You
All right looks like we are finally live and we've got a great chat already we've got
Over 40 people and and we're just getting started. So this is gonna be a lot of fun
I want to welcome everybody to standing for truth on standing for truth
As you know, we focus on the truth of biblical creation
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Hit that subscribe button and you guys did not come here to see me you came here to see the debaters
Or the evening, so we've got smokey st. Matt Powell gentlemen
Thank you so much for giving us your time for tonight's very important debate. Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having us
Sft my pleasure. My pleasure. We're looking we're looking forward to this one tonight. We're gonna be debating
Eternal security versus conditional security. So this is an important debate before we hand it to the debaters just for
Some brief introductions who they are what's going on over at their ministry just to kind of break the ice
I do want to go over the format for everybody
So we're going to be starting off with between 10 and 12 minute opening statements followed by an 8 minute
uninterrupted rebuttal round
Then 40 minutes of discussion those are going to be broken up into 10-minute intervals
Where the debaters will be asking each other questions
Then we're gonna end it with a 5-minute closing statement and of course an audience Q&A
So that being said, please make sure you're tagging me at standing for truth
That way I don't miss your questions looks like we're gonna have a lively chat tonight
So don't forget make sure you're tagging me that being said, let's hand it over to the debaters
Just to kind of break the ice
Matt
We can start with you. How you been what's going on? And what's going on over at your ministry?
Doing pretty good. Thanks so much SFT for having me on so everybody. My name is Matt
I run a YouTube channel just called Matt Powell official and so I deal with things like creation science the dinosaurs in the Bible
and so on and so forth and
creation versus evolution mainly
But lately I've been branching out onto some different topics and so
Eternal security is one of those things that I've always believed ever since I got saved when I was a child. And so that's
what we're gonna be discussing tonight and that's kind of where I'm moving my channel to temporarily is discussing that and
So I'm definitely looking forward to tonight's discussion
I like to focus on a topic at a time and so eternal security
It's one of those topics that I've decided to put my cross hairs on defending. So thanks for having me on
My pleasure my pleasure. Thanks for that introduction. We're definitely happy to have you Matt and
Smoky, thanks again for being here. You know, it's not your first time. We've had a few debates on this channel
So thanks again for giving us your time. What's going on? What's going on over at your channel a little bit about yourself pleasure
Well, thank you so much standing appreciate that. Yeah. Well, I am the smoky saint inspired by James 4 14 for what is your life?
It is even a vapor it appears for a little time and then vanishes away
My channel is about tackling the toughest most difficult hardest arguments and challenges against Christianity whether it comes from
Various faiths heresies blasphemies or even the God haters themselves. I want to tackle and take on any and all challenges headlong
I host regular streams in which the link to join the stream is always in the description
because I'm always looking for people to show the fortitude to stand up and see if their points and arguments and challenges are worthy of
Rebuttal and capable of standing the test of cross-examination and scrutiny. So please if you guys are interested in a dynamic
Interesting conversationally geared environment, please come on over and check it out the antics run rampant
The hilarity is high and we expose very interesting core intrinsic truths. So thank you so much. Appreciate it
My pleasure my pleasure
Yeah, we've got two seasoned debaters tonight. So this is definitely going to be one to remember
We've already got a great chat 65 people waiting to see you guys duke it out Stan
So this is gonna be a lot of fun
Matt and smoky
Why don't we hand it to Matt now for your opening statement Matt since you've got between 10 and 12 minutes
What I'll do is give you a minute a warning at the 10-minute mark and just say hey, you know start start wrapping it up
And we'll kind of go from there
So and I'll say if you guys ever want to share
Slides or screen share anything just let me know and I'll make sure I do that. So that being said Matt
I'm gonna hand it over to you. The floor is yours
Thanks so much sft a thank you smoky for being willing to do this debate. I'm definitely excited about it
I think it's gonna be a good one. So eternal security versus conditional security
If we just look at the two phrases we can tell that there's one that is eternity
Uses the word eternal and the word eternal means everlasting Jesus said in John 6 47
Verily verily I say unto you he that believeth on me hath everlasting life
And so that's what I believe is an eternal security eternal salvation
And so what I'm debating tonight against is conditional security. Well, just the phrase conditional security
Puts a limit I believe on the grace of God and on the power of the cross
And the reason that is is because that's saying that the love of Christ is conditional
One of the most hateful things that anybody could do is actually send somebody to hell
It's one of the things that the Lord didn't want to do
but it's because people have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ that he will someday send people to hell and so
You know the Bible says for those of us who are saved
It says nothing shall separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord Paul even says Ryan persuaded
That neither death nor life nor principalities nor powers nor angels
No things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature
That means even ourselves shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
So nothing can separate us from the love of God. Once you're saved. You're always saved Jesus said in John 5 24
He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me half everlasting life
So if you have everlasting life
By default by definition everlasting is life that goes forever
So Jesus says that the moment that you believe on him and on his father that you have
Everlasting life and so that goes on forever. And so if at some point you could lose it it was
Then that would not be everlasting
That would be temporary redemption life until you mess up life until you do wrong life until you lose your salvation or forfeit it
and so
And then the next part of the verse in John 5 24, he says and shall not come into condemnation
So Jesus actually prophesies he says but it's passed from death unto life
So Jesus prophesied that once you get saved you shall not come into condemnation
You will never be condemned you are passed from death unto life
And so those are some pretty powerful words that tell us that once we trust Christ
Once we are saved we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise the bottle says in Ephesians 4 30
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God
Whereby you're sealed into the day of redemption. So here's the thing
When you're sealed by the spirit of God, you know
That's a powerful thing and you're sealed until the day of redemption not until the day that you mess up
Not until the day that you slip up or lose your salvation
And just the phrase lose your salvation sounds weak. I mean it just just the idea sounds ridiculous to somebody that's saved
You know
The Bible says that the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God
And neither can he know them their foolishness unto him because they are spiritually discerned. So
People that believe that they can lose their salvation
they are
Trusting the natural man. They're trusting what comes naturally. It's not based in the Bible. It's not based on any scripture
It's certainly not based on how God feels about things
Jesus said I will never leave thee nor forsake thee in the old testament. It says it is he that goeth with thee
He will not forsake thee
So you may forget God the Bible talks about the woman that forgetteth the God of her youth
But he will never turn his back on you even though you may turn your back on him. We are the bride of Christ
Jesus said in in a marriage
You're not supposed to leave your spouse and God would never leave us or abort us or murder us
Like I said earlier the Bible says that nothing shall separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus
And so some of the common places that people will
Go to try to debunk eternal security
is they'll go to
Where the Bible says where Jesus said many will say unto me in that day
Lord, lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works
Lord, why aren't you letting us into heaven? They're saying we've done all these many wonderful works and then Jesus will profess unto them
He says I never he says then I will profess unto them I never knew you
Now I want you to notice he didn't say I used to know you and you lost it
Or I don't know you anymore
No, he says if you go to hell
He never knew you
He didn't know you at one point and then you lost it
He says that if you go to hell if you die without him
He's going to say to you one day that I never knew you
And the bible says
That for whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
The lord jesus and believe in thine heart that god hath raised him from the dead
Thou shalt be saved not thou might be saved thou could be saved if you continue going and endure to the end
The bible says point blank thou shalt be saved. There's simplicity in the gospel folks smoky
There is simplicity in the lord jesus christ the bible says in corinthians 11 verse 3 that
uh
But I fear this is what paul said to the church
He says but I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled he through his subtlety
So your mind should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in christ
So the bible tells us that there's simplicity in the lord jesus christ and that there's simplicity in salvation
And so salvation is not complicated
And so no matter what any internet teacher might say or any person might preach the bible says it's simple simple as what?
Well believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved
If i'm climbing a rock climb and smokies down on the bottom holding me up
And what if I was to look down at smoky and say smoky I believe in you smoky hold on to me
Don't let go I believe in you
In other words, I trust you believe in trust or used interchangeably throughout the bible
In fact, the bible says in whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation
In whom also after that ye believed you were sealed with that. Holy spirit of promise
So when you trust christ as your savior you're sealed and when you believe on his name
You are protected and kept by the power of god the bible says for you are kept by the power of god
And so my salvation isn't determined by my works
And i'm not going to limit the power of the cross
to whether I endure to the end or not and
You know people will say and I I would assume this may even come up tonight people will say well
Can't you just give the gift back, you know for by grace so you save through faith and then out of yourselves
It's the gift of god and they'll quote the scripture. Well, can't you just give a gift back?
Well, here's the thing. Jesus said you must be born again if you're born into god's family. How can you be unborn?
They say well, what if you stop believing? Well, here's the thing if we believe not
Yet he abideth faithful. He cannot deny himself the bible says
So he can't deny his own blood
And when you're saved and when you've trusted christ, you're born into his family and no matter what nothing that you do can
Make you become unborn
Jesus said if I have told you of earthly things and you believe not
How should you believe if I tell you of heavenly things so jesus compared salvation to birth
Jesus compared salvation to drinking a glass of water you're eating a piece of bread or opening a door and walking through it
In fact, he even said in john 6 35. I am the bread of life
He that cometh to me shall never hunger and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. So once you're saved you're always saved
What like I said earlier nothing can separate us from his love. This is fundamental, uh truth of the bible. This is a
Fundamental of the faith. This is something that if somebody rejects I would consider them to be a heretic
I'm, not going to sit here and hate on my opponent over his rejection of the truth here tonight
I would hope that he would come over to our side and start preaching eternal life to folks on the internet and across the world
And so that's what we preach is ever the everlasting gospel
And so the thing is, you know, once you're born into god's family if I believed that my dad was no longer my dad
At some point that wouldn't change the fact that he's still my dad
So people say well, what if you stop believing?
Number one if you stop believing if we believe not yet he abideth faithful
He cannot deny himself and then number two logic just shows that if you believe that your father is no longer your father
It doesn't change the fact that he still is how much time do I have left sft?
