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Amen, okay Mark chapter 10, it's a long chapter there, there's a lot in there we're going to focus on just a few verses from verse 13 so Mark 10 and from verse 13 we just read these four verses again it says and they brought young children to him that he should touch them and his disciples rebuked those that brought them but when Jesus saw it he was much displeased and said unto them suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of God verily I sound to you whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child he shall not enter therein when he took them up in his arms put his hands upon them and bless them and the title of my sermon this morning is Sunday school versus family integrated Sunday school versus family integrated and if you're thinking what is he talking about here if you're not aware of these sort of terms well basically if you go to most church in this nation you're going to see one of a few options when it comes to the children and how how the children are provided for in the church in many there'll be a Sunday school type area where you you're to drop your kids for part of all of the church service and you know that there are many different types of Sunday schools they'll have they'll have differing ages with some depending on how busy the church is often so you might have sort of a crash and then a sort of younger age and then a sort of medium sometimes they'll have a sort of teen group and stuff like that as well they have all these different types of what basically are Sunday schools now in some churches they'll have a Sunday school yet it will be either before or after the morning service so they'll have a separate Sunday school to the service and often that will be for adults as well so I remember at first being a bit confused by this it would say Sunday school but it was for everyone in the church and they'd have different different again different Sunday school groups for different ages and then for others it will be a family integrated church service and a family integrated church service is where the children are part of the church service and and then with you know with many they'll then have optional rooms for them to use if needed I've not preached a full sermon on this topic if you've noticed I've chosen instead to probably preach mini sermon X when I do the announcements every now and again when it kind of winds me up thinking about people that are probably sitting there can't believe that we have kids in the church service or something and that was actually someone someone brought this up I think last week to one of our ushers or something about the kids in the church service so I thought well it's probably about time that I preach a sermon on this and show you what what we believe why we believe it what our stance is on this and and look we're a family integrated model here at this church and it's not because it's what our favorite pastors do okay it's great that our favorite pastors also believe in the family integrated model but look we follow the family integrated church model because we wholeheartedly believe that as well and it you know when we're an independent church in the future we always will be a family integrated independent churches so you understand that okay so I'm going to suddenly change alright alright now it's time to start getting out the Sunday school and everything else so today we're going to look at the three common formats and regardless of our own opinions which sometimes might be valid to some degree we're going to see how biblical they are because that's going to be the important thing isn't it how biblical are the other different church models in terms of Sunday school during Sunday school after and the family integrated model because that's got to be the most important thing isn't it okay what does the Bible say about this topic well the title is Sunday school versus family integrated and option number one is Sunday school during the church services so this I would say is probably the most common around sort of claiming to at least be Bible believing churches around okay so obviously there's all sorts of bizarre cults and weird religions around but but what do churches which claim to follow and believe the Bible do the vast majority then will have a Sunday school option for during the church service maybe it'll be part of the church service and they'll kind of bring the kids out for the final bit the final hymn or something like that a lot of the time it'll be for the full church service as well now this is and sometimes it will be for after the first couple of bits and hymns and then when it's right now it's time for the preaching let's get those kids out of there and they can do something else right now this is this is common and I've been at churches where you arrive and you've got someone telling you right you need to take the kids over there you need to put the kids in that bit how old's your kid right they go over there often they're borderline wrestling them off you as well some of you might have been at churches like that where it's a bit of a struggle to keep your child on you sometimes people are literally coming to those churches to drop the kids off okay so sometimes they even staying in the church service they're coming putting their kids in there and then they're going home what are the supposed pros of this model so what's the supposed pros of this way of doing things in a church well one will be that little Johnny often has a lot of fun okay it's great fun the kids want to get there because it's all sorts of enjoyment you know they get to do all sorts of exciting stuff instead of you know sitting there and you know doing the boring things that the adults do for example some would claim that the kids get more suitable content so it's more child-friendly you know they understand more it's you the terminology will be easier for them you know it's not too much on maybe preaching or Bible there's a lot more on coloring in and games and things like that there's a there's a side point with that as well is that the kids you know if you've ever had kids in these sorts of things the ones with some Bible knowledge usually get to feel really good about themselves as well because they're like wow you know I know all these questions or I know some of them and stuff like that so that's a pro for maybe some of the children there are less distractions during the service so they a lot of these people for them the big part of it is we don't want kids in the church service because they're gonna ruin the church service okay we can't all pay attention the parents can't pay attention to the preaching because of the children so let's get them into Sunday school and then there's another pro for many which will be that the parents get a much-needed break so for many it's like look I need a break this is great we've got a load of willing volunteers willing to look after the kids so I can sit in church and relax and not have the kids there often it's been a very stressful Saturday the day before where they've actually not been at work and had to look after the kids you know so they're like man I need a break okay so so that's one of the supposed pros now what are the cons what are the cons of the Sunday school system because you might be sitting there go well that sounds good to me well when it when is the Sunday school starting brother in let's get it going next week yeah find someone we'll find someone to teach the kids anyone will do you know if no one is up for it here we'll just grab someone off and walking past or something else you know I get them in there because you know what could go wrong well what are the cons well some of the pros are actually cons believe it or not so keep a finger here and turn to Proverbs chapter 22 it's a fun and enjoyment of your child the goal of church is that the goal because some people it is a goal of church some people I've had them speak to me and go so what is the Sunday school program I want to know if my child's going to enjoy it here okay and is that the goal of church though if it is you've got your priorities messed up and you would be better off down at kids entertainment Baptist Church okay if that's your goal then probably you would be better off somewhere else because look you that's not our goal here at this church now there is by the way nothing to stop you entertaining your kids before church nothing to stop you entertaining your kids after church even in between services or believe it or not on some or all of the other six days of the week yeah you can entertain your kids in various ways to do many enjoyable things and exciting things when you take your child to the doctors for example do you look for the most fun-packed doctors surgery is that your goal is it do you look for the doctor that wears a clown outfit because at least my kids gonna have some enjoyment Lisa no you're probably gonna