All right, welcome everybody.
So today we're going to have a debate with Matt Powell and RCA.
So the topic of the debate is Easy Believism versus Lordship Salvation.
So we have Matt Powell and RCA here and pretty much how the discussion slash debate is going
to work out is there's going to be a 15 minute opening for both participants and then practically
an hour or less of discussion through the entire topic and then once at the end of the
hour we get to a five minute closing remarks and then if anybody has any statements or
questions I'll also be writing down statements and questions for both parties and pretty
much that's the description of the debate and if we want to start with RCA with his
side of the story, RCA if you want to go ahead and start you can with your 15 minutes let
me know when you're ready and I can start the timer for you.
All right and go.
All right.
So I would like to thank Hunter for being a moderator for this debate and also likewise
for Matt to accept the challenge and the offer that was offered up on this.
The discussion is going to be on Lordship Salvation versus Easy Believism which of the
two seems to be a more biblical approach towards the subject.
He'll be able to explain Easy Believism but I'm going to be dealing with Lordship Salvation
and explaining the case from my view before we go into the dialogue.
First thing is to clear up the misconceptions because there's misconceptions about what
exactly Lordship Salvation is so I'm going to explain in my own words a summary of Lordship
Salvation.
Lordship Salvation as taught by the Bible is that we are saved by faith alone.
However it is not a faith that is alone.
So that's the thing.
It is a faith that produces fruits or good works.
It does not teach that we can lose our salvation as some people say or as others like Jesse
Morell and such teach that we must therefore be sinless.
That is not what Lordship Salvation is under any circumstances.
So the very first passages in which we are to go over here is actually one that is used
by Easy Believist advocates and that is in Acts chapter 16 where it talks about, it says
then he called for a light and spring and it came trembling and fell down before Paul
and Silas and when he's asking how shall, what must I do to be saved, verse 31 he says
believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved in thy house along with saying
in Romans 10.9 that if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, you shall believe
in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved.
So the emphasis is upon the Lord Jesus Christ.
If Jesus is not the Lord then you are worshipping a different Jesus because Jesus is Lord and
we have to view him as such and confess with him Lord Jesus in order to be saved.
We have to believe in the Lord Jesus to be saved.
So that being said, I want to go over what it exactly means to view him as Lord which
is based on my studies to obey his word.
So Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 through 9, it's the very good phrase where it says that
thou shall, you're saved by grace through faith in Christ but at the same time and I'm
going to use my, the Bible software here and I'm using the King James Version, while
it says by grace you are saved through faith, it is not of works that you are saved.
Notice however what it does say in verse 10, for we are his worksmanship created in Christ
Jesus unto good works.
So we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that
we should walk in them.
So God has appointed a time for us and that is when we're believers to walk in these good
works.
Now then you have Titus chapter 3 verse 14 which I will go to in which it says and let
ours, referring to those of the believers, also learn to maintain good works for necessary
uses that they may not be unfruitful.
So they're saved, they've come to know who Jesus Christ is, they're accepted into the
body of Christ, they are believers in his church but it says let them learn to maintain
the good works for the necessary uses so that they may not be unfruitful which is connected
in my opinion to Matthew 7 which it talks about knowing the false prophets and the true
prophets by their fruits.
So hence where it's talking about this unfruitfulness in Titus 3.14 and that the unfruitful would
be connected to a bad kind of fruit in Matthew 7 which is said to be casted into fire.
Now the next one is Galatians chapter 5 verses 19 through 21 of which a similar parallel
can be seen in 1 Corinthians 6 verses 9 through 10 but for the sake that it mentions the works
of the flesh, it says that the works of the flesh are manifested which are these and it
starts mentioning adultery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, a bunch of sins that I'm not gonna
have too much time to go into but by the time we get to verse 21 it says after listing the
sins of which I tell you before as I told you in time past that they which do such things
shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Now of course I take the passage to not say simply doing the one time you shall not inherit
the kingdom but of a living of a lifestyle of unrepentant sin of these sins, meaning
being a drunkard as in not just simply taking one sip but continuously living in a state
of drunkenness by just living a lifestyle of being a drunkard or an adulterer or an
idolater or a witchcraft practicer or someone who is a serial killer or serial hater I guess.
Any of these who live this lifestyle shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So that's the one thing that we must repent of these lifestyles and more on repentance
later.
1 John chapter 5 verses 1 and 2 is another passage and we're gonna get to the other parts
of 1 John but it says that whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and
everyone that loveth him, that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
By this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and keep his commandments
referring of course to Jesus commandments.
Romans chapter 8 verses 12 through 14, therefore brethren we are debtors not to the flesh to
live after the flesh for if you live after the flesh you shall die referring to living
after the fleshly world but if you through the spirit do mortify the deeds of the body
then you shall live.
John 14, 15 says if you love me keep my commandments.
So we're seeing that it's about keeping the commandments of Christ that regardless of
what do you identify these commandments as, it's still an obedience and that's a submission
to him in his lordship at that point.
So concerning this then we have John chapter 15 verse 2 which I will turn to in my software.
John chapter 15 verse 2 just says every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away
and every branch that beareth fruit he purgeth it that it may bring forth more fruit.
And so then connect this to Matthew 7 19 where it says every tree that bringeth not forth
good fruit is hung down and cast into the fire.
Now we may have time later to go discuss James chapter 2 verses 14 through 24 which I think
makes a pretty good case that it's quite clear of what I'm talking about is that while we
are justified by faith alone, our faith alone being an empty faith cannot save.
It has to be a true saving faith and that's true saving faith is shown by good works which
evidenced by the good deeds not that the deeds save us but that because we are saved we do
good deeds and then the same for 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 1 through 8.
But go into as I was saying we go in 1 John chapter 1 and I'm going to turn there right now
where we'll go over these 1 John chapter 1 verse 6 it says if and note before that it says that
God is light and in him's no darkness at all so therefore it says in verse 6 if we say that we
have fellowship with him with God and walk in darkness walk in iniquity walk in sin which is of
darkness we lie and do not the truth we do not practice the truth we do not live up to the truth
as a result so that's why it says in verse 7 that if we walk in the light as he is in the light then
we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanses us from all sin
and to the next one in chapter 1 note carefully here it says that John writes this so that they
may sin not the believers may sin not but however he does not expect them to be sinless as people
like Jessie Morrell and other sinless perfectionists will try to use this verse 4
because it says and if any man sins we have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ the
righteous so that if you do sin it's not through some priest in the catholic church that you go to
confess to for forgiveness but it is through Christ of whom you ask you can ask for forgiveness
of sins and so that is uh where we get there that the while he the importance is do not sin
he still says hey look you can still be assured that if you do you have Christ as the advocate
you have with the father now in first john chapter 3 verse 6 he says who whosoever abideth in him
sinneth not whosoever sinneth has whoever sins has not seen him neither known him
now the reason i definitely want to highlight this is because if we're going to take this
verse that says whoever sins not who or whoever sent not is simply a sin as in a basic sin
instead of the lifestyle of continuous sin which in my view on how i understand the king
james when they use the word sineth when they have the eth that's them referring to a present
continuous meaning a continuing to sin lifestyle much like believeth is referring to a continuous
believing state and so when it's referring to that that's what we take it but if we're doing
simple one-time sin then that would make everybody um you know uh not know god and of course it would
be a problem in verse eight if it says he that commits sin is of the devil so if we commit sin
one time that means we're of the devil right or is it committing sin in the state of that we
live a lifestyle of sin that makes us of the devil i think that's what we need to keep in
mind and be very careful in how we understand exegete the passages of scripture now i don't
know how matt exactly feels about using the word repentance or even the concept of repentance but
as far as what i believe repentance is important according to the bible because in acts chapter
three verse 19 it says repent ye therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the lord acts chapter 26 verse 20
it shows paul saying that he quote showed first unto them of damascus and at jerusalem
and throughout all the coasts of eudaea and then to the gentiles that they should repent and turn
to god and do works meet for repentance so in other words he's saying that after he had converted
after encountering christ that he showed people first at damascus and then goes all the way it
says even to the gentiles that they should repent and turn to god and do works meet for repentance
then luke chapter 5 verse 32 uh which i will turn to now i realize that i'm going plus uh off of my
notes that i have but i'll also try to make sure i get to using the software so anyone else can see
um i came not to call the righteous but the sinners to repentance this is again in what is noted in
mark then in uh luke i mean yeah that's what i mean luke not mark uh in luke chapter uh 13 in
verses three and five it says i tell you nay but except ye repent you shall all likewise perish
and this is repeated twice from the passage that if except you repent unless you repent you shall
likewise perish so there's an emphasis and an importance of repentance otherwise thou shall
perish and in the great commission in luke chapter 24 notice what it said here in verse uh
47 from jesus and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all
nations beginning at jerusalem so we need to preach repentance which is what lordship salvation
