(Disclaimer: This transcript is auto-generated and may contain mistakes.)

you you four three two then a log anyone at home can do their own experiments to see that the earth in fact is a flat disc with a glass dome think about it just grab a rubber ball and place it under a faucet notice how the water doesn't stick to the ball I wonder why look at your shoe when you're standing outside is it curved I don't think so go take a flight somewhere last time I checked you aren't flying sideways like this how would that even work folks if I jump up I'm gonna land right where I started from cuz we ain't spinning don't give me that look you know what I'm saying is true and you know what why stop at flat earth I say we expand our horizons flat Sun flat moon just a light bulb anyway everything's flat the sky is a hologram you say this all sounds crazy it may sound crazy to you but the flat earthers are everywhere from North America to Asia all over the globe and if you think they're stupid wicked or both and that their brains have been fried with the most nonsensical cosmology you've ever heard in your entire life that they seem to be under some kind of delusion that takes reality denial to a whole new level and when you hear them speak you cannot help but point and laugh it sounds to me like you've got a case of the Baptist bias everybody thanks for joining us on the Baptist bias we've got an interesting show this evening not a typical one we're gonna have a special debate with Austin wits it and in fact we have a special moderator I guess we only use Owens but we've got Owen Benjamin's gonna be moderating for us and we've got a lot of people all over the globe this evening gonna be tuning in and watching the show but I'm not your host I'm gonna be kicking it over to Owen Owen Benjamin thanks so much for coming on the show and moderating this discussion for us this is a very exciting I wasn't aware of Pastor Shelley I just looked him up that looks kind of based looks pretty cool I know what's it gets it he's a solid dude and this is a fun debate to be really condescending and ad hominem and all that but I just went up some parameters in the beginning so that it's very constructive all right for I want both sides to agree that the other side's opinion does not make them evil or stupid or crazy dangerous can we all like verbally agree that agreed I'm not gonna attack Austin personally in the show but I do think that some flat earthers are wicked so I don't know if that is yeah well some people who like lemonade are wicked these are this is what we this is what we need we need a higher level of logic here so when you say some earthers are wicked so like Brahms are wicked all right and I you guys talk about that flat earth is dangerous I'd also like everybody to agree that the food pyramid is more dangerous or the belief in margarine okay can you see that that's more dangerous like believing the earth is flat is objectively not dangerous and it does not mean you're stupid can you admit that before we start well of course I think it's stupid I mean that's the whole point of the discussion I mean no but it doesn't mean the person okay like I agreed to do this because I think that we can have a good lodge people debate but if you're just gonna be like an ankle-biter I just follow the rules all right do you think that someone is stupid if they believe it is that there is person or a dangerous person or a crazy person well I couldn't I couldn't be honest with the fact that if I believe the earth is a globe and that's a fact that someone who doesn't believe that that wouldn't be stupid you can't answer the question you just can't answer just know the answer you think everyone who is stupid and crazy that believes like you we can't do a debate if that's the if that's the presumption yeah but if I write his position has merit then why would I have my position I mean the poster that no no I never asked literally have a short of me saying that they're stupid so I can't contradict you ready I'm not saying do you think his opposition has merit do you think that everyone who believes in the flat earth is a stupid I think that lots of people are intelligent but that position is stupid okay so do you believe that everyone who believes the earth is flat is a stupid yeah it's a yes or no question it's just super easy man I'm not even trying to be antagonistic I'm trying to be like totally unbiased but you in the show so aggressively with your little light ball thing and like posturing like everyone's dumb that's not how you start a debate like that's that's dishonorable well I did I did agree to the debate and said that it would be kind of hostile and again I'm not trying to I'm willing to have the conversation I'm not gonna just sit here and just make insults so if that's what you're not worried about because I've been here I have something here this is called the ad homo horn okay pastor Shelley sure so you do an ad hominem where you call someone a name I'm gonna blow it in your face it's called the ad homo horn in a long ago time men who did the bail that you're not supposed to attack the character of the other person and I feel like I really have to like instill this in you because I can already tell that's your main thing if you try to do ad hominem I will blow the ad homo horn and I'll also do it with logic fallacies like appeal to authority a peeling census circular reasoning red hair you understand so that's it like if you start running your mouth like everyone's stupid but you and you're this special boy ad homo horn and wits it gets it I'll say the same deal it's willing to admit the people that believe in the heliocentric model it does not mean they're evil can we admit that yeah of course yeah can you admit that it does not mean they're stupid it does not mean they're liars and it does not mean that they can't have a kind of God because I hear that with flat earthers and I don't believe that at all so are you willing to verbally admit that someone can in the helios and still have a functioning connection with God not be a liar not be stupid can we all agree to that yeah of course some of the smartest most based spirits like Christians in the world were out there through the globe see you see how easy that is pastor shall it's it's that simple I think I was that simply again I think you're trying to straw straw man me here and again like I agreed to the show because I do think the position is stupid and the people believing it it's stupid so like that is my position now that doesn't mean that those your position is the people who believe it are all stupid at least in that category in that category yeah I mean if someone told me that they think that a man is a woman I would say that that's stupid I will do this but this is already a little a little ridiculous because this isn't a debate you're just calling names and I'm trying to set a parameter that it's also not faith-based can you agree that this is not a faith-based belief right like it requires proof you can argue it like if someone disagrees with you it does not make them evil and you have to use logic and reason to attempt to back up your case not ad hominem not snarky little things like you just did okay well you admit to that before we start and then we will start but I really don't want this to be a shit show where you're just so backed into a corner that you're like well I mean you know we're like flying it with a pizza like we it's that's not productive dude and it's it's kind of the only shows it's a joke I thought comedians understood what humor was but the conversation I don't know why I can't just have the discussion why can we just have the discussion pastor Shelley so you're now claiming that I comedian Owen Benjamin does not understand what humor is is that your claim I just didn't assume that you would be so offended by words like idiot considering the fact that in your bit no no I'm not calling names all the time I mean if someone said that they call you I call you a queer you're a queer gay dick gay like why can't we call each other names I'm not I'm not afraid of that it's not afraid it's not afraid it's that if your argument requires ad hominem it's not an argument and that mine does not require it I just was simply bringing it in so we could have a fun show how about this every 10 minutes we'll take a minute and we can call each other pussies and asses and you suck in your stupid that way you can get your jollies off all right is that good every 10 minutes we will take a time out cuz pastor Shelley wants to call people names and he thinks we're afraid of his names I just want to have a show okay okay but you're willing to so you're agreeing now you're verbally agreeing that you will not call names you won't do appeal that are you won't do logic fallacies you will do that I think I'm talking to a three-year-old right now like you won't eat the ice cream in the car I feel like I'm having to sign a COVID contract now or something like that I'm community guidelines for YouTube or something I thought this was a free speech platform okay one more time pastor Shelley all right I realize I just don't want to I just don't want to agree to some vague definition of Owen Benjamin's view of a logical fallacy because couldn't you be wrong I feel like the moderators just making sure that we're we're fair on time and that people aren't over that's what I'm setting the rules because I know ad hominem is what you're up to ad hominem has a very very clear definition I understand what ad hominem attack is I'm not planning on doing that after Shelley let me finish real quick you just said I don't you just said that I'm making things up as I go okay ad hominem means you attack the person not the argument are you willing to admit will you say that you will not do that during this debate and if you do I will blow my ad homo horn I'll do my best to avoid that so you can't you can't do that like you I'm just saying I'm just saying like I'm just saying I I'm not gonna try to do that but it doesn't mean mentally retarded just because you can say something doesn't mean that you can't control yourself based on a boundary that we're setting right now this isn't just do the show not until we set the guideline or else it'll just be yelling you feel like I made a mistake then just call it out let's just move on so you won't say that you won't attack his character during the debate like you can't agree to that because it's free so that's an arbitrary definition ad hominem ad hominem attack I understand what an ad hominem attack is so okay based on that definition will you attack Austin I'm not planning on doing it no you're not planning on doing it okay so you can't agree to that so if you do do that it's because you can't control yourself yes whatever whatever definition you want to attribute let's just can we just do the show I don't understand it's not a show it's a debate this is why can't we start I thought I was supposed to debate Austin all right you want to go against me with mockery this is what I do for a living okay we're doing debating right now we're not doing mockery because I would beat you badly I've done it professionally for 25 years okay that is refusing to hear anybody call a name this okay any merit you're afraid of the word retarded let's say we're at a wedding and I'm marrying two people and I say let's not mock Puerto Ricans yes and you go well I can't agree to that I mean what so there's no free speech this is a debate this is not a comedy show I did not agree to do a comedy show okay I'm not expecting it to be a comedy show I know okay got it all right so are we settled we're gonna do this you're not gonna attack the character you're gonna because I don't even I don't even know Austin to attack to attack his character no no no it's like everyone who believes this is a dumb person they're crazy right I just watched your intro it was retarded okay so if that's your argument that isn't an argument that I didn't argue that was just a funny intro to the show that's not me no one laughed okay like no one in the world laughs like I know comedy all right I'm sure the globe thought it was stupid it was stupid everyone thought it was stupid so you can you can add hominin attack me all day long but you I can't do that that's I just want to make sure I understand yeah yeah definitely I will not add hominin you if you agree to not add hominin everybody else let's go because if not I'm gonna mock your mother go for it okay okay well just remember that and when your mom gets upset just let her know that you can lose your dad so good luck upsetting her that's even easier to mock dead people can't say anything back faster shall we dead people just moderate the debate please I just want you to know that if I mock your dad mom what are you afraid you're afraid of response no I'm not I want to have the show right now I'm doing it right now are you afraid that I'm gonna destroy Austin or something like what's the point we just have the show can we please just have the show yeah we can have the show as long as you agree to not do it if you if you won't have the show we'll just kick you off because there's no point even having this conversation can we just have the show so now you want to kick me off no I want to have the show I want you to just moderate the discussion let's start with our five minute opening this minute imagine if I say let's play basketball no one uses a knife okay and you're like well I can't guarantee I won't use the knife let's just play basketball you're like you're like you have to agree no ad hominem or else we're not doing this because that's all you're gonna do is you're gonna be like basketball game they all agree not to foul people but if they do they get it called by the ref that's your job just do the show okay so if you add hominem I'll just call you out for it go for it let's do the show okay cool let's do this alright so we're gonna start off with five minutes each each person has five minutes to go and then the other person gets to respond to the five minutes when you're at four minutes I will ring a bell that Bell lets you know you have one more minute okay if there are logic fallacies you will get the ad homo horn okay and then after that we can do a little bit of back and forth and at the end we'll have closing arguments sound good boys yeah yeah let's go for it that's to show you that sound good let's do it okay since it's home court pastor Shelley I'll ask you would you like to go first or would you like to pass the baton to which it gets let him go for it that's very nice of you and I do appreciate that and I think we're already making up a little bit all right so we're gonna start the clock we are we're gonna end up friends after this we will you'll see I'm gonna start the clock at five minutes and so with it is arguing in the affirmative that the earth is a flat not moving plane pastor Shelley is arguing against that that it is a spinning ball in a vacuum all right so that's the parameters all right let's kick this thing off let me get my little clock reset and go all right yeah so thanks for having me on thanks for modding Owen um so the position is pretty simple we were kind of all told that the earth is a spinning ball and then it flies through space but if you actually think about everything logically we need a step back and so the default position is actually that the earth is a stationary plane so yeah I take the affirmative position that it is a stationary plane and that's supported with every you know empirical piece of evidence that exists so we obviously don't experience the earth moving we in fact we have highly precise interferometry measurements that have shown that the earth's not moving we obviously see the horizons horizontal we actually use plane survey to do all civil engineering to build everything in the world as if the earth is flat we fly the plane as if the earth is flat and stationary so on the surface unintended right everything is the default being that the earth is flat stationary of course we see everything in the sky move etc so there's a claim that the opposite of that is true so actually in terms of logic right that has a pretty substantial burden of proof we've already substantiated just with the default empirical position but that's kind of the meta here and one thing that happens a lot is people typically they say well if the earth is flat then how does this work you know like oh well what is the moon then you know and I've never been to the moon by the way no one has and I don't know what it is I don't need to know what it is to falsify this claim that the earth is a globe right so falsification is independent of replacement that's important and hopefully we can keep that in mind going through the conversation because if the tactic is just to say if I can get a gotcha on the flat earth or of how the whole universe works and somehow the earth becomes a ball again that's an illogical way to go about it and then I'll go through some of the evidences that we have that directly refute it you go back into time you get to 1887 Mickelson Morley they did an interferometry test and it showed that the earth is not moving so much so that the graveler named Einstein had to come in and change all physics and say that time slows down and the measuring rod contracted to deceive us into thinking that the earth is stationary and that's the modern claim of physics today to claim the earth is moving through space you actually have to say time slows down to trick you into thinking so and that's a positive claim that literally can't be verified at all that test has been replicated hundreds of times even in modern history so the interferometry measurements show that the earth's not moving it's the most precise way to measure motion in the world and actually when we do detect the rotational motion with say ringways or gyros it changes with altitude which is impossible on a sphere the actual measurement would have to stay the same at latitude regardless of altitude so that's a direct falsification of the claim that the earth is moving which is actually again the positive claim needs to be substantiated anyway as to the the flat part of it like I said we already utilize the earth as if it's flat we make plain survey measurements we literally measure the earth to be flat that's how we do civil engineering to build runways railways bridges our entire life is literally built upon the understanding the earth's flat and the flat earth measurements called plain survey measurements what then happens is people take those flat earth measurements stitch them together and claim the earth's a globe with a presupposed our value and so that's going to get into how we know for sure that this globe models that was brought to us by Jesuits is incorrect we actually falsified the radius so if the radius value is wrong the entire model is wrong as the globe models day and night cycle uses that gravity uses that distances on the earth use that everything about the model boils down to the radius value of the sphere that is proposed the way that we have falsified that and there are many ways we've shown that the horizon is in fact not physical it's apparent and we've seen the horizon over 10 times further than it needs to be requiring the radius value be 250,000 miles away basically just saying the r-word saying refraction doesn't make it true you have to substantiate that we also have a line-of-sight radio wave transmissions that go far beyond the limit limit of the curvature of the earth and microwave transmissions up to 10,000 miles and it should get blocked to say a couple hundred miles and so we that's a physical test that shows that the earth is a plane and there are there are many more right so really just to reiterate it because I think I'm coming up on the five minutes that the simple part is that 30 seconds a simple part is that we have our burden of proof substantiated as the default that the earth's a stationary plane that the stuff in the sky moves and then the claim that the earth is actually the opposite of that requires the burden of proof and we went a step further and even tested that claim and falsified the rate our value and claim of motion therefore you know it can't be anything other than the stationary plane okay that was almost exactly five minutes excellent open remarks focusing mainly on the burden of proof being on that who makes the claim and since and peer you know your eyes ears whatnot it appears that the earth is not moving the person who claim it is moving has to make the claim and then he backed that up with many things now it's pastor Shelley's turn for a five minute opening and I will give you the bell at four minutes and 30 seconds go ahead well I did have a opening statement prepared I'm not gonna be able to read that because apparently ad hominem is not allowed so I will appeal to the parts of what I was going to say that don't necessarily bring up Bible verses or what this conversation