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Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, welcome to The Baptist Bias. I'm your host, Pastor Shelley, and we're going to kick off this evening, like we always do, with Ben the Baptist's Benalog. The end is near, or so we're told. Perhaps Jesus Christ will return before I even finish this sentence. It appears the reasons for Christ's imminent return vary greatly. But as long as you believe it could be now, you're in the club. Whether you're pre-Trib, Preterist, Amillennial, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, or a believer in an alien, reptile takeover, the prevailing narrative is that the worst is not on the horizon. But rather, the next godlike savior to appear will come to redeem the planet. It's like a Venn diagram with immanency in the middle. I guess the question of the century rests on who is coming next and what we should be looking for. Or is the end really coming soon? YouTube prophets would have you believe that they finally cracked the code on the next doomsday date and not simply stolen the idea from the expiration of their most recent milk carton, believing it was actually a sign from God. They proclaim that we're in Daniel's 70th week right now. Next week will be the sixth trumpet and the vials are on deck. Yet those facing the biggest challenge maybe raids corporate marketers attempting to replace the label Ant and Roach on a can of pesticide with a new title of gold-crowned iron breast-plated lion teeth locusts from hell. Especially considering America's supply chain issues. Thanks Kamala. Even more terrifying is the idea that the man of sin is already amongst us. Is it the pope? George Soros? Elon Musk? Bill Gates? Or maybe even his ex-husband Melinda? Ugh. It doesn't end there. Fox News and talk radio shows warn that the newest booster shot is the mark of the beast. Asks are the abomination of desolation. Today the preaching behind pulpits sounds more like the latest weekly world news headlines rather than the two-edged sword of the King James Bible. Perhaps the God of the universe has already given us the answers rather than relying on the belligerent screaming of Alex Jones and David Icke peddling the newest conspiracy of the day. Why should we assume that those who don't believe the Bible and are even convinced that they are Jesus will have the greatest revelation of all time? The reality is truth is only as reliable as its source. To rephrase Joshua's favorite quote, as for me and my house, we will have the Baptist bias. Hey, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us this evening. And this is a pilot for a new podcast that we're starting. It's called The Baptist Bias. And I'm your host, Pastor Shelly. Like I mentioned earlier, I pastor out of the Dallas-Fort Worth area and there's a lot of topics that we're going to be talking about. And I'm going to be talking about the Bible. I'm going to be talking about the Bible. I'm going to be talking about the Bible in the central area. There's a lot of topics that you're not necessarily going to preach a whole sermon on but you'd like to discuss or bring up and yet it's still important to still use the Bible as your lens when looking at any subject. And so thus it's kind of born, The Baptist Bias. And I'm excited to have here with me my co-host, Ben the Baptist. I want you to go ahead and give a little shout out to everybody. And kind of get a feel for what you think the show is about. Well, first of all, it's great to be here. That name, Ben the Baptist, by the way, it comes from a YouTube channel that got nuked, just to be clear. But yeah, it's great to be here, obviously. This is gonna be a show where we look at different world events through the lenses of Scripture with a Baptist bias. We're pretty open about the bias that we have here on this program, and it's a long time coming. I've been a church member here at Steadfast Baptist Church in the DFW area since January of 2020, before that at Jacksonville, and I'm ready to go. I'm excited. I'm buckled up, and obviously End Times Bible Prophecy tonight. Let's get down to business. I'm excited about it. Yeah, tonight we're gonna do a show talking about the end times, and I really like your intro there, your binologue, where you talk about just how there's a lot of different views out there, and really when it comes to end times, there's a lot we could talk about. But I felt like, you know, to start off the show right, we needed to bring in a special guest, and so we have a special guest with us this evening, Pastor Steven Anderson from Faith Board Baptist Church, and looks like he's already showed up on the screen. Can you hear us all right, Pastor Anderson? Yeah, loud and clear. Thanks for having me on. Great. So why don't you give us just a little quick intro of who you are, and then we'll kind of get started on our discussion this evening. Yeah, I'm Pastor Steven Anderson from Faith Board Baptist Church in Tempe, Arizona. I've been there for 16 years. And about, what, 10 years ago now, almost, I came out with a film called After the Tribulation on end times prophecy, and then also a Revelation series that I preached, and a bunch of other films that I teamed up with Paul Wittenberger on, just about subjects that are relevant to the end times, about Israel prophecy, etc. And so it's a subject that I have preached a lot about, studied a lot about, and that I love to talk about. Great. Well, I think we're gonna let Ben kind of drive the train here. Why don't you kick us off with some questions here for Pastor Anderson? Well, I guess just first to lay the foundation down for people who perhaps are not too familiar with this, what would you say are kind of the main camps with regard to end times Bible prophecy? I mean, obviously you have the pre-Tribbers, and you have other groups as well, but if you could describe the main sort of ideologies that are related to end times prophecy, how would you kind of summarize that for people? Well, it breaks down in a whole bunch of different ways, but let me just start out with the views on the millennium, because that's kind of the first way that it breaks down. You've got the pre-millennial, the post-millennial, and the amillennial. What does this mean? Well, the pre-millennial view believes that Jesus Christ is going to literally return and sit upon the throne of his father David, and we as Christians are going to rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years. So basically, just reading Revelation chapter 20 and taking it at face value. And obviously Revelation 20 is not the only passage. There are all kinds of other Old Testament passages that describe that same period that we would call the millennium, whereas the amillennial, which means no millennium, or post-millennial, which means after the millennium, have a totally different view. And amillennial and post-millennial sometimes are almost difficult to tell apart, but the big difference is that we believe that Jesus Christ will return and then set up this millennial reign, whereas both the post-millennial and the amillennial believe that this millennium is more figurative, that it's not literal. Okay, so the amillennialist would say that basically Christ is ruling and reigning right now, so you know we're in the quote-unquote millennium right now, but it's just symbolic. It's figurative. It's not actually a thousand years, okay? And they're really asking the wrong question, okay, when they say, well isn't Christ reigning right now? Because if you actually read Revelation 20, the thing that's characteristic of the millennium is that the devil is shut up in hell for a thousand years so that he can no longer deceive the nations. So a much better question to ask would be, well isn't Christ, excuse me, a better question to ask would be, isn't the devil already bound in hell right now so that he can't deceive anybody? Of course that's absurd because we know that right now the devil walketh about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, so we're clearly not in any kind of millennium, whether figurative or not figurative. Okay, now the big difference between post-millennialism and amillennialism is that post-millennialism has the view that things are getting better and better, that basically, you know, we're gonna win the world to Christ or that the majority of people are gonna get saved in the earth or we're gonna turn the world Christian or however you want to look at that, and then Christ will return. Okay, which is kind of bizarre looking at the way the world actually is right now to actually think that we're getting better or more Christian or preparing for the coming of Jesus Christ or something like that. So that's, that's, that's the first way I would break it down is, is into those three millennial views. Okay. And then within the pre-millennial view, there's going to be the question of when does the rapture happen? Is it before the tribulation? Is it after the tribulation? Is it post-trib pre-wrath? And so some people don't even believe that the rapture is gonna happen at all, but that's basically the breakdown of the major views. And then we could also break it down into futurist, historical, or preterist view of Bible prophecy. Futurist meaning that a lot of these prophecies are literally going to happen in the future, which is obviously the pre-millennial view. Historicist meaning that it's all symbolic or figurative of just things that have happened throughout history, struggle between good and evil. And then preterist view that everything already happened pretty much in the first century and there's nothing more to see here. Or partial preterist, most of the Olivet Discourse happened in the first century, but there's still a little bit still coming. I thought it was a really good explanation breakdown of the camps there. It seems like, you know, just from my perspective in Christianity, the most prevailing view is probably a pre-millennial pre-trib. Is that kind of your viewpoint as far as like what most people are, or what do you think as far as popularity? It really just depends on what denomination you are, because it, you know, if you're an independent Baptist or an evangelical Christian, then the majority are going to be pre-millennial and they're going to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Jesus could come at any moment type of a doctrine. Okay. But among your mainline Protestants, okay, it's going to be more of a historicist view, maybe preterist, a lot of post-millennialism, a lot of amillennialism, you know, Roman Catholics are going to probably lean more toward a preterist view. But again, it really just depends on the denomination of what, you know, most people believe. But I will say this, one thing that a lot of these views end up having in common that most people end up believing is that basically the coming of Christ is imminent, that it could come at any time. Because if you think about the pre-trib believers, they believe Christ could come in any moment. And then those who are amillennial or post-millennial, you know, they believe that Christ could come soon or without anything necessarily leading up to it. And so, you know, the reason that these views are so dangerous, amillennialism, post-millennialism, and to a lesser extent, pre-tribulationism, is that basically if people are expecting Christ to come at any moment and the real person who's coming at any moment is the antichrist, you can see how this would play right into the devil's plan. Because, you know, the antichrist is going to come before Jesus Christ. And, you know, the post-millennialist, the amillennialist will just say, oh, here he is, and embrace him as their savior. Because we know that when the antichrist comes, the whole world's going to worship him. 2.3 billion people in this world identify as Christian. And so obviously the Muslims are going to worship him, 1.6 billion strong. The Buddhist, the Hindus, he has to appeal to everyone if the Bible says the whole world's going to worship him. And so you say, well, how are Christians going to be fooled into thinking that this is the second coming of Christ? You know, they're already prepped for this idea that the antichrist is not literal, he's not actually coming, and they're expecting Jesus to come. Now, the pre-trippers are also expecting Jesus at any moment. At least they believe they're leaving, though, you know, so if they don't leave, then hopefully that will, you know, ring some alarm bells when they have somebody on the scene claiming that he's Jesus Christ. But obviously our view, which is post-trib, pre-wrath, post-tribulation, pre-wrath, is the correct view. And it's the view that doesn't prepare for the antichrist, because it's the view that says, no, we know the antichrist is coming and we're watching out for him, we're going to be aware of him, and we know that the imposter comes first and not to believe anybody shows up claiming that they're Jesus Christ. And when Jesus Christ does show up in the clouds, we are leaving because it's a post-trib, pre-wrath rapture. And so we're basically in the ideal camp for not being sucked in by the antichrist no matter what. Yeah, I think that's really great, and I mean, a place of scripture that really hammers the fact that the antichrist is going to come before would be 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, which says, let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. It says, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. So, you know, for any of these views to be accurate, as the starting point of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 1 is saying it's the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, we have to be able to point to an event where there was an antichrist who's claiming himself to be God, standing in the holy place, and that's kind of a really important part of Bible prophecy, is identifying that antichrist figure, and the timing of him as well, and it seems like there's kind of some contention as far as who that is, or when that is, maybe even like in the book of Daniel, a lot of people will kind of go to Daniel, and