You've got about two minutes
Okay
So all throughout the bible we have work salvation that people believed and we have
Salvation that literally proved beyond any shadow of doubt that work salvation is not true
For example, you know adam and eve they tried to cover themselves after that
They had sinned and believing you can lose your salvation more or less
What you're saying is that your works are going to keep you justified before god
And so adam and eve tried selling fig leaves together after that they had sinned and when that happened the lord
Actually slew an animal
Them with animal skins that was a picture of death as an atonement for sin
I mean you look at cain and able cain brought forth
Of the fruits of the ground of his own work and brought him before the lord
But the bible says that the lord had no respect to cain's offering
But the lord accepted abel's sacrifice his substitute see in order to be saved. You have to have a substitute
What about the tower of babel same thing? They were trying to work their way up to god
Using their works if it be of grace then it is no more of work
Otherwise grace is no more grace and if it be of work that it is no more grace
Otherwise work is no more work. So
You know over and over we see once saved always saved all throughout the scriptures. I mean the passover is a perfect example
They would apply the blood to the doorpost one time
Which is literal proof that once you apply the blood to the doorpost you were saved you were protected from the death angel the death
The death angel came over the house and there was no issues. They did not slay the firstborn
Child and so, you know, they only passed through the red sea once and the people were saved
These are all pictures of salvation, you know
Jesus said as moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the son of man be lifted up
So in the same way that they would look to the serpent and be healed back in the old testament
That's the way that we look to christ for salvation. It's that simple remember
Salvation is about simplicity the simplicity of the gospel
And there were times in the bible. There's one time in particular where a man asked what must I do to be saved?
To the disciples and they responded believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shall be saved
They didn't say go to church and you'll be saved
Live a good life and you'll be saved get baptized and you'll be saved paul said for I came not to baptize but to preach the gospel
So if baptism and the gospel were the same thing that wouldn't make any sense and so
um with that
30 seconds, so, you know, we've covered a lot of things here
And I hope that everybody's been able to keep up. All right
um
You know, it's it's truly impossible to love god if you believe you can lose your salvation
Because you're going to constantly be in fear that your works aren't good enough
And if you're serving god out of fear, that's not true love true love serves god or gives back to your father
If he truly loves you and you'll always be his son
Nothing can separate us from the love of god folks. Once you are saved you are always saved
We've been passed from death into life if we've trusted in christ
And the bible says that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the lord jesus and believe in thy heart that god hath raised him
From the dead thou shalt be saved. Thanks sft
Awesome just on time matt and I will say before I hand it over to smoky. Uh, we've got a a great chat
We've now got over 80 people. I see a lot of questions coming in. Thank you so much for the good questions
Just make sure you are tagging me that being said, uh, everything looks good now
So we're going to hand it over to smoky smoky you have between 10 and 12 minutes
and
Um, I actually did prepare a little presentation because there's verses to reference and I didn't want to waste time necessarily reading the verses
So I kind of put them on the screen. Is that cool?
Absolutely. Okay, let me get a share screen going
Okay
Um, can you guys see the screen? Okay and everything
Yes, okay, beautiful. All right, excellent. Okay
Well sincerest thanks to standing for truth for hosting this epic
Abette, uh epic event for matt powell taking the time and agreeing to this exchange
And to the loyal audience that is here to be enriched by the exploration of this very important topic
To begin I want to share some personal testimony on this issue
I've never really heard of the free grace or osas or lordship salvation before the last few months
This is all proven to be relatively new in a spiritual quest for me and challenging my long-held views of the gospel and the path
of salvation
Having spent a couple weeks in deep research and study on this topic. I have come to find out something interesting
Both sides out here have areas that are just bat crap crazy people on both sides of this
Soteriology on the free grace side. There are those who say you can live like the devil and go to heaven
And on the lordship salvation side, there are sinless perfectionists who believe that you never sinned at this point
This debate has started to look much like a bowling alley
There is a lane in the middle where I think we have healthy agreements and gutters on both sides
Let's try to all help each other stay out of the gutters and I hope that tonight will help this be the case
In my research I found dozens of verses that could have supported my case against the stance of infinite salvific security
But I have tried to focus on the most poignant and all-encompassing passages that I could find
Some of the ones that are a personal challenge from seeing any value or truth in this osas claims that are put forth
That once saved there is no way you can ever not be saved
Well, what is it to be saved every osas or free grace proponent I have found claims that once you have accepted the true gospel
You are regenerated and there is nothing that you can do to become alienated from salvation after this point
But is this really the case? I believe there are a few passages that would challenge us to not view salvation this way
Matthew 13 20 here
We see multiple different soils in the parable of the sower and the seed each one receiving the word of god
However, only the last seed finds good ground and bears fruit
The thematic carry-through of this is with christ's words later on in other passages about a saved soul being one that bears fruit
One of the seeds finds someone who accepts the message with joy, but then is choked out by the cares of the world
They received it with joy when that make them saved in the osas free grace view
Acts 8 verse 13 in this passage
We see a sorcerer who believes the message of the apostles is baptized then follows philip for a time
At seeing the apostles laying their hands on people and giving them the holy spirit peter issues a sharp and very informative rebuke
Peter says in verse 20
But peter said unto him thy money perish with thee because thou hast thought that the gift of god may be purchased with money
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter for thy heart is not right in the sight of god
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness and pray god if perhaps and this is an important point or if possible as in shining
Uh doubt on the chance that maybe he couldn't be forgiven of this sin the thought of thine heart may
Be forgiven thee for I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity
Then answered simon and said pray ye to the lord for me that none of these things which he have spoken come upon me
It is important to me to note that this man was a believer who was seemingly saved by even the more liberal of osas definitions
He was following philip as to his salvific status if indeed was not oh, i'm sorry
He was fooling philip as to his salvific status if indeed he was not saved
But is then rebuked and warned in such a fashion with doubt that he may even be forgiven of this horrendous offense
Makes you wonder if hebrews 6 really is talking about reprobates who have been delivered to full
Accountability of the message of grace and then knowingly depart from it. This may be a path of the reprobate
So people, uh have to have the right gospel and the right gospel is osas or free grace
This is what i've heard
I've heard some osas proponents will propose that you have to have the right gospel to be saved and the right gospel is osas
In my research I couldn't find any mention of anything really resembling this doctrine
Until the time of john calvin in the 1500s with his doctrine of the preservation of the saints
Where god is proactively preserving and protecting his chosen to prevent them from possibly falling away
I'm, not sure I would be comfortable holding to an idea that the first 1500 years of christianity had a false gospel
But that is just me
moving on I want to draw attention to the fact that even with the most liberal definition of
One that is saved it seems to show that the person is still open to falling away from the faith
This is a stern warning and not one that I think can be chalked up to the difference between discipleship and sonship
This is a weighty warning to not put a novice into the office of bishop or church authority
Lest they actually end up under the same condemnation as the devil
Imagine that someone young full of fire for the lord believing in the faith so as to be considered for church authority
And this is warned against lest they fall under the condemnation of the devil
Unless we want to start saying the devil has sonship
I think we should not consider all these warnings to just be warnings about lost rewards and failed discipleship
Matthew 6 15
We need our sins to be forgiven in order to be saved if we believe on christ
We have faith that this is the case and if we have faith we will regard his commands and here we have a clear
Conditional that has been placed on us that if we refuse to forgive men their trespasses against us
Then neither will our heavenly father forgive our sins
This is a stern warning and seems to fly in the face of the osas doctrine that there is nothing you can do
Uh after you believe to not be saved
revelation 22 19 from both revelation 17 8 and colossians 3
We know that those that are in the book of life were inscribed there before the foundations of the world yet if one is found
In that book and commits this grave sin against the scripture then god has promised to remove them from the book of life
If this isn't a definitive warning against doing something that can cause you to lose your salvation
Then I don't know what is
This is a passage that I think should be taken very seriously. This is second peter 2 19 through 22
Here is a warning about false teachers many parts of this passage stand out
But the most meaningful to start focus on is the statement that they escaped the pollutions of the world
I find it hard to believe this could be said of anyone who is not saved after all
We know that if you walk in the spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh in romans 8
Therefore if they escape the pollutions of the world
I have every reason to believe that for a time they were quote unquote walking in the spirit
The verse finishes by saying the end result for these would be worse than if they had never found the path of righteousness
While the automatic defense says that these were false converts the fact that they were under the justification
Of the spirit to escape the pollutions of the world
Tells me that they were more likely saved at least as osas tend to define it more than likely that they were not saved
And to summarize I would uh think that there is a clear warning about the path of salvation being an
ongoing work instead of an instantaneous epoch in chronological personal history whether or not we were ever saved
May be a summation at the end of our lives rather than a reference point to a single moment in our lives
Christ tells us in john 17 3 and this is eternal life that they might know thee
The only true god and christ jesus whom thou hast sent but is this a moment or an ongoing action?
John 11 26 and whoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die believeth thou this
John 15 tells us that we are to abide in him in an ongoing action
I believe that this is telling us to abide in our faith
And that there are warnings for this failure that end up in being cut off and thrown into the fire
Which I believe is reiterated in the warnings of romans
1122 where we are told to continue in his goodness lest we be cut off
We know there are those that will depart the faith and the promise of the great apostate in first timothy 4 1 and second
Thessalonians 2 3 how can you depart something you were never a part of?
To finally nail this point home
I will read the warning given by the writer of hebrews in the third chapter verses 12 through 14
Take heed brethren and yes, if you look earlier in the text
It does look like he's actually talking to brethren not just fellow jews, but actually fellow jewish believers
And he says take heed brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living god
But exhort one another daily while it is called today lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin
For we are made partakers of christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence fast unto the end
Perhaps this is why the warning to examine ourselves as to whether we are in the faith is so important as said in second carinthians
13 5 because it is a real warning to really see if we are in the faith not trust in false security of osas
Free grace doctrine. Thank you with that. I will yield
All right, perfect smoky with a few minutes to spare so I appreciate that
Clear concise opening presentations from the both of you that being said we are now moving into the eight-minute
rebuttals
And we're going to hand it over to matt
matt if you're uh, if you have some connection issues
From here on out. I know you had a little bit issues there during smoky's opening my recommendation
Would be to shut off the the webcam to save bandwidth looks good now, though
I'm not saying you have to do that now, but uh, just keep that in the back of your mind for later
So that being said matt the floor is yours. You've got an eight-minute rebuttal and I will start it on your first word
Sounds good. Can I share my screen real quick?
Definitely, uh, I predicted a few of these I want to say right off the bat
My internet has been so screwed up. So I caught
I caught
Maybe half of the things that you said smoky. So I apologize for that. I'm going to answer what I did here
Okay, we're going to work with it
So yeah, let me just answer what I did here. So obviously I heard you going to second peter
um
First the first thing that you said was uh that people say well are we not regenerated?
well, the bible literally says in
Titus 3 5 it says not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy
He saved us by the washing of regeneration
And renewing of the holy ghost. So when you trust christ, you've been regenerated. You've been redeemed and so that is actually
100
Biblical that we have been regenerated. I just wanted to point that out. So your passage here that you pointed out was second peter 2
It says for if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge notice the wording
The lord and savior jesus christ. So is the knowledge of the lord and savior going to save you?