does in what it advocates is the need of repentance and so we're teaching that repentance and
remission of sins should be preached in christ's name among all nations and it began at jerusalem
where this started now acts chapter 17 verse 30 will be the last passage uh that i will go to in
terms of the scripture and then we'll leave probably the other two for a discussion but
in acts chapter 17 verse 30 we read the following and it says and the times of this ignorance god
winked at but now commands all men everywhere to repent to metanoia is to have a change of mind
but when you have a change of mind what is it a change of mind toward it's toward sin that you
have a change of mind towards and when you have this change of mind towards sin as a result you
um put your faith and trust in christ you do not desire sin but even when you mess up and slip up
in sin you desire christ and will ask for forgiveness of your sins but at the same time
doing your best to strive clear from sin i'm not saying it's sinless perfectionism not saying you
can lose your salvation i'm saying that we should desire a sin free life even though we may not
necessarily get it we should strive to not be living in a lifestyle of unrepentant sin and with
that i end my time all right cool matt if uh you want to go your 15 minutes awesome well thank you
so much for having me on hunter uh is this mic a little too loud or is this fine nope you're good
okay awesome well again i want to reiterate my thanks uh to you and rob for having me on the
channel and uh thank you for reaching out rc and offering to do a debate so obviously first off i
want to i want to just state that obviously i believe firmly in the uh easy believism position
i know a lot of people refer to it as easy believism but all throughout the bible jesus
referred to salvation and whenever he'd refer to salvation he referred to uh he referred to it as
one of the most easy things for anybody to obtain and the bible says for by grace are you saved
your faith and effusions 2 8 9 viewer you can pull it up i'm not at my pc at the moment i'm
currently sitting down um pc or my my pcs aren't working very well right now but anyways the bible
says for by grace are you saved your faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of god
and so the bible says that salvation is a gift and so if i had to do something other than
just receive that gift all of a sudden it's no longer a gift if my father came to me and said
matt i want to offer you a lawn mower for free it's a free gift so you can mow your lawn but i
said dad no no no wait a minute i'm going to do my part two all of a sudden that just ceased from
being a free gift if my father said hey matt you know you've got to you you you can receive this
free gift but you got to pay me ten dollars every month for ten months all of a sudden it just
ceased from being a free gift even if i had to pay him two pennies for the lawn mower and that's what
the bible says for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift
of god and so salvation is very simple jesus said in john 6 35 he says i am the bread of life
he that cometh to me shall never hunger and he that believeth on me shall never thirst and i
always like to ask people when i'm out soul winning hey is it hard to eat a piece of bread
they'll always respond no is it hard to drink a glass of water absolutely not and i love what
jesus told the woman at the well he said um he that drink of the water that that you have he
says you're going to thirst again but he says if you drink of the water which i give you you will
it will be a well of water springing up onto everlasting life you'll never thirst again
and so it's very clear all throughout the scriptures that salvation is one of the most
easy things ever and if it wasn't easy then we'd have a severe problem because every time jesus
referred to salvation he referred to it as something that was so simple and i love what
jesus said he said unless you come to me as a child you shall in no wise inherit the kingdom
of god so he's saying look unless you come to me as a little child a little child isn't perfect
and here's the thing i'm not born into my dad's family based on how good i am or my ability to
turn over a new leaf i'm born into his family based on his genetics that flow through me
and it's it has nothing to do with my good works now the bible says that if we continue in bad
deeds after that we're saved after that we trust in christ obviously god will punish us the bible
says in deuteronomy 8 5 as a father chasing with his son so shall the lord your god chasing you
and so right off the bat i just want to state that rc's position in my and from what i can
tell according to the bible and according just my everyday experiences talking to other people
out soul winning is no different than that of a mormon that of a jehovah's witness that of a
any other cult out there because they all say and it's it's unique in a sense though i'll give them
that it's unique in a sense because he says well i still believe in eternal security but here's the
thing when i ran into three mormons yesterday they said hey you know faith without works is dead
and i'm thinking right but faith without works exists it's like if i said hey my my my bird my
pet bird i don't have a pet bird but if i had a pet bird i said hey it died doesn't that mean
there's a bird there that we're even talking about for it to be dead so obviously faith without works
is dead in the same way it doesn't say faith without works doesn't exist it says that it's
simply dead faith and in first john which was one of the first places that rc was quick to jump to
and most of the lordshippers are pretty quick to jump to that passage they just read the verse
where it says he that sayeth i know him and keepeth not his commandments is a liar and the truth
is not in him but the very next verse and i'm going to pull it up here the very next verse states
if we walk excuse me but if we walk in the light as he is in the light verse seven excuse me
we have fellowship one with another so notice the wording it says we have fellowship so the
context there is fellowship he's saying look if you want to have a good relationship with me son
you need to keep my commandments and if you don't keep my commandments you're not a good son you're
a liar and so obviously that passage is not talking about somebody who didn't really get
saved or somebody that got saved and lost it we're talking about a relationship with the heavenly
father with god and the most clear passage of scripture on salvation is is obviously act 16
and you know the bible says and they brought them out and said sirs what must i do to be saved and
that's the one time in the entire bible that this question is asked and they say look what must i
do to be saved this guy's like look what am i going to do to go to heaven and the apostles
turned to him and said believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved one thing i want
to state right off the bat is you'll notice that rc in his opening statement and i'm not trying to
be disrespectful and cut into people with my opening statement here but i'm just trying to
be honest with what i see the one thing he said is believe on the lord jesus christ well wait a
minute where's the emphasis supposed to be for us the emphasis is supposed to be belief the bible
says believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved lord is just simply a title it's
just saying hey he is the lord he is the lord of glory and that's why the bible says that you
have to repent of dead works and have faith towards god dead works what are dead works
obviously you go out knocking doors you talk to enough people you'll find that just about every
person will say hey i'm trusting my works to save me i'm a good enough person i keep the
commandments i try to live a good life and if you're a calvinist if you believe like rc does
and i'm not going to try to straw man you here rc but obviously you'd say you'd say something
like well if you really have faith the works will be there too but the bible says faith without works
is dead it doesn't say faith without works doesn't exist it says faith without works is dead it
doesn't profit anybody else in other words so with that being said there's so many other things
that are just abundantly clear in the scriptures and to be honest it is a mormon teaching
that faith and works you have to have faith and works to be saved they believe that and they'll
even color code it they'll either they'll even butter it over like they did for me yesterday
well we're not saved by works but if you really have faith the works will be right along with it
and so it is abundantly clear all throughout the scriptures that we are saved by faith alone
plus nothing minus nothing and right at the beginning of this conversation you can go back
to the video back to the beginning of this video and you can hear rc say i believe that
salvation's by faith alone i'm quoting him he said i believe that salvation's by faith alone
however notice that wording however what they didn't say when the apostles brought these guys
out when this guy brought the apostles out and said sir is what my study to be saved they didn't
say believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved however they didn't say that they
simply said believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shall be saved so if i said hey viewer i
believe in you i i have faith in you another way of saying that's like i trust you right well the
bible says the moment that we trust christ that we're saved and we're sealed and no matter what
we could never lose that gift and i know rc claims to hold that position but the bible says that
salvation is easy and i'd be more than happy to talk about each one of the passages that he
brought up in his opening statement however i do want to point out right off the bat the bible
says that obviously jesus when he first came on the scene in the book of john said as the serpent
was lifted up in the wilderness so also must the son of man be lifted up so we have to go back to
the old testament and look at what jesus was talking about obviously the children of israel
in the old testament were having some rough times they're going through the the desert and these
serpents they were complaining and so god sent little fiery serpents into the camp you know and
these these little fiery serpents were full of venom and poison and when they bit the people
these people were just burning up inside with the venom and they were beginning to die off and these
people were dying one at a time and god told moses he said moses i want you to take one of these
serpents put it up on a pole and i want you to say three things to the people three words look and
live look and live i love that and you know when jesus came on the scene he said as the serpent
was lifted up in the wilderness so also must the son of man be lifted up the people when they would
look to that serpent they were instantly healed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and it had
nothing to do with how good they were all they had to do was look to that serpent folks if you're
listening to this and you haven't just placed your faith in christ and just look to the cross
i would encourage you to do that right now it's very simple obviously repentance is a part of
salvation but when somebody says oh repentance means to turn over a new leaf whoa whoa whoa
god repented more in the bible than man did and it's it's amazing when somebody says well you
have to repent of your sins number one that phrase is not found anywhere in any translation
of the bible repent of your sins number two the word repents the bible says god repented more
than man did in fact in jonah 310 and i don't have a bible in front of me but the bible says
