Alright guys, welcome back to Framing the World Live.
I am your host, Paul Wittenberger with a great show for you today.
We're going to be talking with Pastor Matt First.
So for those of you who don't know who he is, he is the author of Which One is Right?
The King James Bible vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
So it should be a really good interview here today.
You can get a copy of the book at FramingTheWorld.com.
But this book really blew my mind.
So I must say, I have been fundamentally changed in some aspects of my belief system on the
post-trib rapture and yeah, my mind is just totally blown right now.
I cannot believe that I'm actually saying this, that I have adjusted what I believe
a little bit based upon his book, Which One is Right? by Pastor Matt First.
So I recently had the opportunity to read Pastor First's book.
I don't agree with everything, but I'm not an expert on these issues.
I just am just a guy.
So I'm definitely not an expert, but I have made a few materials based on the post-trib
rapture I made after the tribulation, which is the seminal movie pretty much that goes
into the post-trib pre-wrath rapture and why that is accurate.
And I am super proud of the film.
I'm sure many of you that are listening have seen the film featuring Pastor Steven Anderson
and we also talked with Kent Hovind in the film.
So it is definitely a great film and this is a great book.
I think this is the best book on the issue because I know Dr. Roland Rasmussen wrote
a book and I know there's another book about it, The Rapture Plot, which is another book
about the post-trib rapture, but this book right here I really believe is great at really
laying out why the pre-trib rapture is a fraud.
And one of the statements that he wrote in the book, which kind of explains what this
book is about, it says,
This book is not a thorough explanation of my position of the post-trib pre-wrath rapture.
Rather, this book is a thorough explanation of why I cannot believe in the pre-tribulation
rapture.
Hopefully, Lord willing, a separate book will be written soon, explaining in great detail
the understanding of the end times events as found in the revelation of Jesus Christ,
along with its connection of the rest of scripture.
So this book doesn't necessarily outline exactly what Matt first believes about the post-trib
rapture, but it does prove that the pre-tribulation rapture is false.
So I thought that this book is just great.
And so if you do want to support us at FramingTheWorld.com, make sure you head over to Framing The World
and get a copy of this book, Which One Is Right? by Pastor Matt First.
And right now we have a sale, a couple dollars off, if you get that book here today.
But yeah, super excited to talk with Matt.
And for those of you who don't know who he is, he is the pastor of Mountain View Baptist
Church in Custer, South Dakota.
He and his wife have four children.
The first is have enjoyed serving the Lord in pastoral ministry for over 25 years.
One can learn of their history by pursuing their church's website.
The church's web address is mountainviewbaptistcuster.com.
That's mountainviewbaptistcuster.com.
And so we're going to be talking with Pastor Matt First here in a couple of minutes.
We're going to be talking about his book, Which One Is Right?
And where he just demolishes the pre-tribulation rapture and is just literally source after
source after source.
He quotes everyone on this topic and basically just proves that the pre-tribulation rapture
is false.
And he uses some arguments that I was not necessarily a believer on, but the way he
presented the arguments I thought was really powerful.
And I must say, I have been converted on some aspects of his view on the post-tribute rapture.
And I wanted to talk with him about this on the program today.
So Matt, thank you for coming on the show.
How are you doing today, sir?
Good, Paul.
Thanks for having me.
Well, you know, cancel culture has really played a big part in church.
And I know in the foreword of the book, who is it?
Pastor...
Clem?
Yeah, Pastor Scott Clem wrote, it appears cancel culture was present in the church long
before it went mainstream in society.
And that is so true.
If you go against the pre-tribulation rapture, you really are canceled.
What's your thoughts on that?
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I can raise my children biblically.
My children have a great testimony.
My wife and I, our church is a thriving, blessed church.
We're King James only.
We have good standards, good music.
But because I'm not pre-trib, man, I tell you what, I am a nobody and they don't want
to talk about Matt first.
And it's just amazing.
I guess it just kind of proves the point in a roundabout way.
And so I appreciate the Bible believers that are coming out and are just saying, hey, you
know what?
I'm reading the Bible and it doesn't match the commentaries, it doesn't match the theology
I was taught.
And I heard about your after the tribulation way back when, was it 10 years ago now?
I don't remember how long ago it was that came out, but I was not familiar with you.
I was not familiar with Steven Anderson.
I was familiar with Kent Hovind and I do think Hovind is probably the best teacher on the
subject of creation evolution.
And so then I also was familiar with Roland Rasmussen and that book, post-trib pre-wrath
rapture.
And I don't agree with everything in Rasmussen's book, but I knew he was independent fundamental
Baptist and King James.
And I appreciated the book.
I learned some things in that book.
The quote from George Mueller, I learned that from that book.
And you guys, I think you used, I think Paul, you used Rasmussen as your narrator for that
video that you did.
And that was great.
Really thrilled to see somebody like you with great video experience, quality video and
King James only mindset coming out and talking about the pre-trib problem.
So that was awesome.
So I appreciate it because my pastor Wayne Williams had been talking about it for years
and I really didn't know any other independent Baptist that was talking about it.
So it was really exciting to see the Holy Spirit using other people and motivating them
through the word of God.
So as a result by my pastor and his thesis and his teaching is, is how my books have
come about.
But who is Israel?
What came out eight years ago?
Which one is right?
Came out about a year and a half ago.
So appreciate your comments about that.
Thank you so much.
And you're right.
It's not a detailed explanation of what I believe.
It's more, this book is more just why I can't believe pre-trib.
There's just no way.
If I believe the King James Bible and I do, then I can't be pre-trib.
And I think a lot of guys out there know that there's problems, but they don't want to go
there because of the politics and the cancel quote.
Right.
Well, I really love this quote that you put in.
I really hope that the IFB will one day get to the place where they treat pervert pastors
and pastors who cover up for perverts the same way they treat pastors who are different
on eschatology.