Well, obviously not you've got to trust jesus as savior. The bible says that all men
will be enlightened with the knowledge of god and so
And it says and they are entangled therein and overcome the latter end is worse with them than the beginning
For it would have been better for them to have not known the look at the wording way of righteousness
Those are the commandments then to after they had known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them
But it has happened and notice the wording here onto them according to the what the true proverb the dog is returned to its vomit again
so
Would god ever refer to his children or one of his child's as a dog?
The dog is obviously referring to the unsaved if it happened according to the true proverb. This is somebody that was never saved because
The dog is turned again to its own vomit and so people may clean up their life
People may have the knowledge of god the bible says the spirit of god is wooing every man and so
Just because people have that knowledge doesn't necessarily mean that they are saved
The bible says that jesus christ in john 1 9 is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world
Well is every man saved?
Absolutely not. So this has happened according to the true proverb. The bible says what was the proverb that the dog returned to its vomit?
That's talking about somebody that was never saved and I wanted to point that out
Since I figured you would bring that up now hebrews 6 is also a very famous one that will get brought up
It says for it is impossible for those who are once enlightened and people say oh stop right there
That's somebody that got saved. They were enlightened
Well, actually no
Jesus christ is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. They say well they tasted of the heavenly gift
All right. Well, wait a minute. Jesus tasted of the vinegar upon the cross, but he would not receive it
You see the bible says for as many as received him to them gave he the power to become the sons of god
So tasting and receiving are two completely different things
He would not receive the vinegar when he tasted it and were made partakers of the holy ghost
People say oh, this is somebody that got saved. No, the bible says that the holy ghost is wooing every man unto himself
Judas who was never saved the bible says that he obtained part of the ministry
and it tasted again
Somebody that didn't receive the word of god and the powers of the world to come if they shall fall away to renew them
Again into repentance seeing they crucify to themselves the son of god afresh and put him to an open shame
So there's a group of people out there that will fall away
from
The knowledge of the savior and they that's basically their last chance. They will never be renewed to repentance
They'll never get another chance to repent. They're twice dead
And notice in verse eight here. It says
That which beareth thorns and briars is rejected and is nyan of cursing
Well, wait a minute in matthew 7 18. Jesus said that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit
Well, what do we have here? We have evil fruit thorns and briars things that didn't come into being until after man fell and so
It says that a good a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit
So a saved person cannot bring forth evil fruit now when it talks about fruit
It's talking about the fact that we get people saved
The bible says for example in proverbs 11 30 that the fruit of the righteous is a tree of life
And he that win its souls is wise
So winning souls is what our fruit is. And so I noticed you brought up, uh
You also brought up
Let me see what else did you bring up you brought up first simothy six, uh, three six
About how some are novices
A novice should not be ordained lest they be lifted up with pride and fall under condemnation of the devil
Well, here's the thing there are saved people who fall under the condemnation of satan all the time
I mean you look at the man that was caught in fornication in the church with his father's wife
And paul said let him be delivered unto satan
For the destruction of the flesh. So there's somebody right there that was delivered under the devil
And they were condemned and then paul said that his spirit may be saved in the day of judgment
so
Just the fact I mean you can take these verses
That may sound like you could actually be condemned to hell the same the condemnation of the devil
but if you don't compare scripture with scripture you're going to
Read things inaccurately and come to false conclusions and like I said earlier the natural man receiveth
Not the things of the spirit of god and they are foolishness unto him and neither can he know them because they're spiritually discerned
and so
Saul, for example, if anybody could have lost their salvation, I mean talk about a novice saul. He was lifted up with pride
He's a perfect example of somebody that fell into condemnation of the devil
The bible says that the lord departed from him. God became his enemy and the kingdom was delivered to david
And then when saul raised up with the witch of endor raised up samuel
Samuel said to saul tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me
So saul went directly to be with samuel the bible says to be absent from the body is present with the lord
So saul went to be with samuel with the lord. What about samsung samsung committed suicide?
That was definitely a novice thing to do
He was delivered unto satan death is of the devil and the bible says in hebrews 11 that he's in the hall of faith
And that he's part of the cloud of witnesses
So these are people that died in sin turn their back on the lord could have been novices if you will
And died sinners the bible says the thought of foolishness is sin
So these people it just literally proves just from the old testament that there was eternal salvation
And that the idea of mokey's putting forth is unsupported and built on scriptures out of context. Thanks guys
Eight seconds to spare so I appreciate that
You got eight minutes my good man whenever you're ready. Thank you so much to fulfill a contractual obligation to mr
Kincaid i'll shout out epigamic moment dot com times three. Yeah, I just said times three
I'm, not saying it three times deal with it. Okay moving on to the rebuttal period so
Um, there's a few things that he said in his uh rebuttal that i'm kind of wait
I'm, just going to push it back to the cross examination so that we can unpack those a little bit more
I'd like to start off by going over. Um, james two
Um, this is something I would like to kind of add into the mix of the conversation here
Because I think it does take this to another uh layer, um in terms of an understanding of our, you know position, you know in salvation
And it says faith without works is dead. What doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have not works
Can faith save him there seems to be a clear rhetoric device being put in place to draw into question
So whether or not you think it is reasonable
To believe that dead faith or faith without works can actually save you
Verse 15 if a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food
And what have you saying to them depart in peace be warned and filled notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful
To the body what doth it profit even so faith if it have not works is dead being alone
Yea, a man may say thou hast faith and I have works show me thy faith without thy works
And I will show thee my faith by my works
Which I do believe is what the osassers are usually claiming us to do
Thou believeth that there is one god thou doest. Well the devils also believe and tremble
But wilt thou know o vain man that faith without works is dead was not abraham
Our father justified by works when he had offered isaac his son upon the altar and I think that's an interesting point
actually just to to
Exhaust that a little bit more. Um, the idea of abraham saying yeah, sure god
I'll go offer my son up and then he never actually did it
It would cause him to question whether abraham really had the faith that god was going to be faithful to his promise if he never acted
Upon that position in his heart
To verse 22 seeest thou faith wrought with his works and by works his faith made
Perfect
See, that's what the I think part of this issue is we could possibly have false faith
And real faith and we won't know that unless we examine ourselves verse 23
And the scriptures was fulfilled which saith abraham believed god and it was imputed unto him for righteousness
And he was called the friend of god
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only
Likewise also was not rehab the harlot justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way
For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also
How we live how we choose to live proves what we believe if I was to claim to you
Well, I believe that the snow in the mountains is basically sugar and that clouds are made out of concrete
Well, if i'm not willing to fund an exposition to go set up a sugar packing plant on the top of mount
Everest or if i'm not willing to go take a stroll on a cumulus
You might say i'm full of crap and much is the same with an individual who claims to believe in christ
And there's absolutely no evidence of it in their lives and believe this is why we should examine ourselves
Um, i'll move on to a few notes that he had from his rebuttal. Um, let's see
So he said, uh rejecting christ at the very beginning of his opening he said rejecting christ will send people to hell
I couldn't agree more
The question is do we lose our free will ability?
once we make this choice once do we all of a sudden lose the ability to apostize or to reject the faith or
Absorb a damnable heresy which we're warned to avoid do we neglect the warnings of god?
The the scripture that he's left to keep us on guard as a cow prod to stay in the truth
Do we neglect these things neglect the warnings of the work of the holy spirit being a collective work of the church teachers?
and also the uh
The actual uh word itself all of these in the trinity working in the believer to guide them to all truth
Can we neglect all of these warnings?
Can we decide to make our own path define our own christianity create our own god?
Just form something from versions of christendom and something else and yet still claim
Well, I believe in christ as my lord and savior. No, I believe that in accordance with uh,
John you have to believe in the true god, which I believe is john 17 3
You have to believe in the true god the one true god and jesus christ who sent him
And I believe that oneness heresy is damnable. I believe most people that are trinitarians believe it's either damnable or extremely dangerous
So what is it going to profit someone that can't claim they believe in the oneness christ?
If they're not believing in the right god, sometimes I think there's some nuance to this question of salvation
Then it's typically more given out than by the osas side than what they're comfortable with
Said he that believeth
You brought this up that he that believeth in christ and yes, I agree
But I don't believe that this is a singular epoch moment
Which is why we have warnings like in john 15 to abide in and to continue
In the faith like we have in hebrews 3 which I brought up at the end
That there's an idea of a call for an ongoing act even with the
Regeneration as you claimed or the quote-unquote taking on of the new man
The passage passages talk about the taking on of the new man, which I think is colossians
Three and I forget the other one. Uh, these are talking about a proactive command not a state of some
Supernatural moment where you believed and something was done but a proactive command to take on
The new man on a proactive status on a daily status on an ongoing type of action that is the command inside the text
Um, you also mentioned the bride of christ and that god would never leave us. I actually agree with this
I think that if you do abide in christ, he will never forsake you or leave you. Um,
Maybe even if we commit sports spiritual fornication. I'm not sure about that
I mean if we start fornicating with other gods and going after other deities or strange doctrines or heresies
I mean, can we be so certain that we still have our salvation aren't there warnings in the book to?
Believers who are believing in the gospel to heed these warnings lest they not fall away
Or take on the doctrines of demons or the teachings of antichrist
I don't want to wager that someone can be saved
After they accept osas and then they absorb oneness heresy or the teachings or doctrines of devils
Um, matthew seven comes up. How much time do I have here standing?
You have uh, one minute and 15 seconds beautiful matthew seven comes up
Um, even if I do concede that these are false converts
They aren't boasting over keeping the law but good works to cover their failure of the law
Hence lawlessness lawlessness is defined as sin. I forget the passage. I think it's in galatians
Lawlessness is defined as sin
So these people are said that they are abandoning all semblance of the law in order to do these positive
Proactive things to make up for their failures and ignoring of the law and the dictations of christ about the christian living and conduct
Um first corinthians 3 32nd warning against mine being corrupted
Why would this matter if osas is true if you have the sound doctrine prior to corruption?
Why be warned about the corruption? Um, I I have more but i'll yield there. Okay
Awesome, okay
Uh, thank you smoky. Thank you matt for your eight minute rebuttals. I appreciate it
Also to the chat. We got a great chat. We got 100 people in the chat. So please
Uh, keep tagging me with your questions because it's really hard to keep up with right now
So anyways now we are moving into the discussion portion of the debate
Now the way we have this broken up, okay guys is
uh in 10 minute intervals where we will start with
Matt since matt, uh started us off with his opening presentation leading the way asking smoky questions
That being said, uh, we still want to keep this
More so organic and free-flowing as compared to just a strict cross examination. We still want to keep it
uh more so like like a discussion, but we want both debaters to feel like they're
Uh able to ask the necessary question
So that being said enough for me, let's hand it over to you guys for the floor
Matt you can start and i'll have 10 minutes on the clock. Go ahead. Let the anecdotes flow
Sounds good
So in psalm 89, I just want to I want to quote one scripture that demolishes everything you said there
So, uh, it's four verses psalm 89 verse 30
It says if his children forsake my law and walk not in my judgments if they break my statutes and keep not my commandments
Then they're going to lose their set and i'm just kidding. It says then will I visit their transgression with the rod?