hope that you're gonna find a doctor that knows what he's doing at least a doctor that maybe is gonna do some healing right a doctor that at least has an understanding of medicine and other things like that and and and what could be wrong with your child or something else well it kind of should be like that with a church in it are we going for a lot well we just got to go somewhere to have fun or we go to a church where we're trying to find a church actually preaches a Bible right actually you're gonna get some spiritual benefit from it Proverbs 22 6 says train up a child in a way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it maybe one of the reasons that there are safe men and women of God down there at Pat Sharp's fun house Baptist Church and those of you a little bit older might know what I'm talking about here okay that I'm not even gonna go into Pat Sharp because most people are looking at me blankly okay however okay those of you that that you know that are wondering why there are people there let me tell you why because they were trained that way they were trained that way the Bible says trainer to train up a child in a way should go and when he is old he will not depart from it they haven't departed for the happy clappy Sunday school they were trained up in the happy clappy Sunday school they're still drinking the milk of the word in fact the watered-down milk of the word that they were getting in Sunday school they're trying to let that's what they know that's what they love so I love Sunday school I love you know kids too I want to find somewhere similar so they're down you know happy clappy church you know like this and everything else is singing you know doctrineless songs because that's how they've been trained up they've been trained up in the way that they should go in terms of at least the way that their parents at church want them to go there were saved people by the way in NIV churches did you know that because I know a lot of people don't like impossible once you're saved that's it no no no no you think now you've got to start questioning yourself what you really believe about salvation because when it comes to salvation you say because you put your faith in Jesus Christ and there are many saved people that you've got saved that are going back to their NIV churches exercising their senses with projector screens and other gimmicks because that's what they're used to they're like yeah but all that kind of just watch a guy in front of a pulpit I need to see some flashing stuff I see some screens I need to see some exciting stuff because that's how they've been trained up they never left Sunday school they they'll sing the catchy doctrineless songs they're chuffed with those you know Jesus is love or you know things like that interrupted by a little sermonette telling them how great they are pretty much like Sunday school isn't it they never left it they never departed from the way they were trained up that's how they were trained that's what they used to that's what they want that's what they desire now you might say well so what brother in so what their lease they're in church well at least they're in church and using the word church loosely obviously but but what are they actually achieving in those churches yeah we enjoy church okay I hope everyone here enjoys church I enjoy being in church I enjoy going to church but church is also there to build us up it's there to clean us up it's to send us out okay isn't that part of the point of church is that you should come to church and after it it might take a while for some people it might take less time for others ultimately eventually you should be going out and preaching the gospel because that's what church is meant to be doing it's meant to be sending you out right how should I preach except they be sent yeah fun house Baptist Church isn't doing that is it where all the Baptists out on a Sunday in this city anyone bumped into any Baptist out preaching the gospel but aren't the kids at least getting more suitable content in Sunday school so Elise says that isn't there you know what okay okay I get it you know you could say that's a hard thing to measure to gauge is it because of Sunday school is it other reasons that these people are there doing nothing patting each other on the back of the Sunday and going home to live their normal lives again well what the kids getting well it depends on what you want your kids to learn in most it's coloring pictures of cross-dressing so-called characters of the Bible okay that's most Sunday schools out there cross-dressing characters and sadly a lot of them will be apparently the Lord Jesus Christ but many others in a skirt in a dress and let's color it in great fun in most it's watered-down doctrine consisting of love all and judge no one isn't it apparently and I say apparently and and by the way some it is the gospel every week as well there are those and again hopefully you would hope and play that it's a correct gospel but I say all of that because you might go well that's not all that goes on in there and you're probably right because I don't know what goes on in there I don't oh yeah yeah look I'm gonna hold my hand I've sent my kids to Sunday school before at previous churches I don't know what they're being told I didn't know what they were being taught I still don't know all I know is what they've remembered and decided to relay to me okay and at least I was one that was interested afters wanted to know what they're being taught but ultimately what do I really know is being taught to my children when I'm throwing them into some Sunday school I don't know I've sent my kids I still don't know to this day exactly what was being taught to my children is that biblical turn to Acts 17 to see how a certain group were praised for their response to Bible teaching Acts chapter 17 in in acts 17 Paul's just had the sodomite protesters on his back in Thessalonica okay so he's just been dealing with the lewd fellows of the base assault and and it says in verse 10 of Acts 17 and the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews these were more noble than those in Thessalonica that's a tongue twister and that they received the word with all in that they received the word with all readiness of mind and search the scriptures daily whether those things were so how can we be like the Bereans and many people talk about being like the Bereans don't they if we don't know what's being taught to our kids how can you search the scriptures daily if you don't even know what they're being taught and and who's responsible responsibility of your kids they're yours they're your responsibility and who is it that's teaching your children who's teaching that heritage of the Lord God's children what what don't know what does that teacher believe do people really know what they believe what don't they believe and they even qualified to teach in that church by the way turn of 1st Timothy 2 most Sunday schools I've ever seen have ladies teaching don't they most Sunday schools I've ever I've ever witnessed I've ever dropped my kids to will have ladies teaching 1st Timothy 2 and verse 11 1st Timothy 2 11 says let the woman learn in silence with all subjection but I suffer not a woman to teach nor to serve authority over the man but to be in silence you say well she's not teaching men she's teaching kids yeah she's not learning in silence either is she is she learning in silence no she's not even learning she's teaching your children and what teaching is she missing that week in the other weeks because she's not just doing it once a year such as one service a lot of the time it's every week or at least it's every other week or they're on some sort of rotor with a few other ladies that you don't even know what they believe and what they don't believe and what their doctrine is and what it isn't and they ain't learning while they're teaching your children they're definitely not learning in silence with all subjection while they're teaching your kids their own views their own opinions their own things and by the way they do that as well because that's natural isn't it so when your kids come out with the questions which they do they come out with the answers like for example and my kids in one place where they were rebuked for saying and they weren't coloring it at the time and trying to create a problem they're just saying yeah I don't think that the men of the Bible wore dresses and they got rebuked and told yes they did basically oh I'm sorry I'm sorry is it is a women learning in in silence or subjection offending you is it is the Bible offending you because that's what the Bible says doesn't it is that is did I just read the Bible there it's got offending you it's got to offend you so the first Corinthians 14 in case you're hoping that the Greek says something different oh that was a problem was his brother Ian didn't go back to the Greek there it is a translation issue