there's like some differing views on the antichrist, or how he's going to come, or what that looks like. I'm kind of interested in getting your thoughts on the book of Daniel specifically, and kind of the antichrist figure. What do you think about identifying the timeline of the antichrist, and especially in light of books like Daniel? Well, you know, these people with these wrong views, like the historicist view, would just say, oh the Pope's the Antichrist, you know, or, you know, the Preterist view might say that Nero was the Antichrist, or Emperor Titus was the Antichrist, or Antiochus Epiphanes was the Antichrist, and although these people are all great pictures of the Antichrist, all of them, you know, could represent or symbolize the Antichrist, you know, the Bible says there are many antichrists, but that there's also just a single antichrist that's coming, and the Bible makes it clear in Revelation 13 that there's going to be a man who receives a deadly wound, his deadly wound is healed, the entire world will worship him. All languages, kindreds, tongues, and peoples on the earth will worship him whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, and so none of these other people fit the bill. The whole world didn't worship any of these Roman emperors or Greek rulers. The whole world doesn't worship the Pope. All nations, kindreds, tongues, and peoples aren't worshiping the Pope, because you've got tons of Muslim countries and Buddhist countries and Hindu people that do not worship the Pope as their Messiah or whatever, and so, you know, when does this happen? Well, the Bible says that he's gonna reign for 42 months. The Bible says that the Antichrist will continue in power for three and a half years, 42 months, you know, 1260 days, the different ways that it's described, and if you compare that to the scripture back in Daniel chapter 9 in verse 27 where it talks about the abomination of desolation happening in the midst of the week, basically what you end up with is you end up with a seven-year period in the end times, okay, and this is known as Daniel's 70th week, and in the seven-year period in the midst of the week is when the Antichrist comes to power, he receives his deadly wound that's healed, the world declares him to be the Messiah, the second coming, you know, whatever they call him, he's gonna be this godlike messianic figure, the whole world will worship him, and then there's gonna be a false prophet that rises up, according to Revelation 13, that's going to tell the whole world to worship him, and will also say that they need to make an image to the beast, and that everyone needs to worship this image, okay, and whoever won't worship it should be put to death, and, you know, when you worship the image, then you receive this mark in your right hand or your forehead, of course, known as the mark of the beast, so the timing of this is that it's three and a half years into this seven-year period known as Daniel's 70th week, which has not started yet, which has for sure not started yet, none of this has happened yet, and it might not happen for hundreds of years, I mean, it could start in a week or it could start 20 years from now or could start 500 years from now, we have no idea when this will start, we're not in the end times as far as the final seven years yet, we are just, you know, living in the Christian era, you know, that's why all these atheists call it CE, because the Christian era that we're living in, so, that's a joke, now, do you have, let's, I think we should dive into Daniel a little bit more, but do you have some questions here that you want to knock out? Yeah, and just a real quick comment before I get into Daniel, not a real quick comment, because you had brought up some of these shadow fulfillments, if you want to call it that, or figures of the Antichrist that we see in the book of Daniel, whether it's Antiochus Epiphanes or Titus, it seems like people just have this issue with even the concept of a shadow fulfillment, you know, like, they kind of think, like, well, if this event occurred in history that matches Scripture, then it's done, there's nothing left for the future, and I did have a question about that later, we'll get to, but Daniel 9, I'm not sure, honestly, how popular the, what I call the Messiah view is in Daniel chapter 9, where people think he is the Messiah, but I just wanted to read a few verses toward the latter portion of the chapter and kind of dive into this, because, again, there is a little bit of contention on verse 27 specifically, but I guess I'll start in verse 24, it says, "...seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins and to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness and to seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem and of the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks and threescore in two weeks. The street shall be built again in the wall even in treblest times, and after threescore in two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself, and the people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and under the end of the war desolations are determined." Verse 27, this is the one that people kind of fight about, "...and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Obviously you just preached about this, Pastor Anderson, you know the interpretation of verse 27 that would say that he there is in reference to the Messiah that is brought up in verse 26, rather than the Antichrist. And so I guess my question, and I think we could dive into this now, why would he be the Antichrist there rather than the Messiah? Just to play devil's advocate, there might be some people who would look at verse 26 and say, well, it says the people of the prince that shall come, and so the last singular antecedent would be Messiah, people might argue, but what are your thoughts on that? Verse 27 specifically, what would you say to back up the idea that it's actually in reference to Titus as the figure and then obviously the Antichrist himself from an eschatological perspective? Well, first of all, the last singular noun that's mentioned is prince. People of the prince that shall come, prince can still be the antecedent. The fact that it is the object of a preposition does not stop it from being the antecedent. What if I said, I went over to our deacon's house and he fed me lunch? That is a perfectly legitimate sentence to say, I went to the house of the Lord and worshipped him. I went to the house of our deacon and we ate a meal together. Okay, so this idea that says, well, it's the people of the prince, so prince can't be the antecedent, that's just a grammar fail. They just don't understand how the English language works and we could look at verses all throughout the Bible where the object of a preposition can still be the antecedent of a subject pronoun. So that's just, that argument is just dead in the water. Okay, but as far as why do I believe that this is the Antichrist that's the he, first of all, it is the nearest antecedent, but the real reason why I believe that is because listen to Daniel chapter 8 talking about the little horn, which is a picture of the Antichrist. It says in Daniel chapter 8 verse number 12, and an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression and it cast down the truth to the ground and it practiced and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, how long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden underfoot? So basically it says in Daniel chapter 8 verse 11, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away. So talking about the little horn, the Antichrist, verse 11 says by him the daily sacrifice was taken away. It says in verse 12 he's against the daily sacrifice and the place of the sanctuary is cast down against the daily sacrifice. I mean clearly in chapter 8 it's the little horn, which pictures the Antichrist, that is taking away the daily sacrifice and setting up the transgression of desolation. Then if we go to Daniel chapter number 11 we find another mention of the abomination of desolation and it says in Daniel chapter 11 verse 31, an arm shall stand on his part and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength and shall take away the daily sacrifice and shall place the abomination that make it desolate. So notice the same person who takes away the daily sacrifice is the same person that places the abomination of desolation in Daniel chapter 11. So we have the little horn which is obviously representative of the Antichrist, the little horn in verse 7 is referencing the Antichrist, the little horn in chapter 8 is referencing the Antichrist, chapter 11 verse 31 we're talking about the Antichrist, chapter 12 is another mention of the abomination of desolation and it says in verse 11 from the time of the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that make it desolate set up. Notice how those things go hand in hand. So if you're gonna say Jesus is the one that's that's taking away the daily sacrifice, are you saying that Jesus sets up the abomination of desolation? That's absurd. Jesus is not the one installing an abomination. So this view that says that Jesus is the subject in Daniel 9 27 is basically just reading chapter 9 all by itself, ignoring chapter 7 and 8 and ignoring chapters 11 and 12. If you actually read chapter 7 and 8 and 11 and 12 you'll see that we're talking about the Antichrist who does this. I think an interesting point in some of this is in verse 31 when you are reading that it actually says they which to me would almost tie it back to verse 26 of Daniel chapter 9 when it's kind of talking about the people and it's saying the people are going to just you know destroy the city and the sanctuary which obviously those people are the minions of the Antichrist doing his bidding. Obviously the Antichrist probably isn't setting up the image himself but by his commandment through his people and so we kind of see a coordination of they but by saying they in my mind it kind of precludes the idea of it being Christ like you know how could you then go back and say this is Christ in in verse 27. Well I don't think anybody would say that chapter 11 verse 31 is about Christ and they wouldn't nobody's gonna say that about Daniel chapter 8 verses 11 but then all of a sudden Daniel 9 27 is about Christ that's why this view doesn't make any sense and and just to be clear obviously the book of Daniel had some messages for the people of that time as well so when we're reading Daniel chapter 7 and we talk about the Little Horn that's prefiguring Titus the Roman commander who eventually becomes the Roman Emperor who destroyed the temple in 70 AD that's the actual immediate fulfillment of that in Daniel 7. Daniel chapter 8 we're talking about Antiochus Epiphanes because in chapter 7 we're talking about the Little Horn of the fourth kingdom whereas in Daniel 8 we're talking about the Little Horn from the third kingdom which is from the Grecian Empire and then you know when we get into chapter 11 we're again talking about Antiochus Epiphanes in the short term but you know brother Ben asked a little bit earlier you know well if these things have already been fulfilled if there's a historical event that already fits the bill why would we be looking for a future fulfillment you know if it's already done it's done you know which is the Preterist mentality but the problem is that the fulfillment of these by Antiochus Epiphanes and Titus in 70 AD the problem with these is that they did not fulfill all of it and they did not fulfill it to a T that's the problem okay they only fulfilled it partially or symbolically they didn't really actually fulfill it the way the Bible says it's going to be fulfilled like for example you know did these people declare themselves to be God well yeah in the second century BC Antiochus Epiphanes declared himself to be God there's even a coin that's been found that says you know Antiochus Epiphanes is God manifest okay from the second century BC but here's the thing did the whole world worship him no did all nations kindreds tongues and peoples worship him absolutely not not even close was there a mark where you couldn't buy or sell during the Roman Empire absolutely not so you know you could sit there and say oh it's all done well you know what then the Bible was super duper exaggerating wasn't it and so because none of the stuff that the Bible said would happen actually happen something way more minor happened that still is a great picture but if that's the main event you'd have to pretty much just believe that all of the the prophecies of the Bible are just exaggerating things times a hundred it's these tiny minor events local events that supposedly fulfill this stuff I mean think about Matthew 24 saying that there's going to be a time of tribulation unlike the world has ever seen from the time that men were on the earth until now forward there's never been anything this bad could you really say that about Antiochus Epiphanes or the Jewish Roman war in the first century these were little local skirmishes that were barely even a blip on most people's radar throughout the world okay and so you know often what we've said is that you know the only view that says that the things in Revelation are gonna literally take place is the pre-millennial view but really that's not even the right way to say it a better way to say it would be that the pre-millennial view is the only view that even thinks that the things in Revelation are gonna happen at all forget being fulfilled literally I mean if you believe these things are gonna happen at all if they're even gonna somewhat happen is a pre-millennial view because these these a millennial and post-millennial views take all the teeth out of these prophecies to where they're just a great big nothing burger is what you're left with as far as all the cataclysms described in Revelation that's what always blows my mind like you know one volcano erupts in Iceland and all of a sudden it's like oh man you know this is the fifth trumpet or something of revelation it's like do you really think that the that the trumpets are gonna be that