For those of you that aren't aware in John 3 16 it says for God so loved the world that he gave his only son
But the so isn't a degree. I don't know if you know Greek the who toast behind the words in it in the Mika
Yeah, so wait. Hold on. God love in it in the Mika. I don't speak modern Greek, but I can okay
Yeah, so it's not very fun teeny Greek. Yeah coin a I call it coin. Is that the Erasmian pronunciation? It's Erasmus back from the dead
you
College is considered an institution of higher learning
Where students are supposed to be challenged their ideas are?
questioned and to become the best future leaders of our nation I
Decided to go to the University of Texas in Austin to find out what the best and brightest of our state had to offer
We hear that our institutions are being infiltrated with feminism communism
Liberalism
Atheism, but maybe they have better ideas. I put them to the challenge to see if anyone could prove me wrong
Hey, this is Pastor Shelley at the University of Texas in Austin
and we're just talking to different people here on the campus about their views the
premise that we have to kind of start the conversation is that God hates people and
that's pretty much just in the context of that there's some people that God just genuinely hates and
I'm sitting here talking with who met and matter. Are you a student here? Yes. What kind of classification are you?
What do you mean like a junior freshman senior? Oh, I'm an alumni taking the class
Is it like a master's like work or I do have a master's but I'm just here for professional development taking a specific class
I understand and
So what kind of degree do you already have?
my undergrads in math
My master's is in biblical studies
Interesting. Okay, so it sounds like you have some Christian background
Would you classify yourself as a Christian or specific the denomination again? Non-denominational?
Evangelical Christian, okay, so, you know today we're kind of just talking about the premise of God hating people
What do you think about that?
Yeah, I mean I guess I would say I disagree I understand
I think the verses you're probably gonna pull from but I guess I would disagree with your premise
Okay, explain to me why you think that that God doesn't hate anyone
Well, it might depend on your capacity for nuanced thinking
So, I don't know how quick to be like I don't think good theology happens in sound bites
So but we could start with for example, John 3 16 a verse you probably are aware of
For those of you that aren't aware in John 3 16
It says for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, but the so isn't a degree
I don't know if you know Greek the who toast behind the words
I don't speak modern Greek, but I can okay. Yeah, so it's not very fun teeny Greek. Yeah coin a I call it coin
Is that the Erasmian pronunciation? It's Erasmus back from the dead
So anyway, so is that like a dead language that people actually?
Communicate and Erasmian or are they born speaking Erasmian communicate? So it's not functional as the language. So I just read it
Have you read the New Testament in Greek? Yes
More than once okay, but the word behind the translation so isn't a matter of degree like oh
He loved the world so much that this is the thing that he did. It's a matter of classification like for purpose
So this is how you know that he loves the world
Him giving Jesus his only son to die for us, right so that will not perish but have eternal life
That is the proof that he loves the world now. Do you think that Jesus actually did die for us? Absolutely
I believe that God sent his son Jesus Christ
The Bible makes it clear that he's only begotten son and that the only premise for salvation is to believe in him
The Bible says and like you said in John 3 16 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life
I also believe John 3 16 is looking at things from the idea of a past tense event
That's already happened for us in the sense that Christ has already died. He's already been buried
He's already been Rosen again, and that was the object of John 3 16 talking about God's love
But it's talking about something that's already happened in a past tense sense and I believe that that does not mean that God is actively
Loving every single person
I believe there's many proof texts in the New Testament and the Old Testament that show that God is actually hating
Individuals to be specific people that are burning in hell. Do you think that God loves them?
Well, hold on you go you go super fast, so we didn't finish the first conversation
Okay, so so you believe in the proof of his love, but you don't believe that he does
I believe that God is love right and so when you talk about love as an identity and not an action
It's something that he's always expressing no matter what he does. I
Believe that God is love and at the same time you have to realize that you can't love everything
You can only love certain things
So God loves the truth
But he hates lies that is part of his ontology if we're gonna talk about theological discussion
So yes
I do believe that God's ontology and his inherent being is love and I believe that there's always been love between the Father Son and
Holy Ghost and the Holy Trinity and so it's it's correct to say that God is love
But I believe it's also correct to say that God hates certain things. He hates lies
He hates sin God
Despises the flesh he's at enmity with the flesh according the Bible and I believe every person burning in hell right now
God absolutely and genuinely hates so I'm kind of just asking I don't feel like it's it's different than what we've been talking about
Do you believe that God is loving the people that are burning in hell? Well, first of all
The the second death as an eschatological reality hasn't happened yet
True the Bible does say that the first death is hell and the second death is the lake of fire
But I believe that people that have died today are in hell, which is the first death
Do you believe the people in the first hell and the in hell in the first death that God loves those people?