maybe there was some misogynists in Timothy's Church and they were just trying to appease a misogynist when you go back to the culture of those days the problem was well what does the Bible actually say well first Corinthians 14 says something very similar verse 34 let your women first Corinthians 14 34 let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak but their command to be under obedience as also saith the law and if they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home for it is a shame for women to speak in the church those poor husbands of these women teaching Sunday school must be having to preach whole sermons when they get home but the wife is having to have the whole thing relayed to her because she's not there because she's too busy teaching people's kids and not keeping silence in the church now that's what the Bible says doesn't it now you might go well yeah none of that really matters because at least those little brats don't distract us important adults because a lot of the time that's what it comes down to doesn't it what it really comes down to is it in their mind it's like yeah whatever I don't care what the Bible said just get them out because they might distract us they're gonna limit my spiritual growth in fun fun house Baptist Church they're gonna limit me being able to listen to every single word well go back to where we started in mark 10 because is that how God sees it with children does he see them as just this distraction to get rid of them to get them out of the way to just send them off to anyone you can just so they don't ruin that church service of course he doesn't look at Mark chapter 10 and verse 13 Jesus is on his way towards towards that final triumph and entry into Jerusalem and he says in verse 13 of mark 10 it says and they brought young children to him that he should touch them and his disciples rebuked those that brought them so by the way the disciples have had three years with him by now but they're still set in their ways and there are many out there like that because you might be sitting there going yeah but I know some real strong men of God churches who've had generations coming in and out and they've set with the Sunday school method they can't all be wrong you know what is this family integrated it's a bit newfangled isn't it what about good old-fashioned Sunday school because they can't all be wrong well the disciples spent three years with Jesus over three years at this point and they're wrong aren't they they're rebuking them they're rebuking them rebuking those that brought them verse 14 says but when Jesus saw it he was a little irritated or much displeased much displeased yeah Jesus Christ is annoyed he's angry here he's much displeased has said unto them suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of God let me tell you where Jesus is most present this morning where his word is being preached where his word his preserved word is being read where he's being properly reverently praised in doctrinally sound hymns that's where he's present he said in Matthew you don't have to turn there 18 24 where two or three two or three are gathered together in my name there are my in the midst of them and it's his name when it's a biblical church with biblical leadership the Word of God things done decently and in order that's not oh well a couple of people that don't even want to go to church oh no don't well we've got together and we're just gonna like take it in turns to teach out in the Bible yeah you're not gathered in his name yeah you're going against what he told you to do he told you not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together he ordained biblical leadership in biblical churches okay when you've gathered in his name it doesn't matter if it's a small church if it's a biblical church you get together his name there is he in the midst and here in verse 14 he said suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of God and by the way just just a side thought on this if you find this a bit hard to get used to it yeah all these kids are winding me up a little bit or anything else yeah if if people if if and I don't I hope we haven't got any like staunch kind of closet Calvinists here that think that little babies and children that die are just just go straight down to hell okay I hope we don't have anything like that there because they're at that point they have no knowledge of good and evil where did where do children go when they die straight to heaven okay young children with no no ability to understand different will go straight to heaven so based on how many people get saved what do you think heavens full of kids full of children full of them if you can't deal with a family it's great service now I'd like to say you're gonna do it in heaven they're gonna outnumber us a lot we're gonna have to mind our p's and q's around it because they're gonna be more pandit seriously he said for of such is the kingdom of God okay he was much displeased okay and I believe he's much displeased with the genuine church out there following this unbiblical nonsense I believe he is he is much displeased about he might be pleased with other things some of those old good quality churches did and do but I think he's much displeased with this part of it when you got saved you became a spiritual baby did you know that should we have shoved you out in the creche in case it was a bit too complicated for you that we should do when we get a new believer in here go like get out we got a creche up there you guys sit up there we don't want you having to you know listen to the Bible being preached well when you'd have to listen to doctrine you're a baby you're a spiritual is that what we do we don't do that do we we don't do we eventually progress them into like the new believer room for them to sing catchy songs oh yeah okay well okay how long you been saved how long you be going to church right yeah we got a room up there for you you could just like sing some catchy songs clap your hands and you know play Jesus themed games that's about all your that's about all you're worthy of because you haven't been saved long enough but you were a child too weren't you everyone here was a child if you got saved verse 15 says verily I sound to you whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter there it and you know how you grew you grew by listening to the Word of God preached yeah you grew by listening to the Word of God preach that's how you stop being a child that's how you stop being a spiritual baby by listening to the Word of God preach by training up in big boy Church that's what you did we got you straight in the big boy Church if you were here early and if you weren't here and you were somewhere else you're at least we're trying to get in a big boy Church or maybe you're listening to big boy Church online but you weren't listening to the crash from big boy Church were you you weren't listening to the Sunday school and let me tell you something the regular kids in here a more spiritually mature than any product of Sunday school those that have been coming here regularly now a more spirit look it's amazing something when you talk to your kids I'm sure many of the parents here will know the same when you talk to your kids and think about the answers they'll give you and the discussions in the biblical discussions you can have with your children compared to probably most adults out there who go to fun house Baptist Church you'll notice quite a big difference let alone the kids in those churches because they're listening to preaching they're listening to the Word of God because then they're listening to it in its unadulterated form they're not out the back clapping their hands and singing songs and painting funny coloring pictures and by the way do you know what they also learned to sit in an hour of preaching unlike most Christians out there most Christians out there come to church like us and you yeah they'll be like this looking around looking like what on earth you know it's not 20 minutes it's not 25 it's going up they're twitching but long before the hour mark and you've got kids here just sitting for an hour preaching not only week in week out sometimes three times a week says in verse 16 and he took them up in his arms put his hands upon them and bless them these kids are brought to Jesus are blessed no they don't leave church with bags of activities sweets chocolates etc you know you know oh man it's Sunday school again they're coming out you know just like laden with unhealthy things and things that are gonna make them go a bit wild but they but they do leave church with spiritual candy don't they yeah your kids leave church spiritual candy and you can't put a price on that can you you can't put a price on on the spiritual benefits of spiritual lessons I learned for being in a proper church and it's something else those kids do quickly learn how to sit in church and not be a distraction