is about but specifically proving the earth is a sphere takes about 30 seconds there's plenty of YouTube videos online that prove that you can watch them there's one minute videos two minute videos ten minute videos there's plenty of things that appeal to all the evidences and all the proofs number one you know the stars are flipped from the northern and southern hemisphere which makes it abundantly clear that we're on a sphere and yeah people are walking upside down to us and additionally we see the Sun rise in the east set on the west we have thousands of photos and videos of the earth from satellites sent over by 90 countries over 90 countries that set up satellites it's that simple the earth is obviously a sphere it's been observed it's been tested everything we experience in our lives confirms a spherical earth as well as you know a heliocentric viewpoint of our solar system specifically and additionally when it comes to history the Bible or science they all appeal to the exact same thing in Isaiah 40 verse 22 the Bible says it is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth and the Bible has always known about the shape of the earth it's always known about different calls cosmology and different things that we experience see in our universe and science is always catching up to the Bible specifically for a long time I honestly didn't believe that flat earthers even existed so you know it definitely is something that for me I was not aware of I kind of thought it was a fake and yet I have run into some people that you know do a claim like in my personal life that I know that are flat earthers and there's been some people that have changed their mind so I do think that it is possible for someone to change their mind on this particular issue when it comes to their specific evidences you know it seems like they have about six basic categories that I typically find their arguments it seems like number one they typically appeal to experiments where they see things further away than expected these are typically over large bodies of water and they don't really consider refraction or elevation changes another thing that they do is they appeal to simple observations like it looks fat and it feels flat however you can't always feel movement in a car or an airplane additionally they appeal to the Bible but the Bible is not compatible with their model whatsoever number four they usually appeal to the fact that government lies about things like 9-11 vaccines JFK and sure the government does lie a lot but that doesn't prove that they're lying about the shape of the earth another the fifth one that they usually bring up is discarded or debunked alternative scientific theories such as geocentrism the ether we even heard earlier the appeal to the Michelson Morley experiment however that was based on the fact that the earth is moving and it did not prove that the earth doesn't move it proved that simply they can't detect any ether and so the ether was discarded shortly after it was decided that the speed of light is a constant and so if the speed of light is a constant you know it really disrupts a lot of those older scientific theories and the ether was basically discarded as being unuseful and predicting anything the sixth thing that typically fire others will do is they will appeal to the fact that there's bad science and of course there is when it comes to the Big Bang Theory when it comes to evolution these things are complete junk they're not true they're made up and so they kind of appeal to that as a gateway into the idea that there's other lies other bad science and they suggest that somehow the heliocentric view or the spherical earth is somehow bad science again but when it comes to you know this specific situation you know I think it's really clear that this is just a distraction from what's really important and I think that Owen kind of brought this up earlier and the idea that this isn't the biggest issue necessarily I think it's a distraction from the gospel of Jesus Christ I think that that's our sole purpose on this earth is to get saved and to give people the gospel so that they could be saved and it seems like every time I run into a flat earth or they only want to talk about that like they're just so ardent and just so vitriolic for that particular viewpoint it just seems like their whole worldview and so you know I do think that it's certainly a distraction I have a lot of other strong opinions about that but I'll keep them to myself for now so we're good to go okay so that concluded pastor Shelley's opening statement and his argument rusted on two minute five minute and ten minute YouTube videos existing ninety countries have said so the government sometimes doesn't lie and that flat earthers rely too much on experiments how things look and feel he knows some people who have changed his mind and the speed of light is a constant one question I would ask is a lot of what his argument rested on with the church was the church always heliocentric globe-based even before Galileo so was it always this because you said science catches up to the globe I'm just curious was the church always a globe just just just to be clear I said the Bible so just because people may have bad interpretations or not understand the no bro okay good doesn't mean that they the Bible is wrong additionally I think it's impossible to always know what happened throughout history but yes historically Christianity there's been plenty of Christians that have believed in a spherical earth but there have been people that have denied that so I think it's a mixed bag I would not say it's all one or the other well Galileo was arrested for taking the earth moved in the 17th century so that's that's not exactly a mixed bag but anyway so now we're gonna kick it over to wits it gets it for a three minute rebuttal to Pastor Shally's opening statements go ahead three minutes okay yes so on the the scriptural thing I mean you obviously brought up Isaiah 40 22 and that circle is specifically different word in Hebrew than he uses just before that which is a different word for ball so he specifically doesn't call ball and I actually have heard seen a video of you and I didn't look too much into it but you said I hear a bunch of people say Hebrew cosmology and you said yeah well the Jews are wrong about everything well you know the Messiah was a Jew I guess right and I think he would have probably said hey you guys got the first part of the book wrong so that's a wild argument to me obviously says it's immovable and fixed it's it's you have to claim that the scriptures creation description is not literal but I can prove that the scripture is literally correct outside of it right and so I find that part very interesting truth doesn't fear investigation and that's what makes it so fascinating um and so we just can cover quickly this stuff you got wrong you said that they discovered that the speed those speed of light was constant no that's not correct he assumed that it was because it had to be along with time dilation and length contraction in fact been proven not to be there's anisotropic signal propagation accounted for even in GPS you brought up satellites so I guess we can get into it but satellites in the no way proved the Ursa globe they actually use ellipses over a plane with a change in velocity relative to the center of the coordinate system and real inertial forces of a rotating universe which are geocentric physics in their equations it actually is evidence for geocentrism of satellites are up above us you said that Mickelson Morley just failed to detect the ether that's just patently incorrect it was the relative motion of the earth in the ether what they were trying to detect was literally the motion of the earth at 30 kilometers per second through an ether they didn't they do the ether out they then said that time slowed down at the measuring apparatus contracted to deceive them into thinking that the earth was stationary you say we just say that we see too far well yeah there's physical limits to living on a sphere and it doesn't comport to what we see and we've seen hundreds of miles where there should be literally three four or five vertical miles blocking what we see and so you're gonna have to verify the claim that it's all an illusion so I'll just reiterate the point again you you have the burden of fruit of substantiate these claims you basically just use a baseless assertion fallacy over and over and then you kind of a pill to consensus and then you use a bunch of stereotype fallacies and poisoning the well fallacies and then reification fallacies and affirming the consequent fallacies and none of that is is obviously going to cut it logically so we'll have to we'll have to get more into actual evidence okay and also I'm not trying to come across as biased I really am just listing someone's arguments swear to God I wasn't trying to be like that so I'm gonna try and be less biased no I literally made a list of your arguments and I read them back all right anyway so that was wits it gets it responding to yours and now I'm gonna give you mr. bastard Anderson three minutes to respond to his and I will say this thank you for the lack of ad hominems it means a lot to me it really truly does and I do appreciate it it shows a lot of honor okay and just for the record I don't know what the earth is so I'm not this guy I I'm not like biased in that sense I'm just a stickler when it comes to our logic fallacies okay pastor Shelly you have three minutes go no problem you actually call me pastor Anderson but you clarified again secondly uh Austin did not address the fact that the stars are flipped from the southern and northern hemisphere which was my first argument additionally he didn't address the fact that the Sun is rising in the eastern setting in the West which is my second argument third argument was all the videos and photos that I brought up he did not address my third argument he likes to appeal to theoretical physics and act like he's smart and like he knows what he's talking about on those issues but he's wrong and specifically when it comes to the Michelson Morley experiment he's wrong again they already know the fact that the earth is moving around the Sun what it disproved was the ether but I don't really care about getting into theoretical physics because we have so many simple proofs that he wants to ignore and not talk about that clearly prove the shape of the earth and a heliocentric model I would love to discuss Isaiah 40 verse 22 he brought up the Hebrew underlying word which is hughe I'm sure he doesn't speak Hebrew and specifically if we look at this word in all translations it appeals to the exact same thing if we look up at the word circle in the dictionary it will tell you that it's a sphere and it's the earth and it's an orb so he just wants to hide behind just sounding smart on these issues but the problem is the Bible is very clear and I get offended by someone that wants to say that the Bible is teaching a flat earth because that would in my mind be heretical and it's very clear that the Bible is compatible with a spherical shape of the earth with a heliocentric model I'm not sure if I understood if he said satellites don't exist or maybe they don't exist in the way that we describe them so I would I'm not sure exactly what his argument was on that particular issue but again theoretical physics did not exist at the 1600s or the 1300s or if we want to go all the way back before the time of Christ when tons of people had already proven the earth was a sphere when we talked about a rasp Eratosthenes Eratosthenes had discovered the circumference of the earth before the time of Christ and we have maps we have globes we have all kinds of images from the Bible of people showing that the earth is a sphere believing it's a sphere I don't need modern scientific theories okay great job and we will kick it back to Whitson in one second for him to address and I wrote these down stars being flipped in the southern atmosphere the Sun rising in the east and the West Eratosthenes and the HQ the who good question and I will add this though as the moderator I get to look things up and Pastor Shelley just said that circle means a globe and I just looked it up circle the definition a closed plane curve consisting of all points at a given distance from a point within it called the center not only is that not correct factually it's actually the opposite can I can I clarify that point no it's a it's a two it's a two-dimensional closed that's a circle can I clarify I just read you you said the dictionary 1828 in the 1828 Webster's dictionary which would be closer to the 1611 King James Bible and was translated if you look at the second definition of the word circle it literally says orb and sphere and earth no problem it says circle circuit compass that's what the word means in Hebrew just yeah yeah and we do get to fact check you this is not me I have the image if you want me to pull it up on the screen I can pull it up I'm looking at the concordance right now right it says circle circuit compass those are the three words that it's translated as okay in the king the first the first definition of 1828 in geometry a plane figure comprehended by a single curve line called its circumference every part of which is equally distant from a point called the center of course all lines drawn from the center to the circuits circumference or periphery are equal to each other that is the first what's the second definition in popular use so not not the definition I'm I'm just gonna like when it's really in popular use no no but I'm establishing this you said the definition is a globe or a ball but the definition is actually a flat plane in popular use which basically means slang like grab or if you read the first line it says in geometry so yeah it's saying clarifying in a 2d drawing of geometry it's a it's a it's okay okay fair enough fair enough the line that comprehends the figure the plane or surface comprehended and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance are demonstrated in a circle a ring and orb the earth okay so it says ring circle I mean you invoked it geometrically saying it was describing a sphere that's a geometric argument yeah ring is not but it's fine if we read orb orb is provided in the definition and if you just type to me bro this is a weird I'll give you that I'm I'll give you that the word orb is in there I do not know that and that is a valid point and if you just type an orb into just we can put on the screen but if you type in orb in the Merriam-Webster 1828 dictionary and read what it says about what an orb is there is a very in plain sight saying that it's a sphere yeah can there's something a circle and not a sphere in a two-dimensional world of course a circle do we have quarters in the real three-dimensional world that's not a sphere and it's not it's not a circle it's not a circle it's a disc so there's a difference okay okay it's round look like I have to keep this I have to keep this focused so I'm kicking it back over to Austin he's now only gonna have two minutes I keep taking some time off and you have to direct address specifically these points hughe hughe in Hebrew which means circle and according to the 1828 dictionary which is the closest to the 1611 King James Bible the second definition in popular use has orb in there that is the point he's making okay um so I'm just just understand that that doesn't make you stupid that you don't know all those points all right but anyway that's the point stars in the southern hemisphere have a different path that's something to be addressed different constellations I've heard that a lot I've heard some some interesting and thought-provoking arguments against the Flat Earth saying then the southern hemisphere the constellations go the other way let's just focus on one argument because two minutes is not realistic I'm how I'm how I'm sure I bring your argument I literally I'm giving you a good argument because I've thought about this some like that the stars in the southern hemisphere are moving in a way that may contradict the current Flat Earth model okay also the Sun rising in the East setting in the West and of course the pre Jesus philosopher Eratosthenes who apparently calculated the size of the earth on the orb okay so those are the points that need to be addressed and you have two minutes yeah so the the southern star trails for one obviously the direction is not a problem at all it's just merely perspective if you look south they look like they're going the other way they're all just rotating one way every star in the sky goes east to west right so clockwise counterclockwise they're relative perceptive directions yeah I guess the stronger argument you should be making is that it supposedly goes around a central point rotating and how would it rotate around that point well actually we have observations of people in the south where it doesn't match where the where it should be that the actual cardinal direction it should be on the globe and then of course we're not against all the the magnetic declination corrections when you see the star trails and how it's like oh well that's not really south because I have to correct 78 degrees according to my globe declination map so long story short where you think that you're seeing it perfectly it's kind of an assumption that isn't actually what always happens and it's been replicated even with the dome it'll just reflect out the central part and it'll look like it's rotating the other way around I do agree that the star trails if you never have heard this you can just say that it doesn't make sense but you have to like look into it see some visualizations there are demonstrations that show it this is exactly what I predicted would happen though no one ever addresses the falsification of the our value and they say look at this guy explain the world so we have Sun sets east and west on here you said I don't know why is that a problem for the earth it's all been perfectly replicated we can predict every single celestial phenomena actually Shane made it modeled it all out for you guys because you love models and then of course to to try to make it in the two minutes we have very simply like I said and this wasn't addressed there's two different words one is used for ball or sphere and one is used for circle Isaiah specifically uses different terms right and one of which he uses for the earth is a circle I don't care what American England I dictionary said two hundred years later that doesn't change it all right we're about to send it back over and I want to do a follow-up just like I did with him with the church like is there's other there's questions I have with the Flat Earth Model Austin how do you explain that in the southern atmosphere the days are longer in this summer shorter in the winter and they have allegedly I've never been there but allegedly there's 24 hours of daylight when you get close to the South Pole when you get really south and chilly like would that mean the Sun would have to go faster on that like that to me is pointing towards a heliocentric and how would you clarify that like how would you clarify the very long days in the southern hemisphere in the winter in the very short days in the in our summer yeah so it's it's the same it's the same way that the globe explains how the earth spins faster at the equator than at a northern or southern latitude so you have tangential velocity and angular velocity meaning it can continue to go at the same angular velocity what go faster so in the south they would have to be speeding up like in tangential speed tangential velocity but it could just maintain the same angular speed it'll give you a longer day because the Sun is going to be over a portion of it longer and then as to in this this ties in the end of that answer also ties into the next question you asked which is like say the 24-hour Sun well we don't actually see the 24-hour Sun itself right they doctor footage so but we see the daylight and the daylight is hasn't replicated also with a dome if you have a dome like the scriptures blatantly say with the firmament it will actually reflect around in something called a coffee cup caustic and it reflects around the entire brim of a dome so the 24-hour sunlight is not a problem for the plain earth the 24-hour Sun would be and they passed around this footage of a supposedly 24-hour Sun for two years and we found out that they faked it they came out and admitted that it was faked so yeah that kind of answers both of those questions if there if there's a container yeah cuz 24-hour Sun I don't think it is possible on a flight like it would have to be like a glow you know what I mean like if it's going all the way around if you saw this Sun all day long it would have to be a ball but you're making the claim that they faked that footage and I've never been there but you see Pastor Shelley I'm I'm going both sides