minor that the vials are gonna be that minor and is God just scaring us with all these dramatic judgments that aren't even really gonna happen hey I just believe that the stuff in Revelation is actually gonna happen yeah that's like any earthquakes there's like thousands of earthquakes every day and and some people aren't aware of that so then they'll point it out and there is like freaking out like there's thousands of earthquakes or something I think an interesting point on what you're making though is in Matthew 24 it specifically addresses the Daniel prophecy in regards to the abomination of desolation in verse 15 it says when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophets stand in the holy place and then it elaborates that would in my mind completely eradicate the idea that Antiochus Epiphanes it actually fulfilled all of Daniel because it because Christ is already past in Tychus Epiphanes but it doesn't bring up this is a future event so the only exactly potential would be Titus Titus of the only one left now I want to make a few comments Ben brought up the grammar question and it's only a question for someone who knows nothing about grammar right because I follow anyone to show me a grammar book that has this non-existent rule that people of the prince that the he can't refer back to Prince because it's in a preposition we talked that way every day that that was just sure well I feel that I have an image I couldn't find I actually did a search in many grammar books and online I couldn't find a single rule that even theoretically exists but in Daniel chapter 7 it's interesting because it says in verse 25 it says and he shall speak great words against the Most High so talking of the Antichrist and it says and shall wear out the Saints of the Most High and think to change times and laws and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times of the dividing of time but the judgment shall sit and they should take away as a dominion to consume and destroy it unto the end and the kingdom and dominion and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the Saints of the Most High whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom and all dominion shall serve and obey him now if we had this theoretical rule that a pronoun cannot go back to the to the to the noun of a prepositional phrase then that him there would not be able to go back to the Most High it would have to go back to the previous antecedent which would actually be the Antichrist so that's how that's how foolish and stupid you'd have to be to basically adhere to this idea or doctrine that a pronoun can't be going back to yeah you could literally turn to probably almost any page in the whole Bible and find an example that violates this this made up grammar but but anyway let me just park it on Matthew 24 for a second because this is the key point and if people are watching this if there's one thing you take away from this broadcast take this away from it okay in Matthew 24 it says when you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet stand in the holy prayer place whoso readeth let him understand okay verse 21 is still continuing the same thought and it says for then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time none or ever shall be so if you're gonna claim that the abomination of desolation already happened then explain to me why there was not a time of tribulation unlike the world had ever seen at either of those events okay because again and like you said Jesus is after Antiochus Phiphanes so it would it would have to be 70 AD was that really a time of tribulation unlike the world has ever seen no nor ever shall be he said there will nothing be worse than this after it and you could say you know oh well it was the worst thing for the Jews or whatever but that that's not what the Bible says I mean it says then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time none or ever shall be and except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved everybody be dead everybody would die you know but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened so what in the world like when did an event happen that where you know the elect would be totally in danger of being wiped out and just totally killed and if it wasn't shortened all the elect would be killed it you know even if you took the the wrong view that said the elect is referring to Israel or the Jews the Jews are already scattered all over the world in the first century AD so a local event in Jerusalem isn't gonna wipe them out period it can't it wiped out the ones who were there but it did wipe them out and it was not shortened okay there was no shortening that took place they just got killed and the ones who were scattered everywhere lived okay well but but in the end times if there's gonna be the mark of the Beast anybody who won't worship the Antichrist should be killed yeah that's something where if those days were not shortened then you know no flesh to be saved but for the elect's sake those days would be shortened so when it shall there be great tribulation unlike the world has ever seen when you see the abomination of desolation at the midpoint of Daniel 70th week when you see the abomination desolation that's when things get really bad the first three and a half years are bad but I'll tell you when it becomes something unprecedented that the world has never seen is after that midpoint so you can't divorce verse 15 from verse 21 of Matthew 24 in Matthew 24 when you see the abomination there must be the greatest tribulation that the world has ever seen that did not happen in the first century therefore that view is just it's toast you know that's a great point and I think that there's a lot of those that that's one one of the reasons why you know we can't wholesale except 70 AD as the final fulfillment of all of Daniel's 70th week I think that we could say that 70 AD was a partial fulfillment in the sense that it's fulfilling Daniel 70th week in some regards and in some of these verses but it's not like the only fulfillment there's got to be a future shadow fulfillment and I wanted to get your thought on something about this because I've heard some people even say well you're kind of ignoring the whole context of the chapter but in in the beginning of Daniel chapter number nine it's bringing up the 70 weeks of the Babylonian captivity and it's evidence or so I'm sorry yes 70 years I misspoke the 70 years that they're gonna be there and they're gonna wait return at the end of the 70 years Daniel understands this from the book of Jeremiah and then he gets this vision from an angel that's also about 70 weeks and it's kind of an interesting parallel with the number there but what I was thinking about is in 1st Kings chapter 8 King Solomon and I'm not gonna read a lot of verse there's a lot of verses there but essentially he's just making a generic prayer to the Lord saying at any point if his people end up getting dispersed throughout the land and they realize they sinned that they can you know repent and seek the Lord and pray and humble themselves and then the Lord would restore them back to the Promised Land or back to Jerusalem essentially and that's what's happening with the 70 years is after the 70 years we're gonna have that proclamation they're gonna go back now in this 70 weeks what I was thinking about is if the fulfillment is Titus which you know of course that's a layer to this prophecy and I believe that it is a partial fulfillment of this but if that was the ultimate fulfillment it really doesn't fit with the context because at the end of 70 AD it's kind of doing the exact opposite where it's not like the returning to the land they're actually getting dispersed back out of the land however if we understand this as being the Antichrist and it's the last seven years of history before the millennium that at the end of the millennium then what is going to happen is God's people is actually going to come all the way back into the land which is exactly what the first 70 year you know prophecy is basically doing in essence where the children of Israel are outside of the land praying and humbling themselves and then being returned back in the land and this 70 weeks correlates with that is saying like yeah here's another example of when you're gonna be dispersed essentially and then at the end fulfillment of that 70th week you're gonna have a full return of the children of Israel in the land of Israel in Jerusalem with the Lord reigning and you kind of have that that picture of restoration again what do you think about you're absolutely right yeah you're you're absolutely right that's a great point because basically the 70 years ends up in a happy ending of Israel returning to the Promised Land and the 70 weeks ultimately in its final ultimate fulfillment ends up with again the children of Israel in the Promised Land living happily ever after as far as the millennial reign of Christ of course it's not gonna be the Jews that are living over in Israel right now they don't get a happy ending they're gonna get their backsides handed to them in the end times but what it's gonna be is because there's gonna be a resurrection of the dead all of the Israelites throughout history that are resurrected and the Christians who've been resurrected we're gonna rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years Jesus is on the throne of David you know so yeah at the end of the 70 year Babylonian captivity you have the rubable the son of David you know coming back to rule and they're setting up their kingdom again and so forth but that's a shadow fulfillment because it was kind of a shadow of a kingdom that they set up whereas like you said at the end of the 70 weeks you have the real kingdom and you know you read earlier from Daniel chapter 7 how right after the whole thing with the Antichrist and the his kingdom you roll into the Saints possessing the kingdom and you know Christ and the Saints ruling and reigning and that's what's gonna happen so yeah Daniel 70th week was in the first century AD with 70 AD being the middle of the week when the temple was destroyed but that was not a complete fulfillment that was only a shadow fulfillment the real fulfillment of Daniel 70th week is going to be in the future and like you said it will have a happy ending because it's gonna roll directly into the millennium when the 70th week ends and so it fits the context of Daniel 9 perfectly but but here's the thing the context of Daniel 9 is Daniel's trying to figure out what happens when the 70 years ends you know it's like he's praying he read about it he realizes that the captivity 70 years okay how do we move forward God I'm sorry for the sins of our nation he confesses the sin to God and so forth and then God basically explains to him what's gonna happen what's gonna happen well there's gonna be a commandment to rebuild the city and the street and rebuild Jerusalem the Messiah is gonna come the Messiah is gonna be cut off but not for himself because he dies for us then there's gonna be a war and the people of the prince that you'll come are gonna destroy the city in the sanctuary and they're gonna make it desolate and yada yada yada that's what's gonna happen that's what happens so whether that whether in the text right there there's a happy ending who cares it doesn't well the thing the point that I'm making the point that I'm making is that the 70 AD doesn't fit that context at all so it pretty much precludes the fact that Titus couldn't have that same correlation to the context of the chapter because it's like a complete opposite ending of what the actual 70 years is and the Messiah interpretation would absolutely not fit that because they're already in the land so it's like where do you have I guess that the stoning of Stephen is what people said is it would be the end of the seven-year period with that interpretation but I just wanted to mention real quickly because you know we're talking about the shadow fulfillment as well of Daniel 9 and I remember when I first learned about it the Roman Jewish war 66 AD to 73 AD with 70 AD being the the midpoint I almost fell out of my chair now obviously the Bible authenticates itself I don't need a historical event to have faith in the Word of God but it is really cool though and again it is a shadow fulfillment but it is cool to see how the first Roman Jewish war was predicted that week that seven-year period predicted in Daniel chapter 9 and then of course you have the prediction of the temple being destroyed at the midpoint which we know according to secular history actually occurred again courtesy of the Romans but that doesn't mean that it was all fulfilled like you guys already touched on yeah and and the great thing about this is that you know everyone agrees that the book of Daniel was was totally finished by the second century BC okay and so if the book of Daniel is totally finished by the second century BC and it's predicting this fourth kingdom that's going to be different and that's gonna just crush and be so cruel and so forth you know it's a great description of what the Roman military and the Roman Empire was like and then basically but you know describing that Jerusalem is going to be destroyed the temples gonna be destroyed you know by the Romans yeah that's being predicted hundreds of years in advance and it's a really cool prophecy to be fulfilled and then Jesus predicted it again in his earthly ministry with even more detail and it all took place so yeah it's it's a really cool fulfillment of prophecy but again when you when you gravitate towards some of these other views it could lose some of its coolness oh yeah if you take that messianic view they're basically saying that 780 is not part of the 70th week it's just it's just something something else well I don't there's really no concrete seven-year period it's just kind of like a lot of guessing it seems like if if in verse 27 the he is Messiah because I've heard them say well that you have the three and a half year ministry of Christ but that's not really a proven point in Scripture you don't really have anything afterwards that seems to