When I was born, I became the son of my mom and dad.
Can I change that?
No.
So is my mom my mom forever?
Yes.
What if I'm really bad, would that change who my mom is?
Absolutely not.
What if I did something horrible, I killed someone,
would my mom still be my mom?
Yes.
My mom's already passed away, but is she still my mother?
Yes.
If I die, is she still my mom?
Yes.
So what can change who my parents are?
Nothing can change.
So this is how I would relate salvation,
is that when you believe on Jesus Christ,
you become God's son.
No matter how good or bad a son you are, you're always his son.
Deep in the heart of Fort Worth, Texas
is Texas Christian University, TCU.
And we decided to go to the campus
to talk to different students about Christian topics.
Since they go to a Christian university,
you would think these students know a lot about the Bible
or that they're saved.
But we went there to put them to the test
to see what the students had to say
and see if any of them could prove me wrong.
All right, I'm here at TCU, and we're sitting down,
we're talking about salvation, and I'm sitting here with who?
Ray.
Ray, my sign says salvation is by faith alone.
What do you think about that?
I believe that pretty firmly.
Pretty solid Christian, grew up in a pretty Christian household.
And I do believe that salvation comes by faith.
And I believe that through Christ, all of us
are saved, if you believe in him.
Awesome.
So just to drill down, just to ask a few other questions,
what do you think about someone losing their salvation?
Do you think once they've put their faith in Christ
that they're saved forever?
Or do you think someone could lose their salvation?
That's a pretty tricky question.
I do believe that you can lose your salvation
by deviating away from your faith for too long
or by rescinding your faith with the church.
But I do believe that you can earn it back by devoting
yourself back to your faith and staying the course.
If someone lost their faith and then they came back,
could they lose it again and then come back again?
I think that could potentially happen.
I think that that happens probably a lot
through people's lives as they deviate from their faith
as it's pretty hard to stay on Christ's given path.
And I'd say that it's happened to me, obviously, a lot.
Because I've found myself deviating from Christ's path a lot.
So I think that people can deviate from their salvation
a lot, but I think people usually find their way
back to Christ through something or another.
Do you think going to heaven is a one-time decision
that can't be changed?
Or you look at it more like a lifestyle?
I look at it in a lot of different ways.
Sometimes I think about it like it is,
if your name's in the book of life, you get into heaven.
If your name's not, then you're condemned to damnation.
But I do believe that you can change that answer
through your life and the choices you make
in your salvation and in your faith.
Would you say that you're a Christian, Catholic?
What is kind of your background?
So I'm just a Christian, non-denominational.
Just kind of grew up going to church.
Never, like, I've been to a few Catholic masses,
but pretty devoted Christian.
And I'm open to pretty much all views on Christianity
and I don't prefer one over the other.
Do you think if someone believed in Jesus
but they're not living a good life,
they're not going to church,
not following the commandments,
do you think that person would still go to heaven?
I believe that they can.
I believe that salvation comes through Christ.
And while you may not be upholding those decisions,
like, you're not making the decision
to get to heaven yourself.
That's up to Christ himself.
So he could save you even if you haven't made choices
that are in line with your faith.
Well, let's say you believe today
and then tomorrow you commit a really big sin.
What do you think's a big sin?
Big sin, you know, anything breaking the Ten Commandments.
You know, murder, dishonoring your mother or father,
adultery, any of those are very large sins,
but anything against the direct Ten Commandments
that God gave to Moses I believe would be a big sin.
So let's say someone believes today
they commit murder tomorrow and they die in the process.
Do you think that person's going to heaven or hell?
I believe that they could still go to heaven.
If they believed in Christ and then they realized
that what they've done was dishonorable
and they're willing to atone for their sins,
and they ask Christ for their forgiveness,
I believe that they can still get into heaven.
What if they don't atone?
Let's say they believe today, tomorrow they commit murder,
and they don't feel sorry for it,
and then they end up dying or the cops kill them
or something, is that person going to go to heaven or hell?
What's your opinion?
I believe that that choice is up to Christ.