Yeah, that was such a, that was a great quote.
And of course, Tommy's a friend of mine and yours, but I just had to put that in there
because it's so true.
I mean, it's like, really, you can have a child that's in animal sacrifices or child
sacrifice and somehow you'd be okay as a pastor in some circles.
But if you're not pre-trib man, you are bad.
You are just, you are, you are out there.
It's just amazing.
It's just amazing how we've been treated.
And I think it's because the fear and truth is not afraid of examination.
So obviously there's fear there and they don't want to touch it.
They don't want anybody to even notice us, but, but it's growing.
And there are a lot of people that are reading their Bibles and saying, I don't get this
chart stuff, this pre-trib chart and all this stuff.
I don't, it's not matching my Bible.
I think what it's done is it's caused a lot of people to not believe the Bible because
they're so ingrained in indoctrinated in the idea that pre-trib has to be right, that the
Bible must be wrong.
And I, I prove even in my book that there's a couple of places where quote unquote King
James defenders are actually changing the text and going with the critical text and
the the Alexandrian lineage to keep their position.
I'm not going to do that.
My Bible is more important than my theology.
I can change my theology to fit the Bible, but I'm not going to change my Bible to fit
the theology.
And that's, that's just where I'm at.
That's what independent Baptist is supposed to be.
Well, I think it's hard for a lot of people because they were raised to believe this.
I mean, our, my generation, especially from when I was a kid, I watched the thief in the
night.
I watched the left behind series.
I was totally blue.
I believe this all throughout college.
And I think it was, you know, right after you know, listening to pastor Anderson for
the first time, I realized that I was, I was wrong.
And you know, once I realized I was wrong about this subject, then I really, it really
opened my eyes more to the Bible because the Bible became much more clear and the pre-trib
rapture is super, super confusing.
And so I appreciate people that are in the chat writing.
Rain door says, I'm going to read this book.
I already read pastor versus book.
Luke, Luke said he's already read it.
So I know there is people out there that are supporting this book.
Cassie McMurtry wrote or Cassandra great book.
So it is, it is a fantastic book.
And I just really encourage people to step outside and, and their, their thought process,
if they do believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, give this book a try.
It definitely presents the arguments.
It knocks down each of the pre-trib arguments one by one.
And I think it does a great job.
Well, it's my experience that the establishment, you know, I don't know if it's because they
don't want to give up their golf and go back to studying their Bible or, you know, they've
started a Bible college and they've got all their curriculum just set and they don't want
to have to, you know, go through the headache of rearranging everything, but Hey, you know
what?
Truth is truth.
And if it's truth, it shouldn't be afraid of examination.
And if it can be destroyed by the truth that deserves to be destroyed by the truth.
And you know, I don't even explain to know that I understand everything about the end
times.
I just know that my Bible does not match what they're saying.
And I see the hypocrisy and I documented it, I show it and, and I've yet to be refuted
on it.
I've had a lot of people call me names or just try to ignore me, but I have not been
refuted on it because I'm using the Bible.
How can they, how can they argue the Bible?
And so I appreciate that.
It's, it's not like this is the best book.
I know you said that and I appreciate that, but surely there are better books to be written
on the subject.
And I appreciate you taking the time to let folks know about it and I hope the work gets
it's out there.
Yeah.
I mean, there's, there's not though, any better book on the subject.
Unfortunately, there's only a few books that I know of, maybe I'm wrong.
That's even talked about the subject.
I do wish more books were written about this because you know, there is people who love
to read and, and for me, I, I, I read your book and it's, what's great about books and
not interviews because interviews, you kind of are all over the place and you talk about
different things in a book, it's, you really lay out your opinion on things and you lay
it out in clear, concise way to eventually, you know, hopefully change their mind about
the topics.
And so that's why I think the books are so great and you know, what's great about this
book is you show kind of the summary of, you know, where pre-trib came from and you show
that, you know, the different people who have been real instrumental in, in promoting this
pre-tribulation fraud and, you know, Cyrus Schofield is one of the main guys that has
really done a disservice to Christianity.
Can you tell us a little bit about Cyrus Schofield, a little bit about his background?
Yeah.
So, um, you know, when I was a kid and probably you too, Paul, uh, in Baptist churches, I
would sometimes hear a preacher say, turn in your Bibles to Matthew chapter four.
And if you've got the right kind of Bible, it's on page 536, you know, and they're ha
ha ha.
They're talking about the Schofield reference Bible.
Right.
Um, I, I did not have a Schofield reference Bible, uh, but what I did have was a surrounding
of people who were influenced by it.
And a lot of times people don't even realize how much they're influenced by it.
But, um, I started studying and looking into Schofield, you know, 10 years ago, and I wrote
that first book, who is Israel?
And I really showed some of the things about him.
And I found several sources about Schofield, uh, that, you know, the guy had some serious
problems.
And amazing thing was he was never a Baptist and he was not even loyal to the King James.
I mean, in the introduction to the Schofield reference Bible, I think it's point number
nine, he said that he only used the King James a hundred years ago because it was the
most popular English version in America.
Uh, but he also said that he corrected the minor issues, the minor problems, he corrected
it with the Alexandrian text and the Tischendorf, uh, uh, and, and company text Westcott horse.
So, so right there, introduction number point, number nine, he admits that he's not King
James and that he's using the modern versions and the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts to
correct the Bible.
And he does.
And especially in the area of Israel or in the area of the pre-trip, and he's changing
things on purpose.
And then, uh, re-subdividing titles, adding new sub points into the chapters that the
King James translators never put in there, uh, translators put pill pros in the chapters,
but he went ahead and re subdivided the chapters.
And that also is a brainwashing technique that people don't realize.
And so I've had several people say, well, I'm not a school field follower.
I don't own a school field Bible, maybe not, but your teacher or your pastor, uh, has been
taught from that very viewpoint that that dispensational viewpoint, what people don't
understand is Americans, Christians in America, a hundred years ago, they were very much against
the idea of adding to the word of God.