by the way unlike when they need colors sounds and play every minute okay the kids here I mean I'm looking around and there's just kids sitting here yeah they might not listen to every word maybe they're thinking about other things at times but you know what they're learning how to sit still aren't they sit quietly some people are amazed some people have never been to a church and it's come in they just thought what no it's all these kids sitting quietly they must be getting beaten up they must be getting threatened no no they're just learning to sit in a church which is the goal isn't it train up a child in a way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it okay but what about those poor parents what about that one they need a break don't they I mean these poor parents say you know well when you when you feel like that you're like I just need a break you may as well just drive down the road and drop them off somewhere right why does it need to be Church maybe drop them off at the local nursery why not the local mosque or synagogue because it's probably as biblical to just drop your children off with someone else so you can go and sit in church and the kids don't because that's basically what's going on they're not sitting in church they're sitting in a room somewhere doing other things oh well it's like they're painting in pictures of something it doesn't look anything like probably that person ever looked like well they might as well color in pictures of Muhammad or their own weird versions of biblical characters because the biblical principles clearly clearly don't seem to matter to you if that's what you want and by the way since when did God tell you to drop his precious children off with random strangers it is so did I miss that command in the Bible oh by the way when things getting a bit much just drop you drop your kids off with someone random oh it's okay they're Christians they're nice ladies oh they're lovely they even wear dresses nice men that are just happy to volunteer in the kids ministry because by the way it's not just ladies all those lovely men they just they don't go to church so they could teach kids in the kids ministry you know those sorts of men right you know those nice women and men that just love children what could go wrong hey put them in a private room with them what could go wrong they're religious folk what's the worst that's gonna happen people honestly seriously still think like that well they're religious I mean they claim to be Christians I mean I don't even know whether they teach repent of your sins and the rest of it at this church but it doesn't matter because great off you go hour and a half to myself two hours if I'm lucky they might even have an activity after us that's the reality however turn to Matthew chapter 18 I just looked at looked at a little an article online the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse so this is a bit uncomfortable said that there was no doubt that the sexual abuse of children takes place in a broad range of religious settings it found evidence of egregious failings and highlighted the hypocrisy of religions that purport purport sorry to teach right from wrong yet fail to protect children if you're a predator what sort of ministry do you think you might edge towards and by the way whether it's a false religion or a religion like ours predators will come in that's that's just the truth me in fact whatever wherever you are predators will come in some of them are just open blatant predators you go to the local primary school you just get open sodomites just teaching nursery kids and everything else it's unbelievable yet in religion they sometimes a little bit clever about it some art some will literally just walk in and address like the Catholic priest or something else and everyone's I just couldn't I just couldn't believe it the size is whatever that the size of there is wearing a dress but often in a church look sadly in churches like ours are the bold believe in churches there will be those sorts of people that come into a church what do you think they're going to go towards oh but there are plenty of other kids around there's a teenage assistant there's two adults it's alright because that they'll try out why we've put in protection now let me explain to you how these people often work okay it's not that they're going to attack your kid in front of ten kids in inside the Sunday school they do what's known as grooming everyone's heard of the word grooming yeah okay over time they're trying to get your child to become more relaxed around them over time they want your child to start to be more relaxed with the private one-on-ones that they wouldn't have had when they first met this person over time they want your child to become more relaxed with the just subtle little touch here the little stroke on the back there and it builds and builds that's grooming okay that's and and where do they go to do that kids ministries and other such like things look sorry guys that's that's that's a reality that's the world that we live in they were wicked people and wicked people sadly are often attracted towards going for the children the private chats the gaining trust they're getting them used to them and it's not just Sunday school by the way okay yeah we don't have a Sunday school alright what could go wrong people these people do it over years yeah you've got to keep your eye out for that sort of thing over familiarity with children that aren't your kids that's weird I don't get oh yeah but they're just so no they always have a big smile on their face oh well that's right then I would have got a big smile that's fine no it's not fine like keep an eye out for that stuff yeah and if it's your kids watch for that stuff what's like you don't need to be sitting there cuddling my kid close you know close quarters all touching and everything why would you be doing that that's not normal and by the way yeah kids are funny they're sweet okay but had adults generally should want to hang around with other adults shouldn't they not hang around with the kids all day oh yeah well kids are so great so I'm just gonna hang out with the kids you know just buddied up with them playing with them and stuff that's weird no you don't have to like but not go near anyone's child got within five meters okay no but you know when it's you know what I'm talking about don't you yeah and we've all seen this sort of stuff in Matthew 18 and verse 5 says this Jesus Christ said who so who so shall receive one such little child in my name receive with me but who so shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and it would drowned in a depth of the sea and you know what by the way I'll pass the point this out preaching recently and I hadn't thought about it like this do you know what that isn't it's not just drowning do you know that is that's head explosion a millstone put around your neck and drowned in the depth of the sea long before you're drowning your head is expanding with the pressure and it's popping not a nice way to go right that's Jesus Christ that's Jesus Christ that they're coloring in and make it out to be like a dress-wearing weirdo no no that's the real Jesus Christ he said people offending and upsetting and hurting and harming kids it's better for them that they were drowned in depths of the sea he said woe unto the world because of offenses for it must needs be that offense come but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh now don't get me wrong okay the primary person here is obviously the abuser but you're at least part to blame if you're turning a blind eye aren't you it's come by you I remember give me an allergy about this before when I preached on this sort of thing with with the LGBT nonsense and everything else you know you go to the lion enclosure okay and you go well look there are predators there okay if you put your kid into the lion enclosure who's to blame is it the lion yeah just lions no you're to blame you put your kid there yeah and look we got to take care right we know it's around we know it's about we know this stuff is is is a challenge it's a threat you'd have to go crazy with it you don't have to be like you know just everywhere you go just questioning anyone that like smiles at your kids and says hello or something but but look we don't want to be the man by whom the offense cometh doing we don't want to have be at least some way culpable and you know do you know what yeah I would be couple as well so would I pastor if that happened in this church and it was because I put I put kids at risk I'd set up a Sunday so well they seem like a nice person or I was turning a blind eye to this sort of stuff I am at least partly culpable aren't I and I would say anyone else in here you do the same it's the same isn't it we have to like that's part of our job isn't it part of the job of church leadership is protecting the church and there are like this stuff