in jonah 310 you can pull it up viewer and god saw their works that they turn from their evil
way so whenever somebody turns from their evil way god considers that to be works so and the
bible says in that same verse it says and god repented of the evil which he thought to do to
his people so god repented god changed his mind he changed his his way he was going to and that's
what the bible says in hebrew six verse one it says that we need to repent from trusting dead
works and have faith towards god so repentance is a very misunderstood word i think acts 238 and
x 241 go perfectly hand in hand and show exactly how repentance works you know obviously one of
the apostles stood up and said repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and most
people stopped there the mormons stopped there yesterday they said see you gotta repent and be
baptized i said well wait a minute three verses later the bible says then they that gladly
received his word were baptized so notice they said repent and be baptized and then the three
verses later repent and receive are used interchangeably the bible says then they gladly
received his word they that gladly received his word were baptized so over and over again it's
abundantly clear how much time do i got hunter three minutes uh 30 seconds i had no idea i'd
go this long but anyways um yeah i just i just want to reiterate to you guys and to the people
online here that salvation is simple and free if there's anything else that you'd have to do other
than believe it and receive it then it's not a free gift and obviously jesus said in john 5 24
he says verily verily i say unto you he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me
hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but has passed from death and life
but notice jesus is wording he says whosoever believeth on him that sent me the bible says
believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shall be saved the bible says in romans four five but to
him that worketh not but believeth on him that justify the ingotly so believe believe believe
it's stressed over and over in the scriptures and so when somebody says oh i'm justified by faith
alone however the moment they say that next word however or but i don't want to hear the word but
or however or well or another word after believe on the lord jesus christ and i shall be saved or
i believe in salvation by faith alone folks the only word that i'd ever want to hear and that
the bible actually says or ever ever has the only um character that the bible has after these words
is a period so it's believe on the lord jesus christ and i shall be saved period it's a done
deal once you trust christ you are saved saved saved and obviously if you continue in sin i'm
not saying we should continue in sin obviously how are we who are dead to sin going to continue
any longer therein so we should try and the bible says and he brought this scripture up in his
opening statement that we should that we should walk in good works the bible says in ephesians
2 8 9 for by grace be saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of god
not of works lest any man should boast so obviously it's not of works the bible says
for we are his workmanship created in christ jesus on two good works which god hath before
ordained that we notice the wording should walk in them so should we do good works absolutely didn't
say that god foreordained that we will walk in them the bible says that god foreordained that
we should walk in them so of course we should do good works and if we don't god's going to chase
most gods are going to punish us and just like every prophet the bible where god had these
situations with if you don't heed the punishment or the chastening hand of god the bible says that
you're going to get you're probably going to get taken home you'll glorify christ either in this
life or the next yeah but your salvation has nothing to do with that it has everything to do
with trusting jesus as your savior that's it and jesus didn't say come after me for salvation he
said come unto me for salvation come after me for service so let's make a clear distinction
between salvation sanctification when somebody blurs the lines to me it's an automatic red heads
up it's an automatically red light and it reminds me of the rest of the world religions and to me
it's the same thing as the rest of the world religions saying that works have anything to do
with it or that if you really have faith you'll have works that's my opening statement it's
dangerous okay awesome so uh you literally had 20 seconds left good job so pretty much uh this
is now just the conversation time so for at most one hour if you guys want to last that long
um the time starts now um so rca if you want to start off with a question back to them and just
go on with the conversation if you guys um you know have anything else or anything i'll still
be here and y'all go right ahead timer starts now okay so i do i was gonna originally ask that
because you did mention going back to verse 10 of ephesians 2 um so i don't think there's really
much to go forth on that um i did not of course ever say that uh we must do works to be safe
though i hope you understand that that i said that it we're saved by faith but the faith would
produce works meaning that after we're safe we would produce works um just making sure you
understand what my position is on that uh absolutely yep okay because with the way you
said it in your opening statement to me it's unlike you said that that i'm saying that we
must do works to be saved rather than we do works because we are saved already well from your point
of view when when when you talk about it i'm a very simple person but when you talk about it
when you talk about your position it comes off as being work salvation and how so well you say true
faith produces works but the bible says but to him that worketh not but believeth on him to justify
this his faith is counted for righteousness faith without works is dead it doesn't say faith without
works doesn't exist says faith without works is dead being alone right faith is alone because
that is what james chapter 2 mentions um even using araham who says that he was justified by
faith alone does mention one of the fruits of his faith of his salvation which is in which he obeyed
god especially by offering isaac in which he obeyed and followed through or not completely
but at least he was will he was willing to do such a thing that was asked of by the lord in a
in submission and obedience um so i think that's the main key point is that it's focusing on
that abraham had already believed way before then and it said at that time it was counted to him for
righteousness that by his faith he was kind of justified but there was also the evidence of
his justification uh due to his works but not that it saved him but that the faith uh showed
evidence of such faith that saved him that justified him okay i don't necessarily fully
disagree i don't fully agree either obviously i agree on the point where you said hey he was
saved the moment he believed absolutely but to say but and i can't stand it when people say but but
they have to have their works or they had to have works afterwards in order to have genuine faith
that is confused that that'll confuse anybody i mean if i was to go knock a door and say
you know sir ma'am um person whoever you are if you have genuine faith you'll turn over a new leaf
then they're not going to be able to make the distinction they're not going to be able to come
to the lord as a little child and just receive him the bible says to as many as received him to them
gave you the power to become the sons of god it doesn't say to as many as received him and um
started on a new path had the had the power to become sons of god what is your view of repentance
my view of repentance is simple it is that you have a change of mind because of your faith
and as a result you have a different way you look at the world because of the faith that you now
have in christ that saves you sure what what sins do you have to give up to be saved
what sins do you have to give up to be saved i mean as far as what the bible identifies
as the lifestyles of sin as which i mentioned in galatians chapter 5 verses 19 through 21 and
as i said would have been emphasized again in first corinthians chapter 6 verse 9 through 10
so with those passages um i found it interesting uh first corinthians obviously you said hey no
fornicator idolater adulterer or any person like this will inherit the kingdom of god
but and people always stop there but the bible says but such were some of you
but you're washed but you're made clean you're sanctified the name of jesus christ so
obviously we are we are washed in the blood of the lamb and so the bible says in such were some
of you so he says right look none of these people are going to inherit the kingdom of god but wait
a minute i i it says no liars i know i've lied before everybody's lied before and you only have
to tell one lie to be a liar right so let me ask are you are you a liar i'm a liar i've told one
lie now i've been washed of that yeah well it doesn't say by grace yes but the issue of which
the text is focusing on is those who continuously to this day practice a lifestyle of it and that's
why it says and such were some of you you used to live in a lifestyle of this until you have
you know come to christ and as a result that his blood has washed you he's cleansed you
so that would have been the repentance because they turned to christ they had a change of mind
towards that and gave their life to christ as a result that's why it is then with their watch
because they decided to put their faith and trust in christ so they okay so you said they gave their
life to christ yes um okay so you believe that that is a part of salvation to literally just
give your life to christ and when you believe in him that's believing in christ which will cost you
because according to the bible they believed in jesus and what had happened to them they even some
of them died absolutely yeah so i don't i don't necessarily disagree with you on that specific
point you just said but let's let's go back to the text obviously it says these people that do
these things will not inherit the kingdom of god your position and i hope i'm not straw manning
you but your position is well these are people that have a lifestyle of that right right that
they have a lifestyle because it is saying in the words of that they are drunkards or adulterers is
an identification and the text that is used there is a very continuous uh sinning a continuous
lifestyle of sinning okay i see where you're coming from okay that makes sense all right
so anyways um yeah absolutely and here's the here's the thing though what we have to understand
about this passage and about any passage that paul writes about obviously he says for all
have sinned comes short of the glory of god as it is written there's none righteous no not one
so he's saying look none of these people are going to inherit the kingdom of god you're not
righteous i'm not righteous and just because he adds a couple more characteristics of that to
another passage such as first corinthians doesn't mean that the meaning changed because you'd have
to contradict the rest of the other passages and that's why you could take it two ways you
could either take it the way that you're taking it or you could take it at the bible says well
such were some of you but you are washed talking about justification it says it says look nobody
that that has done these things will inherit the kingdom of god well i know i've done wrong things
you know i haven't necessarily committed adultery but or foreign excuse me fornication but i have