You know, it might be more likely
that they're condemned to damnation
as they don't feel as if they have committed a sin
against Christ or against themselves and against their faith.
But I do feel like that they would be more
as likely to suffer in damnation
as they don't see that what they've done is wrong.
They let evil into their life
and they let evil consume them.
So therefore they've condemned themselves
to a life full of evil.
So this is a pretty extreme example, all right?
And I'm not recommending this by any means,
but since I do believe that salvation is faith alone,
I would say that someone who believes in Jesus
never follows any commandments, never does anything right,
and doesn't atone for their sins would still go to heaven
based on that faith alone
and not have anything to do with their lifestyle
or their works or anything like that.
Is that, are you saying you kind of disagree
or don't look at it that way?
I just look at it through a lens of
that decision's up to Christ.
And it could be through some of the decisions
you make in your life that could help him make that decision
but I mean, yes, your faith in Christ does,
it is written out in Christianity.
All who believe in me will live forever
in eternity with me in eternal paradise.
So I do believe that yes, your faith does hold
a lot of weight, but I do believe that to some extent
you have to uphold your beliefs on your end
instead of just saying, oh, I believe in Christ.
I can go commit all these sins
and just because I believe in Christ,
that's my redeeming salvation.
See, it sounds like you're kind of mixing the two
from my perspective.
I do believe, can I show you a few verses?
Is that all right?
Absolutely.
All right, so of course, it sounds like we both agree
that we're all sinners.
Christ, according to the Bible, is God's son.
Do you agree with that?
Absolutely.
The Bible teaches that he died on the cross
for all of our sins, past, present, future for every person.
Do you agree with that?
Absolutely.
According to the Bible, he rose again from the dead
and he ascended back up into heaven after his resurrection
and he's gonna come back one day.
Is that something you also agree with?
Absolutely.
Okay, so according to the Bible,
it does ask the question one time,
what you have to do to be saved
and kind of that wording.
It's in Acts chapter 16, I'll just show you the verse,
but it says right here,
and they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
and thou shalt be saved was the answer.
So he said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
and thou shalt be saved.
So when the question's asked,
the only answer given is to believe
on the Lord Jesus Christ.
According to this verse,
does it say you have to do something other than believe?
It is not.
Now to believe on someone goes beyond
mere intellectual assent
or acknowledging someone's existence.
I believe the Bible is very clear
that believing in someone means you trust them, okay?
So I could believe that a police officer exists
and not trust him, is that true?
Yes, absolutely.
I could believe Biden exists and not trust him,
is that true?
Absolutely.
All right, so you understand there's a difference
between those two, right?
So if I said, I believe Jesus is real,
but I'm going to heaven because I'm a good person,
go to church and read my Bible.
Does that sound like all of my trust is in Jesus
or is some of that in myself?
I believe some of that's in yourself.
So according to the Bible to be saved,
I believe the Bible is very clear
that you have to change what you believe.
If that was that person's choice
or is that person's belief,
that they have to change their mind
and put 100% faith in Jesus, not 90-10, not 50-50,
but rather believe that it's only what Christ did
that would save you.
The Bible even says in the most famous verse,
you might even could quote it for me, John 3.16.
Oh yes.
What does it say?
That God sent his one and only son to die for our sins.
It says, for God so loved the world
that he gave his only begotten son
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish
but have everlasting life.
Does this verse say you have to do anything
other than believe to be saved?
Does not.
So see we have a second verse
that kind of says the exact same thing.
It says you get a gift, everlasting life.
It says in the verse preceding,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish
but have eternal life.
Same thing, right?
So there's three verses.
If we look at the next down in verse 18,
he that believeth on him is not condemned
but he that believeth not is condemned already
because he had not believed
in the name of the only begotten son of God.
So one guy believes, he goes to heaven.
The other guy does not believe, where does he go?
He goes to hell.
Now does it say what these guys' names were?
It does not.
What church they went to?
Does not.
How good a person they were?
Does not.
If they prayed?
Does not.
If they repented?
It does not.
What's the one thing that determines
if one went to heaven or one went to hell?
If they believed in Christ.