goes on a lot in churches by the way because they're just too busy getting the kids out so I get rid of them getting with someone get a break don't get the distraction everything else it's like why why and by the way it's not just the perverts what about the false prophets about a false prophets they try and get them young with that stuff don't they repent of your sins here give your life there just a little subtle one you know just so well I teach the kids ministry and then it's oh well I didn't mean it like that when I said oh yeah you got to give your life to Christ to be saying I don't know what I meant is you know get saying if anyone pulls you up it's a little subtle stuff they want to sow the seed and so little seeds constantly sowing often it's obviously work salvation seeds you know sometimes it's just blatant sometimes not jump forward a verse 14 verse 14 says even so it is not that the will of your father which see of heaven that one of these little ones should perish so you may need a break okay but church isn't for you to get a break churches Church get a break another time yeah church is a serious place it's a serious place where you need to have an eye on your kids not shove them off with some you don't know what they're teaching them know what they're doing you know what they believe and you know what if they're a predator they're more likely to go into that sort of job into that sort of role Sunday school versus family integrate number one Sunday school option number one we've just looked at is Sunday school during the church services I don't see many positives about that now number two we're gonna look at this one quickly because a lot of it's similar is Sunday school as well as the church services now this is gonna be quick like I said because some would say that that's the solution to a lot of that you know they learn in church they still have fun at the same time you know that there's a child aimed content you know the kids are a bit happier you know I don't have to listen to those ease and vows we get a nice full spiral version or something else yet we still haven't solved one of some of the big problems what are they teaching your kids so unless you're all in there as well well that's a church service isn't it unless you're all in there what they teach them how can you correct false doctrine unless you're there turn Ephesians 4 like I said kids are an easy target for this stuff okay Ephesians chapter 4 you're you're turning to and if you go no not my child my child you know they would never be conned they would never have their head turn they would never have doubt put into them they would never that my child's definitely saved I like they called the name the Lord at four years old three years old they got saved firstly that ain't happening okay and secondly look look we hope they did right however we want to make sure that those especially at those ages but even in the future there ain't around any false prophets hearing that sort of stuff Ephesians 4 14 says warns us that we henceforth be no more children toss to and fro this is sadly what happens to children toss to and fro carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slight of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive look kids are often carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slight of men and cunning craftiness so they're lying in wait for your kids they're lying in wait for child Christians for baby Christians so people that they think they can get to but also lying in wait for kids and these folks teach they're everywhere absolutely everywhere aren't they everywhere and and the one we've just covered if you're gonna do the world well Sunday school after and like I said of our church site I was at church where where they had this option as well that was pre pre the service who you leaving your kids with who are they who are you leaving your kids with now these are still massive problems okay and unnecessary problems okay you go well yeah but what about all that fun stuff what about all the games how about you homeschool and do the fun stuff with your children at home how about that play the games do the songs do the coloring in just maybe avoid like you know the dress wearing stuff yeah dude just do nice fun enjoyable stuff do the trivia but do it accurately and safely and leave the church for its purpose is a pillar and ground of the truth how about that not the pillar and ground of fun time yeah that's not what the Bible says the Church of the Living God the pillar and ground of fun time totally Sunday school versus family integrated option one was Sunday school during the church services option two is Sunday school as well as the church services they kind of go hand in hand really and then option number three is the family integrated church services and that's what we are we're a family integrated church we welcome kids of all ages in our services if you notice when you're looking around here but we have baby rooms linked up to the service for parents to use if needed okay if required the pros just some pros are they get used to real church they're kept safe with their parents they hear real preaching they sing real hymns you say okay I get it for the older kids but what about those poor youngsters what about those because you're Katie older kids yeah you know it's all those poor youngsters they just wanted like you know run around and do stuff well in Mark chapter 10 and verse 13 says this mark 10 13 where we started and they brought was it older children no they brought young children to him that he should teach them and his disciples rebuke those that brought them but when Jesus saw it he was much displeased and said unto them suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is a kingdom of God and by the way in the parallel passage in Luke 18 that return there we see them described as infants Luke 18 and verse 15 says they brought unto him also infants that he would touch them but when his disciples saw it they rebuke them but Jesus called unto him said suffer little children to come unto me etc these were young children okay infants could even refer to toddlers and younger right you say well what is a child of a couple of years old gaining some people would think that what's the point of them being in here yeah how about the Word of God how about familiarity with the sweet words of the Lord how about that how about getting used to real music music with a real wholesome purpose music that's not conformed to this wicked world because they're gonna hear a lot of other music just walking down the street aren't they how about the routine of church and church services yeah getting a routine of it they get used to it from young and that's without the words of phrases the themes that retain the seeds that are sown because kids you'd be surprised at what they will listen to and what will go in and by the way and we're not going to go there but just for sake of time the Prophet Samuel started living and working in the house of God young okay very young in fact just after he was weaned turn to Matthew 14 well I read Samuel 1 24 you turn to Matthew 14 Samuel 1 24 says of when she had weaned him she took him up with her with three bullocks and one e for a flower and a bottle of wine and by the way that's that's fruit juice and bought him unto the house of the Lord in Shiloh and the child was young he started working there from young serving God doing the things of God from young they didn't go well yeah no he didn't go yeah shove Samuel off somewhere for a while you know till he's old enough no he started from young but let's see some biblical evidence for family integrated services okay because you again you might be going okay I'll get all that you kind of picked few verses okay however where's the biblical evidence that kids were in church services or something like that well let's have a look here in Matthew 14 where John the Baptist had just been killed by Herod it says in Matthew 14 and verse 13 when Jesus heard of it he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart and when the people had heard thereof they followed him on foot out of the city so the people are coming to Jesus by the way like everyone did this morning they came to Jesus didn't they they came to church to come to the Lord Jesus Christ to hear the word of God preached to them yeah okay we're listening to Jesus talk to us with our Bibles aren't we and by the way I'm not trying to call myself cheese okay verse 14 says if Jesus went forth and saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion toward them and he healed their sick okay there's some spiritual healing that goes on in church too isn't there yeah there's some spiritual healing that goes on here in verse 15 says and when it was evening his disciples came to him saying this is a desert place and the time is now past send the multitude away that they may go into the villages and buy themselves rituals