really confirm that whereas our view we're saying you kind of have this seven-year war from 66 AD to 73 AD and right there in the midst at 70 AD you have that destruction of Jerusalem so it's like a perfect seven-year period it really hammers this middle part of the week and then beyond that in the book of Revelation it makes it abundantly clear that there's a seven-year period from both sides of the ankle you got the 1260 days you got the 1290 days you got the 42 months you got all these like half year periods you got the clear midpoint with the Revelation chapter 13 with the Antichrist making a big switch you know with the devil coming inside of him and so you know you both you have like these seven-year periods really well defined in history and in Scripture they're just kind of almost throwing out in my opinion when you look at verse 27 is being already fulfilled or Christ is somehow fulfilled that in a completely different way or something like that so what do you want again that you know the the independent fundamental Baptists who were talking about this like a week ago they came out with this when they had their second broadcast where they were just acting like oh it's so cool and Daniel 927 is the Messiah and all the stuff you know the guy that's sort of the guru out of those three guys you know he he had these charts that he was showing on the screen you know to show his view and it and if you'll notice on both of these charts I don't know how well you can see it but basically you know on these charts basically just the next thing to happen is just Jesus returns you know we're already into this 2021 and then just boom Jesus returns and again same thing here it's just the next event on God's prophetic calendar is just Jesus returns to rule and rape King Jesus returns you know is what he has on there and the guy even said Jesus could come back tomorrow okay maybe the man of sins already revealed you know and Jesus could come back tomorrow so so what if the Antichrist shows up tomorrow well if this is the doctrine that everybody's being fed you can understand why a whole bunch of so-called Christians are gonna follow this because this is the false doctrine that they've been fed that Jesus can come in any moment guess who's really coming at any moment the Antichrist like so that's the big problem well if Christ was about to come it's kind of funny to me because I'm thinking like that seems really random whereas in the book of Revelation it's kind of this huge build-up because you kind of you have the Antichrist you have this mark of the Beast Christians are being slaughtered like it's never happened before across the entire world people are being beheaded for Christ and then Christ has to come and rescue the remnant that's left on the earth before they're all destroyed like that kind of makes sense why Christ is coming if Christ just came tomorrow it's like you know I obviously that's great but I'm just like it doesn't seem like there's any build-up yeah like what was you know why didn't you just save us before Biden or something you know like what is the is he saving us from Kamala or something like what is before Biden I wouldn't got all those stimulus checks for my 11 kids and you yeah you got a lot of that's true just to back you up though pastor you brought up the idea that Jesus would sort of come back and and and rescue people I mean that's what the Bible says in Matthew 24 when it says and except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened I mean without the rapture the Antichrist would just take us out right I mean that's that's the idea is that 75 day period of Great Tribulation which you know we don't have to get into that right now is that where we get that number but it's basically subtracting 1335 by 1260 you know that that time period is shortened by the return of Jesus Christ and that's what enables us all to basically not get completely destroyed by this this Great Tribulation which we don't see like you said we don't see that occurring in the first century AD and certainly with regard to the Grecian Empire as well which is further proof that again you have dual fulfillments when it comes to Bible prophecy and for whatever reason this is something that preterists just don't like they've created a false dichotomy where you have to pick between the near future fulfillment and the end times fulfillment but I'm saying oh why not both there you go both why not both yeah I think what's interesting for me too also I've made a chart a few years ago trying to kind of plot this the sequence of events and when I was making my chart I didn't even use Daniel to to like really as my basis I was using revelation because revelations the more clear scripture and it's giving like so many detailed events and then I plotted Daniel later but I feel like even if I didn't have some of the great prophecies of Daniel I could still come to every conclusion that I already have so it's weird to me to then take the book of Daniel to destroy all the really clear doctrine in the book of Revelation based on you know kind of a more cryptic and more difficulty difficult to understand passage of scripture what is your you know perspective as far as end times prophecy do you kind of give emphasis to one section of Scripture more than another I think you know maybe we should use something as more of our jumping off point or like what's your kind of viewpoint as far as yeah absolutely the book of Revelation should first of all the New Testament should be paramount but especially the book of Revelation should be paramount and then the epistles and then the Gospels before we start talking about anything in the Old Testament the New Testament is paramount especially the book of Revelation and I will say this that you know if there's any point of prophecy in the book of Daniel or Ezekiel or Jeremiah anywhere else that doesn't have an analog in the New Testament then it probably has no future significance so for example you know we're reading Daniel chapter 11 and there's all this stuff about the king of the north and the king of the south and all this back and forth you know I think it's pretty safe to say that that stuff all happened back then and doesn't have any significance for the future because none of that is repeated in the New Testament okay but these guys will say that like oh well that's how Daniel 70th week is you know it's not repeated in the New Testament that's absurd because you have tons of this number in the New Testament you have tons of talk about three and a half years and three and a half years with this big event punctuating them in the middle so if you got three and a half big event three and a half and you have that over and over in Revelation not just one time I mean look at chapter 11 look at chapter 12 look at chapter 13 it hammers these numbers about 1260 days 42 months time time and half of times which is three and a half years 1290 days 1260 days 42 months these numbers are getting hammered so to sit there and say no no no 70th week here nothing to see here no seven year period being described anybody can see that there's a seven year period described now of course these post millennial our millennial types might just say like oh it's just figurative sevens an ideal number or thousands an ideal number but they just don't even believe in a millennium they just think it's all figurative it's all symbolic none of it's actually gonna happen well if you actually believe this stuff is gonna happen well then yeah there's a seven year period described in Revelation punctuated in the middle hmm kind of sounds like Daniel's 70th week and then it fits perfectly with the Antichrist and the false prophet setting up an image in Revelation 13 it fits like a glove and it's funny how some people they want to try to like mix these views they want to mix like partial preterism with a futurist view of post trip pre-wrath and and these partial preterist guys that that are independent Baptists are claiming to be post trip pre-wrath how is that how are you post trip pre-wrath you're like no trip because they're just like well we're in tribulation right now and and and you know there's there's no the Great Tribulation coming it's just it's just we're always in tribulation it's like well okay I get that yeah we are always experiencing trials and tribulations but sorry there is a Great Tribulation coming so you're not post trip pre-wrath if you believe that you're you're no trib pre-wrath okay and I'm not and and look I'm not saying that that's what pastor McMurtry believes because he doesn't pastor McMurtry doesn't even agree with the guys that he had on his program because they're partial preterists and they're especially that pastor Clem guy was teaching textbook partial preterism and saying that Jesus could come back tomorrow he believed everything is virtually fulfilled except for just the second coming of Christ and a few things whereas pastor Tommy McMurtry is trying to like import a little bit of partial preterism into the post trip pre-wrath view and it's like putting a round peg in a square hole it does not fit at all I mean at least these guys have a consistent view even though it's garbage and not from the Bible at least they have it figured out you can't but but to try to mix that with a futurist view post trip pre-wrath view it's absurd because you can't sit there and say oh Daniel 70 week is totally fulfilled nothing to see here and then claim that the stuff in Revelation is still gonna happen when you got three and a half years coming at you six ways to Sunday well one one thing I'd like to do is I'd like to pull up my chart from Revelation and just so people have a visual aid but then have you kind of just explain how you interpret the book of Revelation because I think there's a lot of people that just don't even know how to interpret the bigger relation because they've heard so many weird you know views on this but before I get there someone did ask a question in regards to this Daniel 9 thing they said in verse 27 it talks about and he shall confirm a covenant and they're kind of curious if we you know take the interpretation that that's Titus and then eventually the the coming Antichrist the question I guess they're asking is like what coven is being confirmed what would you say to that question well first of all Titus doesn't have to fulfill everything in 70 AD because he's only the shadow fulfillment there's still more coming okay but basically you know it says he and we obviously believe that's the Antichrist will confirm the covenant with many for one week obviously in order for the Antichrist to come to power he's gonna have to make some kind of a covenant or deal or agreement with a whole bunch of people you can't just come to power unilaterally you've got to make all the alliances and we know that there's for sure an alliance between him and the ten kings where in the end times the ten kings have one mind to give all their power to the Antichrist but you know what these guys were saying on their broadcast the other day was like well where do you ever see the Antichrist making a covenant or breaking a covenant you don't see anything like that but you know here's a great passage from Daniel chapter 11 which we would obviously point to as a foreshadowing of the Antichrist it says in verse 21 of chapter 11 and in his estate shall stand up a vile person to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom but he shall come in peaceably and obtain the kingdom by flatteries and with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him and shall be broken yea also the prince of the Covenant and watch this and after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully for he shall come up and that with a small people and become strong with small people etc but the part I want to point out and obviously this is a complicated chapter that's about Antioch as epiphanies but also points to the Antichrist because it brings up the abomination of desolation which Jesus pointed to as being future okay but notice what it says after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully okay so basically that's him making a league with people and then working deceitfully basically not following through on that or breaking the league breaking the Covenant so just because it doesn't use the word covenant this is the problem with being a Google search Bible scholar or an e-sword Bible scholar where you just sit there and do these searches because you just search Covenant or search you know abomination of desolation you're not gonna find everything because in one place the abomination of desolation is called the transgression of desolation you're not gonna find that on your Google search okay or here it's not called a covenant called a league but what is a league a league is basically a Confederacy it's it's some kind of a treaty where people join together think of the League of Nations after World War one and so he forms a league and then deals deceitfully that's him confirming a covenant with many for seven years or for one week and then you know in the midst of the Covenant he does what you know he deals deceitfully he works deceitfully he goes back on whatever he said that he was going to do well I agree with that for me first of all when it says he I think it's definitely Titus in some ways but it doesn't have to be Titus so like part of this is obviously Titus fulfillment but I think it's the Antichrist that's probably fulfilling verse 27 as far as the confirming of the Covenant and in an interesting point you know I thought as well of the the ten kings but in Daniel chapter 7 it says and I want to read a little bit of verses here it says in verse 20 says and of the ten horns that were in his head and of the other which came up and before whom three fell even of that horn that had eyes and a mouth that spake very great things whose look was more stout than his fellows I beheld and the same horde made war against the Saints and prevailed against them until the ancient of days came and judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High and the time came to the Saints possessed the kingdom