program is intended for mature audiences. Parental discretion is advised.
Thanks everybody for joining us on The Baptist Bias. I'm your host, Pastor Shelley,
and we're going to be talking about spiritual warfare this evening.
A lot to talk about. Crazy week. The world is just on fire, Ben. What do you have to say?
Well, it seems like the United States is on a bobsled to hell, and unfortunately this week
there's been some spiritual warfare that has happened. But you know, whenever there's a
controversy, whenever something big is going on, I don't know about you, but I just get fired up,
and I'm fired up tonight. I'm ready to go. Let's talk about the topic at hand. Pastor Shelley,
he'll be leading the way. I'm ready. Not only is it literal spiritual warfare,
or I'm sorry, spiritual warfare, we have literal warfare. I think, can you pull up my screen? I
don't know if they had this. Iran. In Drudge Report, headlines, Holy Land War Zone, missile
attack on Israel, Iran military failure. How close are we to the election? I mean,
we've got to be super close to the election. Yeah, we're getting real close. I mean,
November 5th, right around the door. And we see some geopolitical activities going on.
Both candidates are super pro-Israel. Yes. No matter who wins, I don't think it affects this,
because I do believe Trump. There's a lot of things I like about him, but I do think one of
his biggest drawbacks is he is just as likely as Kamala to draw us into a war with Iran, potentially.
I mean, I don't even know that I believe that the elections are real. I think they probably already
know. I mean, they're not going to drum up a war with the uncertainty of the election screwing
that up. So they probably already know who's going to be selected. And I honestly, I don't even know
who's going to win. I think, I mean, what is your opinion? Do you think it is like for sure Kamala?
Do you think Trump has a chance? Like, what is your opinion on this?
I'm going to say Kamala steals the election and becomes the next president of these United States
of America. So we get a literal whore to lead us into the end times. We will have a whore leading
the whore of Babylon into the end times. Let's get the chat involved. Who thinks Trump or Kamala?
I'm just kind of curious. This is not who you're voting for, folks. This is who you think is going
to win the election. I'm not saying they would have won and got stolen. I'm saying who will be
selected, basically, in your opinion. I think if it was a fair election, Trump would for sure win.
Don't you? I 100% agree with that. I guess it's just how they want these things to go down.
I'm seeing a lot of Trump, actually. We see why Mrs. Trump. We've got ... Mrs. Trump?
J Bro Stooch is for Trump. It's tees all around. I mean, man, everybody thinks ... Oh no, somebody
said it was Kamala. Okay. Yeah, there we go. Well, the chat disagrees with us. That's all
right. I hope the chat is right, frankly speaking. I really do. I would like to see Trump win
over Kamala. There's another Kamala. Hey, here's the themed verse of our podcast.
I want to quote this before we move forward. Ephesians 6 verse 12, "For we wrestle not against
flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness
of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. And as Christians, that is the battle
we are called to engage in. The spiritual warfare, Pastor Shelley." And all of us, I think,
have felt just a little bit of that spiritual warfare, especially over the last few days.
Yeah. And, you know, I'm not really wanting to, you know, just name drop and just pick on people
or do things. But I think it'd be beneficial tonight to just kind of just take a second
and just kind of talk about what spiritual warfare looks like, what are things that happen in that.
And we might actually get really spicy on a couple of comments here. So parental discretion
advice. You know, we put it out there so you can't get mad at me. If you don't like talking about
sensitive topics, you should just go ahead and just hit the end. Just close it out. Just go watch
ladies knit sweaters or something like that, or watch kittens on TikTok or something. But you know,
if you actually want to talk about something real, if you're worried, if you're nervous,
you should just go ahead and click off right away. But we're going to talk about some difficult
subjects this evening. One thing I want to say... I want some heat on us. I want some heat. You know,
the heat's been on a lot of other people. Bring it to us tonight, all right? I want to say this.
I think that when it comes to talking about issues, people can have different opinions.
And it's okay to have different opinions. But I think that we should always try to be respectful,
even when we have a dissenting opinion or we're going to attack somebody. And especially someone
that's saved. If you think that someone's saved and has done something wrong, the Bible says to
restore such in one in the spirit of meekness. And of course, I think in the Bible, there's a
lot of precedent for treating pastors with respect and with care and with honor, especially ones that
have done you good, that have blessed you, that have helped you. And I've seen a lot of people
attacking pastors that have greatly blessed them. And they're not attacking them in a respectful
way. They're just, they're lashing out, they're believing all kinds of different accusations
against them. And to me, you know, I can see if I was going to have to call someone out
that I really care about, that I really love, or that I can understand that is in a difficult
position to say something with grace, to just say, you know what, I think this pastor has
an issue and I think they should address that. And I really appreciate them and love them.
And I'm sure this is really hard for them. You know, when someone says something like,
you know, everybody is just a bunch of Kool-Aid drinkers and this person has no character
and these people are a bunch of cult followers and blah, blah, blah. To me, it doesn't even
seem sincere at all. It doesn't seem like that person actually is being genuine about
the situation. And it seems like they're just, they're trying to provoke you. They're trying
to cause you to make some kind of a rash decision or get carnal or kind of like fight back or
something like that. And, you know, I fall victim of this just as much as the next guy.
But I think that, you know, we shouldn't allow people to just provoke us into making a decision
based on bullying us or intimidating us and be like, you're a coward. You know, you're,
you're weak and you're pathetic and you're a specter of persons and blah, blah, and just
like basically just trying to accuse you of being a bad person when you have to make difficult
decisions. Hey, oh, by the way, we're on air. Is the light not working? Oh, there we go.
We're on air, folks. Okay, there we go. We're officially on air because the sign, our audience
can't even see that. The sign was not on. That's what he was referring to, folks. But
I think that it makes sense to be pretty gracious and pretty kind to people even when you oppose
them or you differ with them. What do you think about this? Well, of course, and I think
people need to understand the art of agree to disagree. You're not going to turn every
single person who opposes the position you currently hold to your side. It's just not
going to happen. And there's been plenty of people that I've conversed with over the last
few days who disagree with me. I disagree with them, et cetera. But, you know, I still
love them and everything's fine. So I feel like there has to be a sense of understanding
that says, you know what, we're not going to see eye to eye on everything. But that
doesn't mean that the other person is evil or wicked or unsaved or something like that.
And I do think it's funny that we're often accused of this. Like, you have to be in
total lockstep with your pastor in the new IFB or else you're going to be declared unsaved,
reprobate, heretic, whatever. But that's not the case at all. And I think I've experienced
this. I've seen people literally walk up to Pastor Shelley right after he's done preaching
and tell him that they disagree with something. I've literally seen in other fellowship events,
people for like 30 minutes, 45 minutes, going back and forth with Pastor Shelley on a passage
of scripture that they disagree with his interpretation on. I've seen it happen, okay? So this idea
that you have to be 100% in alignment with the spiritual authority in new IFB churches
is not true. And yes, we should show respect to those who we disagree with, especially
pastors, and I would agree with that.
I mean, you know, of course, I see sometimes people will be gracious to people, but it's
like they're only gracious to one group of people or their people or something like that.
And I think, you know, we just have to essentially be kind to people that we don't even necessarily
agree with sometimes. I want to...
I will say that somebody in the chat room says, "I agree, but I still don't want to
be friends with idiots who think trannies and Absalom are bearing truth." Look, that's
fine. You should be friends with whoever you want to be friends with.
I didn't say being friends. The whole point is not being friends. It's just being respectful
of that person.
Be friends with whoever you want to be friends with.
Again, and I'm not saying be respectful to every person. Obviously, we need to call it
heretics and false prophets and weirdos and stuff like that. And sometimes we have to
reprove and rebuke. I'm just simply saying, if this is a person that you've actually cared
about, if this is a person that's done you good, if this is a person that's helped you
in many ways, and you have to approach them, it makes sense to be pretty gracious and pretty
respectful even when you have to make a difficult decision because otherwise it doesn't seem
sincere. It seems like you already had hatred in your heart. It seems like you already had
bitterness in your heart and you were waiting for an opportunity to attack them as opposed
to actually being sincere. And you know, I think that unfortunately a lot of people are
just kind of waiting for an opportunity to expose their hatred or their bitterness. And
so sometimes when things happen, they're not even really as mad about the situation. They're
just, they were just already mad and they were just kind of already bitter towards a
particular individual. And I think it's important as Christians that we're not harboring bitterness
towards individuals because then that turns into anger and wrath and, and it's really
just a work of the flesh. I think it's important, you know, that we don't have all this bitterness
so then when spiritual warfare happens, when we're in a battle, when we're in a fight,
when it's getting dirty, that we don't already have all this bitterness and anger and resentment
built up and then we just allow that to just unleash on people and, and really, you know,
sin because we shouldn't return railing for railing and evil for evil. We should do our
best to, even when someone smites his son the cheek, turn the other cheek, right Ben?
Yeah, the Bible says having compassion one of another and, and that's an important attribute
to have for sure, Pastor Shelley. We're going to feel slighted at times, but, you know,
at the end of the day, Jesus Christ did say, "Love your enemies."
I guess we're going to take call-ins, 231-Baptist, if you want to call. I'll be honest though,
I don't want to necessarily call any individual out, but if you want to ask questions about
certain situations or topics, I'm welcome or, you know, even doctrine, we're willing
to talk about that on this show. I saw there was other podcasts that people were doing
where they're just like bringing any guest on to just make any railing accusation they
could possibly make. Hey, you know, I think that's dishonorable and I'm not going to
participate in something like that and I'm not going to do that. So if, you know, people
want to just say horrible, evil things about people that are unsubstantiated, like I'm
not interested in something like that. But of course, if you'd like to call in, we'll
take your question. We'll do our best. 231Babdist, we really appreciate our, we really appreciate
our guests. And you know, I'm sure that there's some people in here watching the show that
hate me and hate our show and they don't. There's hate watchers. There's a, there's
a lot of people, you know, this is, this is what's so funny to me. There's certain pastors
that everybody claims like they want this person to step down or they hate him or whatever
and they're mad at him. But I think that it's actually the exact opposite. I think
they'd be so sad because they would, they would be like, they would have nothing to
do.
What are they going to do with their life?
They would have nothing to do with their life.
I mean, you spend all day, every day talking about one person, obsessing over one person,
hating on one person, and then that one person is gone.
They need this person for their life.
It's Trump derangement syndrome spiritual addition.
Yeah, exactly. And you know, admittedly, that person is a huge shield. Like, I don't think
that people realize that, you know, whoever's the tip of the spear physically, carnally,
spiritually, all these different things, they're just, they're just wielding all of these
tacks that just keep coming at them. And if they go, it's just whoever's the next tip
of the spear. They're not going to stop. And so in many cases, it's that person's actually
helping you a lot of times and you don't even realize it, you know? And I think like a lot
of people get mad at Steadfast Baptist Church or, you know, but I'm saying like, you know,
there's a lot of churches in this area that are probably not being attacked only because
we exist. And if we didn't exist, then these people would go and attack them. And our horde
of protesters that attacked us for years and years, they've attacked liberal churches.
They've attacked the nom churches and they've attacked all kinds of institutions. And so
it's not like we're the only church in the world that people hate or something or that
sodomites hate. They hate people that just even like the Bible, let alone someone that's
going to preach Leviticus 2013. And of course, again, friendly reminder, friendly reminder,
this is going to be a spicy show. We're going to talk about some uncomfortable things. And
if you don't want to hear it, please tune out. Don't listen. We don't want you to hear it.
You know, if you're going to get really offended about us talking about all kinds of things,
then just just go away. Hey, one thing that makes me mad. Can I say one thing very quickly?
Yes. 2019, there was a church split in steadfast Jacksonville. Yes, huge church split. It's
like 50/50 almost as maybe like 55/45. Is that fair? It was it was fair. What you're
saying is fair. You had mentioned earlier that people who already have kind of a resentment
are going to be predisposed to behave a certain way when something like this happens. And
I just want to mention that in 2019, what you said is what played out because those
who split off from our church to a man, every single one of them had already had bitterness
and hatred really for the new IFB movement. And so it was no coincidence that it was all
those people who then ended up splitting off and going with a defecting faction to go start
a different church. So I just wanted to back up your point there that I've seen that play
out myself in prior conflicts. So I want to say one thing, I'll be honest, something that's
just been boiling inside of me and making me really mad is all these women trying to
teach me what the Bible says online. And you know, it's just, it's like, is that what we
need in this world? Is the problem with the new IFB or is the problem with me or the problem
with pastors out there is we don't have enough women counselors. Like if we could just listen
to the women teach us what the Bible says, then we could finally, you know, overcome
the enemies and we could get right with God and we would finally do something right. I
mean, like, is that really the issue that we have is that we just don't have enough
women telling us all what to do and explaining to us what the Bible says? And look, if you're
already offended, you better click off of this broadcast. Like, you're gonna hate it. You're
gonna get super, super, super offended. I'm gonna go ahead and start the escalation process
that women shouldn't wear pants, they should wear dresses and skirts. So I just want to
make sure you're gonna get offended each statement that I make. So I'm just gonna make it clear.
Like, I believe the Bible teaches that women should not wear pants ever, that they should
wear dresses and skirts, and Deuteronomy 22 says that if a woman puts on a garment that's
a man's garment, she's an abomination. That's what the Bible says. Now it doesn't say skirt
or dress, it just says if a woman wears that which pertaineth unto a man, and in that same
passage it says that a man's skirt is his wife. So it uses a literal skirt to denote
a woman, and I believe that that is a pretty clear indication of what garment that we're
talking about. So if you don't like that, you can just go ahead and just click off,
tune off, women should not wear pants, shorts, they should wear dresses and skirts. Now of
course people say like what about leggings? Leggings are just underwear. Of course you
can wear them, not wear them, but you should wear them with a skirt over or a dress over.
And so that's not a valid argument that people would make. And I'm going to get spicier
as the show goes on. So just be really, really careful. I just want to make sure that, you
know, our sensitive ear audience is prepared and they can't accuse me of not warning them
multiple times. Okay? Yeah. I'll say, so here's my second. If you're not already tuned off,
seems like we keep growing in number. I'll also say this. I don't believe women should
vote. So, you know, I don't think that that makes sense. Historically, women didn't wear
pants and they didn't wear shorts. In fact, it was even illegal in many places in America
and they would be arrested. Not only that, without the amendments, it's the 19th Amendment,
women wouldn't even have the right to vote in America. And so, you know, if we keep rolling
back the clock in American history, we roll back a lot of feminism and I believe that feminism is
destroying our nation and that it's a satanic movement and agenda. Okay. So, you know, I just
want to keep rolling some of these things back and triggering you with what, in many places,
the Bible teaches from a principal perspective, but let alone was believed in historical society.
And, you know, people love America, but it's like, you have to realize why America was great
is because women weren't voting and is because women were dresses and skirts. That was the
American, everybody's like, oh, we want to go back to the 1950s. Oh, when women were not wearing
pants. Like, is that really what you want to go back to? And if we go back a little bit further,
you know, we'll realize that women weren't voting. And so I'm going to keep peeling back some of
these things. And of course, it's going to trigger a lot of people. I'll also say this, women should
never teach the Bible in a church setting. And they should never be a preacher or a pastor.