Yes, but actually it doesn't say that the second death is the lake of fire
It says it the other way around the lake of fire is the second death
So you have to know how to read apocalyptic imagery. So for example cows coming up out of the Nile are years
It doesn't mean that years are cows. So there's an image and then there's what it means
There's something that's perplexing and then there's the plain truth
So the perplexing image is a lake of fire, but it's not intended to be literal any more than cows
The truth of it is second death. But to your first point. Yes. God does hate things as an expression of his love
but that's why I wondered if you had like a
Capacity for nuanced thinking because in Proverbs it says God hates a lying tongue
That doesn't mean he let he that he hates of the tongue
He hates deceit right? Does that make sense? I
Believe that God hates sin and the sinner I believe it's it's both because without the sinner you cannot have sin
Sin does not exist in a world where there is no sinner. And so God actually hates the being he hates the individual and
To answer one question the Bible does say this in Revelation 20 verse 14 says in death and hell were cast into the lake of fire
This is the second death
So I think it is theologically correct to say that the lake of fire is the second death based on the premise of this verse
Yeah, but you just have to know how to read apocalyptic imagery. So like the lampstands are churches
Right the stars. Yes. There are metaphors, right? So that's the same kind of construction in the language
It's the same thing as saying the the Baker for Pharaoh's court had to have literal baskets on his head
No, they just represented days. I believe that there's certainly metaphors imagery analogies poetry in the Bible
What happens to death in the eschaton is is death ongoing or is it no more?
death is considered an enemy and is considered conquered at the basically the end of
God's
Death there shall be no more death, which means what happens when you throw something into the lake of fire is
When
I throw something into the lake of fire
Well, I believe that I believe the Bible is giving in context the great white throne judgment where those who are dead are
Resurrected one time to the resurrection of damnation and they are then judged according their works
They're then thrown into the lake of fire and that's classified or described as the second death
The first death was going to hell the second death was classified as going into the lake of fire
And so it's kind of a synonymous term and in my mind when I say death, you know
Yeah, but that's not that's that's we're talking about a metaphor here I believe that do so you do have an appreciation for big-picture concepts
Sure, okay. So then in general, yes, we understand that God hates sin. He doesn't hate the tongue
He hates the lying tongue what it really represents is deceit, but he shows his love by
Dying for those very kinds of people who are not only
Committing acts of atrocities sins but are also themselves oppressed by it
So that is why he's seen as our great Redeemer and rescuer
So here's an example you go to Zechariah and you see this prophetic image of God
Using this heavy stone in this event in Jerusalem where the nations are going to gather against the inhabitants of Jerusalem
But he's going to give great rescue and the people are gonna see him and this is Yahweh speaking even him whom they pierced
It's kind of a confusing prophetic imagery because it's in the Old Testament
but in the book of Revelation that you were just quoting from
John and and God it's you know
They're describing that it is actually that all the nations of the earth that are gonna see and weep over him whom they pierced in
other words John and God are showing that the
Prophetic fulfillment of what Zechariah saw is that all the nations tribes and tongues are going to come to some contrition over Christ's death
But that also means that they themselves become the beneficiaries of his death
So in other words God's intention is to to conquer through his love and it will involve death to his enemies
But that doesn't mean he hated them
Does that make sense? I?
I think I obviously I agree with you just an end times prophecy and and the pictures that are being foreshadowed
And Zechariah are talking about Christ obviously piercing on the cross
That's also mentioned in Revelation as people looking to Christ returning from the clouds
He's pierced and he's gonna destroy his enemies and and I think at the end you're saying that doesn't necessarily mean he hates them
I would say that he does hate them and I would say
An example of a verse that talks about the
Distinguishment between the lying tongue and the person would be Psalm chapter 5
The Bible says the foolish shall not stand in thy sight thou hatest all workers of iniquity
This is one example, but there's many of God describing his hatred for the person not just the
Physical body member that is used to commit sin, right?
That's why I brought up the proverb because it's it's not really about the tongue is it
Obviously, there's hands that shed innocent blood that doesn't mean God hates hands, right?
But God hates the person who sheds innocent blood just apply the same logic here
He doesn't hate the hands. He hates the iniquity, right?
In this was if he's able he hits the workers of iniquity, right?