So I believe that's the only thing
that decides if someone goes to heaven or hell.
Of course, the Bible does teach we should pray,
go to church, read the Bible,
follow the commandments, do right.
But the deciding factor is if one believed or one didn't.
And the Bible teaches when you believe
you become God's son.
It says in John 1-12, but as many as received him
to them gave you power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name.
So if you believe in Jesus, you become his son.
Is that something you've probably heard of before?
Yes, I have.
So it's like being born again, right?
Exactly.
When I was born, I became the son of my mom and dad.
Can I change that?
No.
So is my mom my mom forever?
Yes.
What if I'm really bad, would that change who my mom is?
Absolutely not.
What if I did something horrible, I killed someone,
would my mom still be my mom?
Yes.
My mom's already passed away, but is she still my mother?
Yes.
If I die, is she still my mom?
Yes.
So what can change who my parents are?
Nothing can change.
So this is how I would relate salvation,
is that when you believe on Jesus Christ,
you become God's son.
No matter how good or bad a son you are,
you're always his son.
Now, if you can't change who your parents are,
it's a one-time event.
Would you agree with that?
Absolutely.
I believe the same with salvation.
It's a one-time event that can never be changed.
Once you're saved, you're always saved.
Once you're a son, you're always his son.
Now, of course, if I lie, steal, cheat, commit adultery,
do wicked things, the Bible tells me
God will punish me for those sins.
I could go to jail, get the death penalty.
Bad things could happen to me.
But according to the Bible, I could never change the fact
that God is my father.
Now, Ray, if I said, you know what?
I'm gonna go live with your parents
and I'm gonna follow every single one of their rules
and now, from now on, they have to call me their son.
I'm their son.
Is that how that works?
No, it is not.
So I can follow someone's rules and not be their son.
Is that true?
Correct.
Same as with God.
Someone can go to church and try to follow the Bible
and follow all the commandments,
but according to the Bible, that does not make them his son.
To be a son of God, it's through the faith
in Jesus Christ that would save us
and according to the Bible, it's a free gift, okay?
Do you think that a gift has to be free
in order for it to be a gift?
I guess that varies.
It depends on the gift itself.
I mean, I do believe that the gift of faith
is free in itself.
All you have to do is accept Christ into your life
as your savior.
While a lot of the materialistic gifts
that are here on earth aren't necessarily free,
a lot of them give that temporary satisfaction
while I believe that the faith is an eternal satisfaction.
Well, just use a simple example.
Let's say I wanted to give you my Bible today,
Ray, and I said, Ray, I'll give it to you for $100.
Is that a gift?
I don't believe it is.
What if I said, I'll pay 50 bucks, you pay 50 bucks.
Is that a gift?
I don't believe so.
If I charge you money, would you call it a gift?
No.
So it's like a good deal, maybe?
If I gave it for you a dollar or a penny,
that might be a good deal, but it's still not a gift, is it?
What if I said, well, how about no money,
but you have to wash my car a couple times?
Is that a gift?
No.
So it does sound like you agree with me
that gifts would have to be free
for it to be classified as a gift, okay?
The Bible actually even goes on
beyond just saying that salvation's a gift.
It literally calls it the free gift.
It says the righteousness of one, talking about Jesus,
the free gift came upon all men under justification of life.
So according to the Bible, salvation's called a free gift.
If God said, Ray, you can go to heaven,
but in order to go to heaven, you have to believe in me
and go to church, read the Bible and follow the commandments.
Would you say that as a free gift?
I would not.
So actually the Bible says the same thing.
Jesus already paid all your sins.
He paid for the gift 100% so he can give it to you for free.
Okay?
Once you have it, the Bible teaches that
once you have eternal life, you can't lose that.
No man can pluck you out of God's hand.
And it even says that nothing can separate you
from the love of God.
It says, for I am persuaded that neither death nor life
nor angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present
nor things to come nor height nor depth
nor any other creature shall be able to separate us
from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So according to this verse, it's similar in the way
that if a parent says I love you no matter what,
it's how God actually loves us that are saved
in saying I will never stop loving you for any reason.