done other sins i've lied before you know i've cheated before and and like a game and but the
thing is i i am a liar according to the bible and according to that verse i'm condemned but the
bible says but such were some of you and it's not and the thing is if what you're saying is true
then obviously all throughout the bible you have multiple situations where you'd have to say that
certain people were not saved do you believe king saul was not saved concerning king saul i have no
idea as far as uh it's been a while since i read the passage but i mean he's from what i remember
he was definitely wicked and jealous for a majority of his life but i think if i'm not
mistaken there probably was a time where he did repent and have a change of mind towards how he
behaved towards uh david and changed his mind if i'm not mistaken like i said it was more towards
it was more towards david instead of god quick if you could clarify yourself that'd be so so you're
saying that there's a chance that god could have made an unsaved person the king the first king
of israel well as far as uh what he was uh he was a bit uh you know showing that he wasn't truly in
it for god he was uh sort of in it for himself as he showed he disobeyed god well i'm at that
well the bible says that god appointed him to be the first king of israel so you you mean to tell
me that god appointed an unsaved or possibly unsaved man right and i would say this this
view does not come with any assurance well i would also say that he appointed that same person
um and though it was directly making him a king he also appoints and uh orders for other people
that definitely weren't believers to do things like king cyrus who was a well-known pagan
and even the bible says that you do not know me uh king cyrus but yet he says that he speaks
highly of cyrus in the fact that he was appointed to deliver uh the israelites uh from their
captors but he used a pagan king who did not believe in god who did not believe in christ
to do to accomplish this task but i think we need to make a distinction because you're saying well
if god can use if god can use uh unbeliever for this situation over here god would make an
unbeliever or would possibly make an unbeliever that saw possibly could have been the ruler of
his very own people that is not that is not uh that is not biblical that is i believe that's a
false doctrine and i believe this well first off the bible says that when samuel was brought back
from the dead and most people believe that saul is in hell i'm just going to be straightforward
and honest most people i know john singleton believes that many people believe that saul
is in hell mormons jehovah's witness but i don't believe for a second that god would elect
an unsaved man to be the ruler of israel number one number two the bible says that when the witch
of endor resurrected samuel the spirit of samuel samuel looked at saul and he said saul he says
you're going to die he says saul tomorrow at this time you're going to be with me now where was
samuel obviously samuel was with the lord so saul would have died and went to be the bible says to
be absent from the body is to be present with the lord so obviously the moment saul fell on his sword
and commit suicide which is an awful sin to die in and i don't condone that i think that's awful
but saul did it and yet he still was saved the bible says he's with samuel so the bible point
blank says that saul is in heaven and there's no denying that so there's no way and just you know
and i'm not trying to be an idiot rc you're a nice guy and this is definitely a respectable
discussion but i think i don't think somebody could drain any more water out of the pool
under those circumstances does that make sense under the circumstance that god god would never
elect an unsaved man or say hey i'm gonna appoint an unsaved man to rule over my people that's that's
wrong right but so far i haven't really heard a biblical case that showed why he would not
um like any like forbidden restrictions like why it says okay i that uh anybody
that it has to specifically be a saved individual or a believing
a believer individual who would be saved and go to heaven um uh at that point that would remain
ruler i mean as far as you know maybe that that would be the case um at the beginning it seems
that way to them but you know when he's showing disobedience and showing more of the works of the
flesh versus the works of the spirit then it proves that as the bible also says that there
were those who claim to be of them but were not of us so as a result what we're seeing is that you
know he seemed genuine and honest at first but the whole phrase goes power corrupts and we see that he
was more and so capturing the the flock and what they were told to kill but they were going to use
it for what they were going to use it for their own gain their own benefit not to honor and give
the glory to god but to honor man to us and promote the sin of honoring man and boasting
up man in their own pride and in their own desires and that's where samuel had to rebuke
him and why he lost being a king at that point um so i mean that seemed like he was a believer
at first but it showed that he was truly not of them and truly not a believer if he was going
to disobey god like that versus what uh david had ended up doing um he was definitely obedient for
a majority of his life except of course the time with uh the sheba well i think there was many
times where david lived in disobedience towards god and first off i don't condone sin i you know
if somebody in my church or in in it's not my church it's the lord's church um if somebody in
the church of god is living in sin i will have no fellowship with them period okay and i think they
should be ashamed of themselves now do i believe they're saved absolutely if they've trusted in
christ they are saved and they are a backslidden child they're they're a rebel they may be the
black sheep of the family but then why kick them out if they're saved why kick them out of your
the fellowship if they're saved to be delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh
that's what the bible says it doesn't say the destruction of the spirit the bible says let
him be delivered unto satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day
of uh i think it says the day of the resurrection if i remember correctly so obviously we need to
put these people out says do not have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness
i mean okay i don't believe for any minute we should have fellowship with people
that are living in sin in fact i think they should be thrown out if the sin's bad enough
but regardless i wouldn't tell somebody hey you're not saved if if one of my friends commits
fornication which i think is a horrible sin i'm not gonna say hey you're not saved i'm gonna say
hey god is gonna judge you for that and that is a sign that you are not living for the lord
all right so let me ask this you say um okay that they are these people that are sinning that's
felt that's having uh you know being in darkness walking in darkness right uh it depends on the
situation there are certain people that sin that are so deep into sin that i believe they would
never come to the lord i believe there comes a point where god says i will love them no more and
they give they get given over to a reprobate mind so it depends on the situation okay um by the way
i find that interesting that you you know how you accused what i was saying being similar to what
the catholic or like what the cults had said even though what you said almost sounded similar to
this one catholic i talked to the other day i just wanted to point that out well even a broken clock
is right twice a day real quick though um if i may uh just to kind of get it back on the main
subject at hand uh i had a question for um rca and i have one for uh matt powell as well later on
uh but pretty much uh if i could just go over this verse right here and just have both of y'all
respond on it so act 1631 says believe in the lord jesus and you will be saved you and your household
so rca how would you respond to that well i mean i agree with the passage wholeheartedly amen
i think and this is what uh matt was trying to talk about is when i was focusing on the
emphasis of the lord jesus christ my emphasis on that is that yes it is a title of christ's
and the emphasis on that is the fact that we're the bible says that there are different christs
that are going to be preached about we need to focus on the true christ and the true christ
is obviously the one who has this title not only in just a namesake when you have that title
you obviously are going to live up to it and so we know that jesus christ is indeed
lord and when he is when he is lord what is one thing that's known from lords in the past in terms
of the kings it is a submission and when jesus is our king he is our lord we submit to him his
kingdom and especially when he says if you love me if you love me jesus christ keep my commandments
again we see issues of submission to the lordship of christ at this point concerning what the bible
says okay so my perspective on that obviously the bible says believe on the lord jesus christ
and right off the bat i want to say you said well it means submission we need that's what the
passage means submission to the lord and i hope i'm not straw manning you but i'm pretty sure
that's what you said well i'm saying that the issue of it saying lord um we have to understand
what it meant means to be lord and i say when we go to other bible verses again like i said
keep my commandments and all that stuff that seems clear but those are oh man those are two
completely different contexts you're paralleling first john which is talking about sanctification
to act 16 which i believe is talking specifically about salvation so obviously act 16 says believe
on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved and so if i believe on something i'm relying on
something it doesn't say submit to something be submissive it says believe on lord jesus christ
so it's simple right i understand and i'm agreeing with that but but what you would say is you would
add the word you'd say but if you look at these other passages i guess you'd probably have to go
back to the old testament and find a passage that talks about um david or you'd have to find the
passage like it says in luke where it says that thomas fell down before jesus and said my lord my
god well did thomas get saved there absolutely not you know he he confessed that he was lord
but thomas was already clean right from the beginning of of the journey with the apostles
that jesus had so right you know jesus said you're clean but not all and so obviously you know
speaking of judas so obviously there's a huge distinction and when you say well you have to have
faith in order to show that you excuse me it works has to be a byproduct of your faith and if you
don't have works you don't truly have faith that is that is there's nothing worse than thinking
that you're free in christ but being chained to work salvation i believe that that is work
salvation in disguise and anybody that you talk to on the street would be very confused after you
share that with them they would be very confused what would you tell somebody rc what would you
tell somebody if they said what must i do to be saved believe in the lord jesus christ as you
shall stay which is what i told one person that was a non-believer today at the mall and even
handed him a track from the fellowship track league yeah but the thing is they didn't say
repent and believe they could have said repent and believe but you would say obviously these tracks
i'm going to assume they have more commentary on that but i think we need to let the bible