All of them are wrong. All of it is bad. I don't agree with it. Women should not teach men
the Bible in a church setting ever. And I think the Bible is really, really clear on that particular
subject. And so, I just want to make a few of those things clear. Now, here's the thing,
whenever you're in a spiritual warfare, this is what I've noticed. That a lot of women come out
of the woodwork just blowing off their mouths and just saying all kinds of stuff. They're some of
the worst railers, the worst slanderers, and they have the gift of gab. But boy, I mean, they will
just put everything that ever came into their mind and then some. And it is nasty. It is really,
really nasty. And you know, I think it's frankly speaking, first Timothy's chapter number five,
it says they're tattlers and busybodies and that they're influenced by the devil. And what's
interesting is like the other side never seems to believe this doctrine. Like I never see,
you know, when people are attacking us and stuff, I never see them trying to call out women
for being busybodies or tattlers or gossips or railers. And I'm just wondering like,
do they even believe that exists? Do they even believe that there's any women that are guilty
of being a busybody or a gossip or a tail bearer? Like, I'm just kind of curious, like,
does that even exist for many of the people that attack the new IFB or hate new IFB preachers or
hate independent fundamental of Baptist even? I mean, they just run their mouth, run their mouth.
And then it's funny, you call them out and then they act like, "Oh, I'm being attacked."
Like, how is that fair? How is that fair to have a woman just run her mouth constantly
and then we can't say anything? If you're going to put yourself in the middle of the battle,
if you're going to put yourself in the middle of the arena where the men are engaged in combat,
don't whine about it if somebody decides to make an offensive move against you. And the reality is,
you want to blow your mouth off all over social media 24/7. Don't you have a husband to serve?
Don't you have some kids to take care of? It really is amazing to be how much free time
a lot of these loudmouth women have to blow their mouth off all over social media.
Yeah, I want to pull up a verse here. And you know, think about how dishonorable it is to be
in a battle or a fight. And like, just put your wife in between you and the person you're fighting,
and let her fight for you. Or like, can you imagine getting behind your wife and letting
her shield you in any kind of a conflict? And you know, of course the Bible doesn't necessarily
address every hypothetical, but it does address one thing. And it says in Deuteronomy 25 verse 11,
"When men strive together, one with another, and the wife of the one draweth nearer for to deliver
her husband out of the hand of him that smite of him, and put forth her hand and take of them by
the secrets, then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eyes shall not pity." So according to the
Old Testament law, it was dishonorable for a woman to essentially involve herself in a physical
confrontation between two men, and not only involve herself, but specifically, you know,
kind of taking a cheap shot here is kind of the euphemism I would use, but basically doing
something really inappropriate. And of course, you know, the reason why she would do something
like that is women aren't capable of overpowering a man. She wouldn't be able to just wrassle him
to the ground or punch him out or something like that's not going to happen. But what a woman could
do is take kind of this quote cheap shot and still win a fight. And of course, if a woman was in
grave danger, if a woman was being attacked by one of these Muslim immigrants in Europe or something,
then go for these cheap shots, right? Like she should defend herself. She should try to get away.
This is a way for women to basically, you know, preserve their life in a really extreme danger
situation. But this is something that she doesn't involve her. She's going in there, yeah, low blow.
She's coming in there taking low blows. And I feel like that principle can also apply when there's
some kind of a conflict, even a verbal conflict or a spiritual conflict or an online conflict,
where it's like women interject themselves into conflicts and then take cheap shots and they say
things that are just, you know, not appropriate. And it's like in the Old Testament law, obviously
in a physical context, they would have a punishment. And I think like, how is it then not fair to call
them out? Just literally just say like, that's not right or this isn't something you should do.
Like, how is that principle not established? I mean, don't you think that that's a fair
comparison, Ben? I think it's a metaphor. What's happening right now is analogous to that passage
in the sense that you have women who are getting involved in a fight and they're taking low blows
and cheap shots through railing, gossiping, false accusations, etc. And you're pointing out the
comparison between Deuteronomy chapter 25 and what a lot of these ladies act like online. Here's what
you're not saying. You're not literally calling for somebody to chop their hand off. Anybody with
a brain in their head realizes it is a metaphor for what is happening on the internet, for what
is happening online and you're making an application with that passage. I mean just reading the verse
out loud people will falsely accuse me of believing it literally. I mean I remember there was a time
where I said this in a sermon and like the next words that came out of my mouth were not literally
and then all these people ran with the fact that I said it as a literal thing and it's just like you
can't caveat. I think you could just say like I could have a shirt that says like not literal,
a hat that says not literal, I could have a banner going on the screen that says this is a joke,
satire, metaphor, not serious and then people would be like this person's dead serious.
This is exactly what they said and it's just them lying and railing and just making stuff up and
just being really extreme and it's just to try and discredit you and you know the slander and
the railing is just it's going to happen in spiritual warfare and I think that in any conflict
it's possible for both sides to be guilty of this so don't hear me wrong. I think that you're
never going to have a clean fight probably unfortunately and we'd love to have that but
sometimes it's going to be some cheap shots on both sides sometimes you're going to have slander
and railing on both sides and we want to make sure that we're being honest and fair with that
but it seems like most of the time there's one side that is just over the top just filled with
slander railing not precise with wording just just basically just letting the carnal man come out the
old man come out and just say anything and everything and of course you then have a mixture
of actual like haters, reprobates, non-christians, atheists, satanists, all these other people who
also then just add even more kindling and fuel to the fire and just basically embolden one side
and what is interesting is like when you have on one side all of the god-hating weirdos and freaks
and enemies and stuff like that i think it should caution you to say are you on the right side
now i would i'm not going to say that you know there couldn't be a situation where a person does
something wrong and it gives occasion to the of the enemies of god to blaspheme you know i would
say you know steadfast had unfortunately its pastor uh pastor romero had to step down and i'm sure a
lot of enemies rejoiced over that and you know that doesn't that doesn't change the fact that
it was the right move for him to have stepped down and i think that that was honorable at least to
step down even if you know it was under a lot of pressure and influence you know of course
he was encouraged to do so but at the same time uh you know at least that person did that and
preserved the church and hey you know steadfast baptist church is a great church i'll be honest
it's filled with so many great people and we've we've done so many great things we've had so many
missions trips we've weathered so many incredible storms you know god i feel like god has has
confirmed our church and has confirmed the decisions that we've made and it would be
sad for someone to get bitter against our church or hate our church when it's been doing so great
and we're we're growing we've been breaking attendance records um we have a lot of great
children and a lot of great families and we have a missionary in the philippines that we're supporting
and you know i just feel like step past baptist church is doing a lot of good things and you know
i'm really i'm really appreciative that i have the honor and the privilege to get to pastor that
church because a church is a group of people and the people there are amazing it's it's a special
church and i love those people people that have visited us they really praise the congregation to
me the spirit i've had preacher friends come preach for us that are not new ifb don't want
anything to do with the new ifb but are just friendly and they highly commend our spirit and
like our church and say it's really special i've had people that aren't even bad like aren't even
baptists come to our church as guests and visit us and then really commend and say wow i really
appreciate that spirit and your church is really special and i love seeing all the children and
they're so happy and you know it's a special church and i just really i really really love the
people in our church and i think i think we have to consider the spiritual fruit of a situation
because there was a lot of controversy when we had when i took over steadfast i mean there was
all these videos i was making videos other people making videos all these attackers haters and i
just remember this one thing whoever it was pastor anderson or me we just put a video up it just
thousands of hater comments it was just like thousands and thousands just like slander and
railing and mad and angry just like just so much vitriol and of course so many people attacked us
for how we handled that situation and got mad at us but you know in hindsight like how could we say
that that was the wrong decision when we see god bless that church so much so many people have been
blessed by this church we've had so many babies born we've had so many people getting saved we
have people baptized we've had people doing great things for the lord i i think you know we've
weathered some really incredible storms and you know i think that that's you know something that
can help us along our journey of faith to see god walking alongside of us helping us and blessing
us and and you know being gracious unto us i mean what do you think about the the spiritual fruit
that you've evidenced from steadfast you've ordained people there's been mission trips there
have been soul-winning events the church has grown and has reached more people and sermons have gone
viral and people have heard about us through that happening there's been a lot that's occurred over
the last few years since that 2019 incident that you're describing and i wanted to also say that
at that time there were a lot of people who were pressuring those who stood with you they were
pressuring them to do the opposite under threat of calling them oh you're just a bunch of lap dogs
you're just drinking the kool-aid sound familiar doesn't it you're just carrying water you're just
a water boy you're just this you're just that and here's something that these people don't
understand just because they're willing to stab pastors who got them saved in the back and stab
friends in the back for carnal gain doesn't mean that i'm willing to do that it doesn't mean that
other people are willing to do that as well so you can call me whatever you want call me a coward
call me whatever spineless whatever word whatever attack whatever railing accusation you want to
levy toward me it's fine i will not stab pastors in the back i will not stab my friends in the back
especially a pastor who got me saved it is the very reason that i'm inspired to serve god today
excuse me hey and you know the one thing i really like about you is that you're just loyal in
general and that you're not quick to just hurt somebody because you know whenever this happened
you were friends with adam fannin and let's just be honest y'all were friends and you were friendly
towards each other and there's nothing wrong with that and for you to think that uh me replacing
him in leadership was a difficult decision for you and i think that that's commendable that you
weren't ready to just switch on somebody on a hair trigger because you liked him you had a friendship
with them you knew their family this is someone that's important to you yeah and you know to to
struggle in that decision to me means that you're like a sincere person you know and it and you know
the thing is is like it would be it would make me a little nervous if someone is like we're best
friends and then just the next day you can't flip the switch like that hate them i cannot flip the
switch now of course sometimes we have best friends that we we say like hey i don't agree with this i
don't like that and you know faith or the wounds of a friend is what the bible says so i'm not
saying that we have to just be in lockstep and agree with every single thing that our friends do
but at the end of the day like it's weird to just flip on someone just right away i think that it
would have to take a lot of serious thing and here's the thing even if i had a friend that
did something wrong i'm not going to flip on them and being a friend i'll just still be their friend
like wherever they're at whatever the issue is whatever the problem is let's try to be friendly
I was trying to be friendly even to Pastor Romero when he was going through his thing.
He kind of lied to me a few times so I felt like I maybe I couldn't trust him in that
moment.
But initially I was trying to give him a lot of the doubt and just trying to, you know,
it's a rough situation.
He's a real person.
He has a real family and I felt really bad about it.
And you know, it just kind of sucks when you just, you know, attack somebody that you're
a best friend just overnight.
Now again, obviously if someone stabs you in the back, like literally, you know, it
could be a quick end to a relationship, right?
And if the person you find out you thought was good is kind of like Judas, you know,
betrays thou me with a kiss, it's like, oh man, that's pretty rough.
But you know, even if I had a friend that I ended up changing my mind on, I think what's
also really dishonorable is to just trash them.
It's like, just like, well, you know, my friendship with this person isn't the same anymore, so
now I'm just going to say every negative thing that I could ever think about this person.
I'm going to make like a video and explain like every problem and every issue and every
bad thing and every hypothetical and every opinion.
Like I just think that that's also, you know, not really the right move.
You know, I mean, doesn't that seem a little weird to just air out every grievance you
can think about someone?
It makes me think you had those grievances for years beforehand.
Now, when a situation arises that you feel you can exploit, well, you feel like that
situation enables you to really just let all of that bitterness bubble up to the surface
finally and reveal how you really think about someone.
And again, we talked about it.
You know, it's ugly.
In 2019 is what happened.
People who already hated the new IFB defected.
It's ugly.
It seems like you're not a very good friend when you do stuff like that.
And I think it's better to tell people the problems you have with them in private.
You don't need to necessarily tell the whole world every single issue you have with someone.
And again, sometimes we need to call people out.
Sometimes we have to say uncomfortable things.
I'm not trying to say that I haven't done that.
I'm not trying to say that we don't do that on occasion, but I'm just saying it seems
a little weird to just say everything.
Again, and sometimes it's just, you know, in warfare,
just someone just kind of gets a little bloodthirsty,
makes me think of Doag the Edomite,
where not only is he gonna kill the priest,
he kills their whole family.
And you're just like, what is wrong with this person?
Like not only was the entire army unwilling
to kill the priest or the Lord,
this guy's gonna kill them and their families.
Like this guy is loyal to the wrong person.
Now he's loyal to Saul, but he's loyal to a fault,
and he's loyal to the wrong person,
and he just goes hard on the priest of God.
And it's just, you know, we see kind of a pattern
in the Bible of like not attacking men of God.
You know, when Aaron and Miriam speak against Moses,
God gets really, really mad.
When Korah, Dathan, and Abiram talk bad about Aaron,
he gets really, really mad.
And you know, the thing is Aaron screwed up big time.
Aaron made a golden calf.
Aaron caused the people of the Lord
to worship the golden calf.
It literally caused Moses to break the two tablets
that he got from God.
He got so mad at what Aaron had done.
And Aaron even makes lame excuses about it.
And then just shortly after this,
then Korah, Dathan, and Abiram are saying,
well, we're holy, who made you guys gods and whatever?
How are you lifting yourselves up above the congregation
and blah, blah, blah?
And then God literally buds the rod of Aaron.
He buds it just to say like, hey, this is my guy.
And so I think that that metaphor,
that spiritual example says, you know,
I'm confirming this person.
And so I think that sometimes we have to look,
you know, beyond the circumstances,
beyond just what's happening carnally
and sometimes just consider the spiritual fruit.
Now, I'm not saying that we just ignore
the rest of the Bible because, quote, spiritual fruit.
I am saying though, that it should be a factor.
I am saying that I think that that is a consideration.
I mean, don't you think we should at least consider
the spiritual fruit when we're considering how God views things?
I don't think it's a coincidence that in Numbers, chapter 16,
Korah's rebellion amounted to a controversy over who should be in charge.
And in the very next chapter, it was Aaron's rod that budded,
that served as a confirmation from God that it was Aaron who ought to be in that position.
So I'm in agreement with you, Pastor Shelley.
And I think that when it comes to spiritual fruit, it should play a factor,
it should play a factor in determining whether or not an individual and their ministry has, in fact, been confirmed.
We're doing call-ins, 231-Baptist, if you want to ask a question.
We're going to try and keep it limited to just, you know, big picture.
We don't really like name-dropper or talk about other people because I don't think that's the right thing to do.
We do have someone that's in the call and I'm going to wait a second to go to them because they want to talk about Romans 9
and I'm sure we'd love to talk about that.
I just want to kind of finish this point and then we can kind of take a side break and then we'll get into some spicy stuff here in a moment.
But I do want to say, you know, the spiritual fruit is important because sometimes we can't always know what's right.
And even the Bible tells us that we're supposed to, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but pry the spirits whether they are of God."
Because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
So the Bible literally tells us that we're supposed to test false prophets by their spirit and what that spirit indicates for us.