here can all right yeah yeah I'm about to swing it back over to you so let's do another two minutes each and then I'll let you guys kind of go back and forth a bit and then we'll do some closing statements or do you want to take questions from the audience whatever you guys want or we can go as long as you want I'm feeling good about this good job with the ad hominems I want you to know that I wasn't being a dick it really does help all right two minutes Pastor Shelley go ahead well what Austin said does not explain why there's seasonality in the southern hemisphere and you see longer daylight cycles because specifically it's the tilt of the earth it's the tilt of the earth that causes that so in some parts of the season the tilt is angled more towards the Sun so it gets more daylight if if the earth was a was not tilted then you would have just perfect 12-hour daylight and nighttime seasons and near the equator because it's virtually the same distance to the Sun no matter where it orbits the Sun that's why it's at 12 but when you go in Dallas sometimes it's 14 hours during the summer sometimes it's 11 hours for the winter cycle that's due to the tilt of the earth and it being slightly further away from the Sun it's not about the tangential velocity that he brought up so he's just flat wrong even on our viewpoint specifically when it comes to Isaiah 40 22 I just wanted to comment because if you read the Douay Reims which was translated in 1500s in the 1500s they translated Isaiah 40 verse 22 as the globe of the earth the 1602 purificada the Spanish Bible said a global de la tierra which means the exact same thing globe of the earth if we look at the King James where it says circle of the earth we all understand that we don't live in a two-dimensional world and so that's why it's relevant what that would mean in a three-dimensional world and I brought up now you get more time I miss 30 seconds go ahead okay sorry and it's important that the sphere would be the definition so that we can understand what we're talking about here I did want to also comment when he brought up the idea of explaining Michelson Morley or any of these other things he's really just not addressing the issue when he talked about the stars in the northern in the southern hemisphere he did not give a response that made any sense it's very clear that we're looking at it from two different perspectives it would be upside down okay it's been two minutes so I'm gonna follow up a little bit because you're claiming he's not giving any argument but you know like what's your evidence for the tilt of the earth you just stated that as fact and said he was wrong so what is your evidence that the tilt of the earth is why the days change the seasons because obviously I learned that in school we all know about the tilt of the earth how do you state that as a fact and what is your evidence so they have there's multiple evidence is number one part half the year of northern are the North Pole is that's observation I I'm not trying to be rude to cut you off but evidence isn't an observation so when you say there's a longer day in the northern hemisphere that isn't evidence that the earth is tilted that's an observation and then you make a hypothesis and then you're supposed to do a test and experiment and then you're supposed to get a theory test the theory that's actually the scientific method when you say the stars look different it's a globe that's actually the first step of the scientific method is observation then you make a hypothesis then you prove the hypothesis so what is the evidence that we are that the earth is tilted well the way people did calculate this was based on observations of daylight being different so if I can calculate the difference of how much daylight there is then I could calculate the tilt of the earth and seasonality and the fact that we have summer and winter and the fact that we have full daylight northern and southern pole so based on I'm not being biased you can count on science you you saying my dog is slow therefore he ate a shoe it's like you just if you make an observation that there's different days and seasons and all that and then you say therefore it's a globe you have to prove how about the tilt of the earth right and you don't even know how they came up with the tilt of the earth so you like do you know how what is the experiment that shows that we are on a ball that's tilted not an observation with a hypothesis what is the evidence what it what shows that we are on a globe that's tilted what is the evidence because you stated it as a fact so so if I if I go in a spaceship and I observe that the earth is tilted that is not evidence your model says you wouldn't be able to see that the earth was tilted in space see this is what I'm saying that you you don't know how it happened but the way it is the Sun moves on an ecliptic we have an analemma and they saw that the Sun moves through the sky at an angle and they said okay well if we assume we're on the earth as a sphere moving that must mean the earth is tilted causing the illusion that the Sun is on that circuit so I want to make it clear that when Austin brings up every observation he's not allowed to make that argument so any observation he's ever made seeing the distance of anything or anything he's ever seen cannot be brought as an argument because somehow that's not evidence like I don't know I'm making sense no you can do an experiment yourself like snipers you know you can do those experiments and with the scientific method and do all that a hypothesis is not evidence like just a theory Einstein was famous for that me observing the Sun for 24 hours and the North Pole is not a hypothesis that matches the Flat Earth prediction why wouldn't that work on a Flat Earth because it's also observed on the South Pole the South okay so it's the same if you have if you have half of the year where you can have total sunlight in the North Pole and then the other half of the year you have total sunlight in the South Pole that's proof of two different things the sphere and the tilt of the earth because the only reason you have the same the sunlight is because since the globe is tilted towards the Sun while it's rotating it still has daylight but this South Pole doesn't because it's turned away from the the Sun whereas when you're on the other side the South Pole is now getting 24 daylight 24 hours and the North Pole does not have 24 out of LA this is observed by people in Alaska and even parts of Russia and specifically in the now it works on a flat earth and the South Pole no it doesn't work in the South Pole boys let me just interject real quick just to get us back on track because that is a valid model so I'm just gonna ask you this pastor Shelley let's say that is true like what you just described I understand that makes sense that is a possible model I want to hear what your opinion is do you think it is possible that there is another possibility that explains the phenomenon you described or does it have to be the tilted globe is that the only possible answer to that phenomenon you witness or could it be another one are you capable of saying that it could be something else or is it have to be what you just described well based on those just if we're just isolating just those simple observations of course that doesn't give us the full model absolutely not I think it's a combination of multiple evidences all pieced together that all tell the exact same story cool great so you can't admit that that like observing something doesn't solidify your model even if your model does work well again if I see a literal picture of the sphere if I go out in space and see this picture of the sphere that single proof you've never been in space though but you notice you can't claim a spatial observation because you've never been in space that's true I've never been inside the White House we run into a wall here we run into a wall because I've never been Antarctica I'm I don't know what they're there I can't prove a model but we all have to admit that we either have to trust NASA's word which is you know some people have a right to not trust NASA or we have to go to space ourselves or we can admit we don't know you know that is valid that doesn't make someone stupid okay let's go let's swing it over to Austin Austin um I don't know what uh two minutes make an argument and then pastor Shelley will go back and then you know we'll go from there I think we're really accomplishing something here today fellas the people in my chat are saying that everyone's doing good you know everyone's being respectful the key is respect man that's it like as long as we're not yelling at each other and saying everyone's stupid and everyone's evil this is a win-win all right two minutes awesome go ahead yeah so yeah we see the Sun move around us 360 degrees in the north right you can take trips and cruises to go see it that's exactly what's expected on a flat earth right because the Sun is just moving the seasons on the fires as the Sun moves in and out now the exclusivity would come with the south well you can't book there are millions of videos of the Sun doing it in the north there are cruises you can take can you can you take a cruise to go see the 24-hour Sun in Antarctica no we've actually called and asked if none of them exists are there millions of videos of that one no can you freely and privately explore there no you can only go to approve guided tours I know a former NASA employee that was stationed there for six months said he you never see the Sun itself in the sky for 24 hours and he was there during the summer their summer six months so we would need actual verifiable evidence of that claim obviously I don't believe in the claims about going to space either because we've caught them faking things and if I if I catch you faking things and your federal government agency or kind of mo is to fake things why would I didn't you know build my entire worldview upon you doing that what I want to know is how we're shooting radio waves thousands of miles horizontally over large bodies of water when the curvature of the earth should block the radio waves right that means that there is no curvature there blocking the radio waves that now falsifies the radius value so like all these other questions you have wouldn't really matter so we can level with each other and agree that if we falsified the radius value it would falsify the entire globe model and then you can maybe address the way we falsified it that's the most efficient way to have this conversation not just be like well how would you explain this how would you explain that so yeah we we falsify the radius value with line of sight long distance radio wave propagation okay well done Austin let's swing it back to the pastor let's see how he wants to respond to that go ahead you have two minutes air toss then he's already proved the radius of the earth and the circumference he didn't need any of these fancy devices to figure that out but again that's what it's appeal to authority I'm gonna start using the horn okay that's the appeal to authority fallacy when you're in a debate and you say a guy who's dead 2,500 years ago already proved all this I don't have to argue it that's literally a fundamental logic fallacy how's that not a fact of history it's called the appeal to authority fallacy where you just say this guy did it 2,500 years ago you blow the horn when he appealed to Mickelson Moray disprove the earth is moving okay experiment is a famous experiment that can be replicated so Eratosthenes is not a famous experiment that could be replicated I don't know why can't I argue with Austin because he's setting the town you're not being very biased here and and you're not even being fair that's a complete I will take a step back I will take a step back you have to I will not interrupt again I was just saying that's saying Eric Eratosthenes did it is it that's no different than the argument that he made with Mickelson Moray I didn't blow the horn when you said believing in a flat earth is heresy okay I've been very generous with the horn that's not an ad hominin it's my it's you it's it's heresy so you're in a debate with someone that you believe is a heretic and stupid and crazy and I did not blow that damn horn that was the poster that I sent to both of you before the show I mean I I didn't hide that I've preached that I can't I can't go back and un-preach the things that I preached I can't un-honk my horn so what the best we can do is I'll give you two minutes and I'll take a step back can I just ask Austin what was the first point that you brought up I just want to remind myself you just diverted away from the radio waves though radio waves falsify the radius value and we want to talk about everything except for the radius value for some reason but that's what always happens again I don't know that it matters if we focused solely on the radius when we have plenty of other proofs specifically of the spherical earth or when it comes to the orbit such as seasons and again there's there's so many different things that I would love to even just show on the screen I don't know if we're allowed to do that now or whatever but when when it comes to observing things in Antarctica it was brought up multiple times that you can't go there you can't see it there there are people that have circled Antarctica they took a voyage from the southern tip of South Africa and they circled the entire Antarctica and then sailed down into they circled it and so specifically there's pictures video there's all the different information about that specific event so again all all their sides gonna say is that this is just fake everything's fake everybody's an actor all of its CGI all but it's it's just like there's so many people that are physically disproving their claims there's a guy who doesn't have anything to do with this debate who literally filmed a 360 view of Antarctica and you can watch the Sun go around and a 360 view which would instantly disprove their claim so there's plenty of evidences there's plenty of people that have pointed this out it's just they want to ignore that evidence okay that's a valid point Austin how do you respond to the fact that there are people who have recorded a 24-hour Sun and they've traveled the circumference of Antarctica and they put it online and they appear to be unbiased what say you two minutes go ahead yeah so I actually know all about you have to look all into that trip and just map it on a plain earthquake it's not impossible on a plain earth that they sailed in the south it's not like they could see Antarctica the entire time that's not how it worked right so they assume the Earth's sphere and they sail there and actually if you look at the trips that do that the boats can max out of like 30 knots and they're in races but for some reason when they're in the south they're going four knots and that would make perfect sense on a flat Earth as the distance is much greater right so they're traveling further and they're determining their speed based on distance over time assuming it's shorter so if you actually look deeper into those those paths it's not it's actually kind of leans towards the fires position the 24-hour Sun I've always been very honest about that you're right if it's exactly the same as it is in the north that matches the globe perfectly and not not a flat earth okay but then they posted this video out there and they everyone went around Oh flatter us over we dissected and saw that they looped it around actually they they added the beginning to the end and looped it back around and we pointed that out and everyone gas lit us they didn't fake that they ended up coming out and admitting yes we faked it because we didn't have the full 24 hours that were the most popular one with a little watch on the ground where they do it go around they got clouds in the sky with the mountains was admittedly faked and then we caught them faking another one and there's only a couple that I've ever been put there all the government cameras that are out there none of them get 24-hour Sun in their video they have to shut it down conveniently eight hours a day so there's a there's actually a pretty gross lack of evidence for that okay I will hit back a little bit one thing a compelling argument against flat earth is how many people would have to be in on it so all the industries all the people all the people doing these videos all the people doing the cameras how would that be managed if they are intentionally deceiving because that is something I that is a valid point so if you have pastor Shelley saying that you have people that go there and do this stuff and then the answer is they admit they lied or they're caught lying when that number gets big enough how do they all how are that many people lying and deceiving and how is that managed and that just seems like a nightmare to manage so Austin what say you or no we have to that's just a follow-up then I'll kick it back but I'm trying to be unbiased that's a it's a valid thing how are they faking this how are they deceiving how would how would so many people be in on it yeah so most people believe the Ursa glow almost no one's in on it like if there was a really large amount of people lying it would wouldn't be feasible it would remain a lie someone would spill the beans or whatever which actually some astronauts even have come out and said we've never been to space no one's going to space they're lying and the Earth's flat literal former Soviet astronauts but the government right they have they have compartmentalization and NDA so when it comes to NASA I know NASA employees they don't know anything they just do their job the amount of people that would actually have to be lying about this is a very small amount no one doing the satellites would have to be lying because they put it up they assume that the Earth's a glow when actually it's just a transform over a plane etc etc and we can get into all the technicalities which is what is needed to fully understand it but long story short if I found adoption papers and said look man turns out that those aren't really my parents and I came told you my whole life's a lie I was adopted and then you say but wait is that is everyone in the church in it is everyone on the at the schooling on it I'd be like no man they believe that those are my parents most people just think there's a globe most scientists try to explain it within that assumption the amount of people that would have to lie are very very small amounts of people Antarctica is very restricted and then you get into the government compartmentalization astronauts sign ndas all former military Intel etc so it's incredibly feasible that just a few people in the government with ndas would lie about the small little job that they do almost everyone else just believes the lie that pushes it okay thank you we're gonna send it back to pastor shell you have two minutes what say you so the countries that claim that they went to the moon is the United States Russia China India Japan Israel ESA Luxembourg South Korea Italy UAE Mexico and Pakistan so they would all have to be in on the scam 90 countries have satellites at least one person it within their government would have to know that you have NASA your SpaceX Red Bull actually had a guy jump from space and they have videos of the of the globe you have dude perfect literally sent kobe cotton up into space and you have the video I can play the video right now and they even ask him and he clearly says that the earth is not flat it's round additionally have many companies making spacecrafts satellite companies airline companies people have traveled to Antarctica scientists physicists and astronomers who there I mean how can you be a physicist the studying the orbit the tilt and the rotation of the earth regularly and you're not even considering the fact that these are lies or something or that it's flat I mean it's really just absurd to say the least to think how many people are not even questioning their own reality and somehow Austin or other people just they have this truth that none of these people care about I mean to me it seems like you're attacking all these people as if they're just brain-dead idiots because I just understand how I could be studying those models with all of them like that's my career literally and I don't get it he brought up this adoption paper but here's the thing all you would need is one person one of these satellites one of these individuals go up and take a picture of the of the earth being flat and then okay maybe you have some evidence you don't have any of specifically when I'm sorry I'm gonna do a quick follow-up pastor show do you believe that the climate change models are true I think it's theoretically possible that there might be a slight elevation or decrease in the temperature globally but that it's insignificant and that all the propaganda attached to it's a lie so do you think