believing pastor preacher, even if he doesn't fully understand what we're talking about today, give them a chance, you know, and maybe your testimony and your sweet spirit gracious attitude will help them to come around. Uh, and if you're belligerent and ugly and unkind and, and, and backstabbing, you're not going to help this cause at all, even if you are quote unquote reg concerning your eschatology. So be careful and be aware that it takes years for some people to come around. It takes years for a guy who's been taught thinking one way to finally come around to think a different way on these issues and so live an example. If you want someone to change and be patient with people and pray for that. But you know what, Paul, as, as time marches on and as our world gets more and more crazy and we become more globalist in our world, I think more people are starting to wonder if pre-trib is right. And so I think time's on our side because as time marches on, it's going to get more nuts. There's, there's people out there that are already shocked that the rapture hasn't happened yet. And as time marches on, they're going to get more shocked. And so let's just quietly, but firmly explain to people, Hey, we're not trying to be ugly, but you know what you've been lied to and, uh, it's not tomorrow, uh, it's not any day now, like they say, you know, any moment now. And, uh, uh, there's, there's things that are going to come beforehand. There's going to be some tribulation ahead, but don't worry. God's still in charge, but read your Bible, stop reading the other books and just read the word of God. That's what I'd have to say. Well, amen. Thank you so much, pastor for coming on the program. And for those of you who have not read this book, again, I encourage you go to framing the world.com, get a copy, which one is right by Matt first and another book he's written who is Israel is also available at framing the world.com. Thanks so much pastor for coming on the program. I hope you have a good day. God bless. Thanks Paul. All right. Well, that was pastor Matt first on the program. I appreciate everyone tuning into framing the world live. I do plan on putting out a bunch of videos here over the next couple of weeks. So if, uh, you are a supporter of ours on rock fin, I appreciate you. Thank you. If you are listening on YouTube to the streams, make sure to head over to rock fin and, uh, support us over there. And don't forget guys, get your copy of Matt versus two books, which one is right. And, uh, who is Israel at framing the world.com. You can support us by getting a book over there, and you can also support us just by donating to our new film temple. It's an important film. It's a film that I've wanted to make for years now. And we were able to head to Israel and film, um, a large portion of the film. We still have a little bit of pickups we need to do. And then we have to edit the film. And so I'm hoping we can raise some funds here and, uh, get this film finished and get it off to the DVD makers and get this. So I'm hoping, so I'm hoping we can get this film finished and out the door in time for late July, early August, somewhere around that, that time period. Um, so I'm doing the best I can, working every day, trying to support my family and get these projects done. So thank you guys for your support. I hope you have a good day. God bless.