- Hey everybody, thanks for joining us for the Baptist Bias.
And we have a really great show this evening.
It's gonna be on self-defense.
We have a special guest, Brother Chris Segura.
And of course we have been the Baptist
who's gonna kick us off with a Benalog.
- Let him sell his garment and buy one.
That's what Jesus prescribed for his disciples,
for them to buy a sword.
And as this world descends further and further into chaos,
it's something that I think all of us should take heed to
as well with violent crime on the rise.
The love of many is indeed waxing cold.
And there are seemingly more random acts of violence
that I'm noticing on the news than ever.
More people are stealing, looting and rioting.
More people are being driven to insanity by the media
and by the godless education system.
So instead of allowing yourself to be a sitting duck,
victim of a demon-possessed Biden voter,
it might be time for you to learn how to defend yourself.
It might be time for you to own a weapon,
to buy a gun and to learn how to use it.
Unless, of course, you actually believe the mantra
of progressive so-called Christians,
and I use that term as lightly as possible,
who've twisted the character of Christ
into a dollar store Gandhi ripoff.
That's exactly what they've done.
That's what they've turned our Savior into.
Case in point, John Pavlovitz.
This is an American Unitarian fake pastor,
and he's an author as well,
who's known for extreme far-left social
and political pearl-clutching
that he posts on his website online.
He posted this, he said, quote,
"No, Christian, Jesus didn't say
"that you can have your guns."
He says, quote, "The cognitive dissonance
"of supposed followers of Jesus,
"choosing the side of violence
"and opposing the movement of mercy is staggering,
"exceeded only by the contention
"that Jesus says they can pack heat.
"There simply aren't any theological gymnastics
"wild enough to make it work,
"not with the Jesus who preached
"that those following in his footsteps
"would turn the other cheek to violence."
So we see here that Pavlovitz
is borrowing from the devil's playbook,
twisting the words of Christ out of context
to promote an extreme, limp-wristed form of pacifism.
Now, to be clear, Jesus is not teaching people
to turn the other cheek as a murderer
breaks into their home and attempts to kill them.
Now, if somebody tries to break into your home
to kill you or to kill your family,
Jesus isn't prescribing for you to turn the other cheek.
He's not teaching people to turn the other cheek
as some deranged, homeless lunatic
chases you with a butcher knife
because the voices in his head told him to do so.
That's not what he's talking about.
That's not what he means.
Jesus in actuality is referring to a physical assault
that would amount to nothing more than an attack
on your pride, a shove, a slap in the face,
even something a little bit more forceful,
but certainly nothing that would actually threaten your life.
That's what he's talking about.
The Jesus of scripture, contrary to the false Christ
of progressive fake Christianity commanded his disciples
to arm themselves.
It's so clear in scripture.
He said the good man of the house
would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
He taught David's hands to war and his fingers to fight.
Why?
Because self-defense is biblical.
Because self-defense is morally justifiable.
Being armed and ready to defend yourself
and to defend your family is in fact the byproduct
of being a man.
And it's also the byproduct of having a Baptist bias.
- Hey everybody.
Thanks again for joining us for "The Baptist Biased."
And I'm here with my co-host, Ben the Baptist,
and a little bit different studio set up this evening,
but really excited to still keep the show going.
We still have a few more episodes we wanna do this season.
And we have a special guest with us also,
Brother Chris Agura from Faithward Baptist Church.
But let's kick it back over to you, Ben.
How's it going this evening?
- Going great, thanks a lot for having me on the program
again for what should be a really intriguing show.
We're talking about self-defense.
And for some people who are, of course,
the members of the quote unquote progressive Christianity
that I talked about in the analog,
this is gonna trigger them.
This might trigger them into oblivion.
They might cry themselves to sleep tonight
if they tune into the show.
But you know, this is a biblical subject.
We're gonna look at it through the lenses of scripture.
We're gonna look at it with a Baptist bias as usual.
And I'm really excited to talk to our special guest
this evening from Faithful Word Baptist Church,
who I think knows a thing or two about the subject matter
that we're covering on this episode.