Now, that's probably the most extreme situation is we're trying to determine if this person is maybe a saved person or a saved pastor preaching the right gospel.
And we're testing his spirit.
But I think that this particular application is also a principle that's taught in many places in the Bible that we should just kind of test the spirit.
And when I see people slandering and railing to justify their position, hearkening unto unverifiable facts for their position,
it makes me feel like they don't have the right spirit, that they're not hearkening unto biblical principles when they're latching on to hearsay, slander, lies, deception.
They're using manipulation. They're using threats.
To me, that should be an indication that, you know, there's something wrong here.
And in a battle, it's hot, it's heavy. It can be really dangerous.
It could be fog of war going on.
Friendly fire, you know, people changing opinions and, you know, it's frustrating.
And, you know, I'm not above other people. I get it. It's tough. Sometimes it's difficult.
Sometimes you do kind of ebb and flow on your thoughts and you try to, you know, be balanced.
But, you know, when you really get tested, that's sometimes what you see what people
are like.
And you know, I'm definitely not perfect in this area. I definitely have had a lot
of battles where I've kind of gone back and forth and I've, you know, had difficult
decisions, you know, taking over steadfast. There was times where I'm just like, you know,
I don't know if this was the right decision. Being evicted and being sued. I'll just be
honest, there's been times where I've doubted and I've had struggles, you know, having issues
with people literally taking our money. That was, that was, that was serious. I've had
people take advantage of me personally and it's caused me a lot of conflict. And even
recently there's been, you know, a lot of, a lot of difficult decisions and in difficult
situations and difficult conversations with church members and whatever. And it's just,
you know, it can be hard, but I think that we have to really consider the spirit and
we have to consider what's going on. And I think that it's, it's important to always
consider the spiritual fruit and the spirit of a person. And is this person just vicious
and carnal and railing and slandering? That makes me think that this person may not be
sincere or on the right side. Do you feel like you've kind of noticed that? You've
been through battles with me. I mean, is that kind of what you've also noticed?
I think you notice a pattern in character of people who are opposing you. You notice
a pattern in who are their allies. For example, and if you don't mind, I just like citing
the 2019 battle because it's one that involved me. Yeah. But I noticed that those who split
off from our church in Stetfast Jacksonville were allied with folks who were screwed up
on the Trinity, who had tons of doctrinal problems, who had a lot of flat earthers,
flat earthers abounded on the opposing side of that church split. You had people who already
had hatred for Pastor Anderson or had hatred for the new IFB, etc. And when you notice
that pattern, it gives you a clue first of all as to their motivation. What is it that
is the catalyst for them to be behaving in this way? But second of all, it helps you
determine which side you should fall on as well.
I want to take a break and we're going to take a call in here in just this second. And
again, we're going to get spicy probably after this call in. And we'll take some other call
But just just to make sure that you know you're prepared because I know you all get really triggered is you know
I think that women should never preach the Bible in church women should not wear pants. I don't even believe women should vote
I think we should repeal the 19th
Amendment I don't think that women should be having jobs. I think they should stay home
I think they should have a bunch of kids. I think that they should you know be meek. I think they should be quiet
I think that they should be guiding the house and you know, I'm sure that I've already
Triggered about everybody that I can think of and so I just wanted to say that now we got a guy on the line
We got Brad from Indiana who was calling in he wanted to ask us a question
How's it going Brad? It's going. Well, can you guys hear me? Yeah loud and clear. How you doing?
I'm from Indiana
Great. Yeah, thanks for the spiciness tonight. I kind of stumbled upon your show a while ago
you guys got some real bangers of some episodes and I
Refreshing to hear you guys talk about controversial topics without fear. But if you're ready for my question, I'll jump into it
Yeah, let's go for it. Yeah
so the context of this is uh, my wife was kind of talking to my mother-in-law about Israel and
like hey like isn't it kind of weird that we you know, send billions of dollars to them like no questions asked over and over and
We just see we only get like one side of the story over there in the news. Anyway
So my mother-in-law wasn't too excited about that
Like I've heard her say stuff like, you know
We need to bless Israel because like our nation we blessed if we do that. Anyway later she sent she asked my wife
She's like I strongly recommend you read Romans 9. So I was like, all right
I'll read not Romans 9 and I'm pretty sure that the thing she's referring to is a remnant shall be saved
For he will finish the work. And so my question is this remnant?
Is this a future promise to be fulfilled or is this a promise of the past since this is a this is a quote from?
Isaiah is this a promise from the past that was already fulfilled and basically like the remnant
The promise was like Jesus coming and whoever believed in that the promise was fulfilled or is this like hey in the future
There's gonna be some Jews that come back. So that's a great question and
Really appreciate you being a follower of the show
Yeah, I believe the Bible is really clear that in this passage
We're talking about the state of Israel at that time. So at the time of shortly after the gospel
the they have a large population of
Israelites and or Jews in Jerusalem and in that surrounding area and
They're they're innumerable. That's what the Mount of sand of the sea is basically
describing but it's just saying only a small portion of those people are going to end up believing the gospel and getting saved only a
Small portion are going to trust in Jesus Christ. And so that's what the remnant is and
Essentially, you know Isaiah had already prophesied of this how only a small portion of
The children of Israel are gonna actually get saved and accept their Messiah
It's it's you know, it's like John chapter 1 verse 12
But he came into I'm sorry verse 11
But he came into his own his own received him not
But unto them which received him to them gave you power to become the sons of God even in the belief on his name
So you see in John chapter 1 verses 11 and and 12 he came unto the Jews
He came unto Israel but most of them didn't accept him and and really we only had a remnant or a small number of
That percent as like as far as percentage wise that ended up believing in Jesus Christ and getting saved and you know again
That's that's kind of the theme through Romans 9 10 and 11
Romans chapter 11 then kind of asked the question of like have God cast away his people and it's like God forbid because
He didn't cast away the remnant and of course, that's Paul and Peter and John and all the other children of Israel
I want to let Ben comment too because he really loves this chapter and he loves this topic
Do you have any other thoughts about this verse? It just boils down to the nation of Israel
Contains a small subset of saved people within it and that is the remnant
That's the way I describe it Romans chapter 11 addresses that same remnant in verse number three
Lord, they have killed thy prophets and dig down thine altars and I am left alone and they seek my life
But what's safe the answer of God unto him
I reserve to myself 7,000 men who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal even so then at this present time
Also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace
And I think that is the same remnant that Romans chapter 9 is describing
There's a small subset of Israel that actually believed on the Lord Jesus Christ
They are saved and as a result they are the chosen people of God
Believing Gentiles are also the chosen people of God and they're part of a spiritual nation
consisting of Jew and Gentile, but
It just boils down to like I said a small remnant of
Israelites at that time were saved. Yeah, and I think again, that's great reference to the remnant there
Also, it says in verse 7 that Israel have not obtained that which he seeketh for
but the election hath obtained it and the rest were blinded so we see that contrast between Israel and
The election and even in chapter 9 which you were talking about it says in verse 6
Not as though the word of God have taken an effect for they are not all is real which are of
Israel and it says neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they children but in Isaac shall they see be called
That is they which are the children of the flesh
These are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted for the seed and so it just really just keeps
The whole context flows together very nicely really well and and basically it's it's just basically saying
They're not all spiritual Israel which are of physical Israel there in verse 6
That's how I I kind of add my commentary to help you kind of distinguish what that's trying to say when it contrasts one
Israel versus the other and that's where we have that remnant versus the nation of Israel as a whole
that you were bringing up and
One of the verses down here in verse 27 the children of Israel. There's physical Israel
Yes, the remnant is the spiritual Israel that was referenced in verse number
6
Did that did that satisfy your question? I want I want to give you a chance to follow up here
Yeah, I think it did. Um, I mean do you think that the verse is kind of corrupted or twisted because like what I am
Thinking people think is like within the modern state of Israel like at some time in the future
There's gonna be a portion that are going to like convert back to
Christianity and that's not like the point here
the point is like you're saying there was a small portion of Israel they got saved and
Now there is no Jew. There is no Gentile like it says later. Sure. So, you know, I've heard people say that
I've certain people say like maybe this is dual fulfillment like this what we just said is true
And then maybe there's a future group of Israel that's gonna be saved
And to me I would just say this I don't believe that there's dual fulfillment
But there's nothing preventing people in the Middle East or people so-called Jews getting saved. Of course. I just think that it's highly unlikely
I don't think that that's what this verse is implying and even if it did
Let's just say that's a hundred percent true
That doesn't really that doesn't really change anything like well
I'm not gonna do anything different based on the idea of a handful of or a small percentage of people in the Middle East just getting
Saved in the end times or something like I think that there's plenty of nations and plenty of countries that are more receptive to the gospel
And I'm not against someone go to Israel to preach the gospel
But I just think like maybe we should focus on the areas that are the most receptive
That's why we do missions trips to places like the Bahamas and we go to Shreveport, Louisiana
And we go we go to small towns and stuff like that because I think that our efforts and energies are probably better spent and we
Can maybe get a better?
opportunity to preach to more people that are more receptive in those areas, so
Thanks. Thanks so much for your call. Do you have you have anything else you wanted to add there? No, I appreciate it guys
Thanks. Thanks so much Brad. God bless. Have a good night and
We got another caller here. I'm gonna go to that
We're gonna get really spicy and again viewer discretion advised if you cannot handle sensitive topics
Click off the show. Do not watch the show if you don't want to hear uncomfortable things click off the show and
And just to give you a spirit or the idea of where we're going
Women should never preach the Bible women should not wear pants women should not vote. We should repeal the 19th amendment
I think women should stay home. I think that women should not rule the house. I think that women should obey their husbands
I think that women should honor their husbands
And so if you don't like any of those statements, you should just literally click off the podcast, please do
Don't stay. I just want to make that clear
Let's let's go to our next caller
Steven from Indiana. How's it going? Oh, yes. Can you hear me? Yes loud and clear. How's it going?
Awesome. Awesome. Uh, yeah, I'm really offended now. So I'm just kidding, but
No, I've been loving the Baptist bias in your preaching
But my question is this actually it's about being a pastor
You know, I've been following your church for quite some time
No step as Baptist Church just all the persecution you guys have been through if you could point to one thing
What was the most stressful part of all that? What would you say?
I would say this week is a physically hurt the most I've ever had to go through but I don't know
I mean, you know, honestly what hurts hurts a lot is just
Helping people and and doing a lot of good unto people and then then just making bad decisions
I think that that is kind of maybe the saddest part because you kind of cheer on people in your mind your heart and you
Want to you want to do good unto them and then for them to make bad decisions or?
Make mistakes that you you kind of wish you did you sure trying to help them?
You know maybe get right get sent other life work on their relationships
Or you know become more spiritual and they just they kind of turn away or make bad decisions or get
Discouraged or quit or you know in any combination of those. I think that's probably the most
disappointing you know the outward attacks of like sodomites and
Haters and all that kind of stuff that that really isn't doesn't really affect me that much
I think it's just the the relationships that you form and and caring for people and their families just to see
See them go through problems and and make bad decisions is probably
The most difficult part. I think you know
It's just it's frustrating because you can sometimes you can just kind of tell someone's making a bad decision
You want to help them and you want to tell them and they just they don't want to listen
or they're kind of too prideful or they think they know better and and it just you see them suffer as a
result of not making maybe some good decisions and of course my opinion is not always right and
I'm not always you're gonna give someone the best advice. So I get that but sometimes you can kind of just tell and
I think that's I think that's the hardest part for me, you know preaching is easy
Our church is honestly really easy to pastor just because we have so many good people that help out so much
So to me, it's just kind of seeing people get discouraged or or make bad life choices
I don't know if that answers your question. No, it really did. I thank you for the honest
Thorough answer but I actually had her an honor and privilege to meet you in person and the church during the Chicago
So many marathon back in May. Oh, yeah, probably don't remember me
But I was the one that briefly talked to you about the Zachariah series you were preaching on and that was such a good series
I really enjoyed it. It was thank you. So deep, especially when you compared
I forget what chapter was in Zachary was like Daniel 11 like all that stuff that connects with it with the end times profit
It was really good. So no, that wasn't enjoying the preaching. That's a really hard book
Yeah, it really is. There's not a lot of like surface information a lot of it's like cryptic
So it's like man, I really got to do with my study on this. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was it was actually
I was really in Tim. I'm just be honest. I was intimidated to go through that book because I just feel like it's a really it
was a challenge and
I'm sure that I didn't necessarily get everything right and I barely didn't cover every verse
but I feel like the Lord blessed me to understand a lot more of it than I did going into it and
you know, I really I got a better appreciation of that book and so
Really appreciate you calling in and asking, you know
the Apostle Paul talked about the care of all the churches was one of the worst pains and sufferings he went through and I
I definitely think that that's a real thing, you know
you work really hard for something you put a lot of effort energy into it and if it were to just
Turn down a bad road or go away, you know
I mean the Apostle Paul talks about how all Asia turned away from him and like I'm sure that's probably hard to go through that
all of Asia
established all these churches create all these churches and for all of them to turn against you would just be
It's got to hurt. So, you know even as a church member when you see
Another fellow church member drop out for silly reasons or give up on the Christian life
That hurts, you know, especially if it was a friend somebody who spent a lot of time with I never liked seeing that
I want everybody to finish their race. I want everybody to get a lot of rewards in heaven
So that that is hard even as a church member
To see that happen let alone as a pastor whose job it is to help them serve Christ better
Thanks so much Steven for calling in. God bless you. You have a good night. So I think at this point
We'll probably get really really spicy. So can we can we play our warning?
Again, our viewer viewer discretion advised. It's it's funny cuz this program is intended for mature audiences
Parental discretion is advised if you have sensitive ears
Turn off if you don't want to hear something you don't like just turn off right now
I'm gonna say something and I want to talk about something that I would not preach and I want to make this abundantly clear
I'm not gonna preach this. I'm not gonna talk about it. In fact, I don't even agree with it
But I think you know, it's it's it's a place where we can just kind of just try to educate people a little bit
Okay, and so I just want to you know, I want to bring up something that's really sensitive
it's really controversial and the reason I am bringing it up is is only because it kind of got leaked online and
A lot of people heard me say all kinds of stuff that was in a phone call that got chopped up
And I think a lot of it was taken out of context of you know
Again, I can't remember that conversation perfectly, but I just want to make it abundantly clear
You know what I was saying and just kind of like talking about something that people get really really really nervous about so
Again, if you think if you get triggered by any statements, I make right now
You should just to just click off just click off. I don't think that women should preach the Bible
I don't think women should wear pants. I don't think women should vote. I think women should stay home
I don't think they should have jobs. I hate all waves of feminism. I think they're all wrong
All right. Did I give enough warning Ben? I think that you gave enough of a
warning to those who are going to get triggered by what you have to say next to go ahead and click
the little X button on the top right hand corner of the screen if they're watching on a computer
if they can't handle what you're about to say enough warnings at this point I think everybody
I think the audience especially those in the live chat room are ready to hear you unleash the
spiciness right now. All right so again in warfare things get ugly and sometimes we talk about things
that are ugly adult difficult concepts but here's the thing people ask me genuine questions about
this and this is a serious topic and and I want to make sure that people don't take me wrong here.