thus he said the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth which shall be diverse from all kingdoms and shall devour the whole earth and shall tread it down and break it in pieces and the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall rise and another shall rise after them and he shall be diverse from the first and he shall subdue three kings now what I think is interesting about this portion of scripture is it kind of gives light to the idea that there could be a ten king covenant or league with the Antichrist he's using flattery just telling them what they want to hear but then there's a point in which he basically breaks this covenant with all of them and what's alluded here in verses 20 and 21 and 22 is that the timing of when these three fall is when the Saints are being ward against which we would look at as the being the fifth seal or the abomination desolation which is right in the midst of the week so it almost pictures like right in the midst of the week three kings are falling then all of a sudden the Antichrist is clearing some God and it's kind of abandoning and dropping these ten guys or not really honoring whatever commitment he may have made with them setting up the abomination of desolation calling himself God that's just a little bit of you know my reading between the lines I mean they think about the only the only problem with that is that that is that the you know the ten kings are still players at the very end but it could be a different set of ten kings because they could be replaced with with ten yes men or whatever but but the point is that you know what three you're gonna fall right yeah so then they could be placed or whatever but but the point is I think that that the view that we hold here as far as what does it mean for him to confirm the covenant with many but then to deal deceitfully after he's made this league is I think that the the people that he's really double-crossing the most are the Jews so the Jews are some of the people that he's covenating with but not necessarily just a covenant with Israel it's a covenant with a whole but it's with many he's confirmed the covenant with many it's world leaders it could be ten kings plus other people as well okay and so the reason I say it's it's the Jews as well is because you know what seems to be happening is that the seven-year period begins he confirms this covenant and this ultimately leads to the temple being rebuilt and and the you know a lot of people are acting skeptical that there's ever gonna be a third temple but let's stop and think about it the Jews want the third temple Christians want the third temple because they're so misguided on Bible prophecy okay who doesn't want the third temple you know Muslims Muslims because they've got their dome whatever and so so the bottom line is that you know the Bible describes in the first part of Daniel 70th week there being a worldwide war Islam is probably gonna get their butts kicked in this worldwide war and that's going to lead to the temple being built so it's like the Antichrist is on his way to power the man of sin is coming to power and so one of his bargaining chips is okay you guys help me get to power and then I'm gonna get you your temple you know we're gonna get you back in control of that part of Jerusalem with the temple get these Muslims out of your hair or whatever the temple gets rebuilt the daily sacrifice is reinstated all the Jews are thrilled all the fake Christians are loving it all the misguided people think it's the greatest thing ever but then in the midst of the week comes the double cross where he basically enters into the holy place and declares himself to be God and sets up the the abomination of desolation and whatever because the Bible describes in the second half of Daniel 70th week Jerusalem being trodden under of the Gentiles that's not exactly a Jewish paradise when the Gentiles are taken over and basically the Jews are being punished by God and and trodden down for 42 months it's given to the Gentiles for 42 months that's not what they bargained for it that at the beginning of the week right when their temples getting built we're getting our sacrifice it's gonna be great but then in the middle he stops the sacrifice and says no I'm God basically that's the double cross or the working deceitfully or breaking the Covenant in the midst of the week okay so that's what everything points to that's what we've always taught and believed and and it's it's it's all over scripture it all adds up and fits this other view it makes the end times a block you know one of the great complaint about the preacher rapture is that it's so confusing and they don't understand the book of Revelation and then once they get on post-trip pre-wrath all of a sudden everything starts to click and make sense well you know what these guys with their messed up view on Daniel 927 they're trying to take everybody back into the wilderness again where everything's a blob everything's confused even their guru pastor Clem is like I don't know maybe there's gonna be a three and a half year period in the end I don't know I mean who knows maybe it's pop maybe Jesus will come tomorrow I don't even know has the man of sin be revealed I don't even know man of sin I don't even know he doesn't know it's like well you know what we like to know stuff that's why we like the post-trip pre-wrath view because we can actually understand the Bible and you know why people love after the tribulation and they love these views is because they're like wow I'm reading Revelation and now it actually makes sense and these people want to go backward well I think one of the points that I heard about that is it's kind of like well the disciples didn't understand things before the gospel and then afterwards they they kind of got him or something so if Christ comes down he can explain it all to me but I'm thinking like they weren't dead yet so yeah I guess there's a point in their lives where they didn't understand some part of the Bible and later they end up getting that understanding but it's not saying that in our lifetime we can't understand certain things in the Bible it's kind of weird to title an entire book of the Bible Revelation and we just were clueless and just have like no idea what's going on I mean in first Thessalonians chapter number five it says that we're supposed to be watching for these things how can you be watching for something you have no idea what it is or it could be anything or that it's like so mysterious it kind of defeats the whole idea of even being able to watch yeah how do you how do you watch for this blob that we have no I we don't know is it three and a half years is it seven years maybe it's not gonna happen maybe it already happened maybe it's happening right now maybe it's all figurative it what do you even watch for at that point and so that the post tribulation pre-rath view futurist view pre-millennial view is the right view it's the biblical view it's the only view that is actually saying that the stuff in Revelation is really going to happen and still jives with Scripture because the pre-tribulation rapture position does say that the stuff is actually going to happen but the pre- trib rapture is just totally foreign to Scripture so that's what's wrong with that view and so it's post trib pre-rath one of the greatest things I I feel like I heard you preach one time was in the Revelation series I believe itself you kind of like Oh laid out just how the book of Revelation structured and just kind of you know because some people are confused as far as the chronology of how the book is layered so do you think you could do as a service and just kind of quickly helping us understand the timeline of the book of Revelation itself yeah sure I mean the first thing to notice is how the book of Daniel's laid out you know the first six chapters of Daniel are all in chronological order and then all of a sudden in chapter 7 you just have this major gear change and we jump backward in time and the second half is completely different from the first half because the first half is all Bible stories the second half is all prophecies and the first half is chronological with itself and the second half is chronological with itself but there's a reboot in the middle well Revelation is the exact same way the first 11 chapters are in chronological order then when you get to chapter 12 you jump back in time and start talking about the birth of Christ at the beginning of chapter 12 so it's not hard to figure out that you've jumped back in time when all of a sudden Jesus is being at the at the beginning of chapter 12 and then chapters 12 through 22 are also in chronological order and if you think about it you know the the book that's delivered unto the lamb to open is a book that's written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals so when the Bible says book it's actually not referring to what we think of as a book the codex because this is something that got popular later back then things were scrolls and so being written within and on the backside it's like you write on one side of the scroll and on the other side of the scroll so if you could think about it as one through 11 is one side of the scroll 12 through 22 is the other side of the scroll it's it's split in half and it tells basically the same chronology from two different angles I mean God loves to tell us the same story twice from two different angles because that's what he does in Matthew Mark Luke and John books of the Kings versus books of the Chronicles and so you've got 1 through 11 and 12 through 22 two different stories now here's the thing 1 through 11 doesn't get you all the way because it stops right as the millennium is starting like right when the millennium starting that's where chapter 11 stops and then in chapter 12 we start over with the birth of Christ we move forward through the timeline but this time it goes beyond the millennium goes to the great white throne new heaven and new earth so it takes you a little farther in that second half but you know once you understand that then you can see how these two events these two timelines line up you know you take one through 11 over here take 12 to 22 you're reading them both in order it all jives it jives with Daniel jives with the four Gospels guys with the books of the Thessalonians so yeah let me ask you let me ask you a question because I've heard this since it starts back over in chapter 12 and it actually kind of is going back to a further point with Christ and maybe his birth and kind of talking about some of the symbolism there I've then heard someone say well when it brings up some of these timelines of you know a thousand two hundred and three score days or these kind of events that that has also already been fulfilled that was still past where do you really see it it going from past to then future in chapter 12 well the thing is you know first of all it doesn't really necessarily go back much further because 1 through 11 also starts in the first century AD because it starts with John on the isle of Patmos the seven churches so the first five chapters are all taking place in the first century so it's not really that weird that chapter 12 would also jump us back to the first century with the birth of Christ but where it becomes future it's obviously jumping over events in chapter 12 because it just it basically has Jesus being born and then it just has him ascending up to heaven so obviously we skipped a lot there everything after him ascending to heaven in chapter 12 is future so it would be pretty weird just to jump backwards in time to let's say 33 AD approximately and then skip down a few verses and say oh but this is actually you know 400 BC or 300 BC or 100 BC or something like that that when this was fulfilled or if you jump to let's say you're not necessarily jumping that far into the future you're saying 70 AD you would then have to believe that the rest of the book of Revelation happened 70 AD and that kind of falls apart which is it's just nothing happened nothing worldwide in 70 AD that's the thing I mean it's in 70 AD is a local event now it's a big deal for Jerusalem because the great fulfillment of prophecy where Christ said your city's gonna be burned not one stone of the temple is gonna be left on another it's a great fulfillment of prophecy but in the scope of the globe the scope of the entire world 70 AD is a nothing burger for the world so you know the books the book of Revelation is clearly describing worldwide cataclysms yeah but someone said we were in the fifth seal so like how do you you know debunk that I mean then then I would say well when did the when did the four horsemen of the apocalypse happen you know when did the fourth part of the earth get killed and when did when was the whole world at war I mean is that is that supposedly what World War one World War two just because those are called World War you know they didn't necessarily involve the entire world okay I think that I think that those are horrible blood baths and biggest wars possibly in human history you know depending on how you factor a war how you think about a war you could you could say that World War one and World War two were the biggest wars in history the biggest bloodbath in history but what's coming in the future is going to be bigger than that it's going to be worldwide where a fourth part of the earth is being killed with sword and with hunger and with death and with the beasts of the earth it's just that you know to say that it you know I've heard somebody say oh that the 1260 days is is Islam or something you know and and you know 1260 days or 1260 years of Islam or that's a historicist view that just you know everything's an allegory everything's a symbol and you can kind of just make it whatever you want and the end times are a big blob and we don't even know what to watch for at that point if you're gonna be a futurist meaning that you actually believe the stuff in Revelation is gonna happen you end up being post trip pre-wrath if you actually studied the Bible and I think one of the wackier views that I heard from people who would