But it's the same thing is a physical thing and then there's what it represents just use the same logic
So someone burning in hell God loves that person
He hates the sin and he will give people death and actually one reason why he does that is in Genesis
He looks that they have been made like him
Knowing good and evil lest they should then reach out their hand and take from the tree of life and last forever
He doesn't even he doesn't finish his sentence
Why because for God it's an atrocious thing that someone would have length of days and live forever
In sin and enmity with him which is why the wages of sin is death, right?
But that's you're talking about people that get reconciled in this context, right?
So I agree with you in this premise that God
Did not want God did not want us to stay in a sinful condition and live forever in that condition
So that's why so he sent a redeemer to to redeem
I do not believe death is a mercy death is an enemy
He didn't want them living forever in a state of sin
He doesn't want us to say sinful because he cannot have fellowship with us in a sinful condition
the only way to have true reconciliation to God is for us to be in a
Regenerate state where we have no sin. So God can't dwell with sin. He can't be in the presence of sin. He hates sin
Well, I'm talking about God the Father specifically God the Father
No, Jesus 100% God because you're on some treacherous territory here, I'm not on treacherous territory seen the Sun
Jesus Christ became sin. Okay, but at the same time God the Father
Cannot cannot have sin dwelling in his presence. He can't be in the same context
He's not gonna allow sin to be in heaven in heaven. He's not gonna dwell with sin
I'm not trying to quote any verse
Chapter one. He says God your eyes are too pure to look on evil, but then he keeps going he says then why do you?
So Habakkuk is wrestling with this false idea that God can't be in the presence of sin
But who's one of the people that goes before God in Job chapter 1?
Obviously the devil is given opportunity to stand before God and he's given the opportunity to communicate with God
and God's interacting with
Humanity, but but he's not going to dwell with sin in heaven. He's not gonna
Right. So so in order for us to dwell with God and for us to look upon his face
We have to be we have to be regenerated if a man looked on God's face today talking about the Father
Specifically the Bible says that he would die and I believe that's because of the brilliance that God holds his glory is too magnificent
It would just kill us
So we would have to have a regenerated body a new body a glorified body that could then handle
The true holiness and the glory of God so to only have if we live forever in our sinful condition
No in our in our sinful condition, then we can never have true restoration with God
We can never have the fellowship that he wants us to have. Of course God descended from heaven
I believe talked with Moses face to face albeit. It was clouded in
and smoke
Of course Jesus is made flesh so people evidently saw him to handle them touched him he healed the sick Peter
Well, everybody's a sinner, right?
So if God couldn't be in the presence of sin
Like obviously Jesus wouldn't be I'm seeing that God's glory and holiness cannot be in the presence of sin and this in this in the context
That it would kill all sinners instantly
So it's actually what you see in second Thessalonians 1 9 right with the fire and flame and vengeance
It's coming from his face engines on them and flaming fire, right, but he's not separating them from his presence
It's actually the destruction is coming from his presence
So the word the phrase from the face of the Lord
That phrase is only used one other time and it's in the book of Acts when there's rest and peace given to the church
It's from the face of the Lord meaning that's the source of it. So the destruction is
From his face. He's not separating them in a quarantine like you said he destroys sin
So, let me ask this Jesus does God love the devil
Everything he does to everyone is an expression of his love. I don't think he intended the devil to rebel
so I want to I want to ask of a specific verse then because I
Feel like we're just genuinely disagreeing
but
But here's the thing in the book of Hosea
Okay, God gives us a very clear statement about how he feels about the children of Israel in Hosea chapter number nine
When God's talking to
The children of Israel he's saying that he's gonna reject them. He's basically kind of divorcing them and he uses that as an analogy
It's not necessarily a literal divorce, but he'd also says this he says all their wickedness is in Gilgal
There for there I hated them for the wickedness of their doings. I will drive them out of mine house
I will love them no more. All their princes are revolters
So the Bible says that he hates them and he'll love them no more
But you're telling me it sounds like that you're saying that you don't think that God ever stops loving people
Everything's an expression of his love. Am I am I am I saying that correctly?
Yeah, because he is loved
So yeah, I think you can hate as an expression of your love
But I don't think this verse means that he no longer loved Israel because remember that there's this holding
There's this promise held out for Israel
I believe that this is very clear that he says he hates these people and he's not gonna love these people anymore
I do not believe that this is in context of Israel
spiritually prophetically or
Every single person that is ever gonna have the title of Israel
Obviously, he already loved Jacob that's in the past right and he didn't stop loving Jacob in this verse and he's not gonna stop loving
Israel in the future when we talk about
This the the prophecies of
Redeeming Gentiles, they're called the Israel of God. We have the Apostle Paul's of the tribe of Benjamin. He's arguably Israel
He's still loved of God
but these people that he's addressing that are at this time in history have gone so far to reject God and
Commit adultery against him that he now no longer has anything to do with them. He wants nothing to do with him
He's gonna reject them
He's gonna divorce them and in this time in history
We have the nation of Israel and we have the nation of Judah. We have the two different nations, right?