And their iniquity with stripes nevertheless my loving kindness. Will I not utterly take from him nor suffer my faithfulness to fail?
my covenant will I not break in your
Period there you said that uh, you know, he will never leave us or forsake us as long as we abide in him
Well, that's not what it says. It just says he will never leave us or forsake us. So my question to you
Would be how do you justify the fact that the bible says that we've been given eternal life?
How do you justify that ending at some point when we stop believing or when we do enough bad works?
Well, yeah, not necessarily like do enough bad works by the way, just to clarify that
Yeah, that's fine
But but I would say that what some what someone's heart is just to get this out of the way
What someone's heart is like in in the uh in the path of sin matters?
Whether they are struggling or whether they have accepted like a seared, you know, iron like a seared conscience
Like someone who's basically engaging in reprobate behavior would be a sign of something else
I would say it's it's a it's a matter not of what they're doing
But the heart behind what they're doing
I know there's people that struggle
In sin, but still have the pull of the holy spirit to feel the conviction and struggle against it and fight
And those people I would say are showing fruit of of potential salvation again
I'm
I'm a little conscientious about wanting to definitively say and i'm sorry if i'm avoiding your question
I just wanted to make sure I got that out of the way, but if you could restate it, I apologize
Let's say I stopped believing that my physical father was my dad. It wouldn't change the fact that he's my dad
So if I stop believing that god was my father, I stopped believing in him. How is that any different?
Well, because the call is you see even said in your opening the thing we have to do we have to believe on jesus
So if we don't believe on jesus, then we shouldn't be saved. I mean, that's just a simple I mean, that's just a simple thing
You know, we have we have a call
Aren't you born again at one point? So if you're born again, how can you be unborn? How can you undo?
Well, yeah, and I don't know if that's a I don't know if that's a healthy strong equivocation to use because again
It's not even necessarily that issue of sonship like technically all of us all of us are made in the imago day the image of god
so all of us have a form of sonship, but
No, but I know i'm not going
Yeah, you okay fair enough fair enough
I'm, sorry, i'm not going i'm not i'm just saying that there is there is a correlation when we use different terminologies at different times
It's not that you you quiv, you know equivocated singular definition every single time. That's all I was saying
So when you talk about you're using this definition of like well, you know, you can't be unborn once you're born again
Or regenerated in the spirit. I I get where you're coming from on that but the idea of that being this somehow
Miraculous, you know you yourself have changed as opposed to the real change that I see has happened is the spirit dwells in you
Now and i'm careful using the old testament passages like I know you just did I would have another example
But i'll make this simpler. I would be careful using that because it says that the spirit of god departed. Saul
So the so saul was anointed he had the spirit of god. I don't know necessarily inside him
I'm not comfortable saying that but at least with him in terms of his anointing
Of his office and then saul reached a point of his rebellion
That god departed and much like just with the jews in the in the uh, the shekinah glory
There was a point where ezekiel is actually watching the shekinah glory leave because the people had committed themselves to their path of sin
So horrendously like god, I believe is forgiving and is going to work with us
And isn't just going to cast us out because we messed up or had an error
I mean if we are truly in us in a heart of repentance and wanting to come to him
I believe he's going to work with us and show mercy and he's going to keep us right
Yeah, some of that I agree with but that doesn't really answer the question of if you are a son of god
When do you cease being a son of god any longer?
When you would reject your inheritance, I would say probably the prodigal son would be a good example like the prodigal son wasn't okay
But if you use the prodigal son as an example
That's a son that did not did the prodigal son cease from being a son
Of the father that he was a prodigal to
Yeah, he always the son in in an inheritance sense. Yes
In a in a creation sense. No
Which which is exactly why I draw to that original point where you're talking about these hard line equivocations of like wow
You're born. You can't be unborn. Well, then i'll just use the same argument
I'll just use a hard line equivocation with the prodigal son and i'll talk about how yeah, he was born
He was born into this family. He rejected his inheritance
Right, but you believe that a son of god could quote lose their salvation or lose their inheritance
That's your claim that or they were never saved and I will concede the possibility of false converts
I'm, not actually fighting that I believe that is that is possibly what some of these verses could be talking about
In terms of your perspective of this like do you believe?
That if this story had been told differently to support osas doctrine
It would have been reasonable to think that had the son never repented
That the father would have gone out and grabbed him and dragged him back home and forced him to be there with him
Even if he hadn't chosen of his own volition to go back
No, I don't think that he would have
So do you think it would be intrinsic to maybe take from this story that there might be like a call of like
Repentance for the sake of inheritance. I would say so you can lose rewards with with god
So the bible says that you could have your works be burnt up
But you yourself are saved so as yet by fire and so it
Just the fact that he left and he was a prodigal doesn't mean that he was no longer his son which we agree on
But no son of god is going to go to hell. That's just not going to happen
It's just not biblical and so you may lose some of your inheritance for sure
But when it comes time to die
The bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord and the bible even says that nothing can separate
Us from his love the bible says in psalm 89 that if we turn on him his covenant
He cannot break the lord literally made a covenant with us that he cannot break
And even if we were to go out and try to sin and break the covenant the bible says for whom the lord loveth
He chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth
So I have no doubt that yes, you could lose rewards, but you're not going to lose your salvation
So and in this case of the prodigal son where he did come back
He'd already you would agree he'd already spent his inheritance. So when he chose to repent and come back home
He was entering he got his salvation
Um, he certainly his father welcomed him back, but you don't think he was given a second inheritance, right?
Like he was all of a sudden rewarded for all this time. He went out. Is that kind of how you would look at that?
Well, I don't I I don't know exactly
like how it would parallel to salvation like
How this conversation about the prodigal son would literally apply to salvation instead of looking at just parables
Why don't we look at actual examples in the bible?
Like what do you do with situations like samson then because obviously samson literally? Oh, beautiful. Yeah, I was gonna say that for later
Yeah, um, he didn't commit suicide any more than christ did there's no greater love than
Then for someone to lay down their life for their friends
Uh, samson pulled that entire city down on top of the people killed all of the philistines probably saved
God knows how many souls and a bunch of uh problems that they would have caused, you know
Because again keep in mind this is where all the kings all of the kings of all these lands were all here for this event
At this time because samson had been brought in samson doing this
Saved god knows how many lives by laying down his life
I mean, I don't know how you don't see this as a typology of christ of him deciding in his last moments
Well, there's nothing left and he's ready to die to give everything he can to try and offer up himself
In this last moment of faith to let me take down your enemies lord god and he empowers him with his spirit to do that
I understand. I understand the point you're trying to make but here's the thing christ died to give life and
He died for his enemies
Samson took you don't think he gave life to the enemies
If he took hold on one second, he took the life of his enemies. That's not giving them life
That's literally harming them to a point of death. He even harmed his own body. He committed suicide and jesus didn't commit suicide
He laid down his own life and they crucified him. So that's not a correct analogy. So then did joshua and saul commit murder
What do you mean well, I mean like I mean, you know god gave his spirit to to uh,
Samson to give that last bit of strength to so god sanctioned what was done, you know, he wanted this to be done
How many lives were saved by samson killing all these evil evil kenanite kings?
Why is there evil in any way? The bible doesn't say anything about lives being saved
You're just reading that in between the text. The bible doesn't say anything about you
Don't think that lives were saved by these kings being wiped out
You don't think jews were saved by this you could assume that but the bible doesn't directly say that so the bible doesn't
So the philistines that were that were over the jews, okay
Hold on, dude
This philistines that were over the jews that they're whining about that are being uh oppressed in this whole narrative and you're like well
They wouldn't have necessarily been hurt by the philistines if samson didn't do this. Are you kidding me?
Well, I have no doubt that they that they could have been hurt by them
And obviously there were times where they were at war with the philistines
but just the fact you can't read in between the text and just conclude that oh, it was some great act of god when
I literally died. So let me ask you something. So let me ask you something. So let's say oh
I'm gonna have to use an antidote. Well, don't we have to don't we have to like do 10 questions like I have to
Sorry, I apologize. Yep. You're right. I apologize. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah. So what what minute mark are we at sft?
You've got two minutes and 30 seconds
Right, so the bible says being confident of this very thing that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it
Until the day of jesus christ, so samson obviously he died and he went to be with the lord. We differ on that
I think you believe he went to be with the lord, but I don't see suicide
I don't see suicide as some great act of god, you know, he took a bunch of lives with him
Those are lies that could have been saved. Isn't he in the hall of faith or something?
Did you say that like isn't he counted as like?
He's in the hall of faith because he received the promises the gift of salvation by faith
But he died in his sin. My point is that if you're saying that if somebody dies in sin, they're going to go to hell
Well, what about samsung? What about saul saul literally committed suicide? I don't think the bible says well, wait a minute
I've said
I don't think samson committed sin. Samson's life was over. He was about to be killed
He took what was the it, you know, are you familiar with a moral dilemma?
I am
Samson was in a moral dilemma
Okay, he was gonna die
He was gonna die there with absolutely nothing to show for it than him just hanging there
To be the feast of scorn and mockery for all these evil pagans and instead of that moment
He did something I believe I don't see how this is sinful, dude
He he used this last moment where he's going to give his life and say well
Let my life that i'm about to give up. I finally mean something give me this power and god gave him the power to do
It it's not like he just was able to do it
Like so then you're basically saying god was okay with him committing suicide or if this was really suicide then god sanctioned it
I think this is a weird argument. I'm going to jump in here gentlemen. So we got 40 seconds
So what we'll do matt if you want to respond to anything there and then ask one last question
We'll let smokey answer it and then we're going to uh hand it to smokey to start asking some questions. So go ahead
Yeah, all i'm saying is that the reason some of that I can understand where you're coming from
Those are some good arguments
But if you actually look at samson's life the fact that he committed fornication
He had his hair get cut and obviously he lost his power. He was at a powerless state
And so he asked the lord, you know, will you please give me power one last time?