- Absolutely.
Let's say hello to our guest, Brother Chris Agura.
How's it going, brother?
- Going good.
Can you guys hear me?
- Hi.
- All right, man, I'm good.
I was nervous.
I wouldn't be able to talk to you guys
'cause I didn't have the right headphones,
but it turns out I don't even need 'em, so we're done.
- Yeah, well, I worked for Pastor Anderson,
but before that, you know, I basically came from California.
You know, I moved down here in 2009,
so I moved down here.
Ironically enough, I came across Pastor Anderson on YouTube,
and so I listened to him, and next thing you know,
I'm wondering about this guy
because he was preaching some things
that were the contrary to what my church
back in Northern California were teaching.
For example, the pre-tribulation rapture.
You know, our church was big on that,
you know, but I've never heard anybody that was Baptist.
You know, at that time, I'd already been going to church
for roughly about eight years.
You know, so really quick, I got saved.
You know, I believe it was back in 2003.
You know, then I ended up going to church.
I believe it was towards the end of 2004.
But then I got myself by God's grace
into independent fundamental King James only,
so winning Baptist church.
And so our church was pre-trib,
and our church believed in other things,
you know, that obviously are not biblical.
You know, but I came across Pastor Anderson,
and I listened to him, and I wasn't sure what to think.
You know, so I didn't know my Bible like I should have.
You know, and I decided, you know what,
one thing I know for sure is what salvation is.
One thing I know for sure is that eternal life
is the gift of God, and it's 100% by faith,
and of course the gift is free, no strings attached.
You know, so I ended up getting saved
because of that verse from a 623,
and nothing could shake me as far as I needed
to repent of anything.
You know, so when I came across Pastor Anderson,
I didn't know what to think,
because he preached a really good sermon.
He actually had preached on Bible college
while he was on scriptural, and during that time,
I was even thinking about, or had tried to go
to Bible college, but it didn't work out.
It wasn't let in.
So of course, I ended up just continued to go to church,
continued to go soul-witting,
just serving the Lord as best I could.
And when I came across Pastor Anderson
in the Preacher King's Bible college,
and I listened to him for about 20 minutes,
and I was like, wow, this guy is a really good false prophet
that now has changed my mind about Bible college,
or he's the real deal.
So I decided to figure him out a little bit more.
So I went to his website,
tried to find at least a plan of salvation.
He didn't have one, but I saw that he had a link
to audio sermons, so I clicked on that.
And then I saw some sermons on salvation,
I think it was one, two, three, repent after me,
or easy believism, so I clicked on that.
And after the first sermon, I knew he was the real deal.
He was hardcore, easy believism, like I've never heard before.
So that caught my attention.
Then I listened to another sermon on salvation,
then another one, he had about four or five of them
at that time.
So then after that, I was hooked.
I knew he was the real deal.
And I decided to just listen to other sermons,
and I started to grow.
And I grew more just listening to him,
maybe one sermon average a day for three months.
I grew more listening to him in three months
than I did going to church for eight years.
I was just blown away.
So there was an opportunity to be able to come down here
to Arizona, be a part of his church.
So I figured, hey, you know what?
This is the church that I think is the best church
in America, and this is back in '09.
And it wasn't a big church,
and I really couldn't tell what Pastor Anderson looked like.
There weren't a lot of videos out there.
But I knew he was the real deal based on the word of God,
based on what he preached, and not just that,
but his life, his sowing, was what also attracted me.
And so I decided back in '09, I had an opportunity.
I was like, hey, I'm gonna move to Arizona
and go join this church,
'cause I know it's gonna work out well,
'cause I agree with him on everything that he was doing,
so I really loved it.
So I ended up moving down here in 2009,
became part of the church, and got a job.
Just started raising my family out here,
and then I started having a few more kids.
And about nine years later,
it's when Pastor Anderson, he needed help.
So one day he just calls me up,
and he's like, yeah, I need to talk to you in my office.
I don't remember if it was before or after the service.
It might have been before the service.
And so I was wondering, like, what in the world?
So I decided, okay, no problem.