but Jesus said unto them they need not depart give you them to eat and they sound to him we have here but five loaves and two fishes he said bring them hither to me and he commanded the multitude sit down on the grass and took the five loaves and the two fishes are looking up to heaven he blessed and break gave the loaves to his disciples and the disciples to the multitude so there are many pictures here one of which is the disciples feeding the people with the word of God it gave fulfilled in the in the first New Testament Church verse 20 says and they did all eat and were filled and they took up the fragments that remain 12 baskets full were they just feeding the men just the adults were the Mary's and you know and others may be running a little arts and crafts session in the nearest cave and they that had eaten verse 21 were about 5,000 men beside women and children no this was a family integrated feeding wasn't it a family a integrated feeding picturing being fed the word of God jump forward to chapter 15 for a similar situation in verse 29 chapter 15 in verse 29 says in Jesus depart from thence and came nigh unto the Sea of Galilee and went up into a mountain sat down there and great multitudes came unto him having with them those that were lame blind dumb maimed and many others had cast them down at Jesus feet and he healed them so against spiritual healing going on in so much that the multitude wondered when they saw the dumb to speak the maimed to behold the lame to walk and the blind to see and they glorified the God of Israel and then Jesus called his disciples unto him said I have compassion the multitude because they continue with me now three days and have nothing to eat and I will not send them away fast unless they faint in the way and his disciples say unto him when shall we have so much bread in the wilderness is to fill so great a multitude Jesus said unto them how many loaves have you and they said seven and a few little fishes and he commanded the multitude sit down on the ground and he took the seven loaves and the fishes and gave thanks and break them and gave to his disciples and disciples to the multitude and they did all eat and were filled and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets for another picture of the early church kids down kids down the bottom of the mountain here do you think kids kind of left to it somewhere else maybe you know again a few women just kind of peeled off from the multitude and no and they that did eat were four thousand men beside women and children now you might go okay but those weren't actual New Testament Church services yeah okay yeah I don't like pictures of this that had a family there you're not proving anything there I think I am but however jump forward to Colossians 1 Colossians chapter 1 see a letter written to the Colossian Church by Paul so Colossians in chapter 1 to see a letter written to the Colossian Church by Paul Colossians 1 and verse 1 Colossians 1 1 says Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God and to Mothius our brother to the Saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colossae grace be unto you and peace from God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ now there's various teachings to the Saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colossae and commandments including in verse 18 it says talking about Christ and he is the head of the body the church who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead that in all things he might have the preeminence well jump forward to chapter 3 where he's clearly addressing this church he says in chapter 3 and verse 15 and let the peace of God rule in your hearts talk to the church right to the which also ye are called in one body clearly the church and be ye thankful then verse 16 that the word of Christ dwelling you richly in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another talking to the church agreed the body the church teaching and admonishing one another in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing with grace in your heart so Lord anyone here think that the kids aren't part of our church anyone think that yeah yeah well when we do it when we do the head count we just kind of pull out the kids right now the kids part of our church aren't they if they're a massive part of our churches they're part of our future church here as well more than most of us old you know getting older old men here verse 17 says on whatsoever ye do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord Jesus giving thanks to God and a father by him wives talk to the church still isn't he ye you wives these are wives in the church submit yourselves unto your own husbands as it is fit in the Lord husbands talk to the husbands in the church love your wives and be not bitter against them children obey the pastor's wife in all things no no sorry obey the other ladies of the children obey your parents in all things for this is well pleasing unto the Lord that's the Apostle Paul address the church and singling out the children in the church because children are part of the church and what do you think they did with this letter do you think that they they read it and then went oh we'll just read that little section to like the back room somewhere no he's talking the whole lot and and this is the case in his letter to the Ephesians by the way to Ephesians chapter 1 and verse 1 Ephesians 1 1 says Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God to the Saints which are Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus so he's right to the Saints are faithful and guess who's included amongst them look at chapter 6 and verse 1 Ephesians 6 1 he's writing to the Saints which are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus oh brackets and those annoying kids distract the church service no they're part they're included that's who he's addressing and in Ephesians 6 and verse 1 he's talking to those children children children obey your parents in the Lord for this is right because they're part of the church honor thy father a mother which is the first commandment with promise that it may be well with thee yet now may it's live long on the earth and you fathers provoke not your children to wrath but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord yeah you're told you're told to bring them up in nurture and admonition of the Lord and one way is by them being in church with you you're bringing them to church not bringing them to church and then shove them off somewhere else hearing the scriptures they hear the scriptures in church and by the way you don't have to know 2 Timothy 3 15 Timothy was reminded and that from a child thou has known the Holy Scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus Timothy knew that from a child he heard them from a child he wasn't just busy singing happy clappy songs out in the back Proverbs 20 11 says even a child is known by his doings whether his work be pure and whether it be right look the kids here it's not that they're just here as an add-on we hope they work out when they're when their adults know the kids are here to grow to improve to be to be clean to be sanctified by the Word of God they're here to be improved as well and some of the preaching sometimes will do bits which is specifically at the kids because they're just as much part of the church as anyone else however with all that in mind there are some potential cons of the family integrated church there are some cons so I want to finish the sermon with some rules that our pastor drew up a while back okay there are some rules for the family integrated church that our pastor drew up a while back and I have read them out to the church but it was about a year and a half possibly ago now that I last kind of went through all these unless I maybe did it in the middle I'm not sure and and these rules should help to prevent many of the problems that can arise okay so these are family integrated rules for our church's Shaw Foundation Baptist Church and and you know when we're an independent church in the future we're gonna probably stick pretty much to all of these rules anyway okay because I think these are some great rules okay by someone that's got experience of being in both he's been at churches one and churches which are over the years and obviously has run his own church for many years now rule number one parents should be training children at home to sit through services the best time is at family devotional time so look the church yeah look they're gonna need some correction and you need to training but ultimately the main training should be done at home okay and if you don't have a family devotional time you need a family devotional time okay for other reasons as well ultimately it's your responsibility to train your children up it's not just Sunday Sunday Church and the rest of the time it's back to the TV and everything else okay have family devotional time you