I mean, when, when the Mormon book of Mormon came out, of course, you know, well, that's
a different translation.
That's a different Bible.
That's a different book.
I don't do that.
Uh, but what, what the trap is with American Christians is they allowed someone to actually
add to the word of God, right in the word of God with a study Bible with notes at the
bottom.
And so there's this, there's little footnotes that say, here's what this really means.
And here's what that really means.
For instance, when it says Abraham and his seed, it always said seed singular, but the
Schofield notes, they descendants plural, that's just one example.
Or second Thessalonians chapter two, when it says day of Christ, Schofield says, this
would have been better translated day of the Lord.
It's a mistranslation.
He says, well, he's getting that straight out of the Alexandrian texts, the TR, the
Texas Receptus says Christos, uh, the Alexandrian says Kira.
So he's, he's claiming that the King James is wrong in certain spots and a better manuscripts
or older manuscripts say it differently.
He says in his notes.
And it's amazing how the church has allowed that.
And the Southern Bible belt is full of Schofieldites and Schofield Bible users.
And uh, and they'll tell you they're King James only, but they're, they're hypocrites
because they're really Schofield King James.
And when, when you say it that way, honestly, you can buy a Schofield Bible in several different
versions.
Now you can buy it in the, in the new modern versions, modern translations.
So those notes say the same, the Schofield notes stay the same, but the Bible's negotiable.
That's crazy.
You know, uh, but that's how ingrained the doctrine is versus the word of God.
And that's what we find today is a lot of people know doctrine that has been taught
to them by man, then they'll know the actual words of God.
There's nothing wrong with the King James Bible.
There's an attack on the King James Bible right now.
And the reason why it's, it's happening is because a lot of preachers, teachers are saying
stupid things that can't be backed up by the Bible.
So therefore it makes the word of God look bad.
It's not the Bible that's the problem.
It's the teachers are trying to teach something.
They can't back up with solid scripture.
And when I see that as a, as a, as a young man, and even now I say, hold it, we're not
going to do that.
We're not going to follow tradition over Bible.
And there's some traditions that might be good traditions, but if they're going against
the word of God and opposite of the word of God, we're throwing out the tradition and
sticking with the Bible.
So I'm hoping that what I do is kind of blazing the trail, pioneering for future, uh, preachers
and Christians to follow and to just dig in and say, wait a minute, I'm going to find
out what God's word says.
And I do think unfortunately it takes someone like a pastor, like myself or someone to say,
hold it and blow the whistle and, and write a book and document things for people to finally
sit up and wake up.
And I know I'm not the only one as a young Baptist Christian that said to myself, I don't
get the pre-trip doctrine.
I don't understand it.
It doesn't make sense.
It's like, they got a cherry to pick this verse and jump from this passage over to this
passage and I don't understand it.
I think a lot of people out there in churches right now are like, I'm confused when it comes
to the end times of the book of revelation.
And it doesn't need to be that confusing, but what makes it so confusing is when you
get a false teaching that messes everything up in your head.
And so I just hope that for my own sons, grandsons, that they can, can take it from a different
angle and not get warped and brainwashed to begin with, and then have a better understanding
because as we move forward, the end times are accelerating.
I mean, we're seeing crazy things happen in our world right now.
And we have got to know what the truth is because otherwise we're just going to be fooled
and led like a blind sheep to the slaughter.
Right and I remember when we interviewed you for our film, Marching to Zion.
You talked a lot about Schofield and that was one of the main reasons that we interviewed
you for that film is your knowledge on Schofield because we knew you had done a lot of research
and it's something that you talk about in the book as well as some of the background
of C.I.
Schofield.
And you know, C.I.
Schofield was caught doing forgeries and and can you talk a little bit about his criminal
background?
Well, he was a lawyer and he was a shyster.
He was in jail, supposedly he got saved, I think, while he was in jail at St. Louis.
He deserted his wife and his children.
And a lot of that gets swept under the rug or excused because, well, he wasn't saved
or he got right with God, blah, blah, blah.
Like I say, he was never Baptist.
He ended up as a congregational pastor in Texas.
And within months of his divorce, he married another woman in that church in in Texas and
just kept running and going.
Meanwhile, back in Kansas, where he was from Kansas or Kansas City, Missouri, I can't remember
which side of the line it was on, but Kansas City somewhere they wrote.
There's a newspaper article.
I think I have it in my book here where basically when Schofield when he died, they said the
scoundrels dead or something like that.
And yeah, there you go.
And they they they excoriated Schofield and they that his local hometown paper, they they
excoriated him as a shyster.
And you know, I to this day, I'll just say it.
If Schofield's not in heaven, I'm not surprised.
The man was a fraud in my in my opinion.
Now, that doesn't mean I know that for sure he's the hell I'm just saying it wouldn't
be I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't truly born again, because the guy was he was unfaithful
even to his children after the divorce.
He didn't he didn't take care of them.
But we know he died wealthy.
I mean, the Schofield Bible took off.
You know, he made money on it.
And yet his children never saw that his ex wife and all that gets swept in the rug.
And I don't know how especially some of the more extreme right of our movement can swallow
that and accept that this divorce and remarriage thing, I mean, that's just wrong.
And I'm totally against it.
And and yet it's interesting.
It's interesting.
His background, D.L. Moody was caught up into that with him.
I think I'm not mistaken, Moody.
I think Schofield spoke at Moody's funeral, if I'm not mistaken.
But again, Moody wasn't Baptist.
And and so how the Baptist ended up taking Schofield as their own, I don't know.
Maybe it's because in 1947 or 48, his notes look prophetic when Israel suddenly became
a nation and it was, quote unquote, reborn.
And maybe that's why he all of a sudden looks so prophetic.