So he took me into his office,
and at the time he said, listen,
such and such is leaving, and such and such is leaving,
and I need help to kind of run things around here,
just little things, clean up, emails, et cetera, et cetera,
and I need to hire someone.
I'm interested in hiring you.
So that blew me away.
I mean, that was just a shocker.
I didn't think of that at all.
I thought I was gonna work-- - Shocked everybody.
- Yeah, well, it blew me away.
I just didn't know what to say.
I honestly thought-- - I'm just kidding.
- Listen, are you sure?
'Cause there's a lot more people
that are way more qualified than I am
and are doing a whole lot more than me.
I mean, I was just like, are you sure about that?
And he's like, I'm very sure.
Are you sure?
I'm like, well, I mean, when the pastor of your church
is asking to help them save people,
save their souls from hell, how could I say no to that?
So I was still kind of wondering if I should.
I don't think I gave him a straight answer that day.
I think I told him to think about it.
Then I spoke to my wife and I basically told her,
I don't know, there's a lot more guys
that think are better for the job.
And so I was gonna tell pastor no,
but then my wife's like, hey listen,
it was something to this degree.
You've been following his faith for the last nine years.
I've asked him for advice on maybe a handful of things
and I took his advice and it worked out extremely well.
From the job that I chose to even buying a house,
I went up to him and he gave me answers to those
and I went up to him just fully wanting to know the truth
and being willing to just make a decision
based on what he says.
And so of course, that just kind of made me think,
you know what, she's right.
I need to just follow him.
If he thinks I'm the right guy for the job,
I've been following his faith for the last nine years,
who am I to start doubting him now?
So I said, forget it, I'm gonna jump in
and do my best for him.
And that's basically how I got this position.
So I'm his assistant right now.
So I just help him with the same thing.
I've been helping him four years ago when he hired me,
I believe it was around four years ago,
just cleaning up the place, keeping things organized,
running, soul winning and anything and everything,
like a Swiss Army knife, whatever he needs,
how many places, anywhere.
That's pretty much what happened is he hired me
and that's what I do today.
So my background as far as self defense,
obviously every kid grows up wanting to learn
how to defend himself in case he needs to.
I didn't grow up in a safe area,
so I'm always wondering what would I do
if I did get attacked and ended up going to schools
where there were a lot of bullies and not just bullies,
but just guys that thought they were hardcore
and just tough guys.
So of course in middle school,
you had kids doing all kinds of stupid stuff
and beating people up left and right.
So I always was interested in martial arts.
And of course, when I went to high school,
it was a little bit safer,
but I still had that self-defense mentality
that man, I would like to,
besides what I see in movies,
I don't really have any martial arts
or any type of self-defense training
until I finally got into like an organization
that teaches it for an occupation and that was the military.
So I joined the Marine Corps when I was 16
and I ended up leaving a little bit right after high school.
And so that's where I got my first experience
with self-defense and I loved it.
I thought it was great.
I was like, wow, this is amazing.
And it wasn't what people usually think.
What they were teaching us was self-defense
that you use when things really get crazy
'cause there was stress in the military.
Don't use this unless your life is threatened.
So they started to instill in me from the get-go.
It's like, hey, the stuff that we're gonna do
or teach you is very dangerous.
It can cause people to be severely hurt.
So only use it as, I guess you can say,
like a life-threatening situation.
And so they taught us different moves.
They taught us ethical rules of when you should use it.
So I think it's very important
that people understand biblically what the Bible says
because after I got out of the military,
started to fall into some false doctrine,
primarily coming from the Jehovah's false witnesses
that made me feel like I was being wicked
because I believed in participating in martial arts,
whatever the discipline may be.
You know, so I first heard that, you know,
like the Bible says that the Lord hates, you know,
a man that loves violence.
And that was one of the things
that the Jehovah's witnesses started to teach
and I fell for it where I felt like, well,
I mean, I love self-defense.
I think it's smart.
I mean, I don't know the Bible that well,
but if the Bible says that we shouldn't love violence,
I confuse self-defense with violence.
And I'm glad you're doing this show
because there may be a people out there as well.