know the best time for me with that is after dinner yeah you should find a time and make a way of working in your schedule a routine where you all eat together and then again you can have times when you can't when you have to work later on things but that should be a routine dads make time for your family make sure that you have a time when you sit around and eat together and at the end of that for me is a great time to teach the Bible to your kids go but what do I teach know where to start like what do you know what I decided a while back having tried different formats the best thing to do just go through the Bible so I've been just going through a chapter after dinner and teaching that chapter from Genesis through the Bible with my kids since I decided to do that we're coming up to the end of the book of Deuteronomy now and the kids are put hopefully looking forward to Joshua and judges and some battles going on now every week every day in fact but because it's most days of the week that we sit together eat a dinner and at the end we teach chapter the Bible to them and you go all I don't know what to see well learn it then you know what learn what you're gonna teach you before if you don't know how to teach that chapter and and that way in what you can if you could if you did that every day of the week in three years you would have talked the whole Bible to your family and gone through it chapter by chapter and you know what you can do after three years teach it again you might want to teach them some more stuff the next time yeah and and what a great way of doing it right and okay you might like well we do have Church the Sunday way okay for five five days a week you get through it in about four years great that for me is an easy way now look don't get me wrong sometimes it's like well if everyone is you know maybe someone's ill or there's an issue someone's not there for whatever reason we might go off and do something else for a bit I remember we had a kind of little timeout or we went through some 119 and went through each kind of section of eight verses and you know different things we do or maybe we thought oh we need to look at this topic today something we need to do separate but however is just a standard for me that's been a good one yeah someone might have something better I'm not saying that's a rule you have to stick to but do family devotional time and you know what they'll learn to do they'll learn to listen by because you know what at the beginning there was a point with this and we've been doing stuff like this similar for many years now but but at least for my James you know the Bible came out screaming shouting hold my hand you know it was it took a while and then again he pipes up a little bit but he's starting to learn well if I'm quiet we I listen to the Bible we get through it and then we move on after it's a great way to train the kids right the Bible comes out it's time to be quiet yeah and obviously you know there was a few challenges with that but look that was I think with Charlie we had the same you know we've had the same with the kids when they're young with that stuff but but they do get through it and they do get used to it number two rule number two use the baby rooms for the purpose of training children to sit quietly during the church service so we do have the baby rooms we've got the mother baby room we've got the mother baby room upstairs they're there for a reason they're there for a purpose to be able to use them to train your children if you need to now look some and I don't have a problem with this if you decide look it's just like being in there and in the seat they start to get all fidgety and funny I'm going to prefer to sit at the back we have an open plan back of the church no worries at all fine however if they're really kicking off and creating noise there's not like an invisible barrier of noise at the back there a noise barrier there so if they are in it you're at the back in there and you're like well they seem to be a bit happy a bit more content on the table at the back call but if they're really kicking off you need to take them away yeah just for that and it's part of the training isn't it and then and ideally use a baby room and you can still hear the service number three parents should not train children or calm down their children during church services please use the baby room so obviously what you don't want to be hearing it's like you be noisy and then you kind of hearing spank bottoms and stuff going on in in the church service obviously okay and and again if they need like really and if they're really kicking off then you know the polite respectful thing to do is to remove yourself from where it's going to distract people in the church service in a transitional phase where you're teaching children a sit through service please minimize distractions so you can have times where you're like yeah we're just about there and again just be respectful to others with that and again you don't have to go overboard like some people go really like you know the child breathe quick and leg it you know you don't have to go out but please don't do the opposite and just be like yeah well you know I'm not I'm not paying attention cuz I'm focused on the preacher and everyone else is like what's going on I mean these kids go whoa parents should promptly and quickly remove children from service as soon as they make distracting noises when they're screaming in the service people aren't listening to the preaching because they're distracted so he's not talking about you know a child whispers something or something else kids screaming and things like that that's the time to get up and remove them not well I think they're gonna be quiet in five minutes you know so we're gonna try you know the trainings done in in the baby room the trainings done at home ideally they'll be able to get through the service and and and there should be you know few kind of in and outs okay parents with babies or young children who are more likely to need calming down should sit near exit so you can take them out quickly so obviously we had before like some funny people marched their whole family up to the front of the church you know the little ones and it's just it's just silly you know if they need calming down everything else just be in a place where you can minimize distractions if you're coming out of the mother baby room more than two or three times per service your child may not be ready to sit through the entire service so what you don't want to see is like just a flapping door of the mother baby room because it does distract people and people are kind of glancing around listening and they've maybe lost their trail of thought with the sermon or listen they've missed the point or something else so you shouldn't be in and out in and out in and out don't expect to naught to two-year-old to sit through an entire service don't place unrealistic expectations on yourself for your children it's unrealistic to think they're going to be in subjection in every way shape or form okay and some people sadly kind of think that it's like a badge of honor or some sort of you know competitive thing that I'm gonna get my kid and I don't think we have that here but we did have some of that stuff before okay and we don't need look it's not so different kids are different that kid might be really quiet but you might be a right little thief you know that kid right well it might be really noisy but he's such a lovely really cocky you know it's just they're gonna be different and different different kids are gonna respond at different times of this stuff okay it's not a badge of honor begin to actively train a three-year-old to transition from the baby room in the Sunday evening service so if you can you know that's the sort of age to start trying to train them to be able to sit in the service children that are four should be expected to sit through the services unless there's a legitimate medical reason why they can't okay so that's our goal however if they can't they can't you're not like right they're four sitting there and they're like screaming shouting throwing things like he's four he's staying there okay no obviously they still need training but that's the goal okay number 11 it is appropriate for children age one to two to play quietly in the baby room you should not allow children of any age to scream or yell loudly in these rooms for long periods of time however because there's other mums in there aren't there okay so you don't want to be in the baby room your kids just throwing things around kick you off and everything else if that's the case we've got the second mother baby room for that as well and obviously then you need to work on the training a bit more and I know it can be hard number 12 don't allow your child to scream through the entire service okay so look you're gonna have to do some punishment then or something okay they need to understand