And so obviously yes the lord did give him that power but that doesn't mean that he still wasn't in sin
Of course, he was still in sin. He died in sin. He died suicidal. So we differ on that
I think he died as a sinner
And you would say well, maybe he repented at the last second. So
Sure. Yeah, okay. I'm going to jump in
Let's let's stop it there then and then if there's any questions or anything you want to respond to from there smokey
You can do that in your 10 minute time. We'll hand it to smokey smokey. Uh, you have 10 minutes. Go ahead
I didn't see it was really all that choppy. Actually. I've been understanding it just fine. But yeah, good stuff
Um, yeah
the only reason I brent brought up king saul as a retort because you were trying to use a an old testament passage from like
psalms to try and leverage that and I was saying well if I wanted to play that way
I could talk about how well saul was saved and he had the spirit of god depart from him
So therefore he lost his salvation
But i'm not doing that
Because I don't think that the covenantal promise inside the new covenant of the holy spirit inside us is the same thing that the kings
And prophets had I think they had the spirit on them
Or you know aside with them, but I don't believe they actually had them inside them
The inside thing was something reserved for the tabernacle like the actual shekinah glory the the you know that place
So I don't think there was that stuff happening, but I do believe the spirit was on them
That's why I said I wouldn't use that type of argument because I could do the same thing
Of trying to use saul granted. I think it would be a bad example
But that's what I felt. Maybe you were trying to leverage with those psalms. Was it 98? I think you said
Uh, this is psalm 89, but here's the thing. So you have so you say the spirit wasn't in them
Well, the bible literally says in first peter the spirit which was in them did testify the sufferings of christ beforehand
So the spirit was in the believer so you're wrong on that
So in the prophets, okay. All right
Yeah, so basically the spirit was indwelling them and the bible says it was in them. Okay. Well then i'll accept that
So let's say because I was trying to soft soft touch that truth be told because I talked with a couple people and you know
It's probably not a good argument. They weren't necessarily inside them. So thank you for clarifying that for me. I appreciate it
so if they were
Um and saul had the spirit, uh inside him. He was anointed as king
Uh, certainly would have had favor with god, you know to be in this position and then uh saul at a certain point. Uh, god, uh,
Basically removed his spirit his spirit removed
uh or or took a took away from
Uh saul and then was replaced with it what it says a tormenting spirit something to torment him
So would that not be an old testament sign of someone who started strong?
What had favor with god was doing well and then?
Basically rebelled to the point of being fallen away number one number one
You're adding that to the scripture because the bible never says that there was a spirit that was added to him
That was a tormenting spirit. I'll never says that. Oh, yeah, it does. Oh, yeah, it does
I'll pull it up the bible says the opposite. Sure. The bible says the opposite
It literally says that samuel was raised up and that samuel said to saul tomorrow shall down my sons be with me
and so
Samuel was with the lord to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord
And if you have eternal life if saul had eternal life and he was sealed with the spirit
The bible says you're sealed for the day of redemption
And so yes, I do believe just to answer some of the things you mentioned earlier
Yes, I do believe that we should have good works. I think we should try to endure to the end but not for salvation
Salvation is a one-time thing
You come to jesus you have the bread of life you partake of what he gives you he even said in john 11
25 and 26 to the woman at the well
He says I am the resurrection and the life he that believeth in me though
He were dead yet shall he live and whosoever liveth in believeth in me shall never die everlasting life never die
They're used interchangeably. So you're literally saying that somebody that is saved born of god could lose that gift of it
Well, no, i'm just not i'm just not claiming that this is a definitively absolute singular epoch moment in human history
When we have things like abide in me or you could be severed and stuff like in
But when you partake of the bread of life, that's a one-time event when you drink of the water and you never thirst
That is a one-time event. I think you're mixing up
Well, I don't know about that. I wouldn't agree with that. I wouldn't agree with that because I would he says you'll never thirst again
Yeah, but yeah, right, right and that is again
I am fine with looking at these and this is the thing that I don't share the presupposition
That every time you read a salvific passage, it always means exactly the same thing. It's always referring to this epoch moment
Like I believe it can be talking about a moment that a believer accepts christ
Let me ask another question because we're getting off on this. But first I want to show you first samuel 16 14
Uh says but the spirit of the lord departed from saul and a distressing spirit from the lord troubled him
So there's some sort of he sent some sort of spirit
A distressing spirit. Yeah, not a spirit of the devil or whatever you had mentioned there
I don't know what you said previously. Well a tormenting spirit. I don't know. He's he's being he's being bugged by it
I I didn't I mean some versions say tormenting some say distressing. I I guess I was just fixing
But what do you do with the fact that samuel literally said you're going to be with me
I mean that's definitive proof
You cannot lose your salvation because saul committed suicide and the bible says that he went to be with samuel
So what do you do with that?
Oh wait, okay, so maybe i've misunderstood the samson argument
Did you say samson committed suicide and therefore he is in heaven or isn't in heaven? No, no
No, I said saul committed suicide and so no no, but but I know earlier you were talking about samson
I thought you said samson committed. He's in heaven. Yeah, samson committed suicide. He's in heaven
But saul also did the same. Oh
You know what i'm saying, I see what you're saying
Yeah, so how do you justify that and are you going to say that king?
So what is the verse with saul what saul is in heaven? Wait, what is the verse you're using for that? I'm, sorry
Yeah, it's in first samuel 28. Let me take a look
first samuel 28
I'm, gonna look it up real quick. I yield some time for that
You said verse 19
Yeah verse 19
I'll pause it as you're looking out loud if you want. Okay, sure. I'm gonna get to it here
Um and saul spake to jonathan his son and to all his servants, uh that they should kill david or no wait
That's 19 1. I'm, sorry. Yeah
It's all good 19. What was it? I'm, sorry first samuel 28 19. Oh, i'm sorry, and I got that messed up 28 19. Apologies
Okay
All right
Got it
Says moreover the lord will also deliver israel with thee into the hand of the philistines and tomorrow
Shout thou and thy sons be with me the lord also shall deliver the host of israel into the hand of the philistines
Okay
Um, what was what was his suicide? He what he asked us someone to kill him or something. What was the deal?
I forget what was the suicide?
Yeah, he asked his armor-bearer
He asked his armor-bearer to kill him
But his armor-bearer wouldn't and so saul actually just fell on his own sword and committed suicide
Well, you know and I I might again this is another one of these situations where I feel like you might be leveraging a moral dilemma
Saul was injured. He was
dying
He wanted his his armor-bearer to kill him armor-bearer wouldn't do it. What was the option?
To bleed out in that particular moment and pain and agony or is it necessarily really?
A moral offense knowing you're going to die to end it quicker. I mean I got I mean, I don't know where your stance is
The lord departed from him
Yeah, so the bible says that the lord departed from him for one he went right assaulted with a witch
He did all of the worst things you could possibly do to write your salvation
And so if that's the case and he didn't well then by definition no one can lose it
The well, but the lord what couldn't have stayed stayed departed from him if the lord's delivering this message him, right?
Like i'm saying yes, we have the passage to unsaved people all the time
The lord speaks to unsaved people all the time, but not as like not like profit wise not profit wise though
I mean not like hey, he's like giving this message to him like clearly the spirit of the lord or
You know at least the essence of the lord something must be there to inform him of this
Like and it does say that the spirit departed him and then a I don't know distressing bothering bug
Some spirit was sent to him and now all of a sudden we have another passage
Where the lord is speaking to him and I don't know how that would be the case without the holy spirit there
So clearly something had changed
And I don't know what that is. Necessarily. I probably have to go back and read this passage, but that's where my take on it
um would be uh
I guess I shouldn't can I move on to another question?
I was gonna jump in there. Okay, if you
Uh, if you want to ask one last question one more a few seconds less on that. Yes
Okay, ask ask a question let matt respond and then we'll uh, we'll change. Okay. Um, could it be in two parts?
Sure. Yeah, no problem. All right. Um
First part is oneness doctrine a damnable heresy
You're coming in and out a lot I think you asked is them. Oh i'm sorry on this doctrine
Yeah, is is like oneness like arianism. Yeah, it's like oneness pentecostalism. Is that a damnable heresy?
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay good. Okay. We agree on that. Amen to that. Okay, beautiful now, um, what if
Someone believed in that after osas trinitarianism
Have they lost their salvation or would you say they're never saved you could say that the person was never saved
You could say that because the bible says that they went out from us that it might be shown that they were never of us
But there's also people that just get confused on doctrine
And so either way you either have somebody that just gets confused on doctrine deceived of the devil just like eve
And from the simplicity in christ or you could have somebody that literally
just
Got screwed up as far as um, and they were never saved as far as doctrine goes
I'd like to dig deeper in that but i'm going to wait till my next turn so i'll yield awesome. Awesome
Yeah, I was just going to jump in there. So I appreciate that
Those were a couple of uh, really engaging back and forth a lot of great questions and points
so now we're going to hand it back to matt for his 10 minutes to
Uh kind of lead the way in in the discussion, uh, so go ahead matt
Yeah, i'm so disgusted with these with these debates by the way with the osas stuff i'm trying so hard to I love you
Matt, I really do man. You're awesome
You too, man, you too
Yeah, so here's the thing, you know, jesus said that unless you do the father's will
You will not inherit the kingdom of heaven
But jesus said this is the will of him that sent me that everyone which seeth the son
And believeth on him may have everlasting life and he says and I will raise him up again at the last day
And then he also says and this is the father's will that all he had given to me. I should lose nothing
But should raise it up again at the last day
So jesus literally said that once you're saved in john 6 that he's not going to lose you
He's not going to lose any of his sheep. He would leave the 99 just to go get you and so
Uh, just the fact that people think that that they could lose their salvation or give the gift back. I'm, sorry
You've been washed with the washing of regeneration with the blood of the lord. Jesus christ
How can you undo what the cross has already done for you? That's what i'd like to know and so
uh
Sft. Did you say I have 10 minutes to just go all out?