There may be some crystal girls out there
that could fall for this.
We sissify Christianity where they make you think
there's something wrong by standing up for yourself
or your friends or your family
and be willing to even if you had to take someone's life,
and basically in self-defense,
they seem to wanna just let you just believe
that there's something wrong with that.
If you have that type of mentality,
because that's where I'm at right now.
I mean, it would take something serious for me
to put my hands on someone, something super serious,
but make no mistake, because I believe biblically,
I have the right to defend myself,
up to even taking someone's life if I have to,
you know, if it comes down to it.
So that's why I'm here, and that's what I wanna do,
is just basically talk about self-defense,
because it is something that I believe is biblical.
We should be able or have the right to defend ourselves
with whatever weapons or whatever means possible.
You know, the situation is that severe.
But obviously, if somebody's talking trash
or saying something a little like that,
that's another story.
But anyways, that's pretty much where I'm from,
or where I'm coming from.
- Well, I really appreciate you sharing your testimony,
and I definitely can say this.
Whenever you got hired, it was a major difference
from the previous employment, Tyler Baker.
Wow, 'cause that guy was just lazy, just normal,
but you were such a hard worker
that it was such a night and day difference
that it just made Tyler Baker look like the worst worker
in the world because you were just so hard working.
And definitely, I think everybody at the church could tell,
Brother Zagura is a super hard worker.
He's a real humble guy.
And definitely somebody you want in your corner
if you ever need to employ some self-defense.
And I think it's kind of silly to think that God
would just hate any kind of self-defense
or any kind of fighting,
considering the entire Old Testament.
I mean, just the entire Old Testament is just filled
with fighting and war and all this stuff,
and sanctioned by God.
So in the Bible says, "I am the Lord, I change not."
So how would we just completely just change narratives
to where God's saying in the Old Testament,
"Fight all these people and defend yourself and go to war,"
to just a complete pacifist,
like there's no fighting whatsoever.
Now, of course we realize in the New Testament,
there has been a shift.
Instead of fighting physical battles,
we now only engage in spiritual battles.
When it comes to war time,
God doesn't want us to go and destroy other nations.
It was a symbol to be used for the spiritual warfare
that would take place in the New Testament.
But at the same time,
the show is dedicated on self-defense,
which is a completely different topic
than war or violence.
There's a clear distinction between these two.
And I think it's gonna be important
to kind of draw those distinctions out,
talk about some different verses here.
What did you think about Brother Segura's background here?
- Well, I think it was interesting, Brother Segura,
when you were first offered the position
that you kind of said, well, you know,
what about other options or things that,
that just shows the humility there.
I mean, you weren't just like, what took you so long?
I mean, come on, right?
You should have picked me all along.
So I thought that was kind of cool.
Yeah, I mean, you know, at the end of the day,
I actually had no idea.
So this is a Jehovah's Witness doctrine
that self-defense is wrong,
that you can't use lethal force if necessary,
even if your life is in danger.
Like, that's what they actually teach their people?
- Absolutely.
I got it from just reading some material,
and there was a guy who was into karate.
You know, he gave his testimony,
and then he made a claim that after reading,
you know, what the Bible said,
i.e. what the Jehovah's Witnesses taught them
out of context, you know, he chose to give up karate,
and he chose to be nonviolent,
and he chose to never, ever want to put his hands
on anyone ever again.
You know, so that was the first time that I heard it that way.
And yeah, you see the scriptures.
You know, I mean, I can't quote it right now,
you know, as I'm just trying to think of talking and,
you know, et cetera, but it's to the degree where,
you know, he that love it violence, the Lord hate it.
And so of course, you know, it is what most people say,
you know, it's a violent, you know, self-defense,
martial arts or whatever, you know,
they use that word violence,
but it's not the same as when you look at it
in a biblical perspective, because, you know,
I got this from Pastor Anderson.
Violence, you know, look at the first letters
of the word violence, you know, it's violate.
So pretty much you're hurting people, you know,
that are not necessarily like trying to just spar with you
or maybe box with you or train with you.
It's not something that's mutual.