I'm not trying to be funny or jovial because some of these things we're going to say are really
serious and and and really important to everyone and and one of those things I want to talk about
is the difference between what I believe is spousal discipline and spousal abuse. Now I want to say
something very clearly. Spousal abuse is horrific and I I do not like this. I think that there is a
serious problem. I think men that would beat up and punch their wives and and hurt their wives
is is is really really wrong and and I really am against it and I think it's a serious issue and
it's it's sadly prevalent in our world. You know I don't I don't really have exposure to this in my
personal life. I don't really know people like personally that have this issue. You know I'm not
aware of these kind of issues in my church. Again I've heard occasionally people bring up this in a
side comment or something but just generally speaking I'm not really aware of these kind of
things but it is a serious thing and you know I think men that punch their wives and and beat up
on their wives are evil and wicked and it's wrong and I hate it and I think it's dishonorable and
I don't like it and no matter what I say people will twist something but you know that's how I
feel. I also want to say this you know when it comes to the idea of spousal discipline
I'm trying you know in this context I want to talk about it from a physical or corporal perspective.
This is talking about actually applying a physical discipline from a husband to a wife. I personally
do not believe in that. I've never practiced that. I never would practice that. I'm not interested
in encouraging people in that. I don't want people to do it. I'm not going to preach it at my church.
I don't want you know anybody to get wrong ideas and I honestly had already decided months ago
that I would never even bring this up. It's just somehow you know you know things got on the
internet and then people basically are twisting things that I've said or talked about to make it
seem like I think this is a cool idea or something. So I just want to make it abundantly clear I do
not agree with this. I don't believe this and I want to make it clear that I I've even preached
this many times like I've preached that men should not be beating up their wives or punching their
wives or all kinds of stuff like that. I've never changed my opinion on that and so I want to make
that clear and I think my co-host I believe you share pretty much the same opinion I'll let you
share you know your views on these two subjects. Obviously I agree with what you've said so far
and the reality is that although spousal corporal discipline exists as a concept
I would never practice it myself and so you know it's just not something that I personally believe
in my personal opinion is that it's just inappropriate to do to a wife but obviously
there's differing views out there. I don't believe in it. I wouldn't recommend it to anybody out there.
I think we've offered enough of a caveat at this point. And you know I also want to say this like
there's plenty of things that I'm just not going to do. Like I'm not going to eat Indian food.
I'm not going to put beans in my chili for the Texas chili competition and you know that doesn't
mean that I condemn them though necessarily. I wouldn't say that necessarily that just because
I don't like something or agree with it or think it's wrong and that's my opinion. I don't think
that carries forward. Now of course what I just brought up is not even close to as serious.
It's not a fair comparison. I'm just trying to you know give it a sense of the fact that
just because I have a personal opinion or strong opinion about something doesn't mean that that's
the right thing. Like I have a standard our church that I want men to wear a dress shirt and a tie
behind my pulpit. You know even the song leader even you know the bible reader and I've seen other
good fundamental baptist churches where they let guys get up there in polos or t-shirts and read
the bible and you know what I'm that's my opinion I'm not saying that they're wrong that just the
standards I have and I don't I think that it's a good you know standard and again that's also
not as serious is what we're about to talk about and what we want to address. I think that some
people though they kind of don't maybe necessarily understand the historical context of these two
words these two different descriptions that I brought up and they conflate them and I think
that it's an unfair conflation and so I just want to I just want to help people understand I believe
there is a difference even though I'm not pro either I'm not agreeing with either but one I
would for sure condemn and the other one I'm saying I don't think I could biblically condemn
this one okay so again I believe there is a distinction between spousal spanking and spousal
you know abuse and I just want to show go ahead and bring up my screen for a moment I want to
show you know I'm not like believing something that's even different than the world's opinion
on this now I just I have chat gpt here you can you can go there you can just click start now
it'll pop up and and I'm just I'm doing this live you can do this right now if you want
just say is there a difference between spousal spanking and spousal abuse okay enter now again
you might be really triggered by this so if you're already triggered by me even just asking chat gpt
please tune off this podcast this is an adult section of our show we don't always do this I
just want you to see what's going on it says right here yes there is a significant difference
between spousal spanking and spousal abuse now do you think anybody can accuse me of like hijacking
chat gbt and making it a like my version of baptist thinking or do you think that this is
just giving us a general consensus of what the internet basically has read it's offering a
consensus that exists online and the consensus is making a distinction between spousal abuse
and spousal discipline i think that much is clear thus far okay so i also want to just read what it
says spousal spanking can refer to consensual activities within a relationship where both
partners agree to participate in certain practices often without a context of intimacy and trust it
is usually involves clear communication about boundaries and consent okay then it says spousal
abuse on the other hand involves harmful behaviors that can be physical emotional or psychological
often incurs cohesion manipulation and a lack of consent with one partner exerting power and
control over the other the key factors distinguished are the two are consent mutual agreement and the
absence of harm or coercion and consensual activities so again this is just saying that
there is a distinction between these two um i also want to play a a video that is a video clip here
in a minute and uh i'll send it i'll send it to my crew i guess i didn't even think about sending
this so i'll give them a little bit of time to uh to to air this this is just a youtube video
and again adult audience only please please you know you know this should be just a mature
audience i just want to show this clip i do not endorse it i do not support it i hesitate to even
show it but i just want to uh essentially help people understand that there is a distinction
between these concepts and you know from a cultural perspective there's always been a
distinction in these things um i'll see if i i should be able to find this somewhere i don't
know if they have it or not uh let's see here we go let me copy this link and i'm gonna send it
over i'm i'm just giving people extra time to be warned here ben and uh we've given about 50
warnings. You know this is for this is mature audiences only folks and I just
you know again someone's advocating someone's gonna chop this up we don't
agree we do not advocate spousal discipline I don't know how much clearer
we could possibly be live on the air but I want to say this in the 20s 30s 40s
50s 60s 70s 80s 90s and even past the 2000s there are movies and it was in a
lot of movies a lot of TV shows a lot of so like a lot of media clips this idea
of quote spousal spanking and I'm not I'm not approving it I'm not saying I
would do this I'm not gonna do it never done it still not gonna do it I'm not
showing this in an idea of like let's do this I just want people to realize that
this was part of the culture historically okay like slavery what if we
showed a clip of slavery I don't agree with slavery I'm not saying I agree with
this I just want to simply show that this existed in our culture all right
let's play it I don't know that looked like your cousin or something those are
arrows can you imagine if they aired a movie like this would everybody walk out
screaming and shocked and horrified like right now we can put like horrible evil
atrocities in film right now but no one's ever seen this horrific stuff I
mean this is the worst thing imaginable and again I'm not agreeing with this I'm
not saying that this is you know right but for most people it's kind of real
aren't you at least that's how people viewed this they thought this was funny
they thought that this was kind of an interesting thing was actually used in
old advertisements as well back in the day so again the culture used to not
push back as much on this now of course I'm not saying this is widely accepted
I'm not saying like everybody believed this I'm not saying everybody
practices I have no idea I don't even know how we could know exactly what the
attitudes were but I think if you could see that this was in film regularly for
a long period of time that there must have been a different attitude towards
this and you know when we talk about things like slavery slavery obviously
Bible-giving Christians got their Bibles out and they're like this is wrong we
don't agree with this and we freed the slaves I just wonder if people think
that you know fundamental Baptist and Christians were the ones with their
Bibles to tell Hollywood to stop making these things or if it was loudmouth
feminists who basically thought that this was horrific and they were the ones
that tried to demonize these activities now again I'm not saying that I agree
with them because I don't but at the same time I'm not saying I could condemn
it I'm not saying that it's you know something that the Bible just has this
explicit verse on because you know I think we should really make sure that we
our opinions or whatever the Bible says and not just what's popular and I'll
tell you simply saying I cannot condemn spousal spanking is almost like the most
controversial thing I think I've ever said somehow like I've said some pretty
controversial things but just like just saying that you can't condemn this is
like literally the most extreme crazy thing ever and people get so offended
and so mad and again I'm only playing this just just so people realize now
look at this daddy you spanked mama you're darn tootin I did that means you
love her that's what I've been trying to tell her and that's basically like the
end of this clip is this you know basically that was that was the message
that they were trying to communicate they were trying to communicate that
this husband actually loved his wife so here's the thing am I supposed to
believe I'm embarrassed that I showed that Peter James says this is quite an
extensive compilation I'm that I'm embarrassed that I showed that and some
I know people are gonna chop this up and get really mad at me for that but I just
I just wanted to make sure someone says how much research all I literally it was
a you it was already done for me I've never you know research the history of
Baptist okay all right I'm just I'm just saying like just to say that that is the
exact same as men just getting angry getting drunk and punching their wives
and beating up their wives and crap just just doing all these horrible things
that is just disingenuous to say those are the same thing and you know it's
super evil and wicked for men to get drunk and punch their wives and beat up
on them they're the weaker vessel we should love them we should honor them we
should give them respect they're worthy of praise but you know at the same time
I do believe if we take out the physical punishment aspect you have to believe
that spousal discipline exists in some context I mean how can the wife be
subject under the husband if he can't even just tell her what to do if he
could never correct her in any way now again I my boundary I've decided that you
know if if I can't win my wife over with with with her heart and and you know by
giving her you know a verbal correction and stuff like that I want to give her
space and there's been times where we've had difficult parts in our
relationship and I've given her space and you know honestly my wife's a better
person than me anyway so it's kind of hard for for me to to necessarily be
equivalent to other people because I just have such a great wife but but at
the same time you know if this was a cultural thing and people were doing it
I'm not gonna sit here and judge them and get super mad at them for what's
between husband and wife that's consensual and they agree to and we
noticed they were just using their hand over clothes and stuff like that and I
think maybe there was one or two that they'd use an instrument and I'm not I'm
not proving any of it I'm against all of it I'm just saying did do you think that
it's fair to at least say that there's some distinction between that and men
just punching and beating up their wives I'd have to be insane to say
there's no distinction there obviously is a distinction now I want to bring up
verses on this because people genuinely sincere good god-fearing awesome people
believe different than what I just said and they think that we should just
condemn all of it and we should say it's all wrong and you know I respect that
opinion and I'm not gonna fight them from the pulpit I don't want to fight
them as a person I just I just want to at least you know say I think that we've
been a little feminized as a culture to get to a point where we start condemning
blaming things, maybe unfairly. And again, I'm willing to change my mind on this. Don't
hear me wrong. If someone can prove to me that it's wrong from the Bible, I'll believe
it right now because frankly speaking, I don't want to even do it anyways, so I have no reason
to not. I'm just trying to be honest with the text and honest with the situation.
What's in the Bible, what the Bible says not to do, rather, is objectively wrong, Pastor
Shelley. What the Bible says not to do is objectively wrong. If the Bible is silent
on something and you have a personal opinion that says this thing is wrong, then it is
subjectively wrong because it varies from person to person. There may be somebody else
who disagrees, whatever. The argument is, is spousal discipline objectively wrong or
is it subjectively wrong? I think that kind of sets the table a little bit.
Let's look at some verses because I'm willing to hear the other side. I'm totally willing
to change my mind on this. Of course, I'm never going to preach this. I'm not going
to fight anybody that has a different opinion on this personally, because I think really
good people believe differently than me.
Ephesians chapter 5 verse 25, the Bible says, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ
also loved the church and gave himself for it." And just for sake of time, if we skip
down to verse 28, "So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveeth
his wife loved themself, for no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth
it even as the Lord the church." So the Bible makes it clear it's we become one flesh, we're
supposed to nourish our wives and cherish our wives and we're supposed to treat them
with respect and honor and then the weaker vessel and we love them. And this is what
I kind of hear people say is they say, "Well, this verse is case closed because you would
never discipline yourself in the way that we saw on those videos and things like that."
And that's true. I've never done that. I would never do that. I'm not doing it to anybody.
I'm not doing it to her. I'm not doing it to me. I wouldn't do it to anyone. If someone's
going to be like, "Oh, Pastor Shelley literally encouraged people to do this." They're lying.
You are a liar. I never said that. I just want people to realize that there is a difference
between this. And if someone did it, I won't condemn them as a person. Okay? I won't condemn
their action even. But I'm not saying it's okay. I'm not, you know, it's like, "Well,
Professor Shelley said it was okay." Liar. Okay? But I want to say this. How far can
we really take this analogy? Because I don't think it's fair to say that every single thing
that I do to my wife is something I would do to myself. And I'm not going to go down
a crazy train on this. I just want to bring up one example. You know, I kiss my wife,
but I don't kiss myself. And I think that anybody could realize there's a lot of things
that maybe husbands would do for wives, wives would do for husbands that we don't do to
ourselves. Here's, here's another one. So you will say, well, you don't practice discipline
on yourself, but that's not really true because one of the things prescribed in the Bible
is fasting. And that is a form of discipline and self-discipline that people would exercise
on themselves. You know, working out is another way that you can, you know, it is a type
of physical discipline that you can implement. And you know, here's the thing. I would never,
I would never force my wife to not eat. Like I think that fasting is a personal decision.
Like I think that that would be weird or wrong to force that. But the Bible has you doing
it to yourself. So I think that we can't necessarily take this biblical principle and apply it
in every single hypothetical, every single scenario because I wouldn't force, I do fasting
myself, not in her. I may give my wife a kiss and a hug, but I don't do those things to
myself. And I think, you know, I'm not going to elaborate on that, but I'm just simply
saying like, I believe that we can't necessarily take every single, you know, thing and say,
this is the principle that just hardened fast. I mean, what is, what is your, you know, give
me some pushback on this if you disagree, of course, but I just want to see, you know,
play devil's advocate with me. How is, how is that fair to say that this applies to literally
every scenario based on the few things I kind of brought up?
Well, I mean, obviously there's such a thing as self-discipline, so if you could do it
to yourself and your wife is one flesh with you, then I understand the connection there.
I think if I were to push back, I would ask the question, but is there anything you do
to yourself to punish yourself for wrongdoing? Because I think that's the spousal discipline
that people are talking about is if your wife transgresses, then you end up responding with
a punishment, but the transgression is a wrongdoing.
Well, you know, the Bible even talks about a husband and wife refraining from marital
duty because they're both agreeing to fast, and that's a form of joint consensual self-discipline.
And so, you know, I think that, you know, it's possible to see examples in the Bible
of self-discipline and mutually consensual self-discipline as taught in the idea of both
refraining from marital duty for a time of prayer and fasting.
Do you think that that's a fair, you know, assessment of that verse that it's saying
you're having a mutual self-discipline of some sort and you're making these decisions?
And again, I think obviously in a marriage, you know, things should, you know, flow in
a way where in best case scenario, you're both consenting and especially on things like
this.
And again, let's just be honest.
The idea of spousal, you know, discipline or spousal spanking is weird just because
it's so counter cultural, it's something that I don't think anybody, I don't, I don't even
know if anybody even really does this.
I think that, you know, we have an epidemic of spousal abuse in America and I don't think
that people are actually exercising what we saw in that video or like a loving mutual
spousal discipline and even a few people are like, I'm just not going to judge that.