all of the countries that let me just say something when it's like sorry guys our internet just temporarily went down we're gonna try and bring them back on the show and keep it going sorry for the disruption let me message them sorry the internet just like died on us I don't know can you guys both hear us again sorry our router just like died for some stupid minute I apologize no worries I think this is going quite well I'm enjoying it are you guys all having fun any criticisms for me am I am I being biased you can be honest yeah it's at times there's been some inconsistencies but I think you know again if Austin's up for it I wouldn't mind going a little bit back and forth instead of just kind of a force to minute but it's either way yeah yeah we can totally do that I just want to the follow-up was on was on climate change models and how many countries have to be in on it because the point you made was about that and also all the other parts of the Bible because you've made the claim that it's heresy to believe the earth is flat then you have you know job 38 about you know they were on a seal of clay and all that stuff I was wondering what your comments are with all the descriptions of the earth in the Bible that are not a ball and is it a debate like is it a debatable thing or is this a I'd love to talk about any of those oh go ahead I'm not an expert on any of this stuff I'm a Bible almost illiterate I'm just following up with a job 38 about that we're basically on a like a seal of clay like how does that fit with yeah I don't know if my production can pull up that graphic too but there's this chart I've seen and it says graphic too it says like the flat earth Bible verses and it says it's like 200 different references and they kind of appealed all these different things it's pretty small you might zoom in just so they can at least see something scroll up maybe a little bit but you know I think what you're bringing up this is job 38 13 verse 14 this clay under a ringed seal and I've heard that being brought up the problem is that's just not number one that's not what the King James says I don't even know what version that would even potentially appeal to and even additionally the second reference here Isaiah 40 verse 22 is bringing up the Dead Sea Scrolls the Dead Sea Scrolls doesn't say disc it says circle so I think that there's probably some misinformation when it comes to verses and how they fit to this particular model but we can pull up King James says it is turned as clay to the seal and they stand as a garment yeah so yeah in job 38 verse number 13 I want to make sure that's 14 I think I think it's first okay so it's in verse 13 it says that it might take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken out of it it is turned as clay to the seal and they shall stand as garment now in verse 14 it says as clay the word as is an indication in the modern English language of a metaphor so specifically it's not bringing up something that's literal here and clay yes but I mean the earth isn't literally but that but the matter yeah the metaphor is that it's a seal the clay but the shape it would be a you know a circular plane well clay can be formed into any shape you can have a round you could have a spherical pop so clay is just simply going around the and again lack my hands you know around the ring that's spinning specifically but you can shape that clay however you want it doesn't prove but a seal a seal is never a ball and how do you have the an end on a ball like how the ends of the earth the corners of the earth sure these things are rough and I'm no expert yeah but like those words if you're gonna take whoo and the circle thing sure there's no end on a ball and then the metaphor of a seal is a seal is never a ball and so you know is it a debate is it an opinion or is it heresy to believe that that is that that is a reference to a not a ball well again my view of heresy is something that's wrong but when it comes to okay cool oh that's good when it comes to specifically what you're bringing up about the end of the earth if we look at we go to the coast that's the end of Florida or that's the end of the continent right so when we're talking about earth earth can mean a few different things earth could be the entire planet earth could be just the dry land it's described in Genesis chapter one or earth could refer to the people and I think a lot of times the argument is missed because people are attributing the wrong definition for the word earth when it's used so when we talk about the ends of the earth we're talking about the corners and the edges of dry land as they basically in for a continent so of course the end of the and we could look up tons of references of ends of the earth in the Bible and this is very clear talking about bringing people from the ends of the earth on the most of these Flat Earth models that I've seen they don't believe people live in the ends of the earth but the Bible is clear that people do live in the ends of the earth because we're talking about the edges of the coastline we're not talking about the planet itself as a shape because of course I agree there's no end of a globe or a sphere but the Bible doesn't yeah can I say a couple things about this so so earth does mean land right like and I mean it's actually very profound for cosmology because what it's saying is he rose the land up out of the water and that we're surrounded by water everywhere directly antithetical to what they're claiming but just to clarify right 3814 specifically says the earth takes shape like clay pressed under a sill and then its features stand out like garments it's just like how they would seal letters Kingswood sill letters and they would put their clay stamp it down seal the letter with their emblem or their crest it's very specifically saying that it takes shape like that and it says there's waters above it says there's a firmament it says that it's like molten looking glass it says many things this is basically to say that it's heretical would be saying that the prophets were heretics the prophets clearly thought that Hebrew cosmology was true you know this this new idea that like somehow the Hebrew people didn't think that the earth was a stationary plane with a firm it over top of it with water above it has only somehow become a thing as an anti flat earth type of push but most people would say well yeah that's what they thought but they wrote from what they thought right at the time what their limited understanding at the time they wrote through that lens but for sure Messiah came the Hebrew people thought this was what the scriptures said because it does say that right I mean can I mean I ask what you mean while you say firmament when you say firm in it when I believe that is yeah it says the firm it says it's stretched out over top of the earth like clay are like like a tent and we're grasshoppitor and happens within it and it comes from Rakia beaten out strong as bronze and it's described as molten looking glass so it's described as physically holding back water do you believe the firmament is a physical thing like is it a glass dome or I'm just curious what your opinion is I think there is something physical containing the earth yes I don't know what it what is that would you call the firmament yes okay so in Genesis chapter number one when the Bible says that the birds fly in the open firmament what is that it actually says upon the open like the open face of the firmament so it actually yeah the actual words that the translation comes from tells you that they're flying upon the face of the firmament and we know that the birds are in the lower heaven described in the scripture right so there's layers up in the birds fly in this lower layer called heaven there are multiple layers of heaven and there it's all within the firmament it says it flies upon the face of it which makes sense you look up you see the birds the firmament would be behind it why would I clarify because in Genesis 120 it doesn't say that it says the fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven so the King James is saying that they fly in the open firmament of heaven yeah I don't I'm not one of these people that think that the people that wrote KJV were somehow the the arbiters of truth the original word specifically says face of course when you bring up that these people define it a certain way they believe the earth was a globe that flies through space of course they're going to define the terms a certain way I'm not even I don't even want to argue about I don't even want to argue too much about the scriptural part of it I I'm just gonna say my stance is very clear it's blatantly that the earth is stationary immovable and fixed has pillars as a firmament separating the heavenly waters from the earthy waters almost every scholar will agree I'm not appealing to them every scholar would agree with that that that Hebrew cosmology was that the earth is an enclosed immovable plane absolutely can I can I show just some pictures of historical Bibles because frankly speaking from the 13th 14th 15th 16 17th 18th and 19th century we have drawings and Bibles from all of these centuries showing the spherical earth so what you're saying is just to me just saying that's not what I'm saying is all of those people would have told you yeah but the Hebrew writers back then they were riding through the lens of what they knew at the time and they thought they were taking Genesis literal to mean that there were literally waters above us that were being held back by a literal firmament and that they windows of a firmament literally opened up and opened up waters and that the earth was a moveable and fixed who are you quoting saying I mean because the Bible is talking about clouds when it talks about the firmament and you can you can test you can you can actually compare Proverbs chapter number eight with Genesis chapter number one and it's clear that in day two of creation God created the atmosphere which is what's the firmament firmament just means space or expanse and it's just talking about how the waters are separated where clouds were up above the firmament and there's simply the oceans down below so you have waters below the firmament you have waters above the firmament and the birds fly in between the clouds which is in the open firmament that's what the Bible teaches that's what everybody that I've seen write about and talk about have seen and that's what the pictures that I could show right now I could literally show tons of pictures of people with the spherical earth in Bibles from the 13 14 15 16 17 18 century so are all of those people those people strong even the spherical earth you're straw manning what I said I didn't say I didn't believe in a spherical earth okay what I said was that the scriptures specifically say that it's not a spinning spherical earth and that the people what's up you believe the earth is a sphere what no why would I why would I believe there is a sphere and debate that it's not a sphere pastor Shelley has made a lot of points on Aristocles and I've not heard Austin address that yet awesome would you like to if you're are you familiar with the experiment can you explain it how did Aristocles prove that we are on a ball earth I don't want to let you off the hook on that one yeah so that is like the Wikipedia story of how this was all settled but when I brought up the falsification of the radius value he said Aristophanes proved the radius value a long time ago the way he supposedly did this there's only secondary documentation and the two documents actually contradict each other with different stories that doesn't really matter because you can go do it now anyway you put sticks in the ground he used wells and then there's a different story that they use sticks doesn't matter and then the shadow that's cast from the Sun you can take those shadows the angles at which the shadows are cast and you can do the math you can use spherical geometry to get a circumference and of course you get the radius from that now obviously in order to do that you must use spherical geometry so you have to assume the Earth's sphere and you also have to assume that the right razor parallel right because so the Sun has to be super distant where the light rays are parallel and then the earth is a sphere to even begin to do the math to figure it out also admittedly right that if you can't prove it unless you have many many other data points is what the mainstream will tell you and he only used two so like Neil deGrasse Tyson and just to point out how accepted it is in the mainstream will tell you obviously with two status shadows it works perfectly fine on a flat earth with a local light source which is true in fact we've actually replicated it with like a hundred different shadows so long story short he assumed that the the Sun was super far away and assumed there were parallel light rays and then assumed that the earth was a sphere to come up with the value which of course doesn't doesn't prove it because you can explain the same exact observations on a flat earth so I don't even know why they but yeah that's that's just what like the mainstream story is yeah and didn't he believe that the Sun was 1 million miles away not 93 million yeah or yeah it's a super far away even really make this pastor shall we do you believe in mainstream space like trillions of stars light years away nuclear explosions do you believe in like the mainstream space or a different type of space I just would like to know what you believe as far as what the stars are how far away are they stuff like that I'm sure that when it comes to our solar system specifically I probably agree with most mainstream views is what's taught in public school in college and accepted when it comes to distant stars I guess I guess I'm somewhat skeptical of the fact that we could know for sure exactly how far those stars are but I'm not like it doesn't really change anything for me if they truly are as far as they claim they are but you know I don't I think it's impossible to know for sure exactly how far these if it's something's a thousand light-years away or even much further what they claim like it's pretty much improvable in my opinion we can only make hypothesis and predictions and of course they do those and they seem to match what they suggest so it is plausible in my mind but I'm not gonna sit here and say that it's for sure okay pastor show is there any topic you want to explore more that you want to get back into I know I pulled this out cuz just felt like the bickering with you know I was just trying to refocus with the Greek guy is there anything biblically you want to talk about and and go back and forth with Austin well you know I do want to bring up a couple other things that we haven't brought up just just some some newer things right I do want to bring up the idea of solar eclipses specifically and if possible can I bring up graphic 17 just because we recently had a solar eclipse in my part of the country I don't know where you guys are located but in the Dallas forward area we literally experience a solar eclipse and they were able to tell us exactly when it was gonna come they gave us the exact minute marker they could tell us and you can even see one of those plotted down there but these solar eclipses are actually going in all kinds of different directions and from most flat earth views or models that I've seen they kind of just have like a child's mobile where the moon just kind of going in this circular pattern well that wouldn't fit these solar eclipses nor does the flat earth model give you any prediction as to tell you when these solar eclipses are gonna happen whereas the heliocentric model literally does give you these predictions and they're accurate so to me that's not something that we just like made up I really did see the solar eclipse these pathways really do match reality is things that we've observed and seen and they do fit with the heliocentric model so I'm just curious from Austin's perspective you know what he would he would say about these solar and lunar eclipses that we observe that's about pastor shy brings up a valid point that the globe model can make accurate predictions over time which is a good point and Austin what is your answer as far as their ability to predict the eclipses but what's say you yeah just real quick I just want to say I just looked that up it says the earth in the open expansive so it says upon the face of the firm and like I said everyone can look that up but eclipses that the prediction of eclipses aren't exclusive to anything to do with the globe right it's not exclusive to the earth being a sphere nor of the earth moving around the Sun it comes back funny enough in the bow Babylonians the Chaldeans like 2500 BC at the sterile cycle that was built upon before that you can actually go to ADL dot place that's the anti disinformation League so it's the good ADL and you'll find all of this mapped out on a plane we can perfectly map out exactly when it's gonna happen on a plain earth and the Sun and the moon they have their specific cycles they even change like relative positions throughout time and it's just a cycle that repeats and in both situations your prediction gets more and more accurate the closer it gets to the time of the Eclipse so actually if you paid attention they changed the path where the locations of the path of the Eclipse like three or four times in the weeks leading up to the Eclipse even in like the mainstream perfect model and all this stuff right because it isn't about the model it's about the Sun and Moon they have a cycle that there's an there's a clip cycle that we can narrow down over the course of thousands of years and so yeah all of that can like exactly when the Eclipse will be all that is exactly the same regardless of if you think the Earth's a globe or flat or other if you think it's moving or it's not moving use a specific observational pieces of data that aren't exclusive to either one of them so it's a misnomer everyone can go to the ADL dot place and you can see it all mapped out and predicted so is that well that's quite a claim let me just do a real quick follow-up that's quite a claim and I'd love to be able to look that up like I did definitions because if they really did change because I think a globe argument is their predictive ability like it does appear that they have this model that can make accurate predictions over time and I had no idea I can't verify this right now if anyone can did they actually change the Eclipse stuff over the weeks I can't validate or not validate anyway go ahead pastor I'm sorry well they definitely update things within minutes they say like oh we can predict things within five minutes or so and then as we get closer and closer they can narrow it down all the way to second so there is a little bit of a shift but they knew the specific date and around the approximate time way long ago in fact there are charts that can show you specific solar eclipses are going to happen decades from now not just like the next 10 minutes or two weeks they can tell you exactly but from Austin's viewpoint I mean is NASA using y'all's flat earth model to make these predictions and or or they write and they're using I mean are they just faking it they're just making up this heliocentric model for these predictions like I'm just kind of curious how they're coming to these conclusions because you say all these things are faked by them and they're lying about all this stuff but they are making accurate predictions about these eclipses and it wasn't even NASA it's not like NASA's the first one to predict these eclipses these eclipses were predicted in the 1600s 1700s 1800s I mean we've already known these cycles in these patterns and they're not subscribing to a flat earth model specifically so I want to know are the people that are making these predictions are they using your your flat earth model a geocentric model or are they using the heliocentric model yeah they literally use the geocentric model so they use what's called an earth centered earth fixed coordinate system because the observations happen from the earth and no they weren't just done in 1600s like I said they were done in 2500 BC by the Chaldeans it's called the Cerro cycle and they were a flat earth geocentric civilization it isn't exclusive to either one they've reverse engineered the globe from what we see in the sky but like I said the predictions aren't exclusive to any belief and also just to make sure you guys know what I'm saying the date is pretty well known to get the more narrow of exactly when in that day it'll happen you have to get closer to the actual time because of the periodicity of the Sun and the moon over time I'm talking about they changed the location so like the the path of totality they were actually narrowing it down and moving it over by a few miles over that leading up to that moment and this was just well known