It's just you hurting people.
That's not the same as self-defense.
This is gonna hurt people when you're defending yourself,
but there's a big difference between defending yourself
and just being a brawler, just loving to get in fights.
And yes, there has been Christians that I've spoken to
that they didn't think there was anything wrong
with just brawling until they started getting
into the word of God and they realized, man,
what am I doing?
I didn't realize that the Lord has issues with this.
But yes, there was Jehovah's Witnesses.
It was a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, I will call it,
where it started to make you think that any self-defense,
karate, boxing, whatever,
they consider those violent, I guess, sports,
and that we should have nothing to do with them,
and that you should never hurt someone
or whatever for any reason.
But that's clearly not the case when you see scripture.
And just common sense-wise, I mean,
we do have in this country still the right
to defend ourselves via weapons or whatever.
But that's pretty much what my experience has been.
And that's the first time I ever thought
that being someone who's into martial arts is sinful
because of the way they twist the scripture.
- Well, let's debunk that.
Pastor Shelly, I see that you have a verse up on your screen.
- Well, I wanted to bring up,
I think the verse that you're thinking of
or people are using in this context in Psalms 11.5,
the Bible says, "The Lord trieth the righteous,
but the wicked in him that loveth violence,
his soul hateth."
So obviously the Bible and in other places,
it also talks about violence being a very negative thing,
the violent man, someone who loves violence.
And if you look it up in a dictionary,
violence is simply just to cause harm or injury to someone.
But I don't believe
that's what the Bible's definition of violence is.
I would suggest that violence is intending harm
to someone who's innocent.
That's the key word though,
that you're basically attacking or trying to hurt someone
who's done nothing wrong, who does not deserve it.
And this really helps encapsulate the various situations
someone could find themselves in.
You know, even sparring.
You know, you've already agreed with the person
that you're going to play by a certain set of rules
and it would only become violent
if the person were to go across those boundaries
or go across those rules.
And the same is just in society
that there's certain rules of behavior
that when someone crosses that threshold,
that's what becomes violent.
But if someone is attacking you,
the question is then are you licensed
to essentially defend yourself?
And I believe one of the best passages to go to
is in Exodus 22.
And it's the law and the Bible says in Exodus 22 verse one,
it says, "If a man shall steal an ox or a sheep
"and kill it or sell it,
"he shall restore five oxen for an ox
"and four sheep for a sheep.
"If a thief be found breaking up
"and be smitten that he die,
"there shall no blood be shed for him."
So according to the Bible, when it's talking about theft
and it's talking about people stealing,
it says very clearly that in the process or the commotion,
if a thief is caught and there's a scuffle
and the person gets hit or smitten,
it doesn't necessarily describe with what.
It could be a rock, it could be a fist,
it could be a sword,
could be even a gun and a modern vernacular.
If that person's smitten and dies,
the Bible says that the person who did that
is completely guilt-free.
Like there's no punishment, there's nothing
to be punishing him for,
but it does have a caveat in the next verse.
It says in verse three,
if the son be risen upon him,
there shall be blood shed for him,
for he should make full restitution if he have nothing,
then he shall be sold for a sept.
The Bible basically describes
that if someone's stealing your stuff at night,
kind of all bets are off because your life is in danger,
you don't really know what the motives
or the intentions of this person is,
and so if you catch this person, it's at night,
he ends up dying as an, you know,
not a good circumstance, basically,
not something that people wanted to happen necessarily,
but just in self-defense, that there's no punishment.
The only punishment would be
if you catch someone stealing in the daytime
and you just kill them for that,
theft is not a sin worthy of capital punishment.
- That's right.
- And I think that's definitely for a lot of cases.
You know, there's a lot of white collar crime,
like people stealing money electronically,
or maybe someone steals a $20 bill out of the cash register,
or maybe employees take some merchandise
from their employer, you know, it's caught on camera.
Obviously it wouldn't be right to just put those people
to death for that particular theft.
But if someone's breaking in your house at night,
and especially an armed robber,
I mean, you don't know what their intentions are,
they could cause you or your family harm.