I just, I just want to make sure people are being fair and honest with the text.
Well, there's some other things that people brought up.
I think it's weird as well.
It's weird.
I think there's other things that people brought up.
I've seen one where it says if men strive together and they hurt a woman, let's see,
let's see if we can pull that verse up too.
If men strive, I believe this is what, let's see, yeah, here we go, Exodus 21 verse 22,
if men strive and hurt a woman with child so that her fruit depart from her and yet
no mischief follow, he shall surely be punished according as the woman's husband will lay
upon him and he shall pay as the judge is determined.
So according to the Bible, you need to be very careful with a pregnant lady and, you
know, this is a picture of men fighting and really going at each other and somehow it
gets out of control or they run into a woman or something, I don't know exactly or maybe
he was just intending to actually hurt this woman and somehow he's possible and I believe
the mischief is harm to the baby and so it's saying that he would be punished.
And I've seen that people bring this up.
I think this is probably in my opinion maybe one of the best arguments I've heard but at
the same time I think that it's basically insinuating that we should be very careful
around pregnant women and I think that pregnant women in general are treated differently than
non-pregnant women and especially as their pregnancy escalates and evolves through the
pregnancy and so obviously you would never want to do anything that could possibly harm
a child.
I don't think though that this is an all the time situation, I don't even think that what
we saw in the early parts of a pregnancy puts any harm or risk but again even if it did
put any kind of risk you should definitely, I would probably condemn that but I'm saying
like I don't know that I can just condemn this idea of spousal corporal discipline based
on any verse and I'm willing to look at other verses, do you know any of the arguments?
I don't really know all the arguments because nobody ever preaches this or talks about it
really but obviously the Bible text is about the making one flesh, I think honor the wife.
Well, 1 Peter chapter, yeah, I mean that's what I was going to bring up.
Yeah, bring up that verse.
In 1 Peter chapter 3 where the Bible refers to, "Likewise ye husbands, dwell with them
according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife as unto the weaker vessel and as
being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers be not hindered."
I think that's a scripture that can be used to condemn the practice of spousal corporal
discipline.
I do think it actually can be applied that way in my mind, but I'm curious, look, there
is no thou shalt not here, it's obviously not clear, but how would you reconcile the
concept of giving honor unto the wife with the concept of spousal corporal discipline
if you knew somebody who wanted to practice it and didn't feel like there was anything
in the Bible that condemns it? How do you respond to the idea that 1 Peter 3.7 would
condemn it?
Well, again, I mean, obviously we need to treat these verses with care. I love my wife,
I love women, I don't want them to be hurt, I don't like especially the epidemic of women
getting literally beaten up and horrible stories, women going to the hospital. And not only
does physical spousal abuse hurt, it hurts emotionally. It can change the relationship,
it could change the dynamic, it could really make things way worse. Especially if this
was done in front of children, it can be extremely traumatic, it could cause them to have hatred
and bitterness towards their father. Especially when a child is seeing someone they love and
care about her with no rhyme or reason and just being punched and all that, like it can just,
it really can be devastating. And I think this is an extremely serious issue that we should not
take lightly. And yet at the same time, I think that we're describing two different things.
And so, you know, I want to still look at this verse, obviously, we're giving honor under the
wife. Honor specifically, is what I'm curious to see how you'd respond to. Because I think
that's respect, right? Yeah, respect. I think respect. I think treating her with value,
you look at her as a prized possession. I mean, the Bible says that a virtuous woman who can find
her price is far above rubies. So obviously, women should be praised. The Bible talks about
in Proverbs 31 that the children and the husband, they're going to rise up and they're going to,
they're going to bless their wife, they're going to praise their wife. We see in the Song of Solomon,
the male husband author praising his wife and talking about her beauty and we need to
treat our wives with a lot of respect and love and care. I think though that if, you know,
if a husband and wife had a consensual arrangement where in some circumstances,
if she did something and he could give her verbal correction and if he did apply spousal discipline,
I don't think that that has to change the dynamic. I think in America and I think in our culture,
it's probably impossible to really do, I think, for almost 99% of people. And even in the rare
cases, I just don't encourage it. I don't think it's a good idea. I think it could cause a lot
of problems. And I'm not trying to be feminist. Maybe I am feminist, but in that one small tiny
area. But I just think that I'm just trying to be honest with the text because I'm saying like,
look, the text, I don't think is spelling out anything very clear here. I think that, you know,
she's obviously the weaker vessel. I think, you know, we need to win the hearts of our wives.
You know, we would love to be able to just give them light reproves and corrections and for them
to respond with grace and with humility. So corporate discipline of the wife doesn't
violate the concept of giving honor under the wife. At least in my opinion, I don't, I don't
think that it's a contrast. I'm willing to be wrong on this. I'm willing to see, you know,
differently. I never, you know, I didn't grow up in a home where this ever happened. My dad never
hurt my mom. They did not practice this. I've never heard of anybody practicing this in my childhood
or my youth. I never even, I probably saw some movies or ads throughout time where this concept
was there and I've had people ask me about this like years ago and I've always said like I don't
agree with it and that's just my you know my personal opinion. I don't think I could say it's
technically wrong but I just wouldn't encourage it. I don't really agree with it. I thought about
maybe one time kind of addressing it just so people would think so they wouldn't do it in a sense that
they would try other things. They would try other steps as far as like how to resolve difficulties
in their marriage but I just decided to avoid the topic because for some reason if I say that I
can't condemn spousal discipline based on what I just you know was talking about a light form of
spanking that's consensual within that marriage arrangement then people freak out and people say
you're like a wife beater and your whole church is wife beaters and you're wicked and you're evil
and you hate women and all the stuff and it's just like you know I mean I'm just not I'm just
saying that this is different and again I'm not I love women I don't want to see them hurt and I
think this is the danger because we live in a society where men are just really beating up their
wives that this is a really dangerous attitude or idea. I just want people to necessarily not
discount the idea that there's a separation of distinction in these two things and maybe for
some people they say well I just think it's not edifying to prove that distinction so I'm just
going to stay completely away from it and condemn all of it because I think people can't control
this they can't do it right it's not possible to implement and you know I can respect that opinion.
I just think that we should be careful not to condemn things that the Bible doesn't condemn
and that we should at least consider other ideas here. Well hypothetically if a husband and wife
sat down together and they decided this was a practice they wanted to engage in the wife agreed
to it and then they went with it. I don't see a violation of first Peter 3-7 there but it's
something they both came to the conclusion that they wanted to do. Now again I would find it
weird I would also go as far as calling it inappropriate because I think this kind of
discipline is better suited for children and is actually more appropriate for children so
I think it's inappropriate. I find it weird. I would never practice it. There you go.
And again I've had these conversations and had all these things like months and months and months
ago. Years ago I've talked about this with people so this is not something that I've even changed
my opinion on. If I did change my opinion I would just say that and again I'm still willing to
change my opinion on that and so you know I just want to put it out there. We're talking about
spicy stuff. We're coming at these different difficult topics with the Baptist bias and look
I look at lots of people in the chat. People disagree with us. People think that it's wrong
and you know I can respect that opinion. I'm not here to fight with you. Obviously I'm just trying
to at least help people realize that I think there's a distinction between these two words.
I mean cussing is not a sin, yet I would not advocate for somebody to be cussing after every
word. You don't hear us dropping F-bomb, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc. bombs here on the Baptist bias.
You know, I'm not going to say that I've never used those words before, but certainly I don't
advocate for cussing. I think that people who cuss after every word frankly they sound uneducated.
I think it's a bad form of communication and it can be inappropriate. There are certain contexts
where it is of course inappropriate to talk like that, yet it's not a sin. Does that mean that now
I want everybody to cuss because I said it wasn't a sin? No, and it's the same thing with this
situation. There is a distinction between that which is objective and that which is subjective.
Subjectivity means that it varies from person to person and there's liberty there when it comes to
your opinion on that issue but that which is objectively wrong is clear cut in scripture
irregardless of your opinion. And you know again when it comes to this particular topic some people
even brought up the legality and I want to see if I could find I think there's like uh don't go to
my screen yet because I'm not I'm not sure I'm trying to see if I can find this maybe they can
help me I think that there was like some uh some kind of a court ruling maybe in the 50s uh on this
particular topic and I'm just trying to see if I can find it sometimes the internet just sucks
but there was definitely uh some court rulings on these particular situations and I believe that the
courts ruled uh in favor that this was not um illegal maybe I'll just ask my crew and see if
they can find it they can send me a link here in a minute but I thought there was a time in like
the 1950s or 60s or 40s or maybe it was 20s I don't remember some at some point I was reading
something and I you know I don't really care to keep all this research but maybe we can find that
I'm just excited for everybody of the enemy side to conclude that on this podcast we taught you
all to yes yeah that's what they're gonna say that's what yeah did you see this horrible video
they shared on youtube also it's like we can share videos that literally have a transvestite in it
like we can have a man in a dress with makeup on and we'll share that video and we'll go watch
that video but god forbid we would watch a movie from the 30s or 20s or John Wayne you know you
know spanking his wife like right like it's kind of funny the hypocrisy of some of these groups
in fact there's this person they made a video attacking us for AI music like they literally
made this entire video attacking us for AI music saying it's super evil and wicked and then like
just like i don't know maybe a week or two later just recently they made their own video using AI
music i kid you not just like it's like what in the world calling the kettle black you're just
you're going to make fun of us for having AI music and then you yourself you are going to make AI
music try not to use it yourself like it's just kind of funny how people do those kind of things
you know on the cussing thing i want to say this obviously i've taught and i've said many times i
don't think cussing is a sin but that does not mean i approve of it in every context or situation
in fact if my kids say things or or my wife or even myself i'll feel bad i'll say hey let's
not talk like that that's not something we should say and i think you know the reason why it's so
closely coupled with things like cursing in the bible is because of the fact that a lot of times
people use a cuss word when they're cursing they'll say like d-u and f-u and they'll say
you know b and stuff and they're like wishing you to go to hell and things like that and so like
you have this really tight coupling like it's almost a one for one that when people are using
strong profanity and language they are cursing someone and the bible is telling us not to curse
people and so then it became a quote curse word it became kind of a and then the slang for curse
word is cuss word that's the same thing and it became that way because when people would curse
they would use the strongest language possible but again that doesn't mean that that word in every
context is necessarily a curse the bible talks about people going to hell and just the concept
of hell and i don't think the word hell is a word that's not allowed to be said verbally or vocally
there's something wrong with it but if you use any word whether it's hell or not and a curse when
you shouldn't like cursing your brethren and cursing good people cursing men of god go to hell
yeah but even if you just said like i hope something bad happens to you and you don't use any
what is considered profanity i think that that is cursing uh let's go on someone i think they
pulled up this article yeah pull up this article do we have a date on this can you tell me i don't
know i don't see the date on this says okay oh yeah that's what it was 1959 high court rules
spanking wife legal des moines iowa you know i'm sorry it's okay i they're gonna now they're
going to make fun of me for saying Des Moines yeah so Des Moines so people say like this is this is
so illegal and so evil but it's like actually there was um examples of the courts saying that
this is technically legal and so you know i i think that people should just at least consider
the historical context of any doctrine that they believe they should consider the societal doctrine
they should consider the fact that it's really feminism that really put a lot of pushback on
this and change this and you know again i'm not saying that the bible ever taught it because it
doesn't i have no verse to prove it i have no verse in my mind to even support it i don't support
it i'm not for it we're talking about spicy stuff ben well people point out in the chat room how
come there aren't any prophets of god who engaged in this well because the bible is silent on it
all right so let's just get it let's just get a sample because i'm just curious from our audience
do you think and this is this is the question do you think that what i just described spousal you
know light spanking or this light uh this discipline is can it should be condemned in
all situations or do you think the bible is silent and so basically you can just say uh let's do maybe
for silence or no let's do um oh we can make a poll we're gonna make an actual we're gonna actually
make an actual poll here we go there we go we can get you to vote we got over 400 people
in the live stream the baptist bias someone called me election someone's like y'all are the beater
baptist you know y'all are telling me i've never said that i don't agree with it don't beat your
wife i am from the west i understand why he would say that to me yeah and again i we made videos
attacking that like we made videos of making fun of that because the quran literally says to strike
them it also says to forsake them in bed which is like that's the weirdest punishment that one
that one's so unbiblical you know that's so that's so terrible like hey that's something that we
could say the bible is clear on that you should never refrain from having a physical relationship
the duty of marriage with your wife absolutely uh so we're gonna try and get uh we're gonna try and
get a uh a poll i guess i don't think i've ever done this on the rumble so we'll see if we can
get a poll here i think our production team is constructing this honestly i love our crew folks
we have the best crew i think we do as well i'm you know i'm so glad that our crew is
you know still with us and they love us and they support us because we couldn't do the show without
the crew yes hopefully we haven't ran them off here with tonight's you know again we're going
through spiritual warfare and i think sometimes in spiritual warfare you have to talk about some
difficult things things you wouldn't normally talk about things that are crazy and i think
there's a lot of slander and railing and over the top accusations made about this little bit of
nuance that we're trying to just unpack so that people don't get the wrong idea here that at
least we can talk about things and you know there is there is nuance in the bible the word repent
is based on the context the word wine is based on the context i also think that there's a distinction
between getting drunk and drinking a little bit of alcohol now in that situation i think both are
wrong i think that both are unbiblical but you know i wouldn't throw someone out of church for
being a drunkard um just because they had one beer or just because they had a little bit of alcohol
and then is that me now saying please drink a beer please drink a little bit of alcohol
just have a little bit of it some people would say well you know if what if a woman was in a
situation where her husband did something inappropriate actually laid hands on her and
you know what well that's wicked that's wrong i don't i don't agree with it it's super dishonorable
i don't i don't approve of it and they would say like well shouldn't she just divorce him and run
away or something and it's like look if a woman was literally feeling fearing for her life or her
physical safety i do think that she should you know separate herself from a dangerous situation
obviously a life or death situation she should be willing to defend herself but uh okay we got the
link for the poll vote now on if it's condemned every single time or if it's just silent so that's
that's what the poll uh we got a fast poll i've never seen this all right yes never appropriate
no it could be appropriate all right so i guess i guess they worded it a little bit differently but
person says i can't click a choice i don't know if that's maybe just them somebody put silent in
the chat so we're letting the we're letting the tallies come in some people say they can't click
say some yeah another person try try refreshing because i can't vote it worked for me um yeah it
looks like it's unclickable so this poll is rigged oh man let's i refreshed oh so we definitely got a
mixed bag and i think this is just this is early we're gonna let the things keep coming in keep
coming in all right and someone's gonna be like oh it's because there's shows there's a bunch of
young single new ifb punks or something like that right i don't know i don't know what our
demographic young single wife beating punk yeah hold on a second that doesn't work yeah i think
that i think if we did a new poll that was like do you agree with beating your wife i think we
would have a hundred percent no zero okay folks a hundred percent uh it's never right i think that we
would have everybody say that it was wrong well there could be a one secret muslim in there who
says yes pastor shelly i think it's amazing that this subject is so controversial like i i get it
like i understand why it is it is controversial people are disagreeing and that's fine and that's
fine but you've literally preached so right now this is what you're saying you're saying i don't
advocate for women to be punished corporally in their marriage right exactly but it's not a sin
that's what you're saying i don't i don't think i can point to the verse to condemn it so i'm not
i'm not here's the thing i want to make myself clear i'm not saying it's definitely not a sin
i'm saying that's my opinion it could be and i'm just not seeing it in your opinion it's i'm just
saying yeah i'm just saying like and i'm willing to change my mind on it but from my perspective
i just don't see the clear verse to condemn it just yet so you don't see anything in scripture
that you can use to condemn it just yet but there are there are obviously guiding principles not
everything in the bible is spelled out we have to take principles we have to take the spirit of the
law we have to consider all kinds of different things when we decide something you know the
bible doesn't say anything about smoking the bible doesn't say things about you know you know certain
things that happen in society and you kind of have to use your better judgment you have to use
guiding principles because it's such a gray area that's why i think this is subjective
right so you come up with whatever conclusion you want i ain't doing it in my house but here's
here's my point okay i want to make an overall point here all you've said so far is spousal
corporal discipline you know what i don't see a verse that explicitly i could use to condemn it
all right however here's what else you've preached women should be executed for adultery i was just