interpret itself not necessarily the fellowship track league they for the most part of the track
just simply cite the passages um it's just simply doing that they barely put their own words they
just put the passage for like 95 to 90 percent of their uh tracks okay okay but yeah well um
are we gonna keep going back and forth hunter what do you where do you guys want to go with this
well i uh i got some topics i want to go approach but he does say he'll uh at you know about 15
minutes or like 10 i think it's been once it's even well if i can um it's only been uh five
minutes just the last question asked but if i could go and ask uh for matt i do have a question
because you made a comment saying um it's easy correct and how uh believing in the lord is easy
uh kind of the easy self the salvation kind of thing correct i'm not sure how many of you on that
oh yeah that's what the bible says jesus is the bread of life sure yep okay awesome uh the
question i have comes from matthew 714 because uh you're saying it's easy and matthew 714 says
but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life uh and only a few find it so if
it's easy why is only a few finding it so the bible says straight is the gate and narrow is the
way which leadeth in life and few that be that find it so obviously he's saying look there's
only a few people that find this way to life well what is the way to that's the way to everlasting
life but he defines what that way is down on verse 21 he says not everyone that sayeth unto
me lord lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my father
which is in heaven and then he describes what the will of the father is he says and this is the will
of him that sent me that everyone would see at the sun and believeth on him notice the wording
believeth on him may have everlasting life and i will raise him up at the last day jesus said
that's why he says whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die so within that passage it
says that the gate is narrow hardly anybody most people can't see how simple it is and so therefore
they're trying to add their own works and notice the context verse 23 excuse me verse 22 he says
many will say unto me in that day just a few verses later this is the context of the passage
remember we got to quote things in context he says many will say unto me in that day jesus speaking
lord lord have we not prophesied thine name in thy name have cast out devils and on thy name done
all these men are wonderful works lord why aren't you letting us in so they're saying look we're
trusting our works to get us to heaven and then jesus will say unto them he says then i will
profess unto them i never knew you depart from me ye that work iniquity so obviously these people
were not people that were saved and lost it or saved and just didn't have good works or you know
not really saved because they didn't have good works these were people that were relying on their
works that's why jesus said hey not everyone that saith unto me lord lord shall earn in the kingdom
of heaven verse 21 so it's very clear that it's a narrow way jesus said i am the way the truth
and the life no man cometh into the father but by me so the way is jesus christ and him crucified
paul says i can't have my own righteousness which is of the law but the righteousness of god which
is by faith the faith of christ so it's very clear that these people in matthew 714 and some
translations translate that incorrectly they say well hard is the way well no jesus says narrow
is the way there's a difference you know narrow means there's it's it's it's you know only a few
people get through you know it's a tight way jesus said i am the only way and so many other religions
say there's multiple ways to god but jesus said i'm the only way
all right does that make sense
rosie do you have a response to that well not necessarily a response to that because there
is something that that is what i've been wanting to respond to before the question
was asked and that was that i noticed earlier he talked about you know that faith without works
that is dead is a faith that still exists which again is an argument i've heard from stephen
anderson but that slates the question um that you know you know faith without works does exist
um like yeah i mean there are people that do have that kind of faith that exists and
uh one of those groups of people are devils um it even says in i believe the first john or
no james it's in james yes james uh where it says you believe good so do the devils um that believe
as well and they tremble they're in fear and why uh for one they're you know they're shaken they're
obviously realizing they're not as powerful and mighty as god in his glory and they're not in
heaven they're not saved according to that unless you want to go with the uh reconciliation universalist
position that does believe that yes they have faith and they are saved by grace through faith
and whenever the time comes they will be reconciled to god in the in the end and i think by that
standard we're going to say that this is a faith that still exists and they have that that would
be more consistent to say that then uh they have that same kind of faith that is describing james
and as a result that means that yes they will be saved eventually in that reconciliation period
or whatever but so you're saying that you know faith that is death that uh without works is dead
but it uh only is a meaning that you know dead things don't profit any anything for anybody
in terms of like uh you know for anybody else like for example uh you know if you if you were
a brother in christ and your work or your faith is dead it wouldn't produce anything good towards me
but probably for you but at the same time a dead thing doesn't to profit anybody period
i mean say you have a dead carcass that is in clothes and you say okay you gotta go shower
you gotta get clean obviously the person's gonna still smell the stink but also the dead body
is gonna stink meaning it profit itself nothing so the fact that it has this faith without works
it profits nothing of anybody else or even itself including the issue of salvation into the fact
that it's a dead faith that does not save i think that is something that needs to be emphasized okay
can i respond to that real quick before we move on okay yep so um that was quite quite a bit i'm
gonna try to respond to the whole thing in just a minute here just like a full minute won't take
too long so you said a faith without works is a faith that exists now so um you you've i think
you've adjusted your position a little bit if i'm not mistaken to say that there is now there
is faith uh that's without works but it's the faith that the devils have well obviously every
man is given his own measure of faith it's where we place our faith the bible says believe on the
lord jesus christ thou shalt be saved but in this context it says that the devils believe and
tremble so the devils are aware that god exists most people are aware that god exists and i
believe firmly that there are many people who believe in jesus but there's a difference between
believing in jesus and believing on jesus that's why jesus said he that believeth on me shall never
die so when we believe on jesus do the devils believe on jesus do they rely on jesus to get
them to heaven absolutely not so when somebody comes at me and says well faith without works is
dead and that's talking about the the devil's type of faith there's plenty of people who have
faith without works in the bible plenty of people and like it like we were talking about at the
beginning of our beginning of our conversation rcu have no choice but to say well saul he he
may not have been saved or he may have been saved even though that contradicts the nature of god
at its finest this particular passage in james 2 19 is very clear that the devils do believe in god
many people believe in god but there's a difference between believing in and believing on
and relying on jesus huge difference so um i think in a sense it's a straw man to say
well the only type of faith without works is the faith that the devils have well obviously not the
bible speaks of another faith without works he says he says you know some people don't have
these works the bible says in verse 14 of james 2 he says what does it profit my brethren though
a man say he has faith and have not works can faith save him and most people stop there and
say well see can faith save him well wait a minute let's keep reading on the bible says
if a brother or sister be naked and destitute daily food and one of you say verse 16 unto them
uh depart in peace be warmed and filled notwithstanding he give them not those
things which are needful to the body what doth it profit even so faith if it hath not works is
dead being alone how many times have we seen hungry people uh i can name times when i was
younger i saw a hungry person i didn't give them something to eat i should have taken them i should
have done something my faith to that person was dead and that's exactly what this context is
and so of course at times all of us are going to have dead faith and rc i think if you're honest
you would agree with that statement well to me i see when it says that passage it's showing that
in that context when you use that analogy where the context is definitely of loving uh somebody
a brother or sister and if they're naked and destitute of daily food um this person could say
that you know he's loving and trying to care for this person by saying and he's just simply saying
depart in peace be warmed be filled no and but however he doesn't give them the things to be
warmed and to be filled notwithstanding he give them those things which are needful to the body
so in other words you can he's saying oh be warm be filled i love you and all that but just saying
it doesn't warm them or fill them or show the love you have to show the action in order to show
that you actually love and are willing to then therefore be having this i have a warm i have a
question i have a question i don't mean to cut you off i know you've never cut me off so i respect
that but i have a question for you then so obviously it says uh if you say depart in peace
be warmed and filled verse 16 notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the
body what that the prophet even so faith if it hath not works in this situation is dead being
alone so um obviously you would agree then that there are times when our faith is dead to other
people and it doesn't profit anybody else would you agree with that just in context of some people
that how they view us well in this context in this context like define like in this context
referring to the analogy that he tries to use yeah i think the analogy is crystal clear saying hey
look if these people are naked and destitute of daily food these people are in bad shape
and you just say to them hey be warmed but you don't give them those things which are
needful to them are you not saved because you didn't give him those things because that's what
the bible's saying it says look your faith is dead being alone these people aren't going to
be profited by your faith well the issue that he tries to draw upon it is a making the analogy as
well as providing this statement in light of the context of the word he is addressing and that is a
bunch of people who are basically acting uh lazy as christians and thinking that you know they're
fine just simply being in this idea of oh we're just simply saved by faith therefore we can do
whatever we want which again would be later condemned as antinomianism but when it comes
to this it's simply trying to add on to the illustration and the analogy to emphasize that
not that if you sin once meaning if there was a time that you meet somebody and you don't offer
them anything would say i hope the best for you that that means oh that person wasn't