But I personally believe that Satan used Schofield and used the Schofield reference Bible to
really pervert and twist and water down the word of God and to change doctrine in good
Bible believing churches and to the point now where we said earlier, you're you're just
blackballed as a heretic if you question anything dispensational.
And so, you know, a job well done by Satan and and using Schofield and others.
But yeah, the man had some interesting ties.
He had interesting ties with Zionists.
He had interesting connections with different individuals.
And I talked about that in the first book and a little bit in the second book.
What amazes me is like Sam Gipp or David Grady, no, excuse me, Bill Grady or Peter
Ruckman and how much they were pro Schofield.
And yet, as I said earlier, introduction number nine, he wasn't even King James.
And we know that I know for a fact, Gipp and Grady, they used a Schofield Bible.
And I think they still do.
And that introduction number nine in their own Schofield Bible says that he favored the
Alexandria text in certain passages and corrected the King James with those newer manuscripts
that were recently found in the 1800s.
And so to me, that's hypocrisy right there.
And I'm just blown away by people who get mad at me for pointing out what the Bible
actually says versus what Schofield wants us to think it says, as if Schofield was some
kind of an inspired person.
I never forget.
I actually sat in a pastor's oriented, excuse me, ordination.
He was being ordained and somebody in the back of the room stood up and asked if he
thought that Schofield's notes were inspired.
I don't know if the man was joking or if he was serious, he sounded serious.
I just, I couldn't believe it.
What a question.
Uh, but yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of people who treat Mr. Schofield as if he
was inspired and, uh, and they get really upset when you point out the fraudulent things
about it.
Right.
Well, we know he was, um, you know, not, not the best guy based on his own writings.
I mean, just prior to the release of, uh, his Schofield Bible, uh, Schofield writes
in a letter to his daughter, Helen, in which he states, when I get rich, I'm going to have
three homes, one in winter apartment on Washington Heights, New York city, one in Crestwood,
Crestwood, one at, uh, Sorrento, Italy.
And uh, you know, it, it was, uh, more than likely about the money for him and, uh, he,
you know, where did he get his money?
Do we even know?
Yeah.
I, I questioned that, you know, there was something called the Lotus.
I wrote that in the first book.
He somehow was a member of this Lotus club and I think it's New York city.
And you had to be a, somebody to be a member of the Lotus club.
And he was a nobody.
He hadn't even produced his Schofield reference Bible at the time.
He was literally a nobody, but somehow he got into this Lotus club.
And I think that's where the Zionist got ahold of him or he got ahold of them and, uh, and
a deal was made and, and, and who knows who really wrote everything in the Schofield reference
Bible, but all of a sudden, uh, Oxford university press was willing and ready to print the Bible
that is his reference Bible.
And all of a sudden he was a success.
Um, so you got to wonder, and, um, those are things that I mentioned more in the first
book than in this latest book, but yeah, there's some, there's some questionable ties to that.
And, uh, his, his emphasis on money and materialism is there for sure.
And, uh, his, his lack of, uh, really supporting his own family, um, and the fact that he even
had two wives, a divorced wife and a new wife, it was, you know, that kind of stuff.
It's just amazing to me how many people still look up to it.
Right.
And I, I don't think a lot of people even know that he had two wives and stuff and they
treat them like a God-like figure in a fundamental circle circles.
And, and, but, um, now people are, you know, they're kind of pushing back and saying, well,
we don't know.
We don't, we don't really follow Schofield.
You do.
You just don't realize you do at this point, guys, my age, they don't realize how much
Schofield ism they have in their thinking, in their, in their logic, in their doctrine.
They just think it's Bible doctrine.
They don't realize that they're teachers of professors and pastors, you know, and whoever
it trickles back to him.
And that's where it came from.
And I always say, it was a great, great move on Satan's part to introduce into the actual
King James Bible, these notes and this new doctrine with subtitles, it was a great move.
It was the Trojan horse and it worked well.
Well, I agreed a hundred percent on your book up till chapter three, and then that's kind
of where it, it got crazy for me.
And you know, it actually made me excited about this topic again.
You know, I worked really hard on this film after the tribulation back in 2012, and this
is from 2012 to like 2015.
You know, all I did is research on the post-trib pre-wrath rapture, and I did a lot of different
videos on, on that subject.
But when I read this book and I got to chapter three and I finished it, it like my mind exploded
by it.
Cause I just never thought of this before.
And you know, once you really, and once you understand what you're trying to present here
in chapter three, it really just changes your whole outlook on these famous passages that
we've all read a million times.
Tell us a little bit about how you came to that conclusion and your thoughts about all
that.
So probably pastor Williams, who's now in heaven, he died a year ago.
Probably he deserves the credit.
I always attribute things to him at both my books.
I have him in the front of the book as the dedication.
I think it was him.
And he was a great man.
I mean, he, he's the only pastor I had that would stand up in church and say, does anyone
have a Bible question about anything?
I mean, I, I've sat under pastors who were college presidents, Bible college presidents
who never would do that, but he would stand flat-footed in front of the congregation and
asked if anyone had a Bible question, you could ask anything you want.
And the amazing thing was he usually could answer off the top of his head.
And so I had a lot of respect for him and his knowledge of the Bible.
Even people who don't like him very well will tell you that, you know, he definitely marches
to the beat of a different drum.
His knowledge of the word of God and the way he thinks.
And so when he talked about Daniel chapter nine in a different way, when you get to the
70th week and you, and you talk about, uh, the abominations will cease and, uh, and,
and how that, uh, you know, three and a half, three and a half years or the midst of the
week, uh, that, that all of a sudden opens up a whole new way of thinking.
And, and you realize, wait a minute, uh, I've been thinking of this all wrong because someone
told me to think this all wrong.
And uh, and so I'll just read it real quick.
Um, it says, uh, verse 27, he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in
the midst of the week, he shall cause the sacrifices sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
And we've always been told that that's the Antichrist and that this is future.