subscribe to the preterist view the idea that Jesus is the one being talked about in Daniel 9 27 that a lot of this stuff has already been fulfilled that we're already in the fifth seal or whatever the case may be is a very I think just kind of weird way of looking at the abomination of desolation even claiming that it's nowhere found in Revelation despite I think clear verses alluding to it specifically and I'll just bring one up right now in Revelation 13 15 and he had power to give life under the image of the Beast that the image of the Beast should both speak and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed so obviously we have this being described in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 in the book of Daniel the Antichrist at the midpoint of Daniel 70th week sets up the abomination of desolation an image in the temple and revelation 13 alludes to it so I mean could you speak to have you heard I mean let me ask you this I'll put it this way have you heard this before this idea that well the abomination of desolation is really just figurative of our bodies and that it's actually just you know taking the mark or something like that it would be synonymous with taking the mark or whatever I mean what do you think of that kind of wacky interpretation of what the abomination of desolation really is I mean I mean okay if it's just equivalent with taking the mark where's the mark of the beast did that already happen you know I mean the Seventh-day Adventists say that the mark of the beast is is going to church on Sunday you know they literally believe that Sunday worship is marketing well did I put Sunday in my hand or my forehead it doesn't make sense you know you get that is the Catholic Eucharist in the right hand or in their mouth or something I mean when you get that loose with your interpretation you might as well you can just make the Bible say whatever you want at that point I mean if everything's up for grabs you know then what's even the point what like I said what do you even watch for I mean we might as well just wait and see what happens because we don't have a stinking clue according to these people because everything's just a big blob okay second Thessalonians chapter 2 describes the Antichrist going into the temple of God and proclaiming himself to be God okay in Revelation 13 he's worshiped by the whole planet and an image is set up just like back in the shadow fulfillments an image of Zeus was put in the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes or whatever okay and so the thing is that a lot of people get hung up in second Thessalonians chapter 2 where it says the temple of God and they say well how could this third temple be of God if it's a Jewish temple offering animal sacrifices you know the Antichrist is behind it getting even built in the first place how is the temple it's just it's just called the temple of God that's what it's called okay just like when it says that he as God enters the temple of God showing himself that he is God obviously he's not God but he's claiming to be God he is being called God by people the temple is going to be called the temple of God that the city of Jerusalem is called the Holy City of course from our perspective as Bible believing Christians the city of Jerusalem is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where also our Lord was crucified that's how God looks at it that's how we look at it but yet the Bible will still call it the holy city temple of God where because that's that's what it's being called that's what's being referred to as he's just identifying it with what they're saying it is okay but then what they say is like well that can't be the temple of God so you know our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and these guys in their broadcast the other day literally said I kid you not they said well you know if our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and if the man of sinner is you know entering into the temple of God saying that he's got they literally compared that to the kovat vaccine the government is the Antichrist they basically said that it's possible maybe the government forcing you to get a COVID vaccine is like kind of like you know man of sin invading the temple of the Holy Ghost or and then they said that you know because some churches received relief money during the COVID thing where you know because a lot of businesses got loans and they got government aid and whatever that because some churches got that you know that's the Antichrist entering into the temple you know it's like come on again if you're gonna get that wild go be a Seventh-day Adventist and just say the mark of the beast is Sunday which is because it you know if you want to get that stupid and just say the COVID vaccines the mark of the beast and you know the government accepting or the church accepting money from the government you know that's the abomination of desolation it's just like at that point everything's up for grabs you can just say whatever you want teach whatever you want believe whatever you want you know it can we at least take a halfway literal interpretation here that just says hey the Antichrist is gonna be a person who says that he's God and the whole world's gonna worship him and you can't buy or sell unless you worship the guy that's what's actually gonna happen we don't need all these other goofball theories but I guess they're playing to their base of all the people who just want to make a big deal about COVID that it's the end of the world or something you know well in an interesting I'm annoyed by it too but it's not the end of the world yeah it's obviously frustrating but something to me you know unless you're just gonna really alachorize everything here I really can't see how you could take this literally from a historical perspective or from the predators view because if you have the Antichrist being risen from the dead he's inhabited by the devil and the world is saying who can make war with the Beast here's my question who would actually stop him like I don't see how it would ever stop like what's the end point to this like at what point is the devil gonna be satisfied you know with this particular model you know the Bible is painting the picture that he was never gonna be satisfied in fact the whole goal is just to kill every single person and the only one who can actually defeat him or stop him is Jesus Christ himself that's why he's gonna return on a white horse in Revelation chapter 19 and throw him and the false prophet straight into the lake of fire because otherwise there's no literal stopping point to this Antichrist system you know that's being set up so unless you're gonna allegorize that I don't even saw you could kind of claim to believe in a literal fulfillment of those verses yeah it's it's way it's way far from being literal and I understand that not everything in the Bible is literal I get it but if you get once you get that loose with it it loses all meaning at that point I mean it when you're saying the mark of the beast is Sunday it's like you're just you're way off the reservation buddy you know and when you're when you're gonna sit there and say maybe the COVID vaccine is the mark of the beast or it's it's very similar to the mark of the beast or or the government you know giving a loan to a church during the pandemic is is the abomination of desolation I mean that it's absurd at that point well you could point to so many other events that are similar and as far as a logical concept I mean we already have the IRS we already have you know when you form a church you have to have a legal entity that's granted by the government we already had social security numbers we already have telephones that have all of our personal so you know information obviously we can see like a building up to the Antichrist system being implemented and through technology it's gonna make it to where it could actually force a economic system that's dependent upon a cashless mark that's you know received and is dealing with worship you know but that that obviously you know we can't really stop that economic system from taking place it's kind of silly to worry about stopping the technology because to me it's funny because it's like you can't stop it like how are you gonna stop the technology from evolving to the point where the Antichrist can be able to do his thing you know the Bible has already told us what's gonna happen you're trying to stop scripture from being fulfilled you got Hobby Lobby you know refusing to put barcodes on their products because the barcode has a 666 in it you know and and because of that you know I mean here's the thing though everybody else is gonna have that barcode no matter what anyway you're not gonna stop it when one company does that you know but here's a point that I want to bring up to that you know that I think we need to address is that whenever you have people pushing these views like historicist view or preterist view or Daniel 927 is a messianic verse it's not about the Antichrist they always appeal to like all these theologians from the past and we got to look at what the doctrine was back in the Reformation or in the past or whatever instead of just going by what the Bible says they read all these theologians from the past and and here's what I think about that I think that getting your end times theology from stuff that was written during the Reformation is a horrible idea okay and you say oh well they knew more back then wrong they didn't okay I can even forgive the Reformation era guys for being a millennial post-millennial or having a historical view because you have to put yourself in their position okay they're looking at the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope as being the bad guy the Pope is the Antichrist and then they see in their lifetime basically you know the Pope losing power entire countries breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church and getting more biblical all of a sudden the Bible is being printed and all these these churches are getting more and more biblical and further away from Roman Catholicism I mean look the Protestant Reformation was on the right track the problem with is it just didn't go far enough but I mean look at the five solas of the Reformation I mean sola fide faith alone amen right salvation by faith alone sola gratia grace alone sola scriptura scripture alone right is our is our basis for what we believe right all the glory to God only Christ right all of these things these are great I'm for it but it didn't go far enough but it was on the right track so you could see how if you were living at that time and you see this monolithic evil Roman Catholic Church with the Pope taking the place of Christ so he's an Antichrist in that sense and you see it all tumbling down and entire countries breaking free the Bible being printed the Word of God getting in all of the people's languages and and churning out of printing presses you could see how they could have like a post-millennial view and think like oh wow you know things are gonna keep getting better and better or or it's all figurative because back then how could they imagine it being literal that the two witnesses are killed and lay in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days and their bodies are seen by everybody in the world I mean if you're living in the 15 1600s how could you imagine everybody in the world all kindreds tongues peoples nations seeing the dead bodies of these two guys lying in Jerusalem so you can see how they didn't think it was gonna be literal but us in 2021 we're we're just thinking well that's easy it's a webcam the whole world could easily see that so so you know it's better to listen to the Bible prophecy teaching from now even the stuff from the 60s it's all gonna be about the Soviet Union or something the stuff from the Reformation they're only seeing it as Catholic versus Protestant you know that's not the only thing that's going on anymore and we have the technology now where it could be fulfilled literally and it makes way more sense that it would actually happen then that it's all allegorical but can't you forgive them for thinking it's allegorical when they think like how could you not buy or sell without getting a mark hey just buy stuff on the black market but we can see how everything could go cashless CCTV everywhere implantable chip webcam on the streets of Jerusalem it all makes sense you know it interesting point because I actually have the Matthew Henry commentary with me in regards to Daniel chapter number nine and then I kind of read through it just to see what he thought about it and he does interpret verse 27 he as the Messiah but what's interesting about it is it really doesn't change like his viewpoint though on the explanation of the chapter is it really different than ours it's just that that one verse he tries to attribute to Christ and try to says like Christ kind of filled the Covenant but then when it talks about the people the prince he still says that that's the Roman army and he kind of like tries to say it's similar to where the Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians are like God's servants to come and wipe out Jerusalem the first time he's saying like all the Romans and Titus these they came and destroyed the temple as as Christ servants you know because of their overspreading of abominations and their rejection of the gospel and then he kind of ties it into Matthew 24 at the end talking about how to bring up Daniel and he's he's saying that when this happens you know it's gonna be a final judgment until and then he brings up Romans 11 which it says that blindness has happened to Israel until the fulls of the Gentiles be come in and then all Israel shall be saved now he doesn't really elaborate but it's just kind of funny because it's like he's almost right there as far as what we view how at the end of you know that abomination of desolation in the future we're gonna have all Israel being saved when the fullness of the Gentiles are being come in which is kind of a similar parallel at the end of the day who gives a rip