Or is this? Oh, no, no, no
It's just another round of 10 minutes where we want you guys to have a free-flowing dialogue
This 10 minutes is still free-flowing dialogue, but it's 10 minutes where now you get to lead the discussion
Then we're going to do the same with smoky and that'll be 40 minutes and then we'll move to closing statements matt
So if you want to make another couple points and then ask smoky a question, we'll be good. Go ahead
Sounds good. So a couple things obviously we've been born the bible says in first peter 123
That we've been born again
Not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible seed by the word of god which liteth and abideth
Forever the word of god lives and abides forever
And just as the word of god is eternal our salvation is eternal and if we have been born again of incorruptible seed
That seed cannot be corrupted and so no matter what point smoky might make to say
Well, you could be delivered unto satan. Yeah big deal that happened all the time the new testament
In fact, somebody was delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit would be saved in the day of judgment
So people that believe in work salvation, they just completely leave that out
The bible says being confident of this very thing that he which hath begun a good work and you will perform it not might not maybe
But will perform it unto the day of jesus christ. You cannot lose your salvation
Like I said earlier cain and able, you know
You have cain bringing forth the fruits of the ground you have able bringing a substitute and once that substitute was there
It was done. It was a done deal. The salvation was purchased. Jesus said on the cross
It is finished and so my salvation was paid for at the cross and it was eternal redemption
Take your time. Sounds good. Sounds good
So in ephesians chapter 1 verse 13
It says in whom also you trusted after that you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation
In whom also after that you believed you were sealed with that. Holy spirit of promise. The bible says in titus 1 2
This is the promise that god has promised us even eternal life
So it's a promise of god that we have eternal life that we possess it
In the present and in the ephesians 4 30, it says grieve not the holy spirit of god
Whereby ye are sealed into the day of redemption. So smoky my question for you is
If we can grieve the spirit of god
And we are still sealed. How can you become unsealed when the bible says that god's spirit has sealed us
And you also mentioned earlier that you know, well, what about our free will?
Here's the thing once you've been saved. Jesus says you're in the father's hand
The bible says all that the father giveth to me shall come to me and him that cometh to me
I will in no wise cast out and the bible says
that uh
Let me see here. It says and I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out
Of my hand so you are a man smoky
And so how can you justify getting plucked out of his hand or even having the seal broken?
It just doesn't make sense to me. But what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, there's more conflations there again, you know the and and it's the two things of of frame of reference point of a
God's frame of reference when he looks down on the uh saved soul
Sees their entire life from beginning to end hiccups bumps roads failures successes all of it all together
And its summation is salvation
Its summation is acceptance belief abiding in christ running the good, you know running the good race
You know not falling behind lest you be disqualified for the prize type thing
This is what is going on
so I look at it as the idea of two frame of reference one from gods that we don't have access to we could be looking at a
Matt dillahunty and be like, ah completely, you know, damn to hell certainly in his current state and yet somehow
Maybe there's a ray of hope for him at the end. You know, we don't know
You know and and see here's the thing let me let me just put this out there matt
No, this will be my final response. I'll let you respond to it
Um, I don't believe in calvinism and I don't believe in irresistible grace
So while I do believe the gift is free, it's open to anyone. It's open to anyone whoever receives it
And just like any gift you can reject it and I don't think just because you said yes to it at some point
You all of a sudden lose
The free will to choose to reject it later
Yeah, but that doesn't answer my question
If god says you're in my hand and i'm in the father's hand and no man shall pluck you from his hand and you're not
Salvific in totality not answering that's not an no it is
That is the frame of reference in its totality of god looking at the total saved soul
Of their summation of their life that they were saved they were chosen from the beginning
They were written in the book of life before the foundations of the world. They are there he sees them those people
Will never be plucked out of his hand
That's very simple. It's his frame of reference point that he's drawing the reference of salvation from not ours
There's two different frame of reference points. You're either talking about salvation as a whole
the christian life
Or us the way the only way that we can view it and we may be viewing a false convert is when we see
Someone accept the lord and then if we see them divert or fall away or fall into sin
Well, we don't sit there and say well you're good. We say no. No, there's there's a sign of something wrong here
Maybe you were never saved. You need to repent. That's the healthy thing to do
Well, you talk about a reference point
I mean you think about the fact that we are seated in heavenly places with christ. That means we know him
He knows us and are we currently seated in heavily places with christ?
The bible says that our spirit is the bible says we are seated in heavenly places with the lord
Jesus christ and so you take that as a true both ways. Wait, you take that as a true literal present tense
For the spirit not for the flesh. We wait for the redemption of our body
But our spirit is seated in heavenly places with him obviously our soul. Yeah, we see through so the soul isn't inside us
No, the spirit is inside of us
I'm, not saying that the spirit's not inside of us
But what I am saying is we've been born of god and therefore we are not going to be blotted out of the book of life
All right. Well, what makes us born of god?
Tell me about this. I'm, sorry. I i'm not supposed to be asking the questions on my i'm, sorry. I retract apologies. Go ahead
Yeah, I think it's just free-flowing. So it doesn't matter to me, but no
what I find interesting is
It doesn't seem that you're really actually answering my question about seal today of redemption other than oh, well, it's just from god's perspective
Well, if it was just from god's perspective, why would it be written down? My answer is simple. I mean, this is literally for us
Matt my answer is that we are sealed to the day of redemption
It's to me again, but i'm not a calvinist. I don't believe in some sort of one-way covenant or promise
But I never mentioned I never mentioned calvinism. This has no you do you do you believe in irresistible grace?
You believe once someone accepts christ, they now have irresistible grace
They can never choose anything different even if they're even if let's say they ignore scripture
And then they go off on some crazy path and then they're like, oh I hate god
God is a moral monster on account of old testament stuff happening. They they come to this conclusion
To hate god and reject him
If so, how can you say obviously?
What if this or wait a minute that they were not of us?
All right, you're just coming at me smokey. You're just coming at me with all these
Uh man-made arguments when i'm just saying this is what's man-made
These are real world situations that we do that went out from us that it might be shown that they were not of us
And so that's what the bible says. And so yeah
Let me move this to the critical level then since we're just gonna get into it at this point if false converts exist
Oh sass is worthless
Because what you're doing is you're telling people that may or may not be true converts that they definitively can't do anything
To lose their salvation and so what you're doing you could be looking at someone who seems to be true
Like like think of like a young dillahunty someone who seems to be in the faith
They love the lord
They're going around doing the stuff they're supposed to and I don't agree
With your interpretation of that warning in first timothy about coming coming under the condemnation of the devil as if the devil themselves
Is somehow condemning them that sounds like they're coming into the same condemnation as the devil comes in first crinthians
But that's first crinthians. Sorry policy. Apologies. Yes, the first yeah, apologies
33 13 5 apologies. Yes. I remember that. Um, that's what i'm talking about
Um, I I this this idea of this doctrine where you could have someone in your assembly who's gonna in the future
Be a oneness heretic trying to lead people down to the pit of hell
Why you would you I think you would imagine with damnable doctrines?
Would you would you look at that person and you would have said to that person at some point? Hey, bro
You're good. There's nothing you can do to ever lose your salvation. You're locked in
I promise you and that person ends up going on
The apostles did the same thing with judas mochi look at judas judas people say judas lost his salvation
They never expected judas to be a devil but right at the beginning of jesus's ministry
Jesus literally turned to judas and said in john 6 70 have not I chosen you 12 and one of you is
Judas didn't have the holy spirit
Judas did not have the holy spirit
He wasn't doing wonders and miracles with the power of the holy spirit with the rest of the disciples
Well matthew seven many will say to me in that day lord lord
Have we not prophesied my name and in thy name of cast out devils and thy name done many wonderful works
Why aren't you letting us in of course people have been lost and used, uh spiritual powers that happens
But all my point is is that john 6 70 says and jesus told judas one of you is a devil
Have not I chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil
So the apostles when they were sitting around the table and jesus asked or they were trying to figure out who was the betrayer
They judas was their last choice. They didn't know that judas was unsaved
So I don't I don't want to think of myself as better than the disciples
To just include oh somebody was saved and lost it. That's just a false doctrine
That's easily refuted by the fact that jesus said have not I chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil at the beginning
of his ministry
So if judas was unsaved
But he was doing the works and signs and wonders of the empowerment by the holy spirit
Like you don't think that christ
Was just making a statement based upon his foreknowledge rather than what was happening at that moment
Like I mean it had nothing to do with foreknowledge
You'd have to call god a liar because he said you are present tense a devil. That's what he told judas present
Will be a devil or you will lose yourself very literal with those tenses look at this christ was slain before the foundation of the world
So here's here's the thing smokey
Get this jesus didn't tell judas have not I chosen you 12 and one of you is going to lose your salvation
That's not what he said. He said have not I chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil present tense
Well, that wouldn't make sense to say that
I don't think from the point of the narrative like like to say like well
This is what it should have said if it was losing salvation it wasn't about salvation
Smokey you're saying that people can lose their salvation, but that wasn't about
Yeah, it absolutely was about salvation. I mean salvation might have been included in it, but salvation might have been included in it
But that statement wasn't about salvation
Like that statement was about what he ultimately was based on what he was going to do like he hadn't done it yet
He hadn't done it yet. So christ was was
Smokey what he said that he is present tense a devil
So this script I know really defeated like christ was slain before the foundations of the world
So christ was literally slain before the foundations of the world metaphor. That was a metaphor that yeah
You look at this like so hyper rigidly and there's instances where you can't do that
I'm saying you shouldn't do that in this instance is what i'm saying
I'm gonna jump in here on this
And gentlemen great back and forth just because we just got a few seconds left on this round
Why don't we get since this was matt's round?
Matt, why don't you have the last word on that one? We'll hand it to smokey smokey
You'll have a a final 10 minutes to just kind of lead the way. Okay. Yeah, sure
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Okay, matt have the last word and then we'll hand it to smokey to lead the way go ahead
Sure thing. So just to wrap this up my opponent's argument is that there are people out there
That they're among us and how can you conclude that they weren't saved and lost their salvation?
Well, people could have concluded that about judas. Look at the fact that jesus said he is a devil present
At the beginning of the ministry, so that verse just completely debunked literally the entire argument just in one verse
That he just said and so jesus said judas is a devil
He was never saved people that think that judas got saved and lost it. That's his that's as crazy as islam
That's what people like like muslims believe. That's what I hear from mormons. Jehovah's the holy spirit resided with the devil
I hear this from all sorts of unsaved people and so it's no new argument
Judas died. He committed suicide. He was never saved. They went out from us that it might be shown that they were never of us
That's what the bible says and that is clear
Teaching that refutes what you just said smokey. You just said the holy spirit
Yeah, dude, you know what you just said the holy spirit indwelt the devil basically
I mean, I would I would be I would be so uncomfortable with that level of like blasphemy to be completely honest
Explain that okay. Think about it. You said is a devil so like he was always a devil
He was always an unsaved person and the holy spirit was indwelling him empowering him to do miracles and wonders and ministry
Where does the bible say that the holy spirit indwelled him where when god sent out the disciples when jesus sent out the disciples?
He told him to go do all those works raise people from the dead preach the word when he gave him the instructions
Where's the indwelling? You said they indwelled at judas. Where's the indwelling?
I you so so using the work of the holy spirit
You're you're not indwelt by the holy spirit explain that one to me biblically. Can we can we move on to another portion?