about to say that for adultery that was an awkward pause for adultery wow that was extreme hold on
for adultery okay sure men and women not just women men and women who commit adultery should be
executed according to god's law yes leviticus chapter 20 and verse 10 now here's the thing
about that it doesn't it produces some outrage when you say adulterers should be put to death
but not nearly as much as this i feel like and if you think about it one involves capital punishment
and the other one involves kind of that spanking that we saw in the video yeah interesting to me
this is what would be funny is it's like if we had biblical laws and our wife committed adultery we
could execute them but we would not be able to give them a light spanking right like the light
spanking is condemned but you you could execute her that's definitely that's definitely and that's a
crime obviously we're talking about crime government should execute discipline and crimes have a clear
separation in the bible so i don't think that we know we should look at criminal law and say this
is how we rule our home you know i'm not saying that i'm just simply saying like it's it's a little
bit of a paradox in my mind um i i was thinking of another i think there's another verse that
people bring up here about this context like being not a striker as a pastor but you know that's not
saying like i don't think that that says a pastor could never punch someone i think it's in the
context of like you're just you get mad someone says something rude and you just punch them but
if you were defending yourself in a physical like someone was attacking you or your family i think
you could defend yourself if someone did sport where they did boxing or something as a hobby or
whatever is agreed upon sport and they're punching like i don't i wouldn't say that pastor is
disqualified because he's a striker now or something i think it's the attitude and spirit
of someone that is literally you know just getting mad and punching people um i also think you know
again if you look at court rulings and the law i'm not 100 sure but i think that even today if
someone exercised what we saw in those videos and the light spanking that it's not illegal but
someone could correct me i'm not a lawyer i don't know exactly i think a lot of the laws about
spousal abuse are are limited to the other stuff that we're talking about and those contexts so
again i don't know i think courts would be would be in a difficult spot too on how they would rule
on these things in 2024 but i don't let the courts decide what's right or wrong necessarily
um obviously striking your wife i think is like punching your wife especially out of anger and i
think that's wrong that's obviously condemned condemned super wrong we don't like it we hate
it totally totally bad and so you know i just want to make that super clear um there's some
other things that we can bring up let's let's see if we bring up this poll we've pretty much got a
split poll right now a lot of people voted 47 votes we've got 27 saying maybe it can't you know
maybe it's not condemned and then 21 saying yes for sure condemned never appropriate should never
happen and you know hey I understand people have a split opinion on this so you know that's fair
and hey we get to talk about it I hope that people aren't just like well I just hate pastor
Shelley now because he has a split opinion on this or or whatever but this let me just say this
you're not going to ever show up at steadfast baptist church I'm going to preach this doctrine
to you so you don't even have to worry about it if you're like mad about this or you don't like
this I already gave you enough warning to tune off of the show you're only here because you wanted
to hear what I actually had to say so you know it is what it is this is the one time if anybody
ever asked me I'm gonna be like yeah just listen to the just listen to this show and hear every
caveat this is the one time I'm gonna explain this and I would have never even done this
if I didn't have just some of my opinions put out there without me actually getting to explain
what I was saying and so you know again people can can believe whatever they want about me but
I'm expressing my consistent held view I've had conversations with a lot there's a lot of witnesses
of the fact that I've had this conversation months and months ago years ago I remember when I
preached on it so like I've never changed my opinion on this I've only expressed my opinion
and so that that I'm suppressing now and I want to say you know when it comes to any controversy
it's it's important we don't just repeat hearsay and I think also when it comes to witness testimony
we have to be careful not just trusting someone just whatever witness or whatever testimony that
they give. Now the Bible brings up this idea of multiple witnesses like to confirm things maybe
in a criminal context maybe in you know just establishing facts but you know in the in
America's judicial system we have that too you have to have multiple witnesses they go on trial
and you know they cannot in a trial hearsay is not allowed and hearsay is something that you did not
see you did not witness personally if someone told you and that's not admissible in a court of law.
Additionally when you're on trial and you have witnesses they also can be cross-examined meaning
that someone can ask them all kinds of questions to try and try and figure out if they're actually
telling the truth and really trying to get into the nitty-gritty on what they're actually saying
and so you know when we are going to consider a witness in a serious situation you have to
ask this question like were they in a sober state do they have any bias have they been cross-examined
do all these testimonies line up and you know when it came to Jesus Christ himself it said that many
multiple like many witnesses came and testified but their witness didn't agree and meaning that
they're saying different things and so just even though you have multiple witnesses it doesn't
even necessarily make something true now of course when you do have multiple witnesses we should
take that seriously we should consider what is being said and and you know with soberness
and and everything like that but i also think we have to think like does this witness have a motive
how are they communicating this is there evil intent are they in rebellion are they lying about
things that we can fact check and you know that goes to the credibility of a particular
witness you know when we have a woman who's suing some man for millions and millions of dollars
saying that he did something to her that was inappropriate we sometimes have to question her
motive and you know there's this big movie that came out this is like believe all women it's like
this left hard liberal democrat philosophy you know what i think that that's a dangerous precedent
of just quote believe all women or believe all witnesses or just believe it's like hey if someone
said something about the new ifb just automatically true and i think there's some people they just have
hatred in their heart or they they're just a little bit gullible or simple and sometimes they
just they just want to believe something and then they hear something and they just they immediately
go hook line and sinker for and i think we have to be careful when it comes to that you know for me
when it comes to a fellow church member especially a pastor i try to always give them the benefit of
the doubt no matter what the accusations are until it seems credible there's there's not something
you know discounting that person's testimony that they're not in like this obvious rebellion
or something like that and and i think that we have to be careful that we don't just
immediately believe you know all kinds of different testimony because you know people
want to destroy the work of god i don't know if you understand this the devil exists folks
there's really evil people out there and they can lie and people can misremember and people can
invent things and people can change you know i think any of us when we try to remember facts
sometimes we get them wrong we misremember and that doesn't necessarily mean that someone
recounting something just because they misremembered a little changes the fact that that happened but
i think that we have to be really careful that we don't just believe everything we hear believe
everything on the internet believe every witness we have to be really careful and scrutinize and
you know honestly if someone's even giving a testimony in an insincere way i just usually
just just don't even just i'm not going to believe any of it i'm just going to kind of discard it
and just kind of say like you know i i would like to see this being in a sincere
manner they're not like slandering and railing and having some kind of an
ulterior motive i don't know what are your thoughts on this multiple witnesses
there were multiple witnesses to convict Naboth right in a plot to steal his vineyard they were
sons of Belial though and that doesn't make them credible multiple witnesses is not the only
parameter by which we measure the credibility of an accusation so in order to take down a man of
god they inquired of reprobates of sodomites to help them and assist them and and basically
bringing forth false witnesses that that's basically how it worked right that's how it worked and and
and that's what i'm referencing and it's it's not even a conspiracy of just two because it was
Jezebel Jezebel is the third that was involved and potentially she did she not send messengers
to go and find two sons of Belial yeah that's another person so like multiple we have tons
of people involved in that particular scenario all in a conspiracy theory to essentially destroy
Naboth who'd done nothing wrong right now again sometimes people you know some people aren't
Naboth that are just perfect sometimes you do have like maybe a little bit of error a little
bit of issue or you've done you know minor little things and then people just kind of can blow them
out of proportion they can uh do things that are just you know not really fair characterizations
you know when i see a video and it's literally someone talking and then they just splice and
then the person's talking like i just think like wow that's pretty disingenuous you may
have that experience that's not really serious as of late um so you know again i'm not saying
that those things can't be true i'm not saying that people couldn't you know talk to bad people
and say things that are true of course but at the same time when people are being disingenuous
when you see in the spiritual warfare all of these people that are evil and wicked agreeing with this
testimony that makes me think there's something suspicious about it because because you know
the bible makes a big deal about like this people harkening under good spirits and people harkening
under evil spirits and i just remember like every single thing i said in the adam fanden thing
every evil person said was all wrong all lies all bad and like everything adam fanden said even
though i knew it was lies because i actually knew what's going on behind the scene they're all like
that's right that's good this is correct i love it and it's almost like the bible just comes to
life here i want to go to first john again i think um because because it brings up uh this
concept in first peter i'm sorry first john chapter four uh i think it's sorry i just want
to repeat as you pull the verse up that once again because people keep talking about multiple
witness multiple witness multiple witness two three witnesses four witnesses whatever the case may be
the number of witnesses that testify to something is not the only parameter by which you determine
the veracity of claims or the right truthfulness of claims yeah the bible says in first john chapter
four verse five they are of the world therefore speak they have the world and the world heareth
them we are of god he that know of god here with us he that is not of god here with not us hereby
know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error now of course this context is for sure about
who christ is his divinity that christ came in the flesh that is the context no way around it that's
what this passage is talking about and i think that that helps us recognize people that are saved
and people that are not saved but i think that this principle could be applied a little bit
broader too and just general that it seems like people who are saved are more likely to hear the
spirit of god you know jesus christ said my sheep hear my voice and they're not going to follow a
stranger spirit will guide you into the truth and i think that people who are not saved are evil
workers they're going to kind of hear that spirit of error and and so i think it's something we
should just at least consider that when all of the really evil wicked people are on one side
you know we need to be careful that they're they're not giving the spirit of error in that
particular situation um you know what do you think about those verses and in a broader context do
you think that that's fair do you think that that's equally applied yeah of course i mean i i think
that you have to pay close attention to who is allied with its with each side now you had brought
up what happened with steadfast baptist church in 2019 i'm talking about steadfast and dfw when
the pastor stepped down and obviously the sodomites were against him too i understand there
are exceptions to some of these things we're describing however in general i think it is
prudent look at who is allied with the opposing team all a bunch of people that are disgruntled
all a bunch of people who hate god i mean you have a bunch of sodomites that are doing victory laps
and things of that nature and when you observe that i think it should help you make a determination
as to who is telling the truth that especially when accusers actually go to sodomites when
that is their decision that's the people that's the animals i should say those are the animals
that they want to go to to make an accusation that should also help you determine yeah so
we've we've talked about a lot of common things we talked about just the spiritual fruit we've
talked about people who are respectful and seeming sincere we've talked about you know women who are
blowing off their mouth you know one thing that i've noticed is a lot of people in these spiritual
battles they try to threaten me and curse me by not going with their side and you know in a recent
battle that we've been going through i've had people like literally saying i'm going to be
cursed of god and i'm going to have strange punishments and cruel punishments and and just
saying all this really crazy stuff threatening me trying to provoke me you're a coward and all
this different stuff is this in private message or comments just texting me messaging you you know
whatever all this kind of stuff and i'm thinking like that doesn't make me want to join your side
you know to me like i don't really want to agree with someone when when they're trying to coerce
me through these type of methods um i think also when we notice people that are just excessively
slandering and railing that makes me think that they're not being very sincere and i think when
people are you know kind of taking the bible and just they're not really being fair with the text
they're not trying to be fair with any point that they're just you know just saying whatever they
want to say that that's a danger and we need to pay attention to that in spiritual warfare
i felt like adam fannin kind of changed his doctrine on ordination from convenience he
he seemed like because he called around other pastors asking to ordain him and then when they
wouldn't then now he believes that the congregation can ordain him you know some people believe that
i i think that that's wrong i preached about that but i definitely didn't change my doctrine after
it became convenient that no one would ordain me or something like that i i think that if you know
when i was at faithful word pastor anderson had just said you know what i don't want to ordain
you i don't think that you are a good fit but you can serve here then i would have just kept serving
or you know eventually maybe i would have moved but i just got another church i would have probably
just at that point just decided you know what i'm not i'm gonna respect that opinion i'm not
gonna just go and just find 10 people off the street to call me pastor and just start a church
you know what i mean like i just didn't agree with that plus i'm just not going to change my
doctrine just because it's convenient for me um i i also want to bring up uh another passage i
think you can pull this up on the screen i don't know if we had any uh more callers you could call
two three one baptist if you want to call we're we're talking about controversial stuff folks
all right here's another thing i just kind of a tip i think when we're in a warfare we're in a
battle we want to be careful that we don't get lifted up or become prideful to where we're talking
about things that maybe we haven't had success in you know and like for me i didn't want to
ordain a pastor until i had successfully pastored for five years because because i thought like
you know it doesn't really make sense and yeah that's just my personal standard i'm not against
people that don't do that i'm just saying i just kind of thought this personally because i thought
like it doesn't seem right for me to do something like ordaining another pastor and identifying
another pastor when i myself haven't even pastored for at least a while successfully and like god
confirming the things that i've been doing and helping me and so you know i think that sometimes
we should be careful to you know think about like have we had success in this area you know people
asking you advice like do you really know what you're talking about have you really gone through
that and you know just being careful that we don't think that we're smarter than we really are
because most of the time when we don't have experience in an area we're probably not the
best advice givers you know people that have never been married probably shouldn't be giving
you marriage advice people that have never had kids should probably not be giving advice for
children people that are not a doctor should probably not be giving medical advice and you
know it's funny to me it's like people that haven't even read the bible cover to cover
and the bible literally says women not teach the bible they're gonna this woman's gonna correct
pastors right this woman's gonna tell and teach pastors what the bible says and you know it just
kind of it just it seems uncomely and appropriate and i think that we should be careful you know if
we haven't had success you know i try to be really even careful when it comes to some parenting
advice and and just you know advice uh even in marriage like uh you know i haven't been married
for 50 years i would think a person that's been successful married for 50 years might be even better
at giving some marriage advice than me i think someone that's raised adult children or raised
teenagers is going to be able to give better advice than me i think that people that have
worked on cars are going to give you way better advice about cars than me i don't know much about
cars obviously you know you could probably tell me a lot more about 7-eleven than i could you know
and so uh just be based on your accent alone at least say camels that would have made more sense
flying flying carpets or at least at least you know you could probably give advice on camels 7-eleven
that's indian i'm not i guess pakistanis work there as well but uh that has nothing to do with
me two three one bambas if you want to call in i don't even like 7-eleven yeah what i'd much
rather go to a different gas call centers but no buckies for example put a put a w in the chat if
you want us to do the uh calling hotlines again i don't know if people want us to do that show
again but um i think a lot of people enjoyed it a couple seasons ago when we did it uh we'll make
ben do the indian accent again so put it put a w in the chat if you want to us to do the calling
hotlines again i think i think a lot of people actually like that show we're getting we're
getting some w's there ben maybe i should put eyes in there for indian just give us some indian here
for a minute okay give us a little bit of the call center how are you doing today i used to think
that i was somewhat good at this accent and then i heard you do it and i was like i'm terrible i
did it very good you're better than you you do it so well you love the you love the seven i love
indians i really do give him the gift card get your social security number it's all the indians
out there take the accent that i do as a tribute not as i think it's fun i think it's funny um
you know i i made a post today talking about how i don't like indian food and i think i triggered
some people um certainly i i think i just trigger people by existing i don't know about you
but like i think i think that people just really don't uh like me and that's what i like you that's
okay you know i've never i've never been someone that just has to get everybody to like me or
something like that uh of course i try to make friends and i try to uh reach out and meet new
people and i love uh our supporters i love our fans on the show you guys are why we do the show
we have we have a pretty big audience tonight you know about almost you know 500 people someone said
i guess we got a lot of haters in the chat though someone says i love the bible q and a i would
concur with that those are always fun shows bible q and a yeah we got to do another one of those
those are fun um there's hate watchers for sure yeah we got it we got another caller uh we got
someone stephanie we're going to bring her on the show uh hey stephanie how's it going good how are
How are you guys?