Now is that true of people that go to hell?
I believe so.
I believe that God still loves people
no matter what, because God created all of us in his image.
And I believe that God loves everyone.
However, those that are in hell did not have faith in him.
But I do believe that he still loves them.
So do you think that sending someone into a place
of eternal fire and damnation where there's burning
and suffering and there's no rest day or night,
that's a loving thing?
I'd say that's hard to answer.
Well, I mean, I stand by that God loves everyone equally.
Despite if you have a faith or not,
I believe that God shows his affection
for all of us in different ways.
Just as our parents do.
Okay, what about John 3.16?
We read it earlier.
It says, for God so loved.
Is loved a present, past, or future tense?
It's a past.
So if I said I loved you,
does that sound like I still love you?
No.
So if God says that he loved the world,
but it's in a past tense,
does that sound like he's still loving the world?
It does not.
How about this verse?
He that believeth on the sun hath everlasting life,
and he that believeth not the sun shall not see life,
but the wrath of God abideth on him.
So would you say that this person
is simultaneously having the love and wrath on him?
I believe so.
Okay.
So what if I showed you a verse
that says God does not love someone?
Would you believe that verse?
I mean, I guess it depends.
Okay.
Well, let's look at Romans for a moment.
And I wanna look at Romans chapter number nine.
It says, as it is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
So would you say that this verse,
and this is in the context of God speaking,
but does this verse seem to give the idea
that God actually does hate people?
Yes, it does.
Okay.
I would say that the Bible does teach
that God does hate people,
and he hates everyone that's in hell.
The Bible does say many times that God hates people
in the book of Psalms and in the New Testament.
And I would think that that's a good thing
and in the New Testament.
And I would think it's bizarre to think
that if I were to put you in a fiery pit
where you're burning for all of eternity,
that I said I love you at the same time.
Does that not sound contradictory?
It does.
Okay.
Well, I would just say, again,
I understand that the Bible teaches
that God loved everybody at some point.
There's no doubt that God does love everybody at some point,
and God wants everyone to be saved.
But I do believe there comes a point
when God no longer loves people
and that he would send them to hell because he hates them.
Just to give you a sample,
the Bible has a couple verses in the book of Psalms
where it just makes it really clear
that God doesn't love every single person.
The Bible says,
For thou are not a God that hath pleasure and wickedness,
neither shall evil dwell with thee.
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight.
Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing.
The Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
The word abhor is a synonym with the word hate.
I could even show you probably a couple hundred verses
that say that God literally hates people.
Just to give you another idea,
in Psalm 11,
the Bible is talking about
what God's gonna do to the wicked.
It says,
The Lord trieth the righteous,
but the wicked and him that loveth violence,
his soul hateth.
So based on the few verses I showed you,
do you think you would possibly say maybe
the Bible does teach that God actually could
potentially hate people?
Yes, it does.
Okay.
And does it kind of make more sense
to think that God's hating people that are in hell
rather than loving them?
Yes.
Okay.
So if God wants you to be saved and he loves you,
he would make salvation easy, don't you think?
Yes.
If you only have to believe one time
and you're saved forever
and it's not based on your future works,
would you say that's hard or easy?
I'd say that's pretty easy.
So that's what I think the Bible's very clearly teaching.
If I have to continue following the commandments
and doing right and praying,
that sounds kind of like hard work.
What do you think?
Yes, it does.
So actually the Bible teaches
salvation's not hard, it's easy.
It's not difficult, it's simple.
The Bible teaches it's a one-time decision
of trusting Christ and once you're saved,
you're saved forever.
Those who do not believe in Jesus,
the Bible says unfortunately they'll have to be judged
according to their works and God will send them to hell
and he actually hates them
because they decided to reject the gift
that his son gave them.
Imagine if you committed a horrible crime
and I said, you know what,
I'm willing to let my son go to jail for you
and you know what, he's gonna suffer for you
and he's never done anything wrong in his life
and I wanna do that for you so that you could be saved
and then you spit on my face and you reject that.
Wouldn't you think maybe I'd be angry
at having given my son for you
and making that kind of a sacrifice for you
and then you still rejecting that?