what Matthew Henry said who is Matthew who is this guy I don't care what he says he means nothing to me I have no interest in what Matthew here I could show you hundreds of places in that Matthew Henry commentary where he's a complete bozo and teaches something stupid so that guy is not relevant you know what we need to stick with is the Word of God the Bible and Holy Spirit filled teachers that are living and breathing right now you know why do we have to dig up some dead theologian to tell us what to believe you know if I want to hear what somebody has to say about the Word of God I want it to be somebody who's alive right now who has the Holy Spirit in them because I actually know who they are I can actually inspect their fruit because we know false prophets by their fruit how can I test the fruit of some guy who's been dead for hundreds of years because people after they're dead are often lionized or slandered and you know you can't trust some guy who's been dead for hundreds of years that you've never met that no one you know has ever met we've never been to his church we don't know what his life was actually like just because something's written in a history book you know we can't just take it as gospel and so I have no interest in what some dead long past theologian had to say I want to know what the Bible says and I want to know what preachers who are alive right now and dwelled by the Holy Spirit are preaching right now filled with the Holy Spirit because you know what we have 7.4 billion people on this planet right aren't there enough people to pick from aren't there some spirit filled man of men of God somewhere on this planet right now that can expound God word God's Word does that we don't have to go to a corpse to tell us what the truth is you know the Bible is the book that we turn to as far as the source the authority the word a commentary or a theology book has no authority only the Bible has authority and if I want to hear the Bible expounded I want to hear it expounded by somebody who's alive right now that I can actually look into their eyes and and and hear them talk and actually check their fruit and figure out who they are well I totally agree that it's kind of silly to try and go back in time and try to figure out what anybody believed or what they were like or if they were say I don't even think mainly Matthew Henry saved number one so I don't really care I really feel like when it look you go back to these Church Fathers none of these guys even appear saved and it'd probably be similar to if someone discovered a book from our modern era all the people that are popular and the copies that would survive would be all the raging heretics of the day that nobody even want to listen to so it's kind of it's kind of bizarre I do think it's interesting from a historical perspective though to simply identify like what doctrines people did believe and and kind of the evolution of maybe mainstream views or how the Catholic Church or some of these churches have like shifted on on what they kind of look to description because you know Matthew Henry specifically is very anti the Jews being God's chosen people and that's kind of been historical doctrine it's only like since 1948 or something that people then radically changed their view and we kind of have this major Zionism coming into play and and I find that interesting I don't know that it proves anything but but here's the thing let's say there's a false doctrine out there and you hear about a false doctrine and you're like that's a false doctrine and then you find out well Matthew Henry believe it is commentary that's not gonna make you go like hmm maybe I should rethink that well I mean if Matthew Henry's saying it I mean you don't care any more than I do at the end of the day you and I only care what the Bible says and what actual saved Christians believe right today that are alive today not not from the past like yeah obviously the Bible's a living document today like we were talking on the phone what was it yesterday or whatever and and you made the point and said that you know if anything doctrine is gonna get more accurate over time because of the fact that you know it look of acts you see the Apostles confused about a lot of things and they're kind of figuring things out at times and then when you get you know the epistles are giving clarity and you know obviously the epistles of James and John and Peter are being written later than the stuff we see happening in the book of Acts and they definitely have greater understanding and so you know people are figuring things out and as we as we see the end approaching you know we get a greater understanding of these things the Bible even says you know knowledge shall increase in the end times why would I assume that that that people knew more about end times prophecy in the 1500s when they didn't even have the technology that would even cause the stuff to even be possible to be literally fulfilled whereas now we can see how it could be literally fulfilled you know I just from for the life of me I cannot understand why we don't just base what we believe on the Bible and on what people that we actually know that are actually saved believe right now like how the Holy Spirit's leading them how the Holy Spirit's leading us because how can we really try the spirits of back then because we can't really meet those people we can't check their fruit we can't see what their converts are like we can't see what their church is like we can't we can't even ask them questions they're dead and it's like if you have to resort to these dead people then you know what that just shows that the why I'll put it this way if your view is correct you should be able to prove it with the Bible alone and support it with people that are living today believing it alone like it should be like the Holy Spirit and the Bible now why I mean the fact that you have to dig up someone to keep making that point it shows that you're you must be weak on support from the Bible or from actual saved Christians you can point to right now believing this it kind of makes me think of the Jews like the Jews are kind of rejecting Jesus in the flesh telling them what the Bible says and they're like we're Moses disciple you know like they're like pointing back in time and and I you kind of hear this like from this house house church movement and stuff like that how they'll be like well we're going back to the Acts chapter 2 Church or whatever but I find it funny because it's like nowhere in the Bible do you see at any point in time it's Paul saying like you guys need to go back to the church in Acts chapter 2 like you need to go back to the old way of doing it and it also makes me think of how people will say you know I like the 2006 version of Pastor Anderson you know the 2021 yeah it's like it was you're better somehow in 2005 and 6 or something like you haven't gotten better with age or more understanding of reading the Bible it's like this the first version of Anderson Pastor Anderson was like somehow far superior yeah because is when I was 24 years old I knew everything and had all the right answers but now that I'm 40 and have 16 years in the ministry I know so much less now I mean that's absurd and in the book of Acts look look at how they're having all these problems with supporting this multitude of widows where it just becomes their full-time job waiting tables okay obviously that didn't work people want to point to that stuff as being some kind of an idealized system but by the time you get to the Apostle Paul writing one of his last epistles first Timothy chapter 5 you know it's letting out a window be to widow be taken into the number under three score years old and he gives so many criteria for a widow to be supported by the church that very few widows would make the cut right and it would be a very small part of a church's ministry whereas an act it was just this massive thing well they're still figuring things out you know it didn't work and you know if you if we want to go back to the book of Acts if I have to go back to the book of Acts then I want to go back to Acts 28 you know because the later the better as far as I'm concerned you know 28 where it says I'm done going to the Jews let's go to the Gentiles right I mean is your church gonna get better over time or worse it's kind of it kind of seems a little obvious obvious you know in in the book of Revelation you have you see churches departing from doctrines or faith and they need to kind of get you know sharpened back on that particular point but in general speaking you know I feel like our church keeps getting better every year and that you know doctrines getting clearer or having more understanding or more wisdom like it would be weird to think that we have to constantly go back to some previous state that rather than doing better and a point of the Bible that I always like to bring up when people have this weird ideology is the Passover itself because the Passover is delivered to Moses and the children of Israel and then we go several hundred years into the future and then we have Hezekiah performing the Passover later in the future and when he performs the Passover God's like commending him saying this is the greatest that the Passover has ever been observed or ever been fulfilled or something like that and it's like it's so much further from when the command was actually given the instructions and like their first iteration but yet it's still better meaning that the more biblical you are the more bet like the better it's gonna be it's not like you had to be closer to the timeline it's like it's it's more about closer to what the scriptures actually say rather than the proximity to the instruction that's a great point that's a great point about Hezekiah and Josiah in some ways being better than even David in some ways and it just gives us hope to say that we can constantly improve church we don't have to like feel like it's constantly devolving that we can constantly make it better and that you could have the best church theoretically as opposed to like well we can't have the 1950s church or we'll never have the 1900s church we'll never have that you know this this idealized version of church in the history you could theoretically have a better version by just following what the Bible actually teaches well let me tell you where this this wrong idea is coming from it's because all the popular preachers are all bad like right now who the guys who are on TV the guys whose books are in Barnes & Noble are all bad you know the who are the big-name preachers right now Joel Osteen Rick Warren TD Jakes you know Steven Furtick or something right that weird white guy with dreadlocks whatever you know Todd white yeah Kenneth Copeland you know yeah these are all the big-name popular guys and they're all false teachers right but then all of a sudden we have this idea that all the popular teachers from the past were all good so in the 1600s all the most popular preachers were good 1700s all the most popular preachers are good 1800s all the most popular preachers are good early 1900s all the most popular preachers are good and then just only in our lifetime are they all bad well no actually here's the true story the popular preachers have always been bad and they always will be bad that makes a lot more sense that the world has always been like it is right now where broad is the way that leads to destruction and and so when you have this idea that all of these popular preachers in the past were all good they were so great and then you have these people that are in these dead churches that are doing nothing right now so then they always have this syndrome that the past was better the past was better because they're in a do-nothing lame church right now so then it's like oh man the glory days were either in the 60s or in the early 20th century or the Great Awakening or the Second Great Awakening or oh man the Reformation was so great no you know the way we think about it as independent fundamentalist Baptist is we're living in the greatest days right now like we want to do greater works than anyone's ever done I just believe that whether you're living in the year you know 2021 or the year 1832 or the year 1357 or the year 755 it doesn't matter when you're living if you have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God you can understand the Bible you can do great things for God you can be greater than the previous generation it's not just this diva this devolving as you as you put it like yeah the world is getting worse obviously but is Christianity getting worse no yeah you know and the reason people think it's getting worse because they go to a dumb church you actually go to a good church you wouldn't think it's getting worse you'd think this is great we're doing great we're winning souls we're doing great works for God so what did the Holy Spirit get worse did the Bible get worse to human nature get worse no it's the same as it's always been and so this is constant looking backward to these theologians and and thinking everything was better in the past you know if you inquire why the former days were better than these days you inquire inquire foolishly according to book of Ecclesiastes I guess a great point do you have any you have another question that you want to kind of get to to kind of wrap this up I know we've talked a lot of yeah subjects I do I had one question just to kind of like you said just to wrap it up but just it's by the way I thought this conversation you guys were having was also important though because of the fact that people tend to authenticate or at least try to authenticate their doctrine by what preachers in the past have believed but of course the Bible says you know the thing that it's been is that what shall be and that which is done is that what shall be done and there was no new thing unto the Son if the popular preachers pastor Anderson like you were saying are wicked now they probably were back then too so it's sort of useless to use them in order to legitimize whatever you believe rather than the Word of God and you know we talked about a lot of different