Doing great.
Where are you from?
I am from Maine.
Wow, that's really north.
Is it cold up there already?
Well, actually, I used to live in northern Maine, now I'm like central Maine.
Okay.
So, to me, it's still warm.
It was like winter in the middle of warm.
What is warm?
Tonight, it's probably like 50.
Okay.
I didn't actually check, but...
That's cold for me.
Yeah, like people here would be wearing like a coat and a hat and like scarves and stuff
like that.
That would be chilly.
If the first number, if the first digit starts with a six, I'm grabbing a jacket.
Thanks so much for calling in.
Did you want to make a comment or ask a question or...
I guess I had both.
I love your show.
Like, I really enjoy it and so I wanted to thank you for what you do.
And I guess just as a comment, Pastor Anderson was joking about how that people listen to
people when they buy dial and stuff like that.
And I was very curious, I have to say, when I saw that you had talked to John on the phone
and, you know, that that was the whole thing.
But I wanted to tell you that I actually had more respect for you even after watching that
video because I thought you were an awesome peacemaker.
I was like, boy, I respect him even more because there was nothing, I didn't think anything
condemnable when you didn't even know that people were going to be listening.
So I just thought it was handled very well in my opinion.
I think I made things worse, but I appreciate the sentiment because the spirit of the call
was me to just try and talk people and just try to level with them and try to help encourage
them to make the right decision.
I think I was trying to do the right thing.
I kind of wish I hadn't got involved in hindsight, but I wasn't trying to hurt anybody's feelings
or bring up controversial topics or something, but it is what it is.
Thanks for being a listener.
Well, obviously they say characters, what you say or do when you don't know that somebody
is listening.
I just thought you did an awesome job.
On that note, I just wanted to say that as a woman, I can definitely say that women do
absolutely say crazy, ridiculous things because I know I've said a million things like that
and especially post-partum.
Not all the time.
Everybody does.
I was just saying, of course, women, unfortunately, they can be very emotional and sometimes they're
really good with their words and they say things they didn't really mean in the moment.
It doesn't make them bad or evil.
I think men need to realize that that's reality so that they don't take everything so seriously
and personal and that when you go through your first fight in marriage, it's okay and
you can reconcile and you don't have to take everything as gospel truth or something.
Sound marriage advice right here.
Yeah.
Well, I know my husband heard me say absolutely ridiculous things, especially after I have
a baby.
So it is true, but I guess one of my other things I wanted to say was that all this week,
my husband and I have been talking about all these things and like, "Well, what do we think?"
Anyway, I actually do know a couple, a Christian couple that I completely respect and I know
that they practiced to that in their marriage and they raised three godly kids and one of
them went to house Anderson and has won a bunch of people to Christ and like, I guess,
you showed that video of like John Wayne and everything.
It's kind of embarrassing.
I just wanted to help people realize it's historical.
Well, it is and you kind of wonder like, "Well, how do people view in history and everything?"
And obviously, there's a million ways that you could apply that and it could be go from
maybe okay to really terrible like you guys said.
But like, I don't see that it's always been in every situation a horrible thing, you know?
But I've seen some good families that, you know, apparently, you know, that was a little
bit...
How much do we have to pay you to come on here and say this?
I'm just curious.
Actually, I really love this family that, you know...
That I'm speaking of and so I'm like, when I think of it, I'm like, "Well, they turned
out fine," you know, whatever, you know, but...
And then I've always been curious, this may be a nosy question, but I always wondered
if Ben was ever going to be a pastor.
Obviously, you seem like pastor material, but maybe I'm not supposed to ask that.
I always wonder.
You know, we never know the future, so...
I mean, it's just not something I...
I think that a young man, they could have that desire and there's nothing wrong with
the desire, but once you feel it...
And I do have that desire, but I just don't focus on it because I'm focused on what's
going on in my life right now and just being a good church member.
And I operate like it's not going to happen, so that way I can just humbly serve in the
church and go about my business.
That's my attitude.
Well, selfishly, I like you working with me, so I'll just say it that way.
That's fine.
No, I appreciate that.
Do you have any other questions?
Yeah, probably not for tonight, but I have always wanted to hear one of you guys talk
on ectopic pregnancy in the sense like the procedures that you have to go through when
you have one and I've always prayed like, "Lord, please help me not to have one because
it seems like such a bad situation to be in."
Yeah, I'm not an expert on that subject, but I do know about it and it's definitely a difficult
situation and I think that when people are in really difficult situations like that,
God probably gives them grace.
I don't want to judge any situation because I think they're all unique and so I don't
know that I would really be an expert to talk about that, but obviously I'm about as pro-life
as you can get, but at the same time I understand there could be a complication and it really
is a serious situation and so I don't know.
I think that people who want to bring in all this pro-abortion stuff based on these like
super, super rare medical anomalies are just not very sincere or genuine and so, you know,
that's just kind of my opinion.
I don't know if you, do you know much about the topic pregnancy?
I don't want to talk about something I don't know about.
Sure.
So, all right.
Well, thanks so much for calling in.
We really appreciate it and really appreciate your comments.
Thanks for being a listener and watcher and God bless you up there in Maine.
Stay warm for as long as you can because I'm sure it's going to get cold pretty soon.
But thank you so much.
God bless.
Have a good night.
I think we have another caller, Alex.
We can bring him on.
Hey, Alex.
How's it going?
Hey.
Hello, Pastor.
I just had a brief question I just wanted to ask was in this context of the spousal
discipline, one of the metaphors brought up was the idea of like, well, if they commit
adultery, they should be dead, right?
And so what my question is, is that is, what would you view on church discipline in regards
to adultery, like versus like if I was someone wants to be continued married with their spouse
and then were to have an affair versus a divorce and remarriage.
And I guess the verse I just wanted to bring up to frame this would be Matthew 532, when
it says like, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication
causes her to commit adultery and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits
adultery.
So it's like, would that be the same like the same level of discipline in regards to
that person?
Okay, I think I understand your question.
I think when it comes to sins, like there's different levels of sin.
And so like with adultery, I think that there's different layers, like the Bible talks about
looking on a woman with lust.
That's a form of adultery, but it's a mild form in comparison to actual physical adultery.
And then I think that there's another form of adultery that you just brought up, which
is divorce and remarriage, which is a type of adultery.
But I think when it comes to the criminal code and the criminal law in the Old Testament,
that would have been limited to physical adultery and it would not be these other milder forms.
Just like the Bible says, if you hate your brother in your heart, you're committing murder.
But obviously that doesn't apply from a criminal code perspective.
We're not going to put people to death for thought crimes.
It's just simply saying it's a lesser, lighter form because you're not even technically put
to death for all manslaughter. It has to be that you're waiting with guile in your heart
and it's premeditated. That would be the only one that's actually receiving the death penalty
just outright. Then there's cases where it's an accident and as long as you could get to
the city of refuge, then you'd be free. And then there's ones where it's self-defense
and then there's just no punishment for that. So you see kind of like different forms of
murder and different forms of manslaughter and different forms of killing. And then you
see like different forms of adultery. So when it comes to church discipline, the Bible doesn't
say anything about adultery. It actually brings up lesser sins like fornication, which would
be kind of related, but it's not the same sin. And so my doctoral statement that we've
had on our church website, I've had it on God Resource for years, almost a decade probably,
has said that I believe that someone should be kicked out for all of the sins mentioned
in 1 Corinthians 5 and any capital punishment crimes, excluding things like the Sabbath.
But that being said, you know, if someone committed divorce and remarriage, I do believe
that the moment of them getting married is a type and a form of adultery, but that's
the only time that that sin occurs.
I think the rest of their relationship, that it's not like this ongoing sin, so you know,
I don't think that anybody should be kicked out of church for having been divorced and
remarried.
I think that it's wrong.
I don't approve of it.
I don't agree with it.
We'll never marry that person.
Our church will never perform that wedding.
But at the same time, I wouldn't throw someone out of church or church discipline for that.
If someone was in adultery and they're not repentant and they're not correcting that
behavior, then they could and would be church disciplined.
I think that that is between that couple and you'd probably have to, it would be grievous
sin that you would have to deal with.
But I do think that those things are separate and it would be in an unrepentant manner that
they're continuing this lifestyle that they would have to be addressed.
So I hope that, does that kind of answer your question?
Oh, yeah.
No, no.
That puts it into context because like, for example, when David committed adultery, that
was an affair.
So that's why when Nathan told him that he should like the actual death, there should
be the death penalty applied, but I guess I could see the difference when like, yeah,
when you frame it that way, where it's like, will you commit adultery in your mind versus
divorce and remarriage, it's much different in terms of degrees when you actually have
to bow with your current spouse and then you didn't separate and you know, deceive them
by that way.
So no, it makes sense.
Yeah.
And I mean, the sad reality is probably everybody has bad thoughts and so we were all guilty
of sin.
And that was the point.
I think Jesus was trying to just make it clear.
We all sin, even if you've never commit physical adultery, we've all probably had bad thoughts
and done things that we shouldn't do.
And so the point of what Jesus was making is no one could say they're without sin.
No one is perfect.
And that's why we need a savior.
That's why we need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
So if you got through all of that spousal discipline, this is when you get saved, folks.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
No matter what you've done, no matter who you are, if you believe in Jesus Christ, he
gives you a free gift of salvation.
All you have to do is believe on him one time and once you're saved, you're always saved.
Jesus really paid it all.
He gives you eternal life.
And all this, this is what's so funny.
People are dying and going to hell every single second and we're like arguing the minutiae
of a doctrine that almost nobody champions believes is preaching, is teaching.
We've all come to the same conclusion.
I don't even know somebody that's preaching this and teaching this and everybody's like
so mad about it.
When the whole world's dying and going to hell, when Iran and Israel are about to start
World War III, when we're about to have Kamala Harris take over our country with like pure
communism and people are just freaking out and it's like, can we not tell this is a
spiritual attack? This is spiritual warfare. I don't know if Alex is still on the line.
Thanks for calling. You can drop him if you hadn't, but thanks for calling. Here's the
thing. We are in a spiritual battle and the new IFB is like at an all time high two weeks
ago or a week ago. I mean, we have like Verity Baptist Church breaking record attendance,
Steadfast Baptist Church breaking record attendance, First Work Church breaking record attendance,
more churches being started, more guys on the basically in the batter's box about to
get ordained, about to start more churches, about to do more missions trips, about to
get more people safe. You really think the devil's just going to lay down and just say,
you know what, I'm just going to let the new I of B do whatever it wants. Or do you think
he's going to try and rile up as much as heat, evil, lies, slander? I mean, what is the devil?
The father of lies. How does the devil attack? Through lies, slander, manipulation, deception.
You know, the Bible talks about evil workers. What they do is they seduce, and they seduce
you through lies. It's, you know, sometimes people put this in kind of a bedroom context,
but that's not always necessarily the context. Go to my screen here. Second Timothy chapter
three, verse 13. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being
deceived." So the Bible says as we get closer to the end times, we're going to have more
deception, more seduction, more evil, and it's going to be so difficult and so hard
that good people are going to get sucked into deceptions. Good people are going to get seduced
into evil. And we have to be vigilant. We have to be careful. We have to make sure that
we're right. And it's hard. This is not just always super easy. And you know, I've gone
through a lot of battles and a lot of times where I'm just going to be honest, like I
didn't know what to do. I've gone back on both sides. I've struggled. You know, I'm
human just like the rest of y'all. But this is what I do know. I want to make sure that
I'm still in church. I'm still reading my Bible. I'm still going soul winning. And
I think the worst thing you can do is leave a soul winning church and stop soul winning.
Stop reading your Bible. Stop doing the work. That's what the devil wants. The devil wants
us to bite and devour. The devil wants us to have discontentment. The Bible wants us
to get all upset with each other over minor little grievances that don't even matter.
Things that are never going to happen. Things that nobody's even saying. People want to
just get all upset. People want to get mad about a church they have nothing to do with.
They're never going to go to. That they have no control over. And that they're going to
make their decision of how they're going to go to church or what they're going to do based
on that. Think about this. What if someone said, "I'm not going to go to this church
because of a completely different church and their decisions that this church has no power
and authority over." Like, who's really in a cult at that point? It seems like you're
following someone somewhere else, something online, some drama or some weird thing that's
going on. You know, that doesn't seem legitimate. You know, when it comes to a doctrine that
nobody's doing, nobody's teaching, nobody's applying, and you're going to get so offended
that you just won't serve God anymore, you know, that's just not right. Now again, no
one has to go to a new IP church to serve God. No one has to go to Steadfast Baptist
church to serve God. There's plenty of great fundamental Baptist churches, there's plenty
of King James churches, there's plenty of so many churches, you know, so you can serve
God wherever you're at. But like, pull up our poll. Are we really going to say like
half of our group can't serve God? Because, oh, I'll put it on my screen. I think I can
pull it on my screen. Just pull up my screen and I got the poll. Yeah. Here's our results
folks on Spells of Discipline. The vast majority say it's never appropriate. So there you go.