The Bible's making it clear you are within your rights
to defend yourself, even up to killing that other person
if necessary to defend you and to defend your house,
and arguably to defend property.
Which is interesting because in the state of Texas,
and a lot of states I've seen recently,
they're suggesting that property is not worth dying for,
but here in the Bible, it's saying if it's at night,
and essentially you're trying to defend your property
because it also could be your life,
that that's really killing is on the table.
So taking someone's life is on the table
in that particular scenario
because it's not just the theft.
It's the theft with the combination
of your physical safety is at jeopardy.
And so you have that right there to defend yourself.
Now, if this is in God's law,
how could you ever say that God's against self-defense?
Jesus didn't die on the cross so that now people can rob you
and you just have to basically just take it on the chin
or something like that. - That's what people think.
- Isn't that, I mean, is that what the Jehovah's Witness
are basically instructing?
I mean, someone breaks in your house
and you're just like, hey, don't take my TV,
take my stereo also.
- Right, turn the other cheek.
Or what if you have family living with you?
You have your wife, you have your children.
This doctrine is borderline, it's psychopathic.
What are you supposed to do?
If somebody comes in wanting to murder your family,
you're supposed to just kneel down in front of them
and let him do it?
I mean, what kind of man would do something like that?
- It seems like criminals came up with this doctrine.
- Yeah, it's like unbelievable.
What if there's a mass shooter who tries to mass murder
a bunch of people in the middle of a church service?
We're all supposed to just take it then?
It would be wrong?
It would be sin for somebody to pull out their Glock 23
and blow that guy's brains out?
Look, at the end of the day, you're gonna be met with lead
if you try to break into any one of our homes
because of the fact that we're normal,
because we're men and we wanna defend our families.
Any normal man would respond in that way
and would wanna meet a home invader
with as much force as possible,
not just to protect himself, but what about his kids?
What about his wife?
What kind of limp-wristed, extreme,
pacifistic, garbage doctrine is this
that says that you're supposed to just lay down
and watch some psychopath, demon-possessed freak
murder your children and murder your wife
because, oh, turn the other cheek.
What a horrible bastardization of the scripture
and taking it way out of context
to make the Bible look stupid.
And, you know, it was Jesus who said in Matthew 24,
but know this, that if the goodman of the house
had known and what watched the thief would come,
he would have watched and would not have suffered
his house to be broken up.
I understand that's a parable, but guess what?
Oftentimes we see that carnal truths are used
to illustrate spiritual truths, but guess what?
The carnal truth is still a carnal truth.
It's still true.
It's still right and we can still use it for doctrine.
And what do you think the goodman of the house
would actually have done to not suffer his house
to be broken up?
We should have read that guy nursery rhymes.
Okay, I think we all know what's being implied there.
He was going to love him to death.
Brothers and girls, why don't you, you said that, you know, when you kind of looked at
the scriptures, you ended up changing your mind.
Is there any verses in your mind that kind of changed your, your view on this particular
doctrine?
I mean, I would say something to the degree where just recently, just thinking of like
Esther, you know, Esther and the Jews, you know, where they were basically begging the
king, Hey, you know what, you know, don't let us get destroyed.
This is after Haman was killed.
And I mean, I just pulled it up right now is Esther eight 11, where it says we're in
the king granted the Jews, which were in every city to gather themselves together and to
stand for their life, to destroy, to slay and to cost the parish, all the power to people
in the province that would assault them.
Think about that.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a good example also of self defense.
They're not going out looking for people to attack.
They're basically saying, "We want to defend ourselves from attackers."
Yeah.
And the king, he did a righteous thing.
He granted them permission.
I mean, it says, "Hey, you guys are allowed to kill, to defend yourself."
I mean, cost to parish, that means to kill people.
Right.
It's like, whatever you guys have to do.
And it says both little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for praise.
It's like, "Hey, these people come after you.
I'm not just giving you permission to kill them, in self defense, of course."
It's like, "I'll take their crap for being stupid."
So, of course, that's one of many versus, I mean, the other one that I thought of was
like Abraham, when Lot was taken captive, it says that he armed his trained servants.