But you know, the truth is, and when you realize it and study it out, he is the same person
as 26, the Messiah, the Prince, capital P the Prince.
And, uh, back there in verse 25, Messiah, the Prince is the same Prince as verse 26.
And people will say, well, but verse 26 has a small letter P for Prince verse 25 as a
capital letter P for Prince.
Well, first of all, that doesn't change the subject matter.
Secondly, the original 1611 has both princes capitalized.
So if you're a King James only guy, you got a problem there.
I don't, but you do.
If you're pre trip and, and so then you realize, okay, if this is Christ, he shall confirm
the covenant with many for one week.
And in the midst of the week, he shall cause the sacrifices and oblations to cease.
Well, what did Jesus do three and a half years in what, what happened three and a half years
after Jesus has ministry began, he died on the cross.
Well, what did that do?
It caused the sacrifices and oblations to cease.
At that point, the veil was ripped in the temple from top to bottom.
At that point, you no longer see the Bible endorsing animal sacrifices.
Why?
Because he's the lamb and behold the lamb, uh, the take of the way of the sin of the
world.
This is Christ.
This is, this is the confirmation.
Of course, he's confirming the fact of salvation, that he is the Messiah and that confirmation
was going on through that time.
And so that midst of the week is his death on the cross.
I think the last three and a half years, which is debatable and I'm okay with people debating
it and thinking of it differently, pastor Williams thought that maybe that was a pause
after the crucifixion and that the last three and a half years connect with the three and
a half years you see in revelation, that's certainly plausible or possible.
Um, others think that, uh, the three and a half years continued on into the book of acts
and, and, uh, you see the great revival of Jews getting saved there in the first part
of the book of acts.
And then you see it kind of tailing off and, and the three and a half years pretty much
ceased, uh, maybe, uh, with the Stony of Steven possibly.
And I think either one of those are fine because both of them are not pre-trib they're into
a post-trib theory theory there.
So really like your, you showed that page of the, of chapter three, that, that pyramid
that I made there, where it's the watershed issue.
You either understand Daniel chapter nine to be all about Christ, or you have the antichrist
in the last couple of verses of Daniel chapter nine.
And, uh, that's wrong.
Uh, yeah, there you go.
Daniel chapter nine is not at all about the antichrist.
As a matter of fact, I went to Tori's topical textbook and I went to Nave's topical textbook
and I look up antichrist.
I can't find one reference to Daniel chapter nine for antichrist in either one of those
topical textbooks.
I went to Halley's Bible handbook, which was written over a hundred years ago.
Halley's Bible handbook tells you exactly what I just told you that Jesus is the one
that confirms the covenant.
And in the midst of the week, he's the one that causes the sacrifices and oblations to cease.
Then I went to Usher's, uh, chronology of world history.
And I found that he also thought of it and understood it to be that way.
I even found an old book of John R. Rice that referred to Jesus as the covenant confirmer
in Daniel chapter nine, verse 27.
And then I went to, I think it was John Wesley's notes and the Geneva Bible notes.
And I went to all these older commentaries, older than Schofield, older than the 1800s.
And I thought, yeah, I find out Matthew Henry and I found all these different ones and they're
all saying the same thing.
They might've had a slight different viewpoint on it, but they all recognize that Jesus was
the covenant confirmer and that it was the cross and the veil ripped in the temple, the
sacrifices that oblation sees, Hey man, we know that's true.
We know that's true.
I mean, animal sacrifices are wrong today.
Why?
Christ died on the cross.
Animal sacrifices were no more necessary.
And so it's, it fits so well, and it made much more sense and it opens up so much more
of a word of God that that was totally confusing beforehand.
And so I would encourage people to read and digest that.
And if you come up with a slight different opinion, slightly different opinion, I don't
know.
I'm okay with that, but I think, I think this is the major watershed issue, and this is
what really destroys the pre-trib theology and the pre-trib viewpoint.
And pastor Williams years ago, testified that he had a friend that challenged him on that.
And when he realized that, that that is the case, it just blew his mind and it changed
everything about how he thought about all of it.
And I realized that there are post-millennialists or preterists out there that help hold similar
viewpoint, but that doesn't change the fact that it is true.
We don't necessarily agree with all of them and their theology and everything detail,
but there's a lot of truth to what they say about Daniel chapter nine, and it's not wrong.
They're not wrong about it.
A great man, Philip Morrow, who was part of the fundamentals.
He wrote three different chapters.
He was a lawyer as well.
He was a contemporary of Schofield.
Morrow might not have been, you know, pre-millennialist thinking, but the man was, was very wise
in a lot of the scripture.
And I, I appreciate a lot of what he has to say.
I can't say I agree with everything, but he writes some great stuff about Daniel chapter
nine and the connection there.
Then there's an old Baptist, BH Carroll.
I think what Mako, Texas, the Southern Baptist school there.
I think that what's the name of that school anyway, Baylor Baylor.
I think he was the one who was the president or founder of that place.
And his brother is J M Carroll, the man who wrote trail of T or trail of blood, the Baptist
history, J M Carroll, BH Carroll.
He also recognized the same thing that I'm telling you about Daniel chapter nine and
Jesus being the covenant confirmer.
So yeah, there's, there's credible sources out there.
It's not just Matt first coming up with a brand new idea.
This is old stuff.
And so I think that's what you mean, Paul, when you say it blew your mind because it
wasn't really Matt first convinced you.
It's just all the documentation of, of, you know, commentaries and men of old that we
never hear about anymore because you only hear the other slant, that there's this future
70th week and that God stopped the time clock at 69 of the 69th week.
And that the anti-Christ is going to come on the scene and he's going to make a treaty
for three and a half years.
Then he's going to break the treaty in the midst of the week and cause the sacrifices
and oblations, which is a bunch of baloney when you think about it, because God would
never ordain animal sacrifices.