it doesn't have a saving faith no the issue is that he tries to point is that someone that he
is addressing would continuously do this they would not for a second even offer anything for
not for a second would they offer to do any bit of good works they would just continue to live in sin
without having to desire any good deeds or act upon good deeds unless they would be responded
to in the same way that james is approaching them and so if these people oh sorry about that no no
you're good and so if these people don't have uh that kind of faith if they don't if they don't
exercise in a sense i know the jehovah's witness bible says you have to exercise faith which i
think is really blurring the lines um but if you don't have this kind of faith that it talks about
in verse 16 then you would say you're not you're not truly saved right well i think that has the
works to back it up because he says if if if one of you say into them so he's talking to the church
he's talking to james and so um i guess what do you do with them
in which to do with what that he's talking to uh i'm sorry he's not he's not talking to james i'm
sorry did i say he's talking to james james wrote the book of james i think you said he's talking
to the church yeah he's talking to the church so obviously he says in verse 16 he says and if one
of you say unto them depart in peace so he's talking to the church so to me it's pretty clear
that he's saying look you know and from your perspective obviously you know if you're not if
you're not walking and you're not producing good fruit you would say that a person's never saved
i would say that that person simply is going to be chastened by god i think they're two totally
different things and i i believe firmly that it's actually another gospel but i'm sure we might get
into that later i don't know how you feel about it but you know honestly i believe yeah oh yeah
go ahead go ahead that's fine so where would the chastening as you're talking about be that uh
they're still saved but that's just a temporal chastement well the bible says in hebrews 12 6
that god the bible says he scourgeth every son that he receiveth for whom the lord loveth that
he chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth and he says if you be without chastisement
you're bastards in other words and i know people get offended by that word that's a bible word
you know folks we shouldn't get offended by the bible the bible says that you're a bastard meaning
that you're fatherless you don't have a father a heavenly father so if god's not chasing us
chasing us then we were never saved absolutely but i don't believe that you have to necessarily give
up certain things or give up your old life or or or do certain things in order to be able to
declare that i have true faith because that's what all the other religions say number one number two
i don't believe the bible teaches that anywhere other the only passages you could go to are
passages like john 15 and i don't mean to ramble on here i want to make sure you have equal time
but but um you know and i'll end with this in john 15 where you quoted earlier jesus said every
every good tree which doesn't bring forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire right
well obviously paul said and he says he'll become a castaway right but paul said hey i fear that i
could become a castaway you know as paul's saying i fear that i will lose my salvation absolutely
not it's talking about the fruits that we produce the good christian life that each one of us should
live and so the papa says you'll know a false prophet by their fruits and so if a false prophet's
doing something that that isn't right you can tell they're false if they're claiming to be
a prophet by their fruits so paul said i i feared that i could become a castaway so what do you do
with that passage so i'm being a castaway yeah paul says in corinthians uh that he says uh
excuse me let me pull it up here uh he says but i keep my at first corinthians 9 27
the bible says but i keep under my body and bring it into subjection lest by any means when
i preach to others i should become i myself should be a castaway so paul is using the same
wording that's used in john 15 so it's not that these people got saved and lost it or didn't
truly get saved and didn't truly have works paul is saying look you know he's paralleling that
with john 15 and saying look if you don't have works eventually god is going to make you a
castaway in other words god is not going to use you it's like a tree god's going to prune prune
things up and it happened all throughout the bible so right happened with many people right
and i would believe the castaway um is referring to um you know in reference to being a castaway
by men um in like being rejected and not being listened to um and we see instances that there
has been times where this has happened at least a couple of times in the book of acts
um like when he went to i believe it was when he witnessed to the the greeks that he was nearly
uh stoned um even though he managed to get a good amount of time in with them uh in his preaching
but in a certain case if he uh you know uh didn't keep his body under under his body and bring it
into subjection uh that when he's pre then when he preaches to others they'll immediately just
treat him as a castaway they will not listen to a word he has to say and i can say uh still see
this happen today when i go and you know show the light of christ um in the way i produce my walk in
life just like in the same way that i ended up witnessing someone at the mall today we had a
conversation he saw the deeds i've done as well as the knowledge that i had and that was easy to
help get a conversation i was able to give him a tract uh it had the the gospel on it and even
got to tell him simply the gospel as well i didn't have to i didn't have to say anything about you
know repentance and such i didn't emphasize that because that was not the issues that we would be
dealing with i didn't know who what did this person was going through and that's why the track
it does mention the passage that we went over uh several times during my opening statements
and mention of repentance especially concerning luke in luke 13 verse three and five
so i just simply gave him the message and i was able to do so not being a castaway and so that's
how i take that passage okay i see i see where you're coming from on that we disagree on the
application of the passage but that's fine and we could probably move on to a different
aspect uh hunter did you you said you had another okay yeah so full of questions
yeah so earlier what was brought up was matthew 7 21 through 23 where uh not everyone to sayeth
unto me lord lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he that uh doeth the will of my father
which is in heaven and so this is brought up and i got a question uh so pretty much in regards to
this passage um is calling on the crisis lord acknowledging his identity which is his divinity
or a confession of our submission to him as master and so that was the question that was
given concerning that that specific passage and that's to both of y'all is that is that to me
first or to rc first uh matt you can go first okay no problem so obviously in matthew uh 7 23
and in those areas when it says he that i believe it's verse 22 where it says um that he that uh
excuse me what is it what is the wording that jesus uses do you want me to read it to you he
said not everyone yeah i got it i i remembered i just had to pull it up in my mind jesus said not
everyone that sayeth unto me lord lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the
will of my father which is in heaven and people say oh see well you got to do the will of the
father which is to obey god in every area of your life well wait a minute jesus jesus interprets his
own words and the bible says we should let the bible interpret itself man shall not live by
bread alone but by every word so jesus said and this is the will of him that sent me so we're
talking about the will of god that everyone would see at the son and believeth on him may have
everlasting life and i will raise him up at the last day so he said many will say it to me in that
day lord lord have we not done all these wonderful works so there's a difference between making jesus
the lord of your life and believing on him according to jesus's own words which he reiterated
over and over and over and especially in that passage he says you have to do the will of the
father well he said the will of the father is that everyone would see at the sun and believeth on him
may have everlasting life and god will raise him up at the last day
and so you won't mind interpretation of that passage hunter yep well i mean from the way i
see it uh you know not everyone who says to me lord lord will enter the kingdom there are people
of course who will try to say lord lord and think that's what even that they just accept him
and just saying it and that that shall get them into the kingdom but note and even this is where
i honestly think that by accident matt accidentally preached a tiny bit of worship
salvation from the bible because it says while it says not everyone says lord lord shall enter
the kingdom versus where you you know you have the the passage of the bible does say
that whoever confesses with their mouths that jesus is lord lord lord shall enter the kingdom
or and be saved but however it says it's also but he that doeth the will of my father
which is in heaven then it mentions that you can stay lord lord but you also do the will
of my father who is in heaven um and so it says many will say to me in that day lord lord have
we not prophesized in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils and in thy name
done many wonderful works and they may have done some of these deeds but not in his name and
practice in reality they did it for themselves you have some people today that are trying to
claim to cast out devils but they're doing it for the sake of money you have people that are
claiming to prophesize but doing in the sake of money or fame you have people today that are
claiming that they do many wonderful works only to boast and brag about oh look how better than
i am these would be your benny hints these would be your uh jesse morels these would be your chris
lasalas these would be all these kinds of people that exist to which jesus would respond in verse
23 i never knew you depart from me you they work iniquity um so that's what we have going on here
in light of interpreting the context here and i just want to point out um that mean if he has
if matt has a problem with me just explaining what i did there especially based on just simply
interpreting the text of scripture from me just looking at it um i mean i would say that if it's
by bread alone then just referring to every word of god and not allowing you know simply our
understanding it then i would say that you know we should get rid of pastors because their job is to
help ex spout and exhort and expand on the word of god by teaching from it and it's not going to
be literally reading a script from the word of god they're obviously going to have to
expound upon it which i know is something matt does based on the sermons i've listened to his
so um i do have one thing i want to ask uh so considering acts chapter 16 verse 31 in
romans 10 9 and you go out soul winning matt um when you go out um because this is a question
i've heard um been asked and i think it needs to be asked would you then at tell them you know to
uh when it says lord uh jesus would you expect would it would you be okay with them uh believing
jesus is not lord well it depends on your definition of what you would say believing
jesus is or isn't lord is and that that's that's really uh like like just simply them saying uh