and accepted and like mainstream articles you could look it up now it wasn't it wasn't like hundreds of miles but my point is just this idea is that there's a specific sphere with a specific size and we know where everything is and we're gonna be able to tell you where the eclipse is that isn't how it works the eclipse is based on the periodicity of the Sun and the moon it's been mapped out since 2500 BC it doesn't have anything to do with the earth being a globe and in fact they use a geocentric coordinate system at NASA with the Cerro cycle and actually the guy that does eclipses for NASA for like 20 years is on the record explaining that they have to use a geocentric coordinate system they do the same thing with their satellites as well so I know so yeah can I clarify the answer your question is yes so do you think the E the ECF is accurate well no because typically the ECF is using a sphere right so I don't even a sphere but but but the sphere isn't really required you know but the point is that even in the current model there's a kinematic and dynamic equivalence which is defense way of saying you know the earth can be stationary in the middle and we can see everything the way we do or it can be moving and we see everything the way we do they use the ECF because it's the most convenient and I would say yeah it's it's more accurate because the earth is in the center I wouldn't I wouldn't believe in this fear part of course but so if you look up the ECI or the ECF on Wikipedia and you just read what they claim about it specifically in the ECI article it'll say that ECF is is fixed in respect to the earth's surface and its rotation and then rotates with respect to the stars and specifically the ECF model is using the coordinates of a sphere to calculate these specific items so I think it's it's crazy to me for you to appeal to the ECF which is using a sphere as its mathematical calculation and then claiming that somehow that it would be a flat earth I mean that doesn't even that doesn't even jive if they're making these models based on a sphere and they're accurate I still don't see from your viewpoint or your worldview how they are coming up with these accurate models it seems like you're cherry-picking that it was you asked me if they use a geocentric model I said yes actually they do and in fact they use a serial cycle it doesn't matter if you think there's a sphere or not it came from a flatter civilization I should explain I answered your question I didn't say that that was evidence that it's flat I said that it's a geocentric model but to answer your question succinctly you can do it either on a plane or a globe it's just what's called a transform so it's just a projection it's a transform and it would be an ellipse over top of a plane or you would have the circles in different directions around the globe okay so you can transform that just like you can transform satellite trajectories and then you just have all of the basically the flower of life over top of a plane so what a coincidence that geocentric plane would have all the planets moving and perfect you know flower of life trajectories same for the Sun and the moon so like I said this is not exclusive evidence either way yeah I don't okay go ahead I don't feel like that answered the question because my question wasn't necessarily centered around that particular nuance it was it was more on the idea are they using a geocentric model which again like they're using the word geocentric is in reference to something right geocentrism is different than just saying something's geocentric geocentric just meaning that you're focused on the earth specifically but geocentrism is the idea that the earth is not moving in the solar system and everything's moving around it those are two different points so when it comes to your viewpoint just because they use the word geocentric doesn't mean that they don't believe the earth is moving in fact they the model is based on the earth moving specifically so the ECF is based on the earth moving and it being a sphere so to me your answer would be that they actually are using a heliocentric model even though obviously that word is used twice so I don't think that you're understanding the question that I'm asking all right you're saying I'm not understanding it but you just made the claim that the earth centered earth fixed coordinate system is about the earth moving it's basically is not based on the rotation in the orbit of the earth yes no it's on a side to real rotation you believe isn't zero this unit or fix coordinate system in moving around it it didn't transform to earth simple inertial frame which tries to begin to make corrections for the spin it's so bad to have the seasons taking place every 24 hours okay so but the score system is just that and your model still man is because which relativity everything occurs on the earth is if the earth's in a state of rest from the earth it's always gonna look like we're stationary so to map everything you just treat it like it's stationary sorry you're breaking up your audio your audio is getting a little clicky we'll come back for your point I understand your point was you're making a very good point I will give your audio just a little rest maybe it'll buffer someone in my chat wants the good pastor to explain a compass I made a circle upon the face of the earth and how that can exist on a on a on a ball I just wanna make sure I understand are we bringing up the Isaiah 40 22 verse again is that what you're saying I don't know I just someone just asked me to ask you that well I I do want to clarify so the so the earth let me make sure I'm getting this interview the earth centered earth fixed model is specifically saying when there's a star that's out here in the distant light even though the earth is spinning that star like traveling towards the earth doesn't change and so they they calculate where on the sphere that specific point would be hitting our sphere even though the earth is continually spinning but that model is specifically based on the rotation of the earth so it's silly to me to then make some kind of a geocentric argument or geocentrism argument when it comes to the circle of the earth you know I believe that that means fear but even if you took it as a literal circle you know the out outward crust of the earth would be a circle and of course God doesn't sit in a two-dimensional world he sends in a three-dimensional world and I have a few pictures if we want to show them on the screen real quick but there's a lot of Bibles that literally have Jesus Christ sitting on the sphere of the earth from the 13th 14th 15th 16th 17th century we could we could show I think either around the images 55 and plus but if you want to show any of those images you can show all kinds of measurements where he's measuring the the sphere with a compass specifically I think there's one that actually even shows him sitting yeah go to image 80 or 62 image 62 yeah here is him literally sitting on a sphere and again some of these are you know obviously kind of symbolic or metaphoric in a sense but at the same time they are believing that the earth was a sphere in Genesis chapter number one it shows the compass which is a reference to Proverbs chapter number eight specifically and so you know to say that Christians have like historically believed in the flat earth would be gaslighting because there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Christians for the last several hundred years have all recognized the spherical earth they drew pictures of it so you're making a claim that all Christians have recognized the spherical earth for like centuries now I wouldn't say all because right now there's Christians that don't I'm just saying that yeah I'm just saying that Christianity in large there's lots of evidences and proofs of Christians believing in a spherical earth throughout history so why did they arrest Galileo for the is wits its mic still using is it working are you back I'll pass it over to you as you're back okay yeah no audio no worries um you know because the reference that you know appeal to consensus is what you're doing I do I didn't do it I'm trying to be a nice person but the whole everybody agrees with me all Christianity I mean that's that's not well just because someone believed it was a sphere doesn't mean it's true I'm not trying to say the Catholic Church which like arrested and punished people for claiming it was not a geocentric earth like according to mainstream none of us can know if Galileo even existed I totally get that but you know to make the claim that Christianity is always backed the globe heliocentric isn't isn't really an argument I mean I get it I think flat earthers can be annoying and you know you don't know God unless you're flat earther and everyone's always been a flatter sir I get it bro I'm totally with you on that but that argument there is a you know it's not really provable can you hear me now yeah we can hear yeah yeah what I by the way just clarify I said the prophets say about you made a couple big points one is the observations require a ball because the movement of the stars when the light comes down it's because of the spinning of the ball okay you can address that and also address the the historical nature of Christians all believing in the heliocentric model go ahead yeah so to clarify I said the prophets and the authors of the scriptures adhered to Hebrew cosmology that's a fact right so to invoke like 1600 interpretation of course you know the globe had started to you know get kind of take over parts of the earth actually not all of it but so that's all I was saying is that the actual authors of the scriptures adhered to Hebrew cosmology and that's pretty undeniable and actually not even disputed in the academic world at all as for I I did kind of address what you followed up and said and that what you're talking about is called side aerial rotation and that's the the stars rotating and in your model that the stars look like they're rotating around us but it's just an illusion because we're rotating making it look like they're moving okay so they're just using side aerial rotation and the ECF actually treats it like the stars are actually moving and that the earth is fixed that's why it's called earth centered earth fixed if the earth is in the center of the universe in any model it can't be moving because everything's moving in relation to it the stillman for your model is we just do that because it's simpler it's easier it's what it looks like from us for us on the earth anyway so we use that coordinate system so just to clarify that there is nothing exclusive to the earth spinning and again nothing exclusive to it being a ball you can transform that over to a plane it's just called a transform and it would be ellipses over a plane and it's it's a projection so pretty simple stuff so does this starts moving this guy what'd you say do we observe stars yeah we see the stars move in the sky and you think if you think that we don't in your explanation of the earth centered or fix would make no sense because the earth earth fix is saying that it's in the exact same position all the time which makes sense if the earth is actually rotating so we see the movement but they're saying it's fixed on a specific point of the sphere so there's a specific point of the sphere that that starlight is hitting all the time but even though the earth is rotating so we see movement but it's hitting the Sun it's hitting the earth at the exact same point that's why you have an earth center earth fixed model you don't even understand what the model is explaining so it's what it's the point sorry I just don't even know what you're I mean this is this is I I don't I want to be nice here but in your own model I feel like this is all going great I'm loving the lack of ad hominem it's creeping up a little bit what do you say we do five minute closing statements we talk about if we learned anything do you guys want me to take questions from the chat your rumble chat or okay so in the rumble chat I will check out the questions in between you know cortisol chasing and and let's do actually let's do three minutes let's do three minute you guys each do a three minute closing statement if any aspect of the other person's argument changed your opinion because I think that's always good you know we're always learning here in the world and I also just personally want to say I think everyone did great much love to your mother I was just trying to make a point I have nothing against your mom obviously all right so since who went first awesome one for yeah let's kick things off with Pastor Shelley doing three minutes closing argument if he learned anything or his points to reiterate his points go ahead just being honest I do not feel like I learned anything new I feel like the arguments for both sides are pretty well established so I don't think that either sides probably ignorant of any of the points we were going to make but I do believe there's thousands of proofs for a spherical earth or here heliocentric model or when we talk about the tilt of the earth and one of those is the fact that half the earth is always lit up which is not shown on a a flat earth model the North Pole the South Pole both have seasons with total daylight which is observed by many different witnesses these plenty of videos of the Sun never setting in the South Pole which would for sure disprove the Flat Earth view there's an abundance of just witnesses in general the spherical earth when we talk about all the astronauts and the space programs and all the individuals involved with our specific viewpoint there are literal videos and live streams from the ISS 24 7 where you can literally just watch the spherical earth 24 7 live streams all the time I guess they'd have to be faking all of that which is thousands of hours of footage the earth shadow on the moon is super clear you can see this from different vantage points in different areas and we can see the shape of the spherical earth through the shadow on the moon from those eclipses the predictions of the solar and lunar models also are compatible with the heliocentric model the experiments Eratosthenes can still be done today and could still get the exact same calculations of the circumference of the earth and if he did believe that the earth was spherical and moving that would just be proof that people already believe that at that time as well you can sail across the sea NASA has plenty of photos you can go online right now and find non fisheye lenses views of the spherical earth I could show you the the images in this the stream today there's videos from other space programs whether be dude perfect Red Bull even SpaceX has plenty of other images and pictures of the spherical earth the seasons don't make sense on them on a flat earth model they only make sense on the tilted orbital model when we talk about the path of the Sun we see it going up and down which is the Bible describes it doesn't get further away and come closer additionally there was the Bible was literally sent to the moon so the King James Bible is actually sent to the moon and in Apollo 8 mission they actually read Genesis 1 as soon as they went up into space which I find really fascinating leap years are also another evidence of the fact of the heliocentric model construction of large bridges the tops are actually further away than the bottoms stars are upside down races around Antarctica the Bible the Bible is compatible with these views and I believe it's really just someone denying a lot of clear evidences when they have a flat earth view I think that there's plenty of evidences out there and I wish that people would appeal to true science and what the Bible says great and we're also going to take questions in the chat and you know let's pivot a little bit I people text me saying they're loving this and we should go a little longer so before we do Austin's closing and we take a couple more questions there's one in the chat from dread Matt how do we see the same constellation six months from now if on a globe you'd be facing 180 degrees then you are now I don't fully understand the question but I hopefully you guys do you want me to go to the next one do you guys get that Austin's got to get his closing right we give him opportunity to go closing so let's do that so Austin will give you three minutes do a nice closing and then we'll do a little more back and forth some questions I'm I'm getting really good feedback I'm not gonna lie I mean your chat you know people don't love me some people are saying that I am a real piece of shit but in general I think this is going I think this is going really well all right Austin go ahead three minutes go so I'm actually gonna run through some of stuff you just said because I you know respectfully what always happens is someone can go Google ways we know the earth is not flat and then they'll just kind of repeat these arguments but what happens is if you look further into each one of them similar to the jq you'll find out that well when you get more evidence you understand more things so the ISS is not 24-7 it cuts off all the time we've caught them faking tons of things you brought up other space agencies I actually just saw a video today of the China space agency showing the earth and it was completely flat horizon completely flat so now all of a sudden I'm guessing we'll throw China out or it won't count Felix Bumgardner showed the curve of the earth from he wasn't anywhere close to space he was only like a hundred and eighty thousand feet up you wouldn't see the curvature of the earth in your model from there anyway admittedly it was literally a GoPro sponsorship shadows of eclipses actually debunked the globe model because if it was a geometric alignment of three spheres which is called a scissor G then as the sphere moves in front of the other one and cast a shadow onto a third spherical object this shadow actually goes from being a circle to an oval back to a circle it actually takes a partial s-wave you can replicate this basic geometry it's because the shadow isn't distributed evenly because the surface at the shadows on is curving and part of its further away from the other part so you can't even replicate those those eclipses with three spherical objects you would have an s-wave shaped shadow so the eclipse is actually debunk it as do selenelian eclipses where the Sun and Moon are both above the earth during the eclipse there's a geometric impossibility I covered the eclipse predictions it goes back to 2500 BC it isn't exclusive to the earth being a globe that's a flat earth civilization we again go to ADL dot place you can see everything mapped out and then air toss knees you brought that back up but I explicitly explained that that isn't exclusive to a spherical earth you can do the same thing on a plain earth if it's a local light source a local Sun on a plane you get different angle shadows as well you have to assume the Earth's sphere assume that there's a distant Sun assume the parallel light rays coming from that Sun and then do the math with that assumption dude perfect whenever they supposedly sent these private trips up to space they like one of the passengers came back and said I thought we were gonna be high enough to really see like the earth and everything but we obviously weren't and it's just a it's a glorified vomit comment basically they float for like a couple minutes I can go do that in a plane nothing special about that and actually the Bible says the Sun goes in and out is actually what it says and so I think I have about 30 seconds yeah so I was just finished by saying this I know this no this sounds crazy and I get it but I can assure you that the people that say that the earth is flat it wasn't because they wanted to they fought it it was uncomfortable no one was to publicly stated just diligently search out the truth I don't I have no beef with you if you don't think it but just go look for the evidence you may be surprised and we can't just blindly hand our worldview over to people that hate us so I encourage everyone to look a little further you may be surprised okay so chat I will take your questions and pastor Shelley you've earned it let's take off the ad hominem cuffs if you want to talk a little shit let's do it because that was extremely enjoyable chat ask direct questions don't get me wrong this framed as a question might so Owen moderates about as well as he denies being a homosexual you see that's that's not a question and I know some of you guys are like you want to trust the chat why is that one's okay again we're doing a flat earth debate and so if you have a question for pastor Shelley I'm sorry if I said Anderson I'm literally retarded I've been up since like 5 in the morning um if you have a direct question just put it in the chat and ask a question this this debate is not about me and rather not I'm secretly a gay here we go North Pole is