Uh, let's go over the first corinthians guy. I wanted to talk about him the guy that was caught in adultery doing the you know unspoken
Bad stuff I I feel like I feel like that was a little bit of a rough shot on some of the text
Interpretation layout like I think it says and you know, I probably need to pull it up standing
Can you freeze my clock while I pull it up a second?
Definitely. Yep. Okay first corinthians five
And just to let you guys know i've got it, uh paused at seven minutes and 40 seconds. Okay, beautiful. Give me a sec. I'm, sorry
I
Wrote to you in an epistle not to accompany with fornicators. Are you looking this? Oh, yeah. No, i'm here. I'm here
Yeah, you can start the clock again. I'm sorry standing. Okay
This is verse nine of chapter five and first corinthians says I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world or with the covetous or extortioners or with idolaters
For then must ye needs go out of the world
But now I have written unto you to not keep company if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator or covetous
Or an idolater or a railer or a drunkard or an extortioner?
Such uh not to even eat with one for what have I to do?
To judge them also are without um, I guess that's not actually the portion we were looking at where they're excommunicating him
Um judged already through the present concerning that he hath done this deed in the name of our lord
Jesus christ when you are gathered together in my spirit with the power of the lord
Jesus christ delivers such on one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may
Be saved in the day of our lord. Jesus christ see and this to me is not a definitive
This is not a definitive absolute and in fact as we read later on in another portion of the story eventually he comes back
He's reconciled to the church and they're rejoicing in that in the sense that his soul has been saved in that particular moment
So the way I look at this is the idea he shouldn't be among the assembly of the believers because he is inside
This sin this perversion that cannot possibly be named among someone of a saved soul who is calling this license to be okay
And so they say well deliver him up deliver him up to satan for the destruction of his flesh so that spirit may
Be saved in the day of lord. Jesus and I do believe that is a potential conditional i'll yield with that
If you want to respond
Well, basically you're saying that the spirit may be saved so you're you're putting
Extra emphasis on that word. Well fine. Look at king. David king. David literally committed adultery king. David
Murdered somebody just to be able to commit adultery yet. He still went to heaven the bible literally says restore unto me
The joy of thy salvation don't give my salvation back. He already had a salvation
He said please give me the joy of my salvation restore to me the joy of my salvation
so
You know, we can lose fellowship with god. The bible says that if we
Say that we love him yet hate our brother. We're dwelling in darkness
And so we can lose that fellowship
But it doesn't change the fact that if his children forsake my law and walk not in my judgments
If they break my statutes and keep not my commandments
Then will I visit their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes?
Nevertheless my loving kindness will not utterly take from them nor suffer my faithfulness to fail
My covenant will I not break nor alter the thing that has gone out of my lips. So there's the answer
Um, matthew
six, I think I brought up, um
Christ says, uh, if you do not forgive men their trespasses, I will not forgive you
Do you believe someone can be saved without their sins being forgiven?
Well, obviously their sins have to be forgiven to be saved
So so the so if we are believing in christ you would agree with me
We are looking into this book for instructions if we believe in christ
There's no reason to look into it. Otherwise, unless we're a dumb god hater and we're trying to mock it
There's no reason to be looking into this book for clear instructions to application to our life unless we already believe
and amongst this is the the command to say hey
I'm, not gonna forgive you your sins unless
You forgive the sins of fellow man now, I take that very seriously
I take that very seriously
So so can I address that real quick? Sure. Go ahead
So basically when jesus said if you don't forgive men their trespasses, i'm not going to forgive you your trespasses
That's obviously talking about an earthly sense if you don't forgive your brother for trespassing or doing something wrong against you
You do something wrong against the lord on this earth. He's not going to forgive you of that trespass
And so that's obviously applying to
Physical salvation not spiritual salvation spiritual salvation was already dealt with at the cross
It's the fact that if you don't forgive your brother
The lord's not going to forgive you for things that you screw up on and then you come begging forgiveness
He's not going to allow that to be made right on this earth
so what
Wow, I wasn't expecting that answer. Um
So so you're saying this is so this is two different kinds of
forgiveness of sins one in a correct in a physical sense and one in a
Spiritual i'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah, let me explain. Let me clarify this for me. I I was I was really not expecting this answer
I'm, sorry. Yeah, so like if I was too sin against my actual physical dad
And I have a problem. Let's say I have a problem with one of my brothers
And i'm not going to forgive one of my brothers for trespassing against me my dad
Rightfully and rightfully so probably wouldn't forgive me until I forgive my brother. And so in the same way god is not going to forgive
His children who won't forgive others the bible says you reap what you sow that's talking about in a physical sense when you're on this earth
You're going to reap what you sow and if you don't forgive your brother the lord's not going to forgive you on this earth
well
You know, I don't I don't see any reason, uh, maybe i'm missing something from some sort of exegesis from this text
But what it looks like is you're just presupposing
osas into this text
Because because I look at it and it very clearly says your sins won't be forgiven now
We can't possibly
The whole thing of salvation is our sins being
Forgiven if our sins aren't forgiven we are judged we are under the wrath of god. That's just what the gospel is about
So when god when jesus is saying hey
If you don't forgive your brothers and sisters their sins
If you don't forgive your fellow man
And I believe it's actually not even just your brothers and sisters in the faith
I believe it actually is like all-inclusive like your whole fellow man. If you don't believe that, you know, forgive your fellow man
For their sins against you neither will my heavenly father forgive you your sins
I mean that is like to me a very clear. Uh,
It does say sins it says
It says trespasses if you've trespassed against someone that means you've wronged them personally
And so if god has a personal issue with you and you've trespassed against them and you don't make right the trespass against your brother
The lord's not going to make it right with you look at david look at abraham
Look at all the examples in the bible the bible even says just lot next to his righteous hole with the sins of sodom
How is it right with a lot? Wait a minute matt? How is a trespass against god not a sin?
It is a sin but in the sense of doing god something personally wrong on this earth if that makes sense
Does that make sense?
No
But I appreciate you trying so well, here's the thing
Yeah, I well, I thought I explained it pretty clear that you know, if you trespass well, I hope the audience got it
I maybe I think it's pretty understandable in my head. Okay. All right. That's right. Okay
Let's maybe move on a little bit. That was interesting. So, uh, okay. We already did the samson thing
I'm, just gonna jump in gentlemen. Sure. We've got are we done? Are we there? No, no
We've got well just over a minute on the clock if you want to make one last point smoky and sure
You guys can engage and then we'll move on
Standing yeah, I appreciate I guess i'll finish with how I finished with my opening. Maybe we can unpack that for a minute
Um, it's hebrews 312, uh, and I know typically hebrews 6 they like to go at that hebrews 6
I'm still even a little torn on it matt truth be told i'm still looking into it
I almost kind of think personally just to share with you. I listened to steven anderson's take
About how it could have been like a reprobation or someone who wasn't actually saved
They were sitting on the fence and then delivered to reprobation. I don't actually necessarily disagree with that interpretation
Take heed brethren and just to carry for context. I do believe this is talking about christian brethren. Not just of the
Uh brethren of the hebrew bloodline, I believe if you look earlier in the chapter
I believe it concretes that um, it is talking about the brethren who are partakers of the promise
Um, it says take heed brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief
This sounds like self-examination
uh continuing
Uh in departing from the living god
But exhort one another daily while it is called today
Lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin
For we are made partakers of christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence
Steadfast unto the end this seems to be a practical
ongoing command of continual abiding with christ
Which I believe would also be echoed in john 15 i'll go and yield feel free to respond
Yeah, so the bible says that we are partakers of christ if we endure to the end
Well, here's the thing we are supposed to partake of his sufferings the bible says that we are to look at jesus
The author and finisher of our faith and so those are things we should do. Those are things that don't necessarily
Negate salvation if we don't do them, but those are things that we should do. We should partake of christ sufferings
What is the martyr's crown all about?
so
That would be my answer is that that is specifically talking about those who endure to the end and gain the reward
The prize the crown the martyr's crown in this case
So let me jump forward not an inheritance
Okay, perfect. I appreciate that answer and since we've got just a few seconds left. This was your round smoky
So you have the last word here and then we'll jump into some closing statements
Uh, you know, I think i'll just save it for the closing statements
I think uh, i'll just give appreciation to matt for the answer for the time standing for you and your diligence and patience
With the internet and all that. Um, we actually unpacked a lot. Um, i'm really surprised actually in the amount of time matt
Thank you. Uh, we unpacked quite a bit and looked at quite a few things. Um, i'm happy with the exchange
Uh, so i'll just yield to our final statements, I think and then we'll get our question and answer going. Yeah
Amen. Amen
It's been a great debate even with some some uh technical difficulties here and there
Incredibly engaging debate so many good topics and points you guys discussed
Uh, great chat. We've had over a hundred at at one point during the debate people saying, you know right here
This is probably one of the best discussions they've seen on any youtube channel
So you guys did a great job very engaging. I want to thank the both of you
And uh that discussion portion i'm exhausted and don't want to talk about this for at least a week
After shows are cancelled
Go easy on me
Okay, uh gentlemen, uh, let's go into the closing statements, uh matt you started
So we're going to hand it over to you
For a five minute closing statement whenever you're ready. Go ahead
Sure thing. Thank you smoky. I think it's been a really good debate
Uh in closing I just want to say that you know
Salvation is either eternal or it's not and I believe that when you trust christ the savior
You are given the gift of eternal life jesus said whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die
And so I believe that and I believe that i've been passed from death into life
And one of the points that he didn't address
Is in john 5 24 where jesus said barely barely I see into you
He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me half everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation
So it's a prophecy but it's passed from death onto life
And so those are some pretty powerful words that tell us that once we're saved once we trust christ
That we are sealed to the day of redemption and we cannot lose our salvation and we're not just sealed from god's perspective
Like smoky was trying to say we are sealed from also man's perspective as well as god's perspective
Otherwise, why would he write it down in the book in the bible and tell us that we're sealed to the day of redemption?
You know, it wouldn't make sense viewing it any other way than as it is written
You know when jesus dealt with satan he would always say it is written it is written
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of god
So if we're supposed to live by every word, we need to take every word into context
And so things like enduring to the end. I think those are good things to do
But it doesn't it doesn't change our relationship to the father through the son
You know, once you trusted christ, you're born into his family and it's not just a metaphor
The bible says that we've been washed with the washing of regeneration
So when smoky said earlier and you can play it back that oh, there's this regeneration that takes place. Yeah, absolutely
It's the washing of regeneration and renewing of the holy ghost the bible says
And so yeah, saul obviously we talked about that a little bit but smokey didn't really address it
Saul is with the lord right now. The bible says that saul departed and went with samuel when he died
Samuel said tomorrow at this time you're going to be with me
and so
The bible just teaches clearly over and over again that once we're saved we're in the father's hand
and
We're also in christ's hand. He's in the father's hand and no man shall be able to pluck us from the father's hand
So no matter what we cannot lose that gift. They say well, what if I jump out?