Don't you think that could make you pretty angry?
Oh yes.
So that's actually where a lot of the anger's coming from
from God is not only that we've sinned
but also that you've rejected the free gift
of what his son did for you, okay?
So according to the Bible, salvation, like I said,
is a one-time decision, it's a free gift
and it's not based on our works at all.
Look at this verse.
It says, therefore we conclude that a man is justified
by faith without the deeds of the law.
So even if I had no deeds of the law,
according to the Bible, I could be justified by my faith.
Let's take it to an extreme
because we talked to an extreme earlier, all right?
Romans 4.5, but to him that worketh not,
meaning someone that never did anything good,
but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness,
even as David also described the blessings of the man
in whom God impudeth righteousness without works.
So do you think based on these verses,
the Bible is saying that someone
could be saved without works?
Absolutely.
So that's where my premise of today
is I believe salvation is faith alone without works.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have works.
I'm not saying that they're unimportant.
I'm saying they have nothing to do with salvation.
But if I do believe salvation is in works anyway,
am I really trusting in Jesus?
No.
If I think I can lose my salvation by doing something bad
or turning away from church and stop going
or stop reading the Bible,
do I really believe that Jesus paid all my sins
and I'm trusting him alone,
or does it sound like I'm kind of trusting myself?
Sounds like you're trusting yourself.
So to be saved, I do believe
someone has to acknowledge a few facts, okay?
We're all sinners.
Sinners deserve help.
But God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross
for all of our sins.
He was buried and rose again.
Do you think you agree with all those things so far?
Absolutely.
According to the Bible, there's one thing
that said we had to be saved.
What was that, do you remember?
Believe in Christ.
Does it say believe and go to church?
No.
Does it say believe in anything else?
It does not.
If I believe, the Bible says he gives me a gift.
Do you remember what that gift was?
Righteousness.
I get his righteousness imputed unto me, that's true,
but there was a specific gift I'm thinking of in John 3.16.
Do you remember what that was?
Eternal life.
Can I lose that for any reason?
You cannot.
Is that a little bit different
than what you were thinking earlier?
Oh yes.
Okay, so earlier you kind of thought
maybe salvation could be lost, even regained,
lost again, re-lost.
Do you see how what I'm showing you is different than that?
Absolutely.
Okay, so I do believe that someone that wants to be saved
has to understand that salvation is a free gift
that cannot be lost because it ultimately points
to what they're really believing in their heart, okay?
Because if I think I can lose my salvation,
I don't really think that the person's
fully trusting in Christ.
I think they're still kind of trusting
in themselves a little bit, okay?
Have you ever ridden on a plane before?
I have.
Did you fly or the pilot?
The pilot flew.
How do you think it would have gone
if you had tried to fly that plane?
Probably pretty poorly.
Do you think both of you could have flown
a plane at the same time?
Possibly.
Yeah, but probably not.
Probably would have had an issue, right?
I believe the same with salvation.
You can't try to fly the plane of salvation.
You have to just let Jesus be the pilot
and you just enjoy the ride.
Now of course you should follow the rules of the airplane.
You should be a good passenger, right?
But for salvation, we just allow Jesus
to be the only one that takes us to heaven.
Does that kind of analogy kind of make sense to you?
Oh yes.
Okay, I want to show you one more verse, all right?
I thank you for your time.
The Bible says in Romans chapter 10,
it says in verse nine,
that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart
that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.
So according to the Bible,
the only thing you have to do
is simply confess and believe in your heart.
If I prayed, Ray, asking God to save me,
but I do not believe in him, would that save me?
I believe that it would, according to that verse.
Maybe you misheard my question.
Let's say I pray but I do not believe.
Oh, okay.
Would that save me?
No.
You're right.
Even if I prayed every day,
I still wouldn't be saved because I've never believed.
Do you agree with that?
Yes.
If I prayed and asked God to save me,
but I think going to church,
being good and following the commandments,
that's what's getting me into heaven,
would that save me?
No.
You're right, why?
Because all you need is your faith alone.