And so the first three and a half years, can't be a good thing.
The idea of rebuilding a temple and starting animal sacrifices, that can't be, that can't,
that doesn't fit that that's that by itself as anti-Christ to go back to animal sacrifices
after Christ has the, as the, the one sacrifice for sin forever, uh, to go back, that's going
back to perdition as Hebrews talks about.
So it's impossible for that to line up with scripture.
And so, yeah, when you, when you realize you've been putting the glove on backwards and you
flip the thing around, you realize, Whoa, this is how it fits.
It's amazing.
It just blows your mind how, how you didn't see it earlier.
Right.
I know it did me this morning when I was reading this, I was just like, what is happening right
now?
Cause it really did shift.
Yeah.
Amen.
But what, what do you say to those who are, um, who say to you, what are you, are you
calling Jesus the anti-Christ or, you know, what do you say to those people?
Well, I mean, that's just a smart aleck retort because of course not, they're calling Jesus
the anti-Christ.
Right.
I mean, they're the ones that are calling him the antichrist.
I mean, like pastor Williams said, you can't get any more serious than this.
You got your, you got one group of people interpreting the Bible as if that's the anti-Christ
you've got the other group of people interpreting the Bible as if that's Christ, you can't get
more serious than that.
Uh, and, and so this is really an antichrist doctrine, uh, in more ways than one.
And um, they don't want to hear it.
I mean, I mean, if you were a Bible college professor, the last thing you want to be told
is you've been teaching antichrist material, uh, but it's true, uh, they're, they're wrong
and they don't want to admit it.
And some country bumpkin in South Dakota can't possibly be right.
And that's why I documented it with all these other commentaries I mentioned because there
was respected names from two, three, 400 years ago and beyond.
They did not think this way and, uh, they did not ever perceive this passage as being
antichrist.
And again, 1611, look it up, 1611 King James, the Prince has capitalized throughout that
passage.
All right.
Uh, and so there's problem for, for them.
There's a problem for them because they, some of them have said, and I quoted one of them
in the book that the capitalized Prince is obviously Jesus, but then the next Prince
is small piece.
So therefore that's the antichrist.
You got to throw that out the window.
If the 1611 had a capital P I've written Cambridge and I've written different people trying to
find out why was it changed to a small P it doesn't bother me because capitalization was
not in the original translation in the original text.
And it doesn't bother me because, because it still flows either way.
I don't have to have the capitalized P for it to still read correctly, but they have
to have it that way.
Uh, they have to have the small P, uh, because otherwise, uh, that it all falls apart.
So when you realize that they've been swallowing this concept of an antichrist and, uh, Schofield's
notes are all about this.
Um, I mean, this was probably one of the greatest promoters of this, of this false concept of
a future 70th week and the antichrist being the hero and the climax of the story.
That's that should never be Christ is the hero, not the antichrist.
And yet the end of Daniel chapter nine, it's all about the antichrist.
That's just, it's wrong.
And there's even other, even the Spanish bear Bible has notes that points back to the fact
that it's Jesus, you know, when it says he'll, he'll cause, uh, the sacrifice and oblations
to the cease can confirm the covenant with many for one week.
That ties to Matthew where he confirms, uh, the covenant with many, uh, in the, in the
last supper.
Uh, and, and that's, that's what it's all about.
It's all about the salvation, the covenant of salvation.
It's all about that.
Christ fulfills those passages from verse 24 to 27.
He fulfills it so perfectly.
And it's real easy when you just take the blinders off and see what, what the Bible
actually says and not read it with the Schofield grid in mind or a dispensational grid in mind.
So yeah, it's great stuff and I enjoyed writing it as much as, uh, people enjoy reading it.
I think it's, it's exciting for me.
I I'm not the one to invent it or even discover it.
I'm just kind of, you know, blowing the whistle and showing people, Hey, look, you know, kind
of like King Josiah said, Hey, you know what?
The Bible has been here all along.
We just forgot about it.
You know, we forgot to, to consult the Bible because we're, we're so expert now, uh, let's
go back and see what the Bible says.
And, uh, you know, the Bible makes a lot of, a lot of clarity of, of all these commentaries,
but we get so professional at commentaries and notes that we forget to just read what
God's word says.
Well, you clearly done your research.
Uh, I mean, in the book you show quote after quote after quote from pretty much everyone
that preaches on the end times on this subject and, uh, you really lay it out in a great
way.
Um, what kind of pushback have you received from fellow post-tribbers, um, on this view?
Well, um, I think it's chapter seven.
There's a, there's a meme in there with, uh, I think it was Jordan Peterson in the picture,
not that he said it or anything, but it just shows this picture and it says something like,
uh, uh, so you're not pre-trip.
No, I'm not.
Well then why do you hate Jews?
You know, it's like, Oh wow, that's quite a, that's quite a jump of conclusion.
And, and I do think that, that you, you are called antisemitic, uh, if you're not pre-trip,
um, and I do think that, uh, you know, you're, you're obviously evil in your doctrinal position,
blah, blah, blah.
Um, we have a young man in our church that was dating a girl and, uh, they weren't engaged,
but they were kind of serious.
And, um, and she finally said, well, I don't want to marry you.
And if I'm going to have to live in Custer, South Dakota, and go to your church and have
to listen to your pastor, all because of just this issue, I don't think she got that all
by herself.
I think probably some people pressured her into that, uh, and, and I've not had a lot
of direct public, um, argumentation going on, but just slander and just kind of eye
rolling and, and, uh, you know, kind of behind the scenes, I hear, you know, what people
said third-party, um, and they just, I think they're just hoping I'll go away and that
because I'm just a country bump, get out, out here in the middle of nowhere, that probably
I'll just go away and I'll be a, I'll be a nobody.
Uh, but the thing is, is that, um, I, I don't have to be the one to champion this.
I just want the truth to get out.