I wonder why he armed his trained servants, you know, so they could just practice, you
know, fighting with swords for no reason.
It was to defend themselves in case they ever got attacked.
I'm just going to bring that up, Brother Surgura.
It's funny you mentioned that.
I just wanted to butt in and say that we were thinking the exact same thing.
I was going to bring up the Abraham situation.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
No, it's because it says they were trained.
They weren't training for no reason.
They were training for self-defense, period.
I wanted to just real quickly mention this in 2 Chronicles 23.
This is one of my favorite talking points, I guess, about this subject.
In verse 9, it says, "Moreover, Jehoiada the priest delivered to the captains of hundreds
spears and bucklers and shields that had been King David's, which were in the house of God."
Put that in your anti-gun, limp-wristed pacifism pipe and smoke it right there.
The house of God contained some weapons, my friend, and they were used to guard the eventual
coronation of Joash from Athaliah, but I'm telling you, that right there, I love that.
You have these weapons belonging to King David, which were in the house of God, and you know
what?
The houses of God that belonged to the new IFB and other independent fundamental Baptist
churches are also filled with guys that are packing heat, if you will.
Rightfully so.
Well, and you know, I like the idea of talking about weapons.
You use this verse in your catalog, you talked about how Jesus literally told them to buy
a sword.
Luke 22.
Which, you know, at the time is probably the deadliest weapon that they really have.
I mean, you kind of, you have bows and stuff, but in a close proximity and close range,
the sword is kind of your primary weapon.
Today, the sword, you know, it's kind of like a knife or whatever.
We don't, you know, people don't really carry swords around, but the modern equivalent is
really a gun because, you know, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight unless you're
just in really close proximity.
The gun is going to win 90 some percent of the time, assuming the person can even kind
of aim.
But, you know, when it comes to weaponry, it's interesting because in Europe, they have
certain countries in certain areas where when someone is attacking you, you can't go above
their level of force.
So like if they come with like a 13 inch knife, you can't come with like a 14 inch knife or
something something bizarre.
Or like I think if they come with like a bat, you can't come with a knife or something like
you can only go to like their level of defense.
You'd have to look it up.
Exactly.
We should look it up while we're on the show.
I've heard that in Europe, they literally have, maybe someone in Europe is listening,
but I believe they have certain laws that restrict the level of force that you're allowed
to use when you're being attacked.
Isn't that bizarre?
That is completely idiotic.
There's no logic to that whatsoever.
Well, it would only be logical again if you're a criminal.
Who's making these laws?
Who's making these restrictions?
It's funny because these people, it's oftentimes the same people who want to strip away your
right to defend yourself, who are then responsible for assaulting you.
And what I mean is it's the same demographic.
You look at a lot of these mass shooters, you look at a lot of these people who are
bent to behave violently and go out and commit atrocities.
They're often atheists, they're often evolutionists, they're often leftists, they're often people
who hate God.
So a bunch of God-haters want to strip us of our God-given right to defend ourselves,
and they're the exact same people who are responsible for shootings and murders, things
of that nature.
So it just goes to show that this is really, I think, one of the big hypocrisies out there
that comes from the enemy, is wanting to strip us of our ability to defend ourselves when
they themselves are responsible for most of the violence.
How does that work?
Well, there's a lot of good self-defense videos and things online.
Have you seen the ASP videos that are online, Brother Sakura?
It's a guy who walks through different self-defense videos and gives commentary.
Have you seen those?
No, I have not.
I haven't seen any of those.
All right.
I want to try and play a video clip here if we can for a moment.
I hope you can hear it with us, Brother Sakura, but if not, we'll tune you back in.
I want to play a little video clip here and I really like these self-defense videos.
This guy, have you seen these guys' videos before, Brother Ben?
Not prior to today.
I hadn't seen them.
They're pretty popular on YouTube and this guy kind of walks through a lot of self-defense
instruction, but I thought it'd be interesting to kind of watch this video and then kind
of talk about from a biblical perspective this guy's take.
I hope that we can pull this up.