And that faith needs to be in Jesus, not myself, right?
If I think I can lose my salvation
by committing sin in the future or doing something wrong,
is that really gonna save me even if I pray?
It won't.
Why?
All you need is your faith in God.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I think it's because it points to the fact
that I haven't put 100% faith in Jesus.
I'm still holding on to some percentage
of me being good, being faithful, or doing right,
and so I have to humble myself
and decide it's only what Jesus did
and put 100% faith in him.
Does that kinda make sense to you?
Oh, yes.
Okay, so based on what I showed you,
if you changed what you believe a little bit
and you say, you know what, I kinda thought it was both,
or I kinda thought it was faith
and you could lose your salvation,
and you changed your mind, you think it's only faith alone,
what I would like to do is just help you say
a simple prayer, tell God you believe
it's just a one-time free gift in him,
you're trusting him alone, and then you could know
for sure you're saved forever.
If that's something I could do with you right now,
would you wanna do it?
Absolutely.
So I'll just give you some words and you can say them,
but only say them if you mean them in your heart to God,
because the only thing that matters
is if you believe in Jesus to save you.
Does that make sense to you?
We'll just pray real quick out loud, all right?
Dear Heavenly Father, I know I'm a sinner
and I deserve help, but I believe you sent your son,
Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for all my sins.
He was buried and rose again.
Please save me and give me eternal life.
I'm only trusting in Jesus, not myself.
Amen.
Did you mean that, Ray?
I did.
So if you were to die today, where would you go?
Heaven.
Why?
Because I put my faith in Christ.
Did you get a gift when you believed in him?
Yes.
What was that gift?
Eternal life.
Can you lose that for any reason?
You cannot.
Do you see how that's a little bit different
than what you were thinking when I first asked you?
Yes.
And that's great.
We want people to make sure that they know
that they're saved, that they're not hoping or guessing,
and that they realize they can't lose salvation
because it kinda points to the fact
that they didn't put 100% faith in Jesus.
The Bible does say that you can know you're saved
in 1 John 5, verse 13.
These things have I written unto you
that believe on the name of the Son of God,
that you may know that you have eternal life
and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.
So you can know you're saved
if you've believed in Jesus Christ.
It doesn't say if you're good, if you continue to follow,
if you're faithful, it's if you believe.
Does that kinda make sense to you?
Yes.
Now of course, should you go to church,
read the Bible, follow the commandments?
Yes.
Is anything I said today motivate you to live a wicked life?
No.
Absolutely not.
All right, good.
If we sin, the Bible says God will punish us on earth.
We can go to jail, get the death penalty.
God will make sure we get horrible consequences for our sin
but that consequence will never be going to hell
because he loved me and gave me eternal life.
Does that kinda make sense to you?
Yes.
Absolutely.
What Bible do you use?
I use the King James Version.
Amen, that's the only one I use.
It's the one I have today.
Other versions, I don't know if you know this,
modern Bibles take verses out of the Bible.
Have you ever heard of that before?
I have heard of that.
So we have a documentary.
I'd love for you to check out.
It's called The Preserved Bible.
I'm gonna give you a free movie ticket today.
You can watch it online whenever you'd like.
And it just talks about the history of the Bible,
where it came from, and the King James
and what's different about it and other versions.
So I'd love for you to watch that or check it out.
Okay?
You're a student here, is that correct?
I am.
And what classification are you?
Uh, like religion or?
Junior, senior, I don't know.
Oh, I'm a freshman.
Freshman.
What are you striving, like what degree
are you striving for?
Do you already have a degree that you've picked out?
Yes, I'm a biochemistry major.
Biochemistry, so what do you wanna do with that?
I wanna hopefully go to med school.
All right, and what kind of doctor
or what kind of medical practice do you wanna pursue?
Hopefully under anesthetics as an anesthesiologist.
Anesthesiologist, this guy's gonna make big bucks,
okay ladies, so if you wanna check out Ray.
Thank you so much for coming out and talking with us.
Of course.
Do you have any questions for me?
No, sir, I really appreciate it.
God bless you, you have a great day, all right?
God bless you, you too.