Israel literally gets wiped off the map the Assyrians come in and destroy them and in this context
He's saying I will love them no more meaning that northern kingdom of Israel has been rejected by God
I'm saying that those people God truly hates. I feel like you're still saying that you disagree
You think he still loves those people? Is that true? Yeah, because there's there's so much stuff in the Bible
You have to decide what is a superordinate
Umbrella category under which you interpret other things. Does that make sense? So it seems like you have really camped here and
Other verses that talk about how God is love and demonstrates his love
You've sort of shoehorned under this instead of over that would that be fair to say
No, I think there is context
I understand maybe you can have a greater context and so there could be something nuanced that you're misunderstanding based on a greater context
But I'm not misunderstanding the greater context of the Bible the book of Hosea or any of the arguments I've made
God loves the truth. Therefore. He hates lies God loves righteousness
Therefore he hates wickedness and God loves those who believed in Jesus Christ and have been granted his imputed righteousness
But those that have not been given his imputed righteousness he hates for their iniquity
He hates them for their sin
And if they do not choose to believe in Christ in this life
They will go to hell and they will be rejected for all of eternity. He wants nothing to do with them
They're gonna be burning for all of eternity and from our perspective. We won't even remember them ever again
The Bible says the former things are passed away behold all things have become new
You know the Bible is talking about the fact that we're gonna have a new heaven a new earth
He's gonna wipe away all tears and in Isaiah
It gives kind of imagery to the idea that
We won't even remember this world at all because the new world is gonna be so glorious
that we will have forgotten and I do not believe the people that have been forgotten and are burning in hell and
Are having no rest day or night you could ever say that God loves them actively. He did love them at a point
So I would say that God always
Loved every single person at some point right like you could say genuinely God loved that individual at one point in time
You already believe that I think that I've always believed what I'm saying right now, yeah
I don't think that there's ever been a time where I disagreed with what I'm saying right now
I think I find it fascinating that many Christians deny the fact that God hates people who are in hell and
That God would hate anybody that's alive today and I believe that both are true
I believe God hates people in hell and I believe that he hates many people that are alive today
And so, you know, it's important to understand those principles so that we can exit scripture
Of course live a Christian life and govern ourselves appropriately. I think many Christians today
are afraid of things like the death penalty because of the have the idea that love is
Unconditional cuz cuz here's the thing if God loves every person equally and he never changes on that and
He wants them to have an opportunity to be saved and they they're not saved, right?
I would think the death penalty be the worst thing you could do because you're basically cutting off their opportunity
To get saved or to go to heaven and that would be
Something that would make sense
but if God genuinely hates this person or wants this person to be put to death and
That's how his feelings are that I believe should align ourselves
With his feelings and his emotions and that we should agree to them
So someone from the audience reminded me I have to leave at two one one quick question. Did you pay for a theology degree?
Actually before I answer that I want to go back to what you just said
So yeah, I think we should align ourselves with what God thinks right, but I wanted to bring up something from the Samuel scrolls
so God reject
Rejected Saul remember that the first King
Yes, okay
And so it says that he repented of having made him King, but then in the same chapter
It says he does but he doesn't repent the way people repent. So it's it's the same word
It's it's ostensibly the same author same context. So I would just say that we need to be careful in general just
Interpreting God's actions through human lens. So you brought up Hosea in the context of like a
Mock divorce proceeding, but I wouldn't want to overly anthropomorphize God in that setting
So I would say well, okay God rejected Saul and he made repentance of it
But he doesn't repent the way people do so. I think we always have to make sure that okay, there's context
There's poetry but the super ordinate concept is that God does love people
I do believe that God loves people and and and I'm not saying he doesn't he doesn't
It's both aren't true because he loved everybody
Everyone by sending Jesus right and I think actively he's loving the vast majority of people today and he wants them to be saved
But I he doesn't want anyone to perish the Bible says God is not willing that any should perish
But that all should come under repentance. So God wants everyone to get saved, but I do believe someone could
Does that verse like is that contingent?
Or does he always want no one to perish?
He always wants no one to go to hell and would that be an expression of his hatred
That would be an expression of his love, right? Okay. So I I mean we might have to stop there cuz I need to go
Hey, I I appreciate it was mad again. Yeah. Thanks for having a conversation with me. All right