the center so if anyone has any questions are saying it's well I'm what that it's a globe or that I'm secretly a homo that I'm secretly a homo not possible but I do understand why sometimes people think that I'm really good at the piano and you know sometimes I dress very oddly all right um what do we got here Owen please have Austin explain Genesis 120 and the face of the firmament translated as in the open firmament in the KJV Austin go ahead um yeah like I said the KJV is consistently translated with you know certain biases if you go look at the actual Hebrew it says like upon the face of the firmament that's what it says you can go look it up and you can use use Bible hub for that right Bible hub go look it up so yeah basically it's saying that you see the birds upon the face of what's up above it the firmament so if properly translated is not what it says in KJV and compare perfectly comports with the rest of the description which is that there's a physical container over the earth called the firmament is there a bypass you would you like to respond and bear in mind yeah is there a is there a Bible version you would say this is this is accurate I read what's called the scriptures version but I I don't think I think men are fouled fallible right I I also don't think you have to get everything perfectly right or the Creator hates you but I use stuff like Bible hub I think it's very convenient we have the internet you can go look at the original languages see all the different translations you know I think that the grips Greek Septuagint is much more reliable it seems like some Jewish people got a hold of things and changed it in anyway um no I wouldn't say there's a infallible translation in English now certainly not you speak Hebrew or Greek no but that's before we get into that we have a really good question here if Owen is not a queer why does he act and dress like one can anyone answer that that is a good question pretty good making babies making babies as a cover I guess I just think it's so funny like so if you're not a homo then what's up with all right does anyone know if it's a sin to listen to flat earth nonsense I'm pretty sure this falls under thoughts of foolishness faster Shelly is it a sin to listen to flat earth nonsense well the Bible says the thought of foolishness is a sin so any stupid thought would be a sin and if the earth is a sphere which is my position then believing it's not would be stupid it would be idiotic and I've preached that many times over because I don't want people to subscribe to things that are stupid the Bible says the simple believeth every word and I don't want people to believe stupid things I don't want people to discredit the Bible or Christianity or conspiracy theories and I feel like this specific movement denies a lot of reality and so it is stupid I feel like a lot of people that are flat earthers usually smoke pot and do a lot of hallucinogenic drugs and it's probably just a result of that okay citizen lands with a super chat I will put those above the other ones because that means you're you know you're contributing a little bit to the pastor's flock to Shelly believe the pictures of the dark side of the moon are real why is the earth so much larger in frame compared to the moon than the earth photoed from the surface of the moon itself yeah I know they're bringing up so specifically there's a picture from I believe Apollo 8 mission where it's a simply got these that iconic half earth view and then it's just kind of showing the little bit of surface of the moon and then they have a really scaled out framed view where they show like a much larger earth and moon but again that's just simply perspective because the moon got a lot bigger as well in that particular frame so it's really there's no problem whatsoever they're just not understanding perspective or where the picture was taken from obviously if you take a more zoomed out view the earth is going to get larger okay oh and please have pastor answer how the earth can be orbiting the Sun if the earth was made day one in the Sun day for Joshua Sun stopped Isaiah Sun moved backwards why do you think the prophets of the Bible did not say this the earth moved and they said the Sun moved and how did the earth revolve around something that hadn't been created yet what say you I would say the first question that the earth was not orbiting the Sun before was created so I don't believe that it would have been obviously and then secondly he's bringing up in Joshua where the Sun and the moon stood still specifically it says that the moon was in the valley of Azulon and I of course would have subscribed this as being a miracle it doesn't matter what model you have it's obviously a miracle because God even said specifically there was no day like it before or after from a spherical heliocentric viewpoint all God would have had to do was simply just stop the rotation of the earth and the Sun and the moon would have stopped as far as their movement specifically so of course this would be a miracle if God stopped the rotation of the earth for a 24-hour period of time both the moon and the Sun would have stood still as far as their respective positions to the earth so there's no problem with that except for obviously it's a miracle there's no way to describe this as a natural phenomenon but why do you think they didn't say that the earth stopped spinning now why would they say the Sun stopped what's an earthbound perspective so everything's from an earthbound perspective so the Sun stopped as far as its circuit around the earth from an earthbound perspective or viewpoint that doesn't it doesn't really matter how you want to word it it's just from everybody's perspective if I'm in a car and I'm moving and someone's standing outside of the car I have my perspective in the car and I'm moving towards them and from their perspective you know they're standing at rest so you know you could look at it from two different angles if they slam wouldn't they say the car stopped like would they say that tree stopped moving if you stop the car you could say you could say it for me the yeah yeah all right how do you explain I don't know this is true this is too but Preston throws in a fiber so he gets a little priority even though a lot of people want to know why I suck so bad how do you explain the phenomenon of star trails and long-term exposure photographs which show circular patterns centering around the South Pole as this directly debunks the Flat Earth model Austin what say you yeah I explained that earlier it can be replicated with like a dome and basically just reflecting out you also see crepuscular and it takes some explaining but like the Sun can set in the West and this is wild and so you'll see the Sun setting in the West and then there will be rays converging on the horizon in the east at the same time looking like there's a Sun like a light source over there that's because that's how our perspective works it literally has a limit we have a limit in all directions basically we have a dome of vision and everything towards the edge of that starts to converge and compress and so it's literally a real thing called crepuscular and anticrepuscular rays so you can't really deny that it happens and if that was going to be applied to the sky over top of a plain earth it'd be the same thing and again when they claim that it's going south actually they use major magnetic declination corrections on the globe it needs to be directly south that we're seeing it right but why do we have to correct 150 degrees 80 degrees 90 degrees to claim that we're seeing it in the south so it's not exclusive to a globe earth I do get that if you believe the directions corrections are correct you'd be like oh isn't that convenient it matches the globe it doesn't until you correct the cardinal direction with declination and it can be explained with vision like crepuscular and anticrepuscular rays so yeah there you go okay any response good pastor and I'm trying to find more on yeah that was really really stupid and of course the earth is orbiting the Sun and so that's why you have to make certain adjustments to when you look at these things but like the commenter said obviously this this the view of these stars in the South Pole totally disproves the Flat Earth dude the orbit in the Sun has nothing to do with magnetic declination corrections but has to do with the observation of stars which was the what the question was about so of course you're strong we have another solid question we have another question from Bobby O Jimbo how do Flat Earthers explain Ecclesiastes 1 6 when it says that wind goes around the earth towards the south then back to the north who's the question for I'm guessing Austin because it contradicts yeah I think it's ladder for Austin yeah yeah so what why would that be a problem I mean all the evidence actually shows that we're basically in a torus field so if you actually look at the paths of the planets they all make a perfect torus field geometry the flower of life that we see everywhere and so there would be a central portion that's a vortex right and so you would have a pattern moving in and out and relative to the torus field that's actually what we see when we map out the magnetic flux data that's what we see with the wind patterns mapped out on the earth we actually see them all moving around in the vortex motion so that's no problem actually I would say that the problem is where it says that the winds come from the ends of the earth and it's the windiest place on the earth and that there are corners where angels have something to do with the wind would be a problem so people really like to pick and choose where the Bible is literally talking about the earth apparently but anyway the north-south thing works perfectly on a plain earth so there's another one is for the pastor Bible Matrix said he used a compass to draw a circle upon the face of the earth face equals flat spheres have zero faces and then he says something mean about the pastor that I'll skip because I'm still following the ad hominem thing job 38 14 is an analogy that's not exactly a question but you did super chat okay pastor can you please name which Baptist confession of faith states you must believe in one another's shape of the earth in order to be baptized you're mistaken about what a heresy is Pope Shelley who that's very aggressive so there's not a confession that subscribes to that so it it's just a straw man argument but specifically you know I do have a doctrinal statement on our website it doesn't bring up the flat earth I would never throw somebody out of church for believing in the flat earth but I I would take offense to anybody teaching false doctrine and if someone's teaching with a heresy and told not to teach that then they may be excommunicated from church but that's the point of Church Church should be a group of people that all agree and have similar viewpoints otherwise it's not a church it's just a club or something so so if someone was teaching a different view of the clay seal or some of these other interpretations they would you would kick them out of the church if someone was going around to all of my church members trying to tell them that they believe the earth is flat and I I kind of addressed it with them and said hey that's not what we believe here and and you can't you know go around just teaching people all this stuff and they continue doing that then yes I would potentially throw them out of church but that wouldn't be limited I'm kind of cultish well if you don't have any doctrinal integrity then you don't have a church I mean what's the point of Mac and check says to the pastor God oh that's insulting I'm trying not to be insulting hey can I say something I just want to you want to know what he thinks about this real quick because this is like the elephant in the room for me right so you guys call Zionism we're we're on page there ADL attacks you you automatically get points for that that means you're probably saying something based right that's cool what do you think about the fact that the the MMX showed that the earth wasn't moving and then they bring in Einstein who gives Jewish mysticism to the world and says that time slows down and the ruler contracted but looks like it's the same size trust me bro and it made the earth look like a stationery you it's Jewish mysticism saying that the Creator created a giant illusion to deceive us into the earth being stationary do you actually believe that well to address your earlier part of the question first of all you kind of claim that this Hebrew cosmology or these Jews believe that the earth was flat and then you get mad about other Jews so it seems inconsistent I don't really care about Einstein because people believe in the spherical earth before Einstein ever even came into existence yeah of course I believe that the modern day Jews are the synagogue of Satan and that they lie about all kinds of different things but vast majority of Jews days probably believe that the earth is a sphere I would assume that most of them probably would subscribe to that when it comes to all of the things that Einstein said you know I don't really I don't really know it doesn't really matter to me special relativity is claimed to be evidenced consistently in satellites falling towards earth so you know I don't have any reason to doubt that claim so perhaps it's true again it doesn't it doesn't really matter to me because it's infinitesimal measurements that you have to preach approach the speed of light to really even have a dramatic effect of special relativity but when it comes to Jews it's not like just because someone's ethnically a Jew they're wrong about everything literally that's not what I was saying man that's not what I'm saying is he came in and he came up with some crazy mystic story and that's why it was dismissed by the Germans and he's copying Hendrick Lorenz though so like you know it's not even this either model but it didn't work I'm just gonna say I don't I mean you're wrong about a lot of stuff you're saying you don't special relativity isn't about orbits falling no that's general relativity special activities about straight paths not in this in the presence of gravitational fields I was just wondering what you think about the fact that your belief has to think that the Creator made it so when we try to measure the earth moving time slows down but looks like it stayed the same and the measuring apparatus contracted but looks like it stayed the same so that it'll look like the earth is stationary that's what Einstein did after he stole like 30 different pieces of work and put it together so I didn't know if you any bro created with his cousin he had a child with his cousin well just clear you're you just said her daughter he said special relativity has nothing to say that's provably wrong special relativity is proved if you just look up the Wikipedia article they will tell you time dilation is experienced by satellites falling to the earth if you just read what they say so whether or not you I mean it's Wikipedia I mean I'm not I'm not saying that it's right I'm just saying that that's what they say and you just told lying about it it's called atomic clocks their cell degradation that has anisotropic degradation because they use magnetic fields to realign the oscillation you just research this stuff man just reading like a sentence on Wikipedia what what's a lot you lied because it's satellites are about atomic clocks and then what they do is they have nine billion relativity and time dilation is claimed to be observed on satellites falling towards earth and the way they clean atomic clocks okay so when you actually go research it the first test I was supposedly gonna verify it showed that it didn't match relativity's prediction and it changed in both directions both east and west and they still don't have an answer for that and they make relativistic transform corrections for it so just reading a sentence off Wikipedia doesn't tell you the truth of the subject I've been forced to get all nerdy and research a million things because of stuff like that what the story you're saying isn't true so now I have to go read all the history and say it all the time it's really why I'm just I was just pointing out what they claim that's all the that's the only point I was making and you're you basically said that what Wikipedia is saying isn't really on Wikipedia or something it was it's just all right Mac and Jack 33 says to the pastor God states explicitly in Psalm 31 93 one the earth cannot be moved yet you say we're flying a million miles per hour through space did God not know his own creation worked until man corrected him that's a question about Psalm 93 one again these are not my personal opinions I don't even understand what's happening yeah that's great so this is on that chart specifically that we brought up Psalm 93 verse 1 and it says in the King James the Lord reigneth he is clothed with majesty the Lord is clothed with strength wherewith he hath girded himself the world also established that it cannot be moved so in Psalm 93 verse 1 it says the world and another one of it you've pulled that chart if you see the very next Psalm they have in reference is Psalm 96 verse 10 and Psalm 96 verse 10 clarifies this because it says say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved he shall judge the people righteously and if you skip down to verse 13 it says before the Lord for he cometh for he cometh to judge the earth he shall judge the world with righteousness and the people with his truth so of course when the Bible says for God's will of the world it's not talking about the planet it's talking about the people so many times these references are very clearly talking about the people of the earth the people of the world or just people in general and it clarifies in the Psalm specifically so yes I do believe this and the Bible talks about the world fearing the earth fearing that's not talking about the planet fearing that's talking about these people specifically so people are just taking the wrong interpretation of these particular verses and then claiming that I'm somehow ignorant of them but if you actually compare scripture with scripture and you look at it it's just talking about the people there's no problem here and specifically the earth you know it moving there's plenty of verses that literally say that the earth is moving there are verses that literally say the more the earth moved exceedingly so these people are cherry-picking verses and when we actually look up other references the Bible talks about it like earthquakes though is it like earthquakes are moving or is it like spinning both well it's not talking about it spinning I'm not gonna I wouldn't say that there's a verse that I could point to that says that specifically but I'm just saying they're cherry-picking verses that claim it never moves in any capacity whereas the the Bible does bring up the fact that the earth moves and when there's the great white throne judgment the Bible says that the heaven and the earth fly away so you know there's plenty of evidence from its previous stationery well again I'm not gonna sit here and say that let's move let's move on let's move on we got more right real right technology this is this is big Austin the LGBT supports a global birth model in your opinion does that make Pastor Shelley a gay it's a pretty compelling argument I have to think about it for a second so what's your what's your call on that one I mean sounds pretty a lot of babies too right you got you got a bunch of children right I have six yeah you're crushing in that sense I'm all for it well okay as much as Owen Benjamin is just kind of a prick at the beginning of the show we do have a lot of people watching so thank you for you know I guess being a prick or whatever it is it's caused people to watch the show we got a minute I haven't been a prick during that like I was getting a little intense in the beginning I apologize if I was too intense I was just really trying to have a productive debate and I think it kind of paid off a little and you know I feel like we're having a good time right yeah I just wanted to make fun of flat earthers during the debate but I see the point in just no now you can now now it's open of course it's funny that like the flat earth there's always no way more about everything I've never experienced that in fact most of the flight others I've met have been some of those wicked evil people I've ever met in my life they're criminals they steal they do drugs like I'm not saying that that's representative all flat earthers because that would be an unfair characteristic but I am saying that the people that I know spin my personal life there's some of the worst people I've ever met that not saying that 90% of the most evil people I've ever met all were globers sure I got it wasn't my point I said that this fire there's are way more informed can you