no jesus isn't lord like if they just simply say that he isn't well if they say hey he's
not the lord of the universe i don't believe in him in that sense then of course they're not going
to be saved so of course you have to know that jesus is the lord the bible says believe on the
lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved and the bible says that god was manifest in the flesh so
we need to understand and explain that to people if a jehovah's witness claims oh i believe in
salvation by faith alone i'm i'm born again but i can lose it i also you know he's not lord he's
not god because the lord and god are used interchangeably and i appreciate uh brother
kylo he was he was speaking to me earlier about this the the the people at that time understood
that the word lord meant god right so these people you know in order to be saved you kind of place
your faith you got to at least know who he is right so that would be my response is that so
you have to accept him knowing that he is the lord of the universe you can't think he's just the
you know the the magic sky monster as an atheist says or or you know or or just another god you
have to accept him based on his own words of who he described himself as being and he described
himself as being the son of god so so based on what you said though you uh believe you said that
it's uh that salvation is simple and easy um but you wouldn't people say that you know if you if
you're saying that they have to believe they can say they believe in jesus but they just don't
believe in uh as lord of the universe but you say that those people aren't saved when then people
have the right to then accuse you of making it complicated since they're simply believing in
jesus but they just simply because they don't accept that he is lord of the universe as a text
to say and then that means they're not saved absolutely not so here's here's the thing you know
the bible says that as a father chasing of his son so shall the lord your god chasing you so obviously
god compares earthly things to heavenly things so i observe my father i know he's my dad but if at
one point you know i just didn't obey him it wouldn't change the fact that he's my dad you
even if i didn't believe that he was my father it wouldn't change the fact that he's still my dad
i've still been born into his family so in order to be born you have to you have to have a father
and you have to obviously as a child uh you know that that takes that's a work of god that's not
a work of our own you know that's you know um being able to conceive like that and you know
it amazes me how the bible says a virgin shall conceive i think that's beautiful but when it
comes to the lordship of christ obviously you got to place your faith in him knowing he is god
and that's that's as simple as it gets and my relationship with him as with my father might
be good at that point it might be bad at that point there might be some work that needs to be
done but that's why the bible says god scourges every son of me receiveth if i made him the lord
of my life in every area then why would he have to chase in me what would there be to chase in me of
there would be nothing and so that's why you see he says point blank for whom the lord loveth
he chasteneth and scourgeth every son who he receiveth so when you receive him he receives you
and he chastens you that's why the bible says and i'll close out with this the bible says to
as many as received him to them gave you this the power to become the sons of god so let me ask this
then you of course i don't believe that's complicating things dude this i just want a simple
response to this do you believe someone has to accept the trinity to be saved
oh that's a deep question um i believe that somebody has to accept the deity of christ
and understand the beauty of christ now i don't go as far as to explain hey he's father son holy
spirit i don't do all that i just say look god was manifest in the flesh jesus is god and he
said i'm the way the truth and the life and so to get to god the father and sometimes i'll talk
about a little bit of the distinction between them but just tell the people hey he's outside of time
he's one god right but do you believe they have to believe in the uh a true god not a false god
absolutely so can god be both triune and say unitarian
absolutely not okay so if you have someone who claims to explain a what they call a trinitarian
formula even though it's a unitarian because it's modalism and the fact that they believe
that the father then becomes the son and then the son becomes the holy spirit if someone claims to
be that but then you have trinitarians like steven anderson um would you say and you would you would
say that steven anderson versus the modalist um is saved versus you know okay okay a couple things
so i don't believe that somebody has to have a perfect understanding of certain doctrines
of scripture to be saved now do they need to understand that jesus is god sure do they
understand everything about that no as time goes on they're going to grow and they're going to be
able to see the father and the son and that's why jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they
follow me and i give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish so obviously when jesus
saves us you know he says my sheep are going to hear my voice they're going to follow me
they're going to listen to what i say so if god's word says something and somebody doesn't believe
that i don't believe that that person is saved if it's a foundational doctrine and they're not
willing to accept what god's word says so when it comes down to belief absolutely i think that there
are certain things that will come in time but with the foundations of scripture all the apostles said
was believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved they didn't say oh believe on the
lord jesus now we have to explain all this about the the deity of christ that's why the bible says
great is the mystery of godliness god was manifest in the flesh i'm not gonna go on and on and on and
talk to somebody about what the bible refers to as a mystery which is the deity of christ and how
god manifests himself i'm not going to do that paul says it's a mystery but all you have to do
is receive christ by faith and i just share with people that jesus said i'm the way the truth and
the life of course nobody has to have a perfect understanding of the trinity to be saved okay but
if they never get to understand the trinity um then are they saved absolutely they don't have
to understand every little aspect of it you could you could get saved and die tomorrow you know but
over time if you're walking in the light the bible says we have fellowship with him in first
john so if we have fellowship with him we start to learn more about his nature and how he reveals
himself as a triune god and it won't be long you know i start people off in the book of john
reading once they get saved and baptized i say hey read the book of john and before you know it
they're going to come all the way back to genesis where the bible says god said let us make man in
our image and they're going to say whoa god is triune god is a plurality but yet he's one
right and okay find that very interesting um okay so you say that the bible says that salvation is
simple and easy um and you just simply say that it just simply says belief but does it say that
that means that it's simple or easy absolutely because jesus said in john 5 24 excuse me john
635 uh verily really i say unto you he says i am the bread of life he that cometh to me shall never
hunger and he that believeth on me shall never thirst so it's not hard to trust something it's
not hard to receive a gift is it hard to receive a gift obviously i don't think it is hard to receive
i think the issue is a gift i don't i think salvation is a gift is is it do you think it is
or it isn't is is it a gift okay it is a gift okay i'm not trying to i hope i don't i don't
want to come off as if i'm getting smart i'm just trying to really understand your position
well my position is that concerning faith we are saved by faith through grace or through faith uh
is by the grace of god of which we are done so and it is a gift of his but the issue is that
you seem to suggest i'm just simply asking for the words simple and easy and such because you
keep using it as such but i think the way when you're talking about faith it means including
at the after conversion not the uh before conversion but the after conversion after
you've already converted that seems to be easy um afterwards at that point oh okay okay so you're
saying when so it's easy to receive christ now but um but not necessarily to receive but i'm
saying in any circumstance i'm asking you to provide rather it be the words themselves that
describe it saying that it is easy or simple um because i keep hearing a heavy emphasis upon this
when i'm just simply using words like repentance and just what the bible says for most part no
problem no problem so i want to state um to you and all the viewers right now that ultimately
the viewer has to make the decision for themselves on this specific matter and so when it comes down
to it the verses that i brought up through this all the scriptures that i brought up through this
conversation moses saying look and live i'll ask you and let's not do any mental gymnastics is it
hard to look and live in terms in that way you're describing it no well that's how the bible
describes it jesus says as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness so also the son of man must
be lifted up is it hard to accept a gift i don't think it's hard to accept a gift okay it's easy
and that's why the bible says that it is the gift of god for by grace are you saved through faith
all the glory goes to christ and i'm not trying to be like element well in a sense i have i i
like to be and i'm not trying to be mean in any sense you're you're a slick guy rc you're a slick
fella and excuse me and you surprised me a little bit with this debate it's been a good debate um
and it's been very beneficial but i will say this you know when we talk about the simplicity of the
gospel it is so easy if a child can't understand it jesus said unless you come to me as a child
you shall in no wise inherit the kingdom a child easily relies on somebody they'll rely on their
father their mother to get them places to to to take care of them to do what they need to do
in order to sustain their life salvation is a gift and that's all i have to say it's it's easy
the viewer you you'd have to do a mental gymnastic you'd have to do hundreds of mental gymnastics
to look at all the illustrations of salvation in the bible and then say well it's still hard i
still think it's hard but you'd have to be you'd have to do that well i've been not making the issue
about the claim of it being hard and i was just simply asking you to point out the issues about
simply the terms of things like uh it being easy or simple like the terms uh being there but i
want to also ask that you know when you go out and uh preach when i'm did mention in luke uh
jesus's own words to the one of the last words to the disciples according to luke is that repentance
and the remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations beginning at
jerusalem and you are witnesses of these things so i mean when you go out do you follow suit with
this and preach uh repentance and remission of sins in the name of jesus absolutely it depends
on your definition of what repentance is when somebody says repent of your sins number one that
phrase isn't in the bible it's found in the book of mormon jacob 5 8 uh says in the book of mormon
if you're my brethren unless you repent of your sins their skin shall be wider than yours so i'm