The vast majority disagree. They say 59 votes. They disapprove. 51 votes said they can't
condemn it. And so, you know, I think the poll closed at this point. It was pretty close
actually. 110. Yeah. So 54, 46, not quite 50-50. And the winner goes to it's never appropriate,
never condemned. And you know, hey, that holds some weight in the sense that, you know, I'm
sure a lot of people that listen to our show are Christians, spirit-filled men of God,
people and women and people that definitely, you know, really take the Bible seriously
and we can see that it was, you know, a split decision. So I can respect that. I can, you
know, I can respect the other position. Frankly speaking, it would be easier for me to believe
that because I don't even want to encourage it anyways. And I'm not going to, I'm sure
there's going to be so many videos. Did you see what the Baptist Bios did? This is what
they're going to do. Did you see this video the Baptist Bios showed? And then they're
going to show that video. Yes. And they're going to be like, did you see Pastor Shirley
say this word? And then they're going to show a video of me saying that word. And then they'll
say, did you hear this horrible music? And then they're going to show that music. And
then they're going to make their own music with AI. And they're just, they're just like,
really instead of actually going out and preaching the gospel this week, they're going to make
more videos attacking churches that they hate. Like those are their life. There are people
who their entire life is just making videos against churches they don't like. And then
they're going to make podcasts and have all these people come on and just trash churches
that they don't like. And then make posts about church they don't like and just focus
on churches that they don't like. And you have to ask yourself this question, like whose
side are you even on anymore? Like, Hey, call someone out, move on. Like, why do you have
to just obsess? And it's just weird. It's just so weird how people just obsess with
new IB churches, obsessed with new IB, new IB personalities. And to the point where they
commit literal crimes, folks. And we've had people, we've had judgments come in our favor,
civil judgments, condemning people who have stolen our money. We've been evicted. We've
been sued. We've had people break our windows. We've had people damage and vandalize our
property and commit all kinds of crimes. We've had people just obsess and just stalk us and
dox me. I've been doxed so many times and people are just sharing all kinds of weird
interviews, secret recordings. This isn't, I've been secretly recorded so many times
and people just uploaded the internet and they just, I mean, it's just like there is
a spiritual war folks. You need to get into church. You need to read your Bible. You need
to support your pastor. You need to love him and be gracious unto him. And, you know,
where you disagree, just disagree, but just don't, don't attack him. You know, if you
don't, if you don't appreciate some of the things your pastor says or does, that's fine.
Just be quiet about it. I've got a lot of churches that, you know, and growing up where
I don't agree with everything, but I just keep my mouth shut. I just serve where I can,
go where I can. You know, if there's a certain preacher online that you think is doing something
wrong or you don't like stuff, well, you know what? Don't listen to those sermons. Just
ignore those messages and listen to the messages you agree with. Listen to the stuff you like.
You know, we should spend more time listening to sermons that we like and people that we
like than listening to stuff that we hate and listening to people that we don't want
to listen to. And I think that as Christians, we need to walk in the spirit and not in the
flesh. And we need to try and think on things that are pure and lovely. And hey, if you've
marked somebody, go for it. You know, mark them and then move on. But like, at the end
of the day, we need to do our best to focus on the importance of getting people saved
and serving the Lord Jesus Christ and loving our wives and loving our families and doing
all the things that we can to do what's right. And I'm just sick of infighting. I'm sick
of Christians hating on other Christians. I'm sick of all the turmoil. And I'm sick
of the devil winning because the devil's winning when we're fighting each other. And even me,
with the Baptist bias, I'm trying to reach people that aren't even Baptist. I'm trying
to drag them in. And it's hard to want to drag, like it's hard for people want to be
drug into it, to the drama. It's hard. It's hard for me to want to drug in when they feel
like if they disagree slightly, if they have a bad opinion, it's like they're an evil person.
You're a wicked person. If you can't condemn spousal discipline, you're an evil, wicked,
Satan filled, wife beating, God hating, you know, in the flesh, horrible person. And it's
like, whoa, you know, like, really? Is that, is that what we've devolved to at this point?
Like shouldn't we in meekness instruct those that oppose themselves? I mean, if you, if
you genuinely and sincerely believe I'm wrong, can you at least level with me? Can you not
lie about me? Can you not misrepresent me? Can you try to have empathy towards me? You
know, I would love for some, I'm always willing to change my opinion. I've always said that
open the Bible, show me where I'm wrong. And you know, I'm ready to change on anything.
I'm ready to change on anything. And you know what? I'm not saying I'm right on everything.
I'm sure I've got, I'm sure I've got blind spots. I'm sure I've done things wrong. But
I'll tell you this. I want to be loyal to the Bible first. And then I want to be loyal
to my church. I want to be loyal to my family. And I want to be loyal to my friends. And
you know, I want to give all of them the benefit of the doubt. And I really, I really try to
do that to even my enemies. And you know, I preach whole sermons defending all kinds
of people in the past that had some issues. You know, people like Jack Hiles. I preach
whole sermons defending him. And you know, he had some rough spots. He had his family
like trashing him at times. He had his daughter going Ted talks, just trashing him saying
he's a cult leader and committed adultery. He had a husband come out and say that he
committed adultery. He had church members coming out saying committed adultery. It made
national news. He had to like go through all this like drama. J. Frank Norris had a guy
come in threatening to kill him for preaching against the Catholic Church. And he ended
up in the scuffle, shot him, killed him. And then he had to go on trial for murder. And
you know, there's been some serious, serious trials throughout the history. And I don't
think that 2024 is going to be the exception where there isn't going to be major trials,
major warfare, major attacks, major deceptions. And it's not going to stop because the devil
is wanting to drag as many people into hell with him as possible. And what a shame if
there was someone we could get saved and instead of getting them saved we were arguing we didn't
go to church because of a slight disagreement on spousal discipline being condemned or not.
Even when people say that they're not going to preach it. Like isn't that crazy? I went
on a rant, I'm sorry.
No, I was enjoying it. Keep going if you want. But I just think that it is absurd to drop
out of a church, to stop going to a church based on a difference that is so nuanced.
We both agree we're not going to practice this spousal corporal punishment deal, and
we both agree that it is not the best thing to do, that it doesn't work very well, that
we don't want to do it, and all that kind of thing. But then there's a nuance where
one side is just simply stating there's nothing in the Bible that can be used to condemn it,
okay? Or that the Bible is silent on this issue. So it's such a nuanced deal. And then
you're going to just drop out of a soul-winning King James only salvation by faith believing,
you know, reprobate doctrine believing, post-trib, pre-wrath, replacement theology. The doctrine's
dialed in. There's zeal. People love the Lord. The preaching's great. Tons of Bible. Great
influence on your kids. Great influence on your family. You can make lots of friends.
There's lost people out there to go out and win to the Lord Jesus Christ. You're going
to throw all of that away. The conferences, the mission trips, the opportunities to serve
the Lord like never before. We're going to throw it all away because of this little nuance.
I'll never get it. And look, obviously with some of the recent controversy, I'm not getting
into it. I've seen good people on both sides of it and I'm going to try my best to respect
people that have different opinions. But at the same time, I think that my encouragement
would be if you're out there and you go to a church and maybe you don't really agree
with what your pastor has said in the last few weeks or done in the last few weeks, I
would just encourage you to just give him grace and just go to church. Just support
your pastor. If you feel it's necessary to say like, "Hey, I just want to let you know
I kind of disagree. I don't really understand this," give him a chance to explain it to
you. But you know what? Just serve where you can. Love your pastor where you can. I know
a lot of new IFB pastors personally and they're some of the nicest, gracious people I know.
They really love the Lord. They really love their congregation. I hope that we can focus
on the true enemies of God here. It just seems weird for us to all just be hyper focused
on what other people are doing. I think we should try to be careful when we're not entering
into other people's business. I'm myself included. I can't say that every decision I made this
week has been right. I'll just be honest with you. My chest has been physically hurting
for the last week and a half. It's been a heavy weight. I know for a fact that I'm not
going through the worst of this even close to. There are other people and other friends
of mine. It's an unimaginable trial and evil. I feel very bad for them. I'm sorry that they're
struggling. I think that a lot of people are struggling that care about the NFB. They care
about some of the pastors. I hope that we'll take this seriously. I didn't know what to
plan for the show. We talked about a lot of spicy stuff, talked about some serious stuff.
I hope that people will give us some grace. I really appreciate our audience. I'm sure
some of our audience hates me. That's okay. I know that you'll watch me. You'll keep watching
me and you'll keep watching all of us. The caller didn't. She was nice. Yeah. That was
a pleasant caller. Thanks so much. Shout out to Steph from Maine. And shout out to Alex
from Dallas. Shout out to, I think we had Stephen from, what was it, Stephen from Indiana.
And then we had Brad. Brad, Stephen. Where was Brad from? Alex. Indiana too? Okay, yeah.
Stephanie was nice. Thanks so much. We have great fans. I agree. And then we have some
insincere trolls that are in there. Yes. But you know what, the trolls, you know, give us a,
you know, you got to give us a like or something at least, every once in a while. Hey, they're at
least helping our view count. Yeah, just every once in a while. One thing I want to add too
is that if you're a church member and you don't agree with, let's say, 100% of what your pastor
says, meaning that you're not in 100% lockstep and there are things that your pastor says from
time to time that you disagree with. I'm going to say this and it's going to sound mean. Just get
over it. There is not another human being on the face of the planet that you will 100% agree with
all of the time. It doesn't exist. It doesn't happen that way. So don't nitpick your leadership
and just on the smallest of issues decide because your pastor's not in complete lockstep with you
that you're just going to throw everything out, throw the baby out with the bathwater
and walk out of your church and miss out on opportunities to serve God and earn spiritual
rewards in heaven. Just have a little bit of perspective is the point I'm making. And if you
come to your pastor with something and he doesn't agree with your viewpoint, there's a radical
concept known as agree to disagree. It's all right. He doesn't want to condemn something you do.
Great. Teach your family that and go about your business.
You know, I want to make kind of a plea here with you about church. And this is,
I think if you actually believe the Bible and you're a Christian, please consider this.
We cannot fight against God. Whatever God wants is going to happen. And I think that, you know,
sometimes we just have to say, you know what? God's in control. Whatever is going to happen
with the churches of the new, of the new IFB or former new IFB or old IFB or Baptist or other
Christians. Like whatever God wants to happen is going to happen and we can't fight against him.
And I think sometimes we need to just trust, we need to trust God's ability to avenge. We have to
trust God's ability to, to take care of things. I think if someone were to resist God, they're
going to have an inevitable destruction. It's just, it's just period. And I think for us, like we can
just say, you know what, I'm going to go to church and support my pastor and we'll let God, you know,
deal with the situation. And you know, I pray because we, because there's been good people
split on both sides. I hope that God will be gracious to both sides and any controversy,
you know, I hope that God will spare those who have maybe been on the wrong side of things.
And you know, I think that's biblical because the apostle Paul, he says specifically about
people turning against him, he said at my first answer, "No man stood with me, but all men
forsook me." And he said, "I pray that God would not lay it to their charge." So the apostle Paul,
having the biggest heart of probably any Christians to ever live, had a bunch of people turn on him
and do him evil, but yet he still prayed that God would be merciful to those people.
We see in Job, his friends need prayer because they made some mistakes in the criticisms that
they hurled at their friend and they were confused about the situation. And Job prayed for them and
God was merciful unto those people. And I think in any of these situations, sometimes you're
going to have people on both sides and I think time will tell. And just think, I'm not above
being wrong or changing my mind. And I think that we can all sometimes be humble and say,
"You know what? In hindsight, I should have made a different decision and maybe God was gracious
unto me." And so I hope that we realize that God's will is going to be accomplished.
God always blesses what's biblical best. And I think we should all try to avoid railing and
attacking, trying to hurt churches. I think we need to try and do our best to do good
under the people that we disagree with. And I hope that someone out there that was on the fence of,
should I attack or do evil, that maybe they would say, "Okay, I'm just going to cool down.
I'm just going to let it go. I'm going to serve Christ and focus on the good." Is that a reasonable
plea? I mean, can we fight God, Ben? No, not at all. And we want to make sure that we don't
find ourselves on the side of any conflict that is fighting against God or the Lord's anointed,
anything like that, discounting those who are just false prophet reprobates or sodomites or
something like that, who may be on the opposite end of this. There could be some good people
on both sides, like you described, and it is important to show some grace there. And it'd be
nice if they showed us a little bit of that, but instead we're just referred to as evil. And now,
of course, we just want to beat the crap out of our wives every day, apparently.
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people tuning in are going to watch this show hate me. And you know what?
I'm not going to hate you back necessarily. If you're a reprobate, then I hate you. But,
you know, if you're not a reprobate, I love you. If you're not saved, get saved. Watch the Bible
way to heaven. If you are saved, give me grace. I'll try to give you grace. Obviously, I'm going
to call it slanderers and railers and I'm still going to do my job. I'm still going to preach hard.
I'm still going to preach the Bible. I'm excited about church this weekend. We got a kids'
conference and I'm really excited to try and pour into some of those kiddos and try to encourage
them to serve the Lord. Pray for Steadfast Baptist Church. Pray for our friends. Pray for Baptists.
Pray for Christians. Pray for this difficult time that we're living in the world because frankly,
a lot of people are being killed all over the world. There's a lot of warfare. Our government's
going downhill faster than we can even keep up. The censorship is extreme. There's a lot of
need for good. It's a dark world. It's a very dark world and we appreciate our audience. Thanks
for tuning in live. We have some great guests coming up for the end of the season. We've booked
some awesome guests. You want to keep watching. We've got a few more shows. We're going to do an
election live stream. Join us, baptisbias.com/join. Thanks for everybody for being on the show with us,
the Collins and everything like that. Ben, I'll give you some final words and I'll wrap up.
Not much else to say other than we appreciate you guys tuning in to the stream tonight and
hopefully we were able to provide you with, I guess, a distraction or maybe just some entertainment
for the night, given that many of you are probably deeply involved with what went on over the last
several days observing it and things like that. But hopefully we were able to provide you with
something entertaining for the evening and also just covering a topic, spiritual warfare, that
the Bible heavily emphasizes and one that I think we were able to provide some more commentary on
tonight. Yeah, covered a controversial topic for sure, but hey, we're not afraid to approach
anything here and of course whenever we do we're going to make sure that we do it with a Baptist
bias. So there you go, I got the slogan in there. Pastor Shelley, I'll throw it back over to you,
but before I do, you are in a difficult situation as the leader of our church and I think that
I can tell that you always are wondering did I do the right thing here? Am I making the right
decision when I do A or B or C or D or whatever the case may be? All the time, you're always,
I think you're harshest critic, but I did want you to understand that your church members are
behind you and we're not Monday morning quarterbacks here. We realize the difficulty
of the decisions that you have to make and we got your back. That's all I wanted to say,
is we got your back. Well, I appreciate that and of course, sometimes you just have to make a
decision, just move on. And you know, if it's the wrong decision, well, we'll suffer if it's not,
but we can't just constantly try to figure it out. We got to sometimes just make a decision,
move on. You got a fork in the road, go left or right and try to make the best decision you can.
Praise God that he gives us so much grace. And you know what? I really appreciate you guys
tuning in live. I appreciate the chat, appreciate the comments, appreciate the poll,
appreciate all of you guys. Tune in next week, 8 p.m. The Baptist Bias. Everybody's got a
perspective out there, folks. You need to get The Baptist Bias.