things tonight obviously when it comes to end times Bible prophecy we're not gonna hit every single subject in one live stream you know and that's just the reality but one question that was brought up to me that I guess we can end with is this and I think it makes sense to end with this because people are looking you know the Bible says what I say unto you I say unto all watch people are watching they're looking and and they're obviously by studying the Word of God but what in your gut and this is for both of you obviously what in in your mind kick starts the seven years that we've been talking about not just in Daniel but of course in in Revelation as well obviously you have the opening of the first seal but you know is it the devil getting cast out from heaven technically what is it that starts the seven year period is my first question second what is the first thing we're gonna see that would then be an indicator for us to know all right we actually are in the tribulation now and I can start I'll say that you know it's like it's it's basically there's war in heaven the devil's cast down and he knows that he only has a little time and so he sets these things in motion you know the Bible says of the Antichrist the dragon gave him his power and his seat and great authority and so it starts with the devil being cast out of heaven there's a war in heaven the devil's cast down he knows that he only has a little time and so he begins to empower the man of sin okay and and so you know he confirms the covenant with many for one week you know whatever that agreement is that sets in motion these course of events so it's the devil being cast down and then him working through the man of sin to make this covenant for seven years yeah I would agree oh and then what was the second part of your question so my second the second part of the question obviously that's you know from God's perspective that would be when it starts but what about from our perspective what is it that we would see that would be an indicator for us to know that we're in the tribulation is it not going to be apparent you know until seal I guess seal number two I mean the thing is we've had world wars in the past so it wouldn't necessarily be a parent in seal to you don't would you look sure I would say the abomination of desolation if you until you see the abomination of desolation you can't be a hundred percent and I'll pass it over to Pastor Shelley I would agree that I think the kicking off point is the devil being thrown out of heaven because then it says he knows that he has a short space like he has a short amount of time to basically accomplish whatever else he wants to accomplish I don't know if it's like the exact same day that then he's gonna in you know entice the Antichrist to start making this covenant but somehow that's gonna kind of trigger the whole chain of events I think that from a hundred percent perspective it has to be the abomination of desolation I think that you know with the world wars where we would kind of start you know believing that it's it could probably be the end is when you kind of see a singular nation or figurehead actually getting world domination which I don't know that we've seen that except for with the beasts like that's the whole kind of essence of the beast is a one world kind of government one world got like leader with the Babylonians with the Greeks or the Medo-Persians than the Greeks and the Romans and so I do not believe that there will be a one world leader and one world government that's not the the end times Antichrist so I think it at some point again I wouldn't be saying that the hundred percent mark isn't really the fifth seal because that's probably when you know for sure that's what Matthew 24 is pointing to but just from understanding what prophecy is pointing to and everything if it comes to be that America has literally conquered the whole world you know I'm basically gonna be anticipating someone to basically die and come back to life or something because I I just don't I don't believe that there'll be a literal country in charge of the whole world and it's not the end times like I don't think China's gonna take over the world or something and we're just gonna all be subject to them and it's not the end times or something I think once there's a full domination by any particular country that we're pretty much knocking at the door yeah well yeah even just sorry even just the building of the third temple would be another thing where you'd say yeah this is probably it you know but it's just it's not a hundred percent but it'd be like 99% probably at that point I was gonna bring that up with regard to the temple just as a quick follow-up I know we're gonna we're gonna wrap it up soon but in Daniel chapter 8 it says in verse 13 then I heard one Saint speaking and another Saint said unto that certain Saint which spake how long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden underfoot and he said unto me unto two thousand and three hundred days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed my question for you guys is this would the daily sacrifice be a potential marker I know pastor Anderson you brought up the abomination of desolation I don't have a lot of time to develop this but obviously doing the math here we're looking at this is a two thousand three hundred day period and so you subtract that with the total number of days which is two thousand five hundred and fifty we're looking at daily sacrifices commencing two hundred and fifty days into Daniel seventy at the week is that something that you believe in obviously this is conjecture on our part a little bit but with the daily sacrifices commencing in that temple in Jerusalem potentially be a marker for us to know that hey we're actually in that in that tribulation period now yeah and I mean you you could look at that and think this is probably it that's probably what that verse means because obviously we're not that's what I agree with your interpretation of that verse but we you know I'm not a hundred percent that that's what that verse means I'm ninety some percent you know but yeah when you see the daily sacrifice start third temple any of these things are huge indicators that this is not a drill but what I'm saying is that we can't be a hundred percent sure because could there be some kind of a false start or an abortive start to this and then it backs up again you know what I mean like like maybe maybe it doesn't maybe there's a an abortive attempt that doesn't get to the finish line and then it's later but like I said if I saw it I'd be saying yeah I'm ninety some percent sure but what's funny is that we have this COVID pandemic which is a tiny blip on the radar when you think about world history because it's not even close to being the worst thing that anybody's gone through it's it's it's I mean is it a pain in the neck yeah but it's super minor compared to a lot of horrible things that happened throughout history it's not that big of a deal and yet it's like it's the end of the world it's the tribulation it's a mark of the beast it's like come on but if you actually have a temple being built and daily sacrifices the whole world's at war then yeah okay at that point then I'll start saying that the sky is falling too but I'm not gonna say it about this stupid open you know nothing burger well I did piggyback off that I mean technically there's nothing in my mind stopping America from being communist for a hundred years before the end times you know even if that did happen as a judgment against America that doesn't really cease from Bible prophecy and being fulfilled and and I don't want that at whatsoever but at the same time it's like most of the COVID agenda doesn't even necessarily fit the you know last seven years of the book of Revelation I do think it's plausible that it could spawn into something you know I guess if if we found out that hey you know China you know really lied about this virus and and they've been doing biological warfare against us and the conservatives somehow regain the house and they start talking about the transparency of foreign election interference or just all kinds of issues or something maybe that could be a precursor to actually get the world to start getting into war and fighting or something like that perhaps but to me if the COVID agenda succeeds I don't see how that really even fulfills is gonna usher us into that last seven years to me would almost have to fail in order for us to be entered into some kind of world war or something like that but I don't know what your perspective is I mean I I think that anything literally anything could lead into those seven years but until something from the seven years actually happens you know then we'll talk when something actually happens from the seven but you could you could make that case on anything you could say 9-eleven could lead into yeah the end times the Gulf War could lead into the end times you know what what Trump did where he declared Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel could lead into the end you know everything could lead into the end times literally everything but you know it's meaningless and when you're just constantly sounding the alarm it's like you're gonna wear people out it's like the boy who cried wolf if you're just constantly sounding the alarm that it's the end of the world then people are gonna get so weary of it they're gonna be like where is the promise of his coming you know nothing ever happens yeah I mean that's kind of my view of that verse is that there's gonna be so many false alarms that people are just gonna get so sick and tired of it I even think it's plausible that chips planted in people's hands and forehead will exist before the mark of the beast that it'll just be like potentially commonplace or lots of people have already done it and there'll be initial pushback saying this is the mark and this is the end or whatever even though it has nothing to do with worship the Antichrist and then that'll basically cause everybody to just say like see this isn't even a real thing or this isn't you know gonna happen and it makes it even easier to actually accept the Antichrist but I could be wrong it could be the first iteration of a mark of some kind of a chip or some kind implanted in a person's body but I don't even think that it has to be the first iteration because there's already companies and places where people have chipped themselves and you know obviously I've never I don't want to get a chip whatsoever and as much technology as I embrace that's probably not the technology I'll ever embrace but you could say it's pretty safe I'm not gonna take that John MacArthur though he might take the mark so yeah well the most radical I get is that when I look at my phone it unlocks that's as biometric as I get right now yeah that's funny yeah well I mean I think some people just to kind of round things out at some people might wonder you know why were we you know kind of dismantling some of these false doctrines so heavily earlier on in the broadcast and kind of throughout the broadcast and that's because first of all we love the truth okay we hate lies but it's not just that this idea that Jesus is coming first you know which of course the pre-tribbers would subscribe to and it's funny how by the way they've kind of merged with the Preterists as well it's all it's all gone full circle like you said pastor Anderson and one of your sermons where they've kind of borrowed from the pre-trib sort of worldview if you want to call it that to ascertain that hey Jesus could come back at any moment pre-tribbers because they think he's gonna come before the tribulation Preterists because I guess the tribulation is already happening or it happened or whatever they they believe but here's my point it's very dangerous I think for people to go around saying Jesus is coming first because the Messiah the Antichrist is going to counterfeit him and many different ways including a counterfeit death and resurrection and so that's why podcasts like this I think are important and why dismantling out of a lot of these false doctrines are important as well and of course Jesus did say in Matthew 24 that you know he's gonna you know these false Christs are gonna deceive if it were possible the elect so it's not like any of the Savior gonna get deceived anyway but still you want to have the least amount of confusion as possible and so that's why it's important to clear these things up for anybody out there who was kind of wondering about that but pastor Shelley anything else you wanted to say as we land the plane here yeah I think I think we've we definitely hit a lot of good points this evening was there and was there another point pastor Anderson you're wanting to bring up before we kind of wrap this evening no I'm satisfied thanks for having me on I appreciate it thanks so much for coming on really really great special guest to have thank you for your time we got it we got to thank our production team it's basically one man Tim he just he basically put this whole thing together and it's flowed really well and so hopefully in the future you could be a guest again maybe a different topic or a second dip at the end times and so we really appreciate you being on here with us and kicking this off with us this evening but that's pretty much gonna wrap us up for the Baptist bias and again you know you've heard a lot of points today a lot of you know dogmatic viewpoints you know things like how can you say that TD Jake's and and Kenneth Copeland all these people are false prophets well that's the Baptist bias and you know how can you say that you know Jesus isn't coming back at any moment and how can you reject Matthew Henry or Catholics and and how could you have such strong viewpoints well that's because we have the Baptist bias you know it's the whole point of the podcast and we really want to emphasize that and we want to help you realize that the world should be interpreted through the viewpoint of the Baptist bias Ben sign us off that's it for the pilot edition of this broadcast folks we will talk to you guys again after a while