admit that we research way more of this stuff and isn't it interesting that there's one side that researched a lot of it and then didn't want to let go of the globe and get made fun of and they kind of had to do so once they really research and then the other side just assumes that they're stupid mocks them's ridicules them but doesn't look into it don't you think that's a weird dynamic no because I find that most people that are flat earthers do not research and they deny reality and they're delusional so like I met a flat earther or there's a flat earther that was a pastor he said that he understood the truth about this and and then he ended up claiming that he's literally jesus christ and his name's tyler doka you can go look at his website right now he literally claims he's jesus christ so i i have not uh found that these flat earthers research well understand reality or the world we live in i think that it's a strong delusion and a punishment for being gullible okay everyone should watch the principle and and learn about what's going on that's all i'm saying all right headstrong says does the pastor have the authority to deem things outside the confession of faith heretical what about deeming things within the confession of faith heretical well again i believe in a pastor-led church so i do believe that the pastor has authority otherwise the the title's meaningless that doesn't mean that the church isn't going to hold the pastor accountable for his viewpoints or their agreed upon creed or confession i mean generally speaking my church subscribes to and agrees with my doctrinal statement otherwise they wouldn't be there and if i stepped outside of that if i actually had austin's view on the bible they would throw me out literally because i don't adhere to the king james bible or the word of god or the inspiration of scripture so you know it's not like it's just my personal opinion that people are adhering to we all have an agreed upon viewpoint that's what a church is it's not people of certain ethnicity or five minutes away from their house it's people that all have the exact same world view and opinion of scripture and we have a core doctrinal statement that we all subscribe to so you know it's just a bunch of straw men to assume like oh whatever pastor shelley's opinion is people are going to do that if i changed my viewpoint if i became a flat earther or said that i'm sure half my church would leave immediately if not most all of it if i deny so you definitely don't have any emotional bias in this at all well i that would be silly to say that i don't hold unpopular opinions i mean i've said lots i preached against flat earth and lost people from my church and i specifically preached plenty of things that cause protests um all lawsuits we've been evicted i've been i'm probably the most canceled person that i even know uh i'm on a a credit card blacklist would just be one step too far don't you agree like it's i don't care i would i would preach flat earth if it was true i don't really care i have no person i'm gonna give up i'm gonna get pastor shelley a little props i'm gonna give pastor shelley little props from my perspective uh he does seem to believe it doesn't seem like he's lying and i do understand people that don't want to uh like bicker a ton in church like uh our homeschool group just doesn't debate a ton of stuff and i love that so it's not i'm not just gonna immediately say that there's something wrong with that i'm just no i agree with that i agree with that but you know you're pretty aggressive against flat earthers that's the difference right like just saying oh let's not talk about it's a little different well i'm talking about it i agree with the general sentiment what i'm talking about it right now yeah yeah it's all good it's all okay you are obviously quite aggressive sure i'm not i'm definitely very aggressive and i'm very hostile towards that view but but here's the thing i don't want people to believe stupid things like i don't want people to get covid shots i don't want people to vaccinate their children i don't want people to commit abortion i don't want people to think that men can turn into women like i'm gonna be hostile towards things that i think are not true yeah you believe this is what i think the same thing i you believe that everything in the world is backwards that the creator made this place to trick you where everything's the opposite of what we experience and then you probably don't even know right that mainstream astronomy and astrophysicists will tell you that the earth could be in the center of the universe and there's a kinematic and dynamic equivalence and you can never disprove it we just don't like that idea of being special and i could quote every mainstream most famous physicist ever knows that but the general public doesn't know that right you don't know that you probably think that's not true i must be wrong the earth can be in the center and special and they're lying and so i would say i think that has significant implications right like if you think everything's backwards that's how that's how they did covid they're like no the air that keeps you alive is going to kill you and even though people are healthy they're sick and when you can't trust your senses and find the truth yourself you have to turn to authority and you become enslaved so i you know i think that's the reason that this is pretty important i don't feel enslaved potato i mean when it comes to the biblical viewpoint i don't think god's tricking us at all the bible is clear that the sun moon and stars were made for the seasons and for the times and it's clear that's what we get our calendar from the year is from a orbit of the earth around the sun we have a day because of the rotation of the earth we have a month generally speaking because of the moon's orbit and that's how the original hebrew calendar was calculated and on a flat earth model none of those things even exist anymore there's it's arbitrary what's a year or a day and we of course get the week from the creation week the seven days so all of our calendar has been based on those specific cosmological viewpoints god is not tricking anyone you can see the sun rise in the east and set in the west which is telling you either one of two things either a we're spinning or b that's spinning around us but if the sun were moving around us in that way the sides of the earth would not get this daylight that we observe plus you'd have things breaking the speed of light considering how far that they are away and so you know it's there's no trick here it's really simple it's really easy to understand that the bible and this viewpoint heliocentrism or the spherical earth are compatible with scripture and i wish that people would subscribe to the king james bible because i believe it's word perfect it's god's word he gave it to us and it doesn't have any mistakes and if you read it clearly it's not going to lead you to that conclusion yeah okay citizen lens citizen lens says does the pastor believe that photos of the globe earth taken from space are real was the moon landing broadcast live it was one of his first points so yeah do you believe that the moon landing was broadcast live and do you believe in the photos uh taken by nasa from space i do believe that we went to the moon i believe that the vast majority of photos from space are very likely true and legitimate they do have raw photo you can go to the nasa's website right now and you can look at lens images that are not fish eye lens fish eye lens uh viewpoint they're raw photos they show the sphere and you know again i i at one point seriously considered the the moon landing being fake because in seventh grade specifically our science teacher did not believe that the moon landing was real and he made us watch a documentary exposing the the moon landing is being faked and i watched the whole thing and i just came to the conclusion that their evidence was not legitimate and when i looked at the other side what they had to point to it seemed very reasonable logical and plausible that the the moon landing was legitimate plus you can go to a museum in houston right now and they have a whole exhibit of how they took the bible to the moon specifically and the astronauts work most of them were christians a lot of them were christians and they wanted to bring the bible onto the moon and they specifically even read the bible on live broadcast the apollo 8 read genesis chapter number one when they were in orbit and when they could see the earth from their viewpoint so you know i believe that all that is legitimate and true we could listen to the audio broadcast right now this just got way worse this got way worse you believe in the moon landing bro like come on bro you can debunk what what do you even believe in the moon like what is the moon i wonder who i believe in is i believe in the people that are asking questions okay here we go fair enough yeah preston taylor 1611 says flat earth is so stupid it causes people with brains to reject the gospel because they think the bible teaches flat earth and it does not that's why we're hostile and aggressive it's damning what say you austin yeah i mean uh in reality to believe that the bible's true and that the earth is is a globe right you have to say that the biblical descriptions are figurative or metaphorical and you could say the same thing in any scenario right i mean that's what's required literally unless you twist what it says but actually what happens bro is tons of atheists discover that there is actually in the center of the universe and that we were grossly lied to about it and all the physicists and natural physicists know about it and then they're like wait a minute this changes everything and then they re-examine the bible as as potentially viable again because there is no denying a creator if the earth's in the center of the universe and then they're like wait the scriptures are giving us a lot of descriptions and now we discovered that the earth is not we thought it was it's brought way more people to the scriptures than it's turned away from the scriptures that's a very wild argument but uh anyway that's my response pastor would you like to respond um yeah again i i think that when i meet people that are flat earthers they're not they don't care about the bible they don't care about it being um preserved they don't go soul winning they usually don't take church attendance very seriously you know i'm dedicated to going to church reading the bible memorizing it studying it i go out soul winning and try to evangelize people with the gospel and most flat earthers the only thing they won't ever talk about is the shape of the earth um well you just you did admit you wouldn't let them in though so i didn't say that i said that i just wouldn't let someone go around evangelizing that theory to every single person or just saying their opinion about it well they can have an opinion there's a difference between expressing your opinion and going around teaching people like so if someone kind of so so someone said like hey do you believe the earth is flat and they said yeah i do i'm not going to throw them at a church but if they're like trying to take it to their house and teaching it secretly and trying to go against the church like it wouldn't matter what doctrine it was it just wouldn't be healthy for a church specifically a church needs to have you're saying they couldn't go tell people outside of the church that is so crazy they couldn't be taking people to to a side or into their house and trying to teach against the church because then there's no point in going to our church like if you don't have any if you don't have any kind of consensus um as far as like what you guys believe like it doesn't make sense like if i believe the king james bible is the bible we should use but people are going around saying no we should use the niv well then we're going to say hey this person can't be part of our church because they just don't even believe you know what we believe you realize that the prophets and everything how would you real quick how would how would you monitor what people are teaching in their house like what would be the way to figure out who's going against it yeah i don't monitor anything whatsoever so it would just simply be if people came to me if you heard about it if people came to me and just said hey this person is teaching this false doctrine and multiple witnesses came to me and told me all that then i would address with them and say hey we believe a certain way we don't want people to you know go against what the church's teachings are so if you don't agree maybe you should find a different church that agrees with you on that particular issue and if not then we'd have to take it before the church and it could elevate to the point of church discipline but again that would be any doctrine specifically what if are this from b smith what if sunday school carpet is debated between solar system carpet or playing carpet who gets kicked out of the church if it's not a if it's not a direct tie to something the bible teaches i don't care cool so the carpet either carpet opinion you're good yeah it doesn't matter nice okay i saw some good questions in there i i really am trying to answer every single one even the negative ones like you i literally don't like should we drink kool-aid austin talk more which is the real denomination like i don't know how austin stays so calm let us talk about that folks the internet just is having a little bit of an issue but we want to bring it back we've been having a great discussion a lot of great questions in the chat you can keep the chat going we're going to bring them back in here in just a second apologize for those technical difficulties hopefully we'll get that fixed in the future but we should be getting them rejoining here in just a second again and i really appreciated a lot of the questions in there um i wanted to see if we could address a couple more with uh owen someone said i'm a nasa lover someone said let austin talk more someone said a museum lol preston taylor that was we read that one he read that one out loud nasa are devil worshipers says jesus loves you 777 the moon is flat it's a two-dimensional point of light in the ferment it's small and local i've never we're back in business yeah sorry about that no it's all good i think we're really cooking uh all right cool so uh we can keep going what do you guys want to do you want to answer a few more yeah i think so there's some good questions in there let me know if you see any questions or you can just and you can just state the question and answer it if you see something i i don't uh why is the sun and moon seen at the same time during the day that's just simply because the moon is orbiting the earth and so at at any point they could line up i mean that's what we literally saw was the solar eclipse not that long ago where the moon literally was in the direct path of the sun for some people in the united states and they saw that solar eclipse i'm curious do you think that that was really the moon in front of the sun or do you think it was something else yeah if it was the moon it works on a flat earth i didn't see the moon approach or leave it so i don't know but if it is it works on a flat earth so i'm open either way in fact it only works on a flat earth i just want to say this one more time so the audience knows this is really crazy you can try this at home it cannot be what the globe model says because if you take a sphere and put it in front of a spherical light source and project that onto another sphere the shadow does not remain a perfect circle as it crosses the face it actually turns into an oval and then goes back to a circle because of the geometry of the object the shadow's on so i know that it's not a spherical earth casting a shadow or that it's just two spheres casting a shadow it just isn't physically possible so i don't know i think that we're not supposed to fully understand the heavens i think we're supposed to admire them just for clarity i just want to make sure are you saying that you agree that the moon moved in front of the sun or you're just saying it's possible i'm saying it's possible we don't see the sun approach it we don't see the sun leave it so i'm not going to claim that i mean the in your model you you just say i promise the sun disappears because it's not being lit up or something so i uh the sun disappeared because i watched it disappear and it was actually turned dark in the middle of the day no the moon the moon disappears as new moon for like up to three days 12 hours to three days and you say it's because the sun's not lighting it up and uh you know i go more than the enoch explanation right that it is the cycle and it basically has a relationship with the sun that charges it but i i don't know i'm saying if it was it worked you know that if it's what it says in in enoch i'm sure i'm guessing you don't like enoch but what i'm saying is that women gave birth to 450 foot tall giants so i'm curious no no i don't want to die no the unit that people claim is wrong but it doesn't matter i mean i know that owen's pretty big but i don't think that his mom gave birth but did you get my point that even on a flat earth it would work if it was the moon no it doesn't work at all because it would have to be a sphere specifically and again the patterns i showed with that map show that the solar eclipses do not follow any kind of model that's on the flat earth map so the solar eclipses specifically disprove the flat earth models that are demonstrated and shown see this is where we would have a problem is if if i've corrected you and you go research and find out what i said is true which is that the prediction is not based on that at all it works perfectly fine it comes from a flatter civilization and then you just keep saying it then we're getting in dangerous territory i know maybe right now you think you assume i'm wrong because i'm a flatter i must be wrong i promise you the eclipse prediction isn't in any way specific to a globular assumption and where it's spinning or revolving it's not at all i encourage you to look into it go to adl dot place and you will be able to see all of it explained crush bandicoot seven says uh for pastor shelly we're all the same countries and on the covid vax together i mean specifically i don't know exactly the the widespread nature of the covid vaccines because it seems like it was mostly like the developed countries and then affiliates of america specifically i think that generally speaking i think everybody kind of subscribes to um to the vaccine viewpoint so you know when it comes to vaccines specifically though they have a hard time handing these out to the citizens but i don't really care what these these governments um subscribe to because if they go against america they're going to lose funding and so a lot of times they don't even necessarily agree with these things they just don't want to lose funding or harassment or have sanctions or all kinds of stuff so i don't know that that necessarily proves anything that a lot of countries were in on the covid vaccines i know that some countries even didn't subscribe to them and didn't pass them out in the same way so um haiti they killed them now the point is like uh you referenced all the countries with the moon landing satellites all that the point is pretty obvious uh the countries that don't want to lose funding from a very small group of people in america uh to go along with ever they're told golfer bear says please allow witsit to explain how obvious and gay the moon landing is go ahead wits it i guess the people want to hear that uh yeah i mean in every single way it's obviously faked and gay but the easiest way to debunk the moon landing is the actual amount of time it takes for them to communicate back and forth according to the speed of light and the assumption that the moon is 238 000 miles away a round trip is 2.5 seconds and that means that you cannot communicate any faster than that and uh both ways they respond to each other under 2.5 seconds at times being literally and physically impossible for them to have been actually on a moon 238 000 miles away proving that it was fake we've also have declassified documents to show that the cia had what's called traveling map method in the mid 60s they were highly interested in which is basically green screen so people say oh the technology didn't even exist the cia disagrees they were very interested in um how to fake films right before the moon landing and they used infrared version of green screen but anyway the the communication directly falsifies it obviously you can just talk about how stupid the moon landing is forever from the tweaker hut they called the lander to how fast they talked to the shadows to them popping around to to them dropping things i mean it just goes on forever but you know to each their own american shinobi