they can't just be for example sitting in the baby room okay new families to the family integrated model should be given some time to adapt okay suggestion bring things for children to do quietly during church service no snacks things that make a bad mess so obviously one of our rules is no eating here so please don't do the old the old parent favorite which is just shove food in their mouth for an hour and a half look how good my child is you know after there's just this deluge of trotted in biscuit and other stuff okay okay but well you know new new families are not like I can't believe you your kids aren't useless well no but we're trying to train them up aren't we number 14 parents should not be holding long conversations in the mother baby room hmm I'm kidding I'm sure they're not okay but or sitting on their phones okay that's another oh no no my Bibles on my phone funny cuz it's flashing and seem to be like twiddling your thumb a lot of playing some sort of game don't come to church to take a nap I'm sure that I I've never seen that but you never know set the example to the other parents and children show some respect as you should have during the services yeah he clearly had an issue with this at his church so you know and fair enough we're gonna sit you were gonna repeat anyway and if you're setting a bad example the children will follow if you tell them something but you don't follow it then they'll feel why should I do it if you don't so obviously we're setting examples to our kids as well you know so if you're just in there in the mother baby room chatting about all sorts during the service how do you expect your kids not to want to chat throughout service and obviously it could be a problem then for other other mums don't want to go in the mother baby room because I'm not even gonna be able to hear the sermon because they just want to tell me all this and everything else right number 15 children after sitting through a long service should be allowed to play however without being too reckless or rambunctious okay so look they should be allowed to play okay we're not this isn't you know you got to sit still Baptist Church either however look we don't want them like trashing the place and you know doing doing cartwheels and handstands and everything else and charging around and look and they're gonna need some training with that as well you're gonna have to remind them sometimes I've said we had an ushers meeting of Thursday I did say to the ushers look you know you are allowed to say we're not like it must be a weirdo he said something to the kids yeah no the ushers are part of you know part of sort of you know the team for the day here and and especially not just when we're busy they might have to say to a kid sometimes that could you stop running around or stop doing that and I said then they have full full light allowance to do that to my kids as well okay so I've got no problem if one of the ushers says to my kids stop running or stop like doing you know summer salts on the nice steel bars at the back there you know at two years old or something cool please do you know sometimes you'll miss it and sometimes you talk to someone and you miss something okay so okay but we just saw that but they are allowed to play so it's not like they're playing quick get them okay train your children to and to not run in church and with young kids it might take a little while but they should be trained in the older kids kids you shouldn't be running around in the church number 17 dads help the mums and give them a chance to sit through the services now and then allow your wife to listen to some of the preaching to your wives need to hear the preaching to it's a good thing to do now and again dads you know and I would my I would say that look ultimately if you're the spiritual head and if you're someone who needs who should be going to scripture daily everything else as a father's leader of family I would say it is more important for you to hear the majority of the preaching and you can obviously teach your family and you can't do that if you're not at all however now and again to help your kids and it's not that you're in a back room you can't hear anything because you're still listening to the service anyway you still got a screen there you can still hear you can still you know be be obviously doing what your job should be and being the head of your family there but not a bad idea that either number 18 be part of the service and part of the after service we should all be singing together singing time and preaching time is a time to be in the service not chatting having coffee upstairs now we don't have a coffee room upstairs but we do have coffee at the back and sometimes that can be a bit of a struggle service starts and people are still something away and everything else okay but when the service starts you should be in the church and here's another one number 19 be on time yeah and this is something that I know some people have kind of maybe challenges of this and have reasons for it and sometimes there can be issues of traffic traffic and we have people that travel a bit but if you don't show up for work late every single time why should you show up for church late every single time I know this isn't quite really with the family integrated but you could say yeah if you come in with a big family especially and you walk in with like five kids or whatever it is you know and and and you know everyone's kind of sitting listening to the service then you walk in right and this one needs to go there and this one it's going to be even more distracting isn't it but for everyone he says here it's it's a distraction to some people if you like to church all the time what is that saying to God that's a good thing to think about isn't it for those of you that maybe have trouble with timing and getting to church on time and stuff like that you are coming to the house of God right if you don't think you're coming to the house of God well you probably better off to go somewhere else go to find a house Baptist yeah but if you come in the house of God we want to be on time right show respect to God and number 20 when the service starts we should be ready to engage in the service don't wait until the song service starts to get your coffee here it might be tea but still don't wait until the song service starts to use the toilet ten minutes early you should be letting your kids go to the bathroom and that's a good reminder isn't it for us we're gonna need to get our kids ready for the service don't then just shove a load of drink down them and and wonder why they need a wee in the middle of the service you know just simple things like that that's 20 rules that our pastor gave a while back I think they'll they're all good rules aren't they right and and with all of those it should help that family integrated model to work better and if it and if the majority are doing that when you people come in it's easier for them to just start to see how everyone else is doing things if you'd like you know if you want me to remind you of those at a later date I'll happily do that that was Sunday school versus family integrated kids for me look if we can get that right the family integrated model is the only model for me yeah but what we don't want it to be is then something which people have problems criticizing a finding fault with you know and everything else because of if we're not following kind of sensible rules like that with it it can become then more of a problem can't it okay however if we're doing it the right way yeah we're gonna have kids make the odd bit of noise yeah we're gonna have kids cause you a bit of distraction but you know what it's worth it for all the many reasons hopefully that you heard me explain to you this this sermon and we can minimize the negative effects of that and and if we try and do things the right way yeah so that was Sunday school versus family integrated I hope that that's helped you understand that a bit more and on that we're gonna finish in a way Heavenly Father thank for your word thank you for well for the kids here Lord thank you for the blessing of children thank you for the children we have in this church and Lord we we pray that you just help us to just raise them in the right way help us to be be the parents you want us to be here Lord and to do things in the right way in this church should be able to keep them safe not to keep everyone here in this church safe Lord help us to do that help the leadership here to do that and also help everyone here to just be aware of the potential dangers and things and to just make this a really safe nice just just not just safe and nice but an environment that kids can grow spiritually as well Lord help us to to just you know always just just appreciate the importance of the children here help us to get out this afternoon and get people saved on in return for this evening service in Jesus name for all of this amen