focusing on the bible context though sure do you believe that repent means to turn from your sins
i had stated multiple times that i believe repent means a change of mind
okay all right so i believe repent also means a change of mind so when it comes to that i say hey
repentance from dead works and faith towards god and sometimes you have to define what repentance
is otherwise the person can't receive the message so absolutely that's exactly the message that i
preach and when somebody you know i had an agnostic call me today and say hey what must
i do to be saved after i had an hour conversation i just told him hey i walked him through it said
hey you need to believe on jesus you need to repent from dead works because his catholic
church told him that you had to repent or turn over a new leaf and keep the commandments and
in calvinism and in this other world view this lordship world view it's the same thing in disguise
in my humble opinion so what is what would you define dead works to be well the bible says you
who are dead and trespasses excuse me the bible says you who are dead and trespasses and sins
hath he quickened so bang we were dead in trespasses and sins but he quickened us so
we were dead and the bible says turning from dead works so a dead man can't do much you know they
can try they can try to live right they can try but i believe that anybody that's not trusted
christ is a dead man walking and they need to be regenerated okay so where does he say repenting
dead works and that is that is that is what you mean versus sins correct
correct hebrew six one just wanted to make sure so hebrew six ones where it mentions dead works
correct all right so let me turn there see
six one leaving the principles let us go unto perfection not laying again the foundation of
repentance from dead works and of faith toward god okay i can understand where you're coming from
there i do want to state or see this is a rabbit hole in and of itself and we could go on and on
for hours about repentance but in the bible and i know you'd agree with this because it's in the
bible that god repented more than man so right but i think our understanding of the repentance
of god is certainly a different aspect compared to the repentance and reference to the metanoia
that is mentioned and we disagree we we disagree on that that's exactly yep right so
i would believe it's more so of a of a grievance change of mind that he has not so much as of that
he's done something wrong and has a result change of mind and has to correct himself but more so of
a grievance so sure i saw um i saw hunter come off of newt so obviously i think he's got something
he wants to say well um actually i didn't know if you're wrapping up the conversation because
you literally have one minute left if anybody has one last remark on the discussion then you
have your five minute conclusions go ahead i don't have anything unless you want to say something
well i i just want to say i think it's been a good conversation and i'm ready to
close out uh with a couple closing statements whenever you guys are ready okay awesome well
if y'all uh want um so five minutes for your conclusion statements and rca or matt whichever
one of you want to go first um actually uh i guess we can have matt go first since rca started
so yeah so matt if you want to go ahead your timer starts now sure thing rob thank you so
much for having me on thank you for having me on as well hunter it's an honor to be able to
speak with you guys about this type of topic it was a good debate a healthy debate i appreciated
my opponent not yelling i know a lot of times getting some heated debates and sometimes people
would yell and cut each other off so i appreciate the respect there um so i just like to state you
know obviously uh viewer you gotta you gotta make the decision for yourself and ultimately it comes
down to i believe that some people believe that they're free in christ they think well you know
i have this faith and i have a genuine uh you know feeling of just faith but if i don't have
works to back this thing up then i don't truly have faith i believe that's a false doctrine
and i believe that um if you believe that then you're probably not saved um just being honest
and so you need to place all your faith in jesus to be saved and the bible says that once you do
that god will chasten you and he'll punish you and like several prophets in the old testament
obviously he had to take some people home so if you don't start living right obviously god's
going to chasten you but the bible didn't say believe on the lord jesus christ but
the bible didn't say believe on the lord jesus christ however as my opponent had stated the lord
the bible just simply says believe on the lord jesus christ and there's a nice little comma
after that in thy house excuse me and thou shalt be saved in thy house so then there's a period
which means it's an end of story it's a complete sentence add nothing subtract nothing that is the
the the precious seed of god and i just want to say that you know the bible says for god so love
the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him so that's our part in
salvation is to believe on jesus should not perish but have everlasting life for god sent
on the son of the world to condemn the world but the world through him might be saved and then
notice the words it says he that believeth on him it's not hard to come to the lord as
a little child if it's difficult then we have a severe problem because jesus said you know hey
you got to come to me as a little child oh just kidding um you know you need to you need to be
more mature about this and you need to be willing to give up your past you need to be willing to
give up your old life do i think you should give up your life absolutely and if you don't god's
going to punish you and you'll live in a hell on earth but the bible says that nothing can
separate us from the love of god which is in christ jesus and so whether you were saved and
lost it according to some whether you were not truly saved because you didn't have the fruit
that was supposed to come along with the faith whatever your worldview is if you have any of
those world views i believe very sincerely that according to the bible that you're not saved
and that you need to just place all your faith in jesus understanding that hey there is there
it is all on christ it is all by believing there's no repentance is not obviously if god
repented in the bible more than man did we might want to ask ourselves does repentance really mean
turning over a new leaf does repentance really mean the things that we can make it out to be
catholics will tell you that repentance is to turn from sins mormons will tell you it's to turn from
sins uh jehovah's witness will say it's to turn over a new leaf same thing and it depends on your
definition of what turning from sin is but in closing i just want to reiterate the bible says
that if you believe on jesus christ that you're passed from death and life and you shall never die
jesus said in john uh chapter i believe it's chapter 11 verse 26 and 27 jesus said i i am
the resurrection and the life he that believeth in me though he were dead yet shall he live
and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die so believe believe believe
and there's no place in the bible i firmly believe there's no place in the bible that
says if you don't have works then you don't truly believe i don't believe that i believe
that that's a mormon teaching and i believe that that is joining the other religions of the world
thanks
all right awesome um rca uh your five minutes and it starts let me get it real quick
now there you go all right so i just want to say this that i believe that you know it's that's
what was partly described that you know you have the faith of a child to accept the faith but the
issue is that you still also tell a child what they can and can't do in terms of you know that
you know you love them and you know they can simply also obey children obey um as well so
they come to the parent they come to the parents and they come to have an acceptance in faith and
the parents they also if you're under the you know under that household you have to be in obedience
so by that analogy we have to keep that in mind and so simply this this is the simple gospel
message that is of lordship salvation that i preach at every single debate that i end with
and that is this uh that because we are all sinners all have sinned fallen short of the
glory of god and no one is able to uh right themselves by their own deeds therefore they
cannot save themselves or earn salvation and as a result we deserve judgment we deserve
wrath upon us however god has made it so that we do not have to be having that wrath that is
because he sent his son jesus christ into this world so that through him we that when we believe
in him and through him we will not perish but have eternal life and so when we put our faith
and trust in christ we are saved the lordship salvation part that seems to be disputed
is the part in ephesians chapter 2 verse 10 where it talks about the works that we are created to
walk in that we should walk in them because why we have been created and we are the creation of
christ we are created unto good works the bible tells us multiple times that we should do works
met for repentance acts chapter 26 verse 20 so when we believe after such as paul preaching to
these people when we believe we should do works that are met for repentance because they jesus
had called sinners like us to repentance and if we don't repent it says it says in luke 13
verse 3 and 5 except you repent you shall likewise perish these are what the bible's
verses state and are so clear and it says in first john that if you walk in darkness
but claim to have fellowship with him in the light you do not know the truth and it says that you are
a liar as a result but however note that while we should not while we should not try to sin
and while we should try to steer clear from a lifestyle of sin if we mess up if we said
even as we proclaim to be believers in christ we will not lose salvation but rather it will show
rather not if we decide to stay in unrepentantness it shows that they as the bible says they claim to
be of us but they were not of us or in this case first john chapter 2 verse 1 my little children
brethren these things i write unto you so that you sin not but if any man does sin we have an
advocate with the father jesus christ the righteous we can have forgiveness of sins by
praying to god because of the blood that he has shed of the remission of sins and the forgiveness
of sins it is by his work that we are saved and able to be redeemed not by our deeds but if we sin
as john says do not sin sin not we could still ask for forgiveness because we have the advocate
jesus christ so of which i simply say put your faith and trust in jesus christ
for he is the one and whom we are saved by not our deeds and because of our salvation
because of the work he has done you can not only just simply see salvation in the afterlife but
salvation and how it affects the new body and how it affects your life here on earth and how
it produces the good fruit and the good works in which it will change your life in the same way
it changed my life when i gave my life over to christ on easter of 2013 and like that i end my
time all right awesome well thanks guys for um showing up and nice guys for uh being a part of
the debate and everything i hope that everybody's gotten something out of this and after that uh
there possibly will be a hangout afterwards so if anybody would like to join just let us know
in the live chat i'd like to thank rca and matt powell for both joining us
and we are signing off y'all have a blessed day god bless