says shout out to owen the moderator why thank you i could do a better job but i'm trying as hard as i can okay why can you never see stars in any official footage from space whether it's the moon landing or current iss live stream i guess that's a question for pastor shelly well if i just take my phone out right now and i just go take a picture of the sky i probably won't see any stars in that particular photo either so uh it's pretty obvious that sometimes you know when you take certain photos it doesn't have the contrast settings to necessarily capture all of that light when i took a picture of the solar eclipse it did not look like what it actually looked like in real life sometimes cameras are limited and how much light they're going to bring in so you know it's not really a problem whatsoever i believe there is plenty of pictures of stars in the sky because we literally have them so it's just kind of a straw man of just not understanding how lenses or photography even works do we have phones now that you can it can literally adjust exposure settings like multiple times at two different levels in the same picture you could just turn the camera away from a light source there's no videos in space of stars you know why because it'd be way too hard to fake that because the constellations moving in relation to their path we'd be able to catch them faking it so if i show you a video that's when i show you video stars in this in the sky you're going to say it's fake because there are no show me them out in space with the video of stars but we'll look at it and see if it lines up with where they claim they are it doesn't exist though so there's no videos or they're all fake because i want to understand there are no no there are no videos outside of low earth orbit even claim to be real with stars in the videos like none so that's pretty sketchy don't you think don't you think if you went to space in a vacuum all you would see is stars you'd be swimming in a sea of stars the first thing you would do is give people like 4k live stream of just the beautiful i can take this camera outside right now and just point toward the sky and you probably wouldn't see anything so it doesn't really matter i mean you know there's plenty of photographs of the stars so you know i i just yeah i just agree with your earth all right brother it's all good okay well we got some more here if anybody wants to keep going um uh what do we got here this person has written this like a thousand times i don't understand it but maybe someone does owen please ask pastor shelley how there can be waters above the sun and stars since they are above the firmament in genesis and still exist in psalm 148 4 these waters flooded earth and noah's day so again this is um a great question i'm glad that we get to ask it because the bible talks about there's three heavens and the first heaven is what we know is the sky and then we have the second heavens we know is space and the third heavens where god resides so the verses that they're pointing out of waters being above the heaven that's specifically talking about clouds so it's just it's a really easy explanation and it's just that it's just not cool it doesn't preach it doesn't like prove the flatterer so people just reject that very obvious and clear interpretation proverbs chapter number eight it's very clear in verses like 26 27 and 28 it actually gives you the day one two three of creation and it clearly says that he established the clouds so you know that and i don't know if you know clouds are made of water so it's just very clear that the water that's above the firmament is talking about clouds okay someone says austin please take some time to discuss the implications of propaganda and how it prevents one from understanding the truth about earth it's more of a yeah that's a that's a pretty vague question but i want to i will point this out it's very important in my opinion whether you whatever you end up leaving we were not told the truth about this discussion just objectively we were told like it's a scientific fact that's been proven that the solar system's real and we're flying through space if you actually go read stephen hawking albert einstein arthur eddington you name it every astronomer and astrophysicist worth their salt at all in the world will tell you the earth could be in the center of the universe because there's what's called a kinematic equivalence there's actually a dynamic equivalence as well you know fancy terms just means that everything can look like it's moving around the earth or vice versa equally valid but we weren't told that we weren't told that because of the copernican principle they chose to think we weren't special because edwin hubbell said it was intolerable and horrific so that's an example of the propaganda they teach you these stories as if they're fact and science and they leave out all the actual important evidence right so it's basically giving you like a very like select amount of information to guide how you believe and they show you a ball when you don't even know how to think about anything yourself and then you just kind of have an emotional attachment to it so i would encourage people just make up their own mind as long as you can walk away like i made up my own mind then that's better than just believing it okay here's a question for pastor shelley how can pressure of earth's atmosphere exist adjacent to the no pressure of space in an infinite vacuum without a physical barrier the air would violently evacuate i mean again i believe that the explanation is gravity is is holding down parts of the atmosphere and so obviously you can get to a point where molecules can get outside of earth's orbit and just kind of float away but generally speaking it's it doesn't need a container to hold it in it's simply just being held in by gravity specifically and that's just our atmosphere but again people will say that gravity's not real or they'll they'll make all these claims about gravity not being true but it's obvious that things do fall down towards the earth that's just an observable fact so i don't understand why air molecules wouldn't do the same thing and in fact even in uh scientific experiments you can see different air pressures um changing based on gravity and they're they're mixing even in a closed system or an open system so it doesn't really matter um that uh the atmosphere is existing on the earth i don't i don't know what the flat earth model explained would explain to that it's really just a a problem for both models to be explained and i think gravity does make sense the flat earth model doesn't have anything to explain that well it has a container so the yeah it does the antecedent why would all the air just flow all the way to the top of this container because there are temperature fluctuations and what we have is a gas cycle on the earth most of the gas is cycled at the earth so most of it stays there it then separates based on density and we have a downward electric current we have em energy coming from the sky the point that they're making is you can't even have the gas pressure to have the gradient without it being contained and if you're saying it's gravity well first of all you're just kind of begging the question that's true but where gravity is the strongest on the earth it will still fill a vacuum so why doesn't it stop the gas from filling a vacuum on the earth where gravity is the strongest it's just a claim they actually claim some of this some of the gas does get off into space they say we lose tons of hydrogen every day but uh anyway yeah i mean you can't use an experiment to show an open system you know it's you have to use a container for gas pressure so uh it's just it's called special pleading they're like oh this is the one exception in the universe trust me bro which is what the globe always does to be honest well if i open it doesn't the air you know disfuse so it's now an open system yes yes the second law thermodynamics supports our point okay that's actually yeah it supports the other point all right hey pastor explain how a rocket produces thrust in space with no air molecules to push against also thanks for proving you clearly know nothing about biblical cosmology we're trying to avoid that but um yeah thrust in space with uh with uh in a vacuum how does how does uh thrust work in a vacuum well i we're talking about going to the moon specifically i believe that you simply just take your rocket you shoot up you take the earth's orbit and it uses a slingshot effect and they simply just use that slingshot they use a little bit of thrust to get outside of the earth's orbit to escape and they have to slingshot themselves towards the moon so the the vast majority of the trip in space is actually just a consistent trajectory now they do potentially use their thrusters to make adjustments i believe that's what the apollo 13 movie is even about it's specifically that how do you leave the moon then there's the moon's a vacuum allegedly so how would they blast off without a you know they how would they how would they leave the moon because that's the alleged claim again i don't i don't know what the atmosphere of the moon is i mean you know it's difficult it's claimed by nasa it's zero they have no atmosphere again i don't i don't know exactly how they um how they would argue for that specific thrust okay uh i'm curious to know pastor shaw's view on dinosaurs are they real or made up um the word dinosaur is not found in the bible but there is two creatures that are alluded to as far as leviathan and behemoth and they do sound like um creatures of stature and size that we don't have today additionally there's a lot of um cities and civilizations throughout history that have appealed to certain large animals so i do believe that there was probably some creatures like a behemoth that fit some of the bone structures that we find in museums today but i do think it's also reasonable that some of the dinosaur fossils that are quote found don't really add up to the creatures that they claim they are if you go to a lot of these museums you'll notice that they're pretty much all 100 casts they're not actually any bones whatsoever um there's very few bones that they actually have on display and not even in some of the most prominent museums do they even have anything that's a legitimate bone so i think there's it's probably a mixture of there's probably some fiction and some fact to that but i do think the bible does appeal to a creature in jobe as behemoth that does not fit an elephant or a rhino and i believe it's very likely that it could have been some type of what we call dinosaur and that they would have existed with man they were created in the six day creation in genesis one jenny has a spicy question for austin why is austin drinking breast milk i was drinking orange juice but uh allegedly i mean that's your claim yeah i'm gonna lie but according to a rumble chat uh it's breast milk and we want to know what's going on all right american shinobi says pastor what are the odds we lost all knowledge in tech to make it to the moon and back which is what nasa claims and why haven't we went back yeah i think that's a great question number one uh china and india and other countries have visited the moon since then india recently landed on the moon but when it comes to technology it's definitely lost all the time we don't know how to build the pyramids we don't know how they built certain things of antiquity but you know if you understand nasa at the in the 60s and the 70s like a lot of the information was not in a computer a lot of the information was in the head of their scientists of their astronauts they had to be able to do certain calculations in their head on the fly and so a lot of that information doesn't necessarily get transferred doesn't get written down um it's not any different than if you just drop me and austin and owen on an island by ourselves we're not going to start manufacturing cars and computers and cell phones like we don't know how to do that and so there's not really any difference to a particular space program being shut down and that generation passing away and bringing a new generation and they don't necessarily understand all of the technology that they had that time but you have elon musk and other people reinventing it coming up with new processes new technologies new spacecrafts new rockets in fact the rockets that they make for spacex um they actually reuse them so the thrusters they send them up and then they come back and land back down and they're able to reuse that particular portion of the spacecraft and so you know it's it's not like um technology being lost over time is a new phenomenon that's something that uh is very common and it's a human condition so i think it's something we should all take note of is that we need to also be smart and not just let technology go by the wayside totally and i think it's a great time to start landing the plane uh we're pushing three hours now and everybody's been having a blast and i just like to uh personally thank both of you guys for doing this pastor shelley wits it gets it i thought this went really fun i mean the chat really enjoyed themselves especially uh once i started reading their stuff i think that they're enjoying it i think everybody made some good points and let's uh each of you guys three minutes uh make a statement to your people where people can find you why you think this is important but how we can still all get along let's wrap it up fun let's start with uh let's start with austin yes so um like the reason that i do this man and this may trigger some people here is uh this isn't really something i would have ever done if anyone knew me before i talked about this a lot they they would not believe this would ever happen um i just i had a very spiritual experience and um i started feeling kind of led to to talk about how we're being misled about uh what what was created for us and it hasn't been easy for me man i lost a very good job offer um i've been completely ostracized blah blah and i don't care but i mean i'm not a victim or anything i'm just pointing out that the motivation for flat earthers is nothing like what people seem to think it is um and the reason that i do all that is because it changes many people's lives and that's just a fact and fire earth is so dangerous that someone may move out of a city and make five babies and grow a garden or something you know so i get you close to the creator and grounded and more appreciative of what's here um and more intuitively like in line with what you experience and so i just want the audience to go look into these things like look at watch the principle documentary watch heliosorcery that's where you'll learn the true history of geocentrism inform yourself on these things and you'll find out that there's something called the kapernik principle and that's the idea that the earth does not occupy a special or unique place and these crazy atheistic people that want to believe in evolution and hate the idea of god and all this stuff they they push the kapernik principle of philosophy into this discussion and now claim that it's science and what you'll find out is the evidence actually shows that the earth's in the center and in fact that we built huge telescopes for the first time ever in the early 1900s we saw out to what people call galaxies and everything was moving around the earth and they're like wait a minute this is not supposed to be happening did they step back and say oh maybe the earth is in the center of course not they made up new stories that everything's accelerating expanding creating another illusion and whenever we measured it time slowed down and tricked us and blah blah blah because these people they have a philosophical bias against it so long story short to wrap it up just go look into that i have a geocentrism stream that if you really find out what happened it's not what you're being led to believe right and i encourage everyone to just kind of be more patient and kind with people because because what you don't know is the people that are on this side have done lots of research and they found out whoa this is like a huge lie that we're being told we're being misled about the actual observations and it shows that the earth's in the center and finally that would of course mean if the earth's in the center the question is who placed it there and it's a pretty significant and impactful thing so i encourage people just to stay open-minded and try to be uh humble and kind to people well thank you it's a gets it and i don't know how to do a poll in uh someone else's chat but if you guys in the chat want to just say who you thought won just say the name and then a w um because that's important to know and i'd also like to apologize to uh pastor shelly in the beginning i was way too bitchy uh i can do that i'm sorry it ended up being great so i was like it i really had a good time and i was way too aggressive in the beginning so if you guys watch from the beginning i'm gonna time travel little einstein style my bad he turned out to be a good dude okay uh final closing thoughts for pastor shelly yeah i want to thank both parties for being on the show and uh even though owen was a prick at the beginning he warmed up so i appreciate that and uh you know when it comes to this specific issue you know i i believe there's just so much reality denial when it comes to the flat earth position and of course the government's lying about a lot of things of course there's a lot of conspiracy theories that are true and of course i believe the bible but i think that sometimes people go a little overboard with the idea that the government's lying look two plus two is still four and you know there's there's some level of reality that we can all adhere to i don't think everybody's in on this scam and specifically you know the sun itself if if we're orbiting around the sun the sun is a picture of god and you know the world is not about us it's about god and it's about us serving and worshiping him and specifically the most important truth that you can ever get is the gospel of jesus christ being saved you know the bible makes it clear that we've all sinned and if we don't um get saved that we would go to hell which is in the center of the sphere and that's a place i don't want anyone to go to that's a bad time to realize that the earth's a sphere is when you're in hell burning and so i want people to be saved um the bible makes it clear that jesus christ died on the cross for all our sins was buried and rose again and all we have to do is simply put our trust in him one time put your faith in him alone for salvation and you will be saved you will go to heaven when you die that's the most important truth and of course i do think that there's other things that are important that's we're having a discussion we're bringing up these different topics um i do believe that nasa is not lying on this specific issue but that doesn't mean that i care what nasa thinks because i really don't and people have believed in the sphere and believed everything i'm saying before nasa ever existed so it's just a straw man to say that i just love these institutions or something like that i don't care at all i just want people to be saved and i don't want people to be stupid and look like idiots and unfortunately the reason why people are mocking you for being a flat earther is because you're being stupid they love you sometimes rebuke is coming from a place of love jesus said that he rebukes those whom he loves and you know the bible talks about parents making their children as a form of love and so sometimes you tell someone they're just being a retard and an idiot because they are and you love them and you want them to stop subscribing to stupid idiotic things like the flat earth and i really hope that people will um check out the evidence because it's abundant that the earth is a sphere everything proves that the bible proves that don't listen to weird cultists who are trying to just suck you down a bad rabbit hole nice that was a very eloquent close and with that we're going to land the plane i'd like to thank uh pastor jonathan shelley he's just uh it's the baptist bias here on rumble i think he got a lot of a lot of people to watch i mean we we've had almost over two thousand the whole time so uh took some uh courage and some balls and some uh open-mindedness to come have this chat of course wits it gets it austin i love his stuff i've known him for a long time um if you want to check him out uh i think he's on youtube right uh with it yeah yeah just just for this part of the topics yeah yeah he's on youtube he's on rumble he's on all the places uh i did a moderate job it's okay if you thought i was annoying i tried my best but uh you can find me on rumble.com user slash owen benjamin and um yeah i felt like this was great and i will see you guys soon and be good to each other much love you