And it really doesn't matter if I die, uh, looking like an idiot, as long as I start
to cause people to think, and that's what my pastor did.
Um, my pastor had enough respectability.
There were people who respected him enough for people to say, you know what, I need to
understand this better.
Um, and I heard one preacher say, how could a man be so right about everything else and
so wrong on this one issue?
And so what I, what I want people to do is, is to, is to just think the same thing is,
you know, pastor first, he seems to have a good family.
He seems to have a, uh, Bible believing church that has people getting saved and baptized
and added to the church.
And, uh, there seems to be a lot of stuff there that doesn't sound crazy and heretical.
So maybe we should rethink this other issue that he's so adamant about being right.
Uh, and, and, and biblical, and I'm just hoping that that's what comes through.
Sorry, this phone keeps ringing.
Uh, but, uh, somebody is persistent.
They want to talk to me.
Um, but anyhow, uh, I, I hope, I hope that people just find the truth.
It doesn't have to be me.
I don't have to be the one that, that helped them find it.
But I know I sleep well at night.
God, God knows.
Um, and people will say, well, you got to bless Israel in order to be blessed.
And your theology doesn't bless Israel.
Well, you know, that's a whole nother subject.
But the point is this, you know, I have been blessed.
I don't deserve one more blessing right now.
I have been way, way more blessed than I deserve.
God's been good to us.
And, uh, it's not true.
That's not true.
You know, God's protected us.
He's blessed us and, uh, God, God is, has shown his favor and I, I've
received great reports and reviews.
Somebody, Paul, somebody bought, found this book in a doctor's
office a couple of months ago.
It was sitting in a waiting room in a doctor's office.
He was waiting for his wife in the doctor's room.
And he, he saw this book.
He's a preacher from Georgia and he was blown away.
He took it home.
He read the whole thing.
He called me and said, and told me where he found it, which was amazing by
itself in Georgia and the doctor's office.
And then he ordered a bunch more copies to give out to his friends and stories
like that just make me smile, you know, because I think God orchestrated that.
And then there are other people and other channels, people that they're
not even, um, going to church because they've given up on, on a church
that they think treat teaches truth.
And my encouragement is, Hey, you can go to find a good church and
maybe they're not post trip.
Maybe they're pre trip, but if they're not staunch about it and they're not
pushing dispensationalism, you can still hear good word, good preaching
from, from those churches don't give up on church, uh, and, and, and on the
other hand, if you go there, don't try to argue with the pastor, but just
show them and, and, and pray for them and maybe suggest that they read
this, but not push it on them.
And one old man, 85 year old guy, he likes to listen to me and orders my,
my CDs, sermon CDs, but he told me recently he finally found a good church
and I think it's South Carolina.
And he has to drive about 80 miles to get there, but he's excited because he
finally found a country preacher.
That's never taught dispensational stuff, never believed it.
And he's excited.
I'm excited for him because I think they're out there.
I just think that we don't hear about them very much.
Uh, because first of all, if you're not dispensational pre trip, would
you want to tell people, I mean, you're just going to be shamed for it.
So I can see where a lot of pastors are kind of just quiet about it.
But on the other hand, I do feel like if I can be public about it, it will
give them more encouragement and give them maybe some more courage to stand
for truth and do the right thing and, uh, and stand up and, and I think
there's a lot more of us out there.
I think there's, you know, like the Bible says over 7,000, they have bowed the knee.
I think there's a lot of us out there.
Uh, but yeah, I've, I've, I've gotten, I've gotten, uh, bad treatment, I guess.
And I don't feel persecuted, but I've gotten disrespect.
Uh, and I'm kind of mouthy, you know, I'm opinionated.
So some of it I bring on myself, but there's disrespect there, you
know, uh, and that's is the way it is.
You know, my Alma mater, they, my Bible college, they they've had just
about everybody they can find, uh, to come preach in their chapel and preach
for them, but they don't want Matt first cup and it's not because my church is
bad or my family's bad, or it's just because of my eschatology and, and
because if you're a Bible college, you're kind of in a political hotspot
and they're trying to get students to come and they got to please all the
other pastors and so they can't have the crazy Matt first cup, because if
he comes, they're just, they're going to hear it from, from the other
pastors and that's just a fact.
So, and unfortunately in all of that, somehow they still call
themselves independent, right?
Uh, but truly if you're independent, it doesn't matter what everybody else thinks.
It just matters what God thinks.
And so if I'm going to call myself independent, then I need to not
worry about the criticism and that's kind of where I'm at.
Right.
Well, I, I do encourage those that are listening that do not agree with this
subject, um, to get a copy of the book and read it because, uh, you know,
talking about it on this stream or maybe some other streams is good.
And it definitely gives you some insight on the subject, but, you know,
reading it, how it's presented and, uh, laid out, I think is just, it's a
great way to really understand what you mean, because you know, I've heard
that you believe this way for a long time now, but I, I dismissed it, not
knowing kind of what you believed.
And so I think it's important for people to, um, read it and understand
the, the belief, and then if you, you disagree, then you disagree and
we can still be friends, you know, I think a lot of people are just, if
you're not a hundred percent on board, you're like, you're a heretic.
He can't talk.
It's like, but it's so, it's so weird.
It's funny how even pre-trippers don't agree with each other.
Right.
I mean, there's a lot of pre-trip that, that doesn't line up with each other.
Uh, and so the post-trippers don't need to worry about whether or
not we agree on every detail.
I just think that, that when you realize Daniel nine is ending with
Jesus and not Antichrist, it really helps everything else to fit a whole
lot more clearly and, and just without having to pound a square peg in a
round hole, uh, it just really flows in.
And I know there are guys a lot smarter than me once they get
converted to this understanding, they're going to be way better
at even explaining it than I can, but they've got to get converted to it.
First.