Well, it says no man
That would include everybody so no man
Can jump out
Nothing can separate us from the love of god for I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities
Nor powers nor things present
That's even sin that's sinful things nor things to come things that you may do
Shall be able to separate us
Nor death or life nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of god
Which is in christ jesus our lord
And so one of the most hateful things to do is to send somebody to the lake of fire
And if nothing is going to separate us from his love and paul even said I am the chief of sinners present tense
That tells me that the chief of sinners could be justified before god the chief of sinners
Could die and go to heaven people all throughout the bible died in their sins and yet are still in heaven
I mean you look at the hall of faith time after time after time and so, you know people want to play word games
Atheists like to do that too. They like to focus on certain words and play word games
But here's the thing the guy that was caught in adultery with his father's wife
The bible says his spirit may be saved in the day of judgment. It's point blank very clear
You can't just say well may so maybe no it says that they may be saved in the day of judgment
That is implying that he was saved
And that his works were burnt up, but he was saved so as yet by fire
And so I believe that my opponent's position is basically defenseless and I wish I could have answered more
Uh the reception was terrible tonight, but I I do believe it was a respectful debate
It was certainly a fun debate for me. I think it was a fun debate for smoky and I definitely enjoyed it
I like debating people that uh are more knowledgeable on these topics so that we can address all of the main points that are
more mainstream and more
used
More often instead of just yelling and screaming like raging atheist. And so I know smoky and I have had
Interactions with the raging atheist and so, uh, it's uh sfc. How much time do I have left like 30 seconds?
You got it. You got 30 seconds. Okay, so i'm going to end with this
That jesus said or the bible says that we've been born of incorruptible seed
By the word of god which liveth and abideth forever
We've been born of incorruptible seed if it were possible for that seed to be corrupted
Then that scripture would not be true if it were possible for us to go to hell after we're saved
When jesus said I never knew you he would have to say I don't know you anymore
But he literally tells those who are damned on judgment day. I never knew you and to anybody that doesn't trust christ
That is what he will declare to them someday is that he never knew them not he used to know them
But I never knew you. Thanks smoky. Thanks sft
I appreciate it. I appreciate it just on time. Thank you for the closing statement matt
Uh, now we're going to hand it over to you smoky smoky the floor is yours. You got a five minute closing statement
Well, appreciate it great exchange a good time
I feel actually satisfied getting quite a few points out that I kind of wanted to get out and some answers
I was actually even some of them kind of surprised at um, I was I suppose a little bit, uh,
disappointed with the amount of old testament
Examples trying to be leveraged into uh, this particular argument as as anecdotes
I mean, this is a different covenant while granted both are saved by faith the other side, you know
Certainly had a different methodology of practitioners the evidence therein
But still nonetheless were called upon even though to and i'm going to go ahead and use
Matt powell's old testament examples to carry this forward
Is that these people's examples and expression of faith was uh covered by works. This is in james two
The question is asked and proposed in a rhetorical fashion in this passage to say do you really think that your?
Dead faith can save you, you know, this is a challenge to the believer to consider and examine
Themselves of whether or not they are actually believing the thing they claim to believe after all
If osas is true
I think probably the best recommendation for street evangelism from now on is to go ahead and head out there
Teach people osas doctrine ask them to say a little prayer and then teach them every other doctrine
Other the sun and tell them they can absorb them all and hey, you know mine as well
Don't risk possibly losing out because if osas is true and we believe it is well
There's nothing you can do or believe or change or reject in order to lose your salvation
So let's begin with osas
Let's get you locked in and then you could just go off and believe and do whatever the you want
I don't think this is biblical
I think this is the type of thing that osas can ultimately lead people to accept and indulge and also I think it breeds
complacency to ignore the passages to seek after your salvation with fear and trembling and to examine yourselves so that you know that you
Are in the faith these are real instructions and I don't think they are reserved
Simply for loss of rewards or lack of rewards. I do not believe that I want to wager trying to get into the kingdom of heaven
believing in damnable doctrines
teachings of antichrist or any other blasphemous heresy that might have been warned against in scripture or
Failing to regard the warnings of christ that he will not forgive my sins unless I forgive my fellow man
Well, you know what?
I'm going to forgive my fellow man, and i'm not going to risk that well god's just not going to forgive my earthly sins
The best defenses. Mr
Powell could really level to a lot of what I was saying is claiming in these passages where it's potentially someone being in the faith
And then departing the faith which also was promised with the great apostasy
There are people that in the faith that then depart it you can claim they're false converts
But if that is your only argument to every single one of these passages and these warnings that these people
Are actually false converts. I would actually argue that then osas has now rendered useless
Because what you now could be doing is using this language
To tell false converts who are not ultimately saved who will ultimately rebel from the faith that there's nothing
They can do to lose their salvation
I can't think of a doctrine that could potentially be more dangerous to these people to present the idea to them
That they are definitively saved. They've accepted christ. They are locked in they are regenerated
They are renewed and there's nothing they can ever do to lose their salvation and lull them into a sense of perfect
complacency where they're no longer on guard or worrying about absorbing damnable doctrines or dangerous teachings or
Indulging the flesh failing to walk in the spirit not even regarding walking in the spirit and therefore fulfilling
The lusts of the flesh putting them in danger like hebrews 3 of possibly being cut off
And this is ultimately what it comes down to in these instances
Where osas cannot and osas practitioners cannot tell you who is actually saved who is a false convert or not?
Renders this doctrine completely worthless
Because you could be preaching it to someone who is not yet actually saved or is never even gonna be saved
Giving them a bunch of false sense of security in their salvation
Which isn't actually biblical
Nor is it real and with that I will yield remainder of my time and thank you to everyone. This was a blast
Oh, uh final thing, uh, all of this, uh brought to you in part by epicgamermoment.com. Yes, you're welcome
All righty. Well, I uh
I appreciate it. I appreciate the closing statements from the both of you. This was definitely a debate to remember
So
The first thing that people need to understand
About the gospel is that it's simple. It's easy
The bible says but I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled leave through his subtlety
So your mind should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in christ
So the bible clearly tells us that there's simplicity in the lord jesus christ and that there's simplicity in salvation
So
Salvation is not a complicated thing
No matter what any internet teacher might say no matter what any person might preach out there
The bible says that the gospel is simple that it's easy
The bible simply even says just believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved
And so the first thing that people need to understand before being able to be saved is that they're not saved
And that they are condemned if they have not believed on the name of the son of god the bible says for all have sinned
And come short of the glory of god
And so obviously all of us are sinners. None of us are exempt from that and the bible does say
That sin is the transgression of the law
So when we break god's law we sin
And the bible says that there's a penalty for sin. The bible says that the wages of sin is death
And so because we're sinners one day we're gonna have to die
Now you only have to do one sin to be a sinner and the bible says
That all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death
Now I know that everybody's lied before i've lied before
You know, and if you say that you haven't lied before you're lying right now. You're lying to yourself
and so everybody's committed sin
And we've all done stuff worse than lying so according to god's word we would deserve hell the bible says
But the fearful and the unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers
And idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone
Which is the second death
And so that's what we deserve for our sin is the second death
And without christ the bible says that we will go there we will have to pay for our own sins
And endure the second death which goes on forever and ever
but the bible says that
God commended his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners
Christ died for us. And so even though we were sinners, even though we didn't deserve the gift
of salvation and the opportunity to go to heaven
Jesus christ took our place as a substitute
The bible says that he was god manifest in the flesh
And so jesus was basically god with skin on
And the bible says that he did not commit any sin
The bible says he was tempted at all points like as we are yet without sin
So jesus was fully god and fully man and jesus
went about doing many miracles
and
Jesus would always tell the truth and sometimes whenever you tell people the truth they get really offended
And they got so offended at the words of christ that they took and nailed him to the cross
And the bible says that while jesus was on the cross it says who his own self bear our sins in his own body on the tree
So literally every sin i've ever done
Every sin you've ever done
It was as if jesus had done it himself, you know, he was being punished in our place for our sins
And so he was the substitute lamb
He was the one who came and took our sins upon his own shoulders on that cross
And bear them in his own body as the bible says
the bible even says that
Christ died for us and so jesus took our place. He took my place. He took your place
And salvation is actually as simple as that it's as simple as realizing that
You can't save yourself and that you're a sinner and you deserve hell
But jesus christ himself came and took your place took your sins and my sins and bear them in his own body
And wiped away that punishment and was the substitute lamb for us now
Obviously they took jesus's body down and buried it but three days later. He rose again from the dead
And that's the gospel is believing that jesus died for your sins was buried and rose again
The bible even just simply says in acts 16
Believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shall be saved now. It doesn't say thou might be saved
Or thou could be saved or you might you just might make it somehow
No, the bible says that if you believe on the lord jesus christ or you trust him and what he did on that cross
You shall be saved there isn't any
Question about it when you put your trust in christ. He promises to hold on to you
And one of the most important things to understand is that once you're saved you're always saved the bible says in john
524 jesus said
Verily verily I say unto you he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me hath
Everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation
But is passed from death unto life
And so those are some pretty powerful words that tell us that once we trust christ
Once we receive that gift of salvation that we are passed from death unto life
And he also says that you have everlasting life now everlasting by definition goes forever
And so if I had eternal life today
And I lost it tomorrow that didn't last forever
And just as you may have children of your own
Nothing that they could ever do would be able to separate them from being your son or daughter
And it's the same way with god once you're born into his family
There's nothing that you can do to remove those genes the bible says that it's not by works of righteousness, which we have done
But according to his mercy he saved us by the washing of regeneration
And renewing of the holy ghost so when we get saved it's not by our own righteousness
But by the righteousness of christ and by the washing of regeneration
The bible also says that to as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of god
Even to them that believe on his name which were born so you get born again into his family
The moment you receive him as your savior
Even the most famous verse in the entire bible says for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son
So notice how it says he gave his only begotten son. It's a gift
So when god gave jesus as a gift to us as a gift to mankind to salvation
We just simply receive it you don't work for a gift you receive a gift
So if god gave his only son
That tells me and that tells anybody reading the bible that you receive christ as savior
God makes a promise to everybody that trusts in him that he will never leave them
Nor forsake them. He says I will never leave thee
Nor forsake thee that's a promise
You