He always kind of finishes his videos like you got to cover your ass because his company
is called ASP, so let's see if we can get this thing pulled up.
I don't know what kind of idiot would try to rob a gun store and think that's a good
idea, but we're about to see why it's not.
Hi everyone, this is Jon with today's active self-protection lesson out of Mableton, Georgia.
It's going to show us an armed robber here goes really badly for the armed robbers and
teach us some important lessons about being ready not only with your tools on you, but
with your marksmanship and with your training to go in the moment.
Shows us about what the realities are, what the true meaning of not drawing on a drawn
gun are, and about engaging multiple attackers successfully.
Just another day at the gun shop here, this silver haired gentleman is just getting into
the safe or whatever, and we see his other employee put his hands up because there's
an armed robber.
Well, this guy's going to go ahead and draw his own gun and start putting shots on target.
You see the gun slide off as he puts multiple shots in that first guy.
Second guy runs off, and now the fight is over, and our defender is going to go and
see what's going on.
I've sped it up just a little bit here so that we can kind of just get a sense of what
happens.
You can see all the dust flying everywhere because of other shots.
Now the other employee has a gun out as well, but all the fighting is over at this point,
and as the dust clears you can see that that bad guy has taken the room temperature challenge.
Now there are eight lessons from this one at least on our website.
Go and click through the link for more on that, but let's talk about some of the most
important ones here.
And what we're going to see first of all is these ambushes happen to us.
And what kind of idiot would rob a gun store?
I don't know, but we see this guy here, the first employee.
He's the first one that's got a gun pointed at him, and he complies, and I think that's
very wise because he has a gun just absolutely on him.
The guy has his attention on him, the gun out and on target on him, and so he complies.
So you don't want to draw on a drawn gun in that instance.
That was very wise.
Now, as the owner or whatever, this other employee decides, "Hey, he sees it."
You see him go back around, and I want to show you why we see him go off camera.
If you go to their website, there's actually this picture of the store from another angle,
and you can see these multiple safes on the left-hand side.
So what I'm seeing here is that the owner ducked around one of those safes so that he
could conceal his draw, so that he wasn't out there in the open, and now we're going
to see him go to work on these guys.
So we see his gun come out in the very bottom on the right-hand side here, and now look
at how dangerous it is.
I want you to see that that guy did swing the gun back over to him, saw it when he brought
it out.
So we have a very dangerous situation.
It wasn't quite a drawn gun, but awful close, but thankfully our good guy puts the first
shot on target, and you can see that starting to go.
That first shot starts to hit him, and we say it all the time, the first one to put
a shot on target is almost always going to win the fight, and thankfully in this case
it was a good guy.
Second shot starts going at him as well.
If you go back and you look at the originals on the timestamps on this, about a .3 split,
which in a defensive encounter is a very fast follow-up shot, he did a fantastic job on
that one.
Now we're going to see a third shot go into him as well, as he's trying to figure out
is this guy done, is this fight over in this guy.
Now he decides at that point, "Hey, I've given a serving to the first guy, I've got to go
over to the second guy and see what he's doing."
This is what we call the boarding house rules, I give that first guy a serving, two, three
shots, make sure that he's out of the fight, get over to the second guy before I come back
to the first guy, puts a serving on that guy as well, and now he starts taking follow-ups.
He gets firsts, now then everybody starts to look to get seconds, so he's taking six
shots at least now, and now he's going to look, nope, no more threat there, but I want
to notice this owner here, this guy is trained and you can tell, he's not just a gun owner,
he is a self-defender.
You can see great grip on that gun, great stance, great press out, and he looks over
back to both of them, does excellent follow-up work here, not only to see that the second
guy is going to come back to the first guy after he's dealt with the second guy to make
sure that he is completely out of the fight, and now he's going to go off and start his
follow-up actions.
Now would be the time he's taking six shots at least out of his 1911 to get that spare
mag, get a proactive reload going, would have been the right time just in case the fight
came back.
It didn't, thankfully, but that would have been the time to do it.
And I also want to notice here is this kind of keeps on going.
You can see that the second employee here does have his gun out