Um, there's a lot more, uh, a lot of guys with more, a lot of guys with more brains
and intelligence than me, uh, that can explain this, I'm just, I guess, dumb
enough to publicly say it and say, Hey, here's, here's what I believe.
Uh, and, uh, my pastor said, well, if you're going to follow this and
really believe this, and you're going to declare it, you better watch out.
And I thought, surely not, you know, I'm just going to show from the
King James Bible, what I believe.
And because everybody's King James, they're going to say, oh yeah,
that's the way it should be.
Huh?
Wow.
I mean, just, just this month, there's a huge argument about whether
the King James is really the Bible.
I I'm just, I'm blown away that the King James isn't the final
authority in our Baptist churches.
I thought that was a settled issue.
So it's no surprise to me that my book isn't well received because there's a
whole bunch of people out there and churches calling themselves independent
Baptist that don't even really think the King James Bible is the word of God.
So they're certainly not going to read a book based on the idea that the
King James Bible is the word of God.
So what a wake up call.
I guess I had, I just was naive to believe that everybody was sincere.
Like I was concerning God's word.
And I've said many times, if you can prove that the King James
Bible is not accurate, then I quit.
I'm going to go get a job at Walmart, do something else.
I'm not going to do this, but I don't believe that they can convince me of that.
And so here I am still preaching and praise God for the truth tellers and
the truth seekers, because they're coming out of the woodwork and appreciate your.
Appreciate your talents, Paul.
Appreciate your venue.
I appreciate you and others like you that are doing this.
I appreciate you reading the book because now you
understand where I'm coming from.
It's not just crazy, man.
So thank you.
Appreciate you reading that.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Um, any final thoughts before we let you go?
Um, yeah, I mean, I just want to say that we support 40 missionaries.
We support a missionary in Israel.
We keep his name anonymous cause, uh, he's in Israel.
Um, we support missionaries all over the globe and not one of our
missionaries are told that they have to believe my eschatology, that
they have to be post trip, not one of them are helped that I don't believe
eschatology is supposed to be a dividing issue a hundred years ago or so.
BH Carroll said that eschatology was not a dividing issue, but it is today.
Good grief.
If you're anything other than pre trip, you might as well forget it.
You can be liberal in a lot of things, including the Bible itself.
But as long as you're pre trip, you'll get along fine with a lot of circles.
Uh, and so there's, there's a real change in the way people think.
And I do think it's part of the apostasy in the last days.
Um, but on the other hand, let me just say for me, it
really is not a dividing issue.
Um, if, if they're radical dispensations, we're not going to support them.
But our number one goal is that they are preaching the gospel to every preacher,
that they're, that they're doing the great commission and these
side issues are just side issues.
Uh, I do think it's a big deal.
It's important, but it is compared to the gospel, a side issue.
And so I know for a fact that I don't treat others the way
they're treating me on this subject.
Um, and I guess that's just the way it is, but, uh, I want you to know
that you don't have to agree with me and we don't even have it in our
church bylaws or constitution that our members have to agree with my
post-trib eschatology, uh, they don't, it's not a requirement even
to be a member of our church.
Of course, they're going to hear it taught preach, but it's not a requirement.
And so there's no hypocrisy in what I'm saying here.
Um, but on the other hand, I've had people call me and wouldn't even, you
know, when they found out I wasn't pre-trib, they wouldn't even come
on vacation to visit our church.
You talk about silly, but, um, I want to encourage those listening to us
that aren't going to church anywhere.
If you can find a godly Bible believing pastor preacher, even if he doesn't fully
understand what we're talking about today, give them a chance, you know,
and maybe your testimony and your sweet spirit gracious attitude
will help them to come around.
Uh, and if you're belligerent and ugly and unkind and, and, and backstabbing,
you're not going to help this cause at all, even if you are quote unquote
reg concerning your eschatology.
So be careful and be aware that it takes years for some people to come around.
It takes years for a guy who's been taught thinking one way to finally come
around to think a different way on these issues and so live an example.
If you want someone to change and be patient with people and pray for that.
But you know what, Paul, as, as time marches on and as our world gets more
and more crazy and we become more globalist in our world, I think more
people are starting to wonder if pre-trib is right.
And so I think time's on our side because as time marches on,
it's going to get more nuts.
There's, there's people out there that are already shocked that
the rapture hasn't happened yet.
And as time marches on, they're going to get more shocked.
And so let's just quietly, but firmly explain to people, Hey, we're not
trying to be ugly, but you know what you've been lied to and, uh, it's not
tomorrow, uh, it's not any day now, like they say, you know, any moment now.
And, uh, uh, there's, there's things that are going to come beforehand.
There's going to be some tribulation ahead, but don't worry.
God's still in charge, but read your Bible, stop reading the other books
and just read the word of God.
That's what I'd have to say.
Well, amen.
Thank you so much, pastor for coming on the program.
And for those of you who have not read this book, again, I encourage you go
to framing the world.com, get a copy, which one is right by Matt first and
another book he's written who is Israel is also available at framing the world.com.
Thanks so much pastor for coming on the program.
I hope you have a good day.
God bless.
Thanks Paul.
All right.
Well, that was pastor Matt first on the program.
I appreciate everyone tuning into framing the world live.
I do plan on putting out a bunch of videos here over the next couple of weeks.
So if, uh, you are a supporter of ours on rock fin, I appreciate you.
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And, uh, who is Israel at framing the world.com.
You can support us by getting a book over there, and you can also support
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It's an important film.
It's a film that I've wanted to make for years now.
And we were able to head to Israel and film, um, a large portion of the film.
We still have a little bit of pickups we need to do.
And then we have to edit the film.
And so I'm hoping we can raise some funds here and, uh, get this film
finished and get it off to the DVD makers and get this.
So I'm hoping, so I'm hoping we can get this film finished and out the door in
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Um, so I'm doing the best I can, working every day, trying to support
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So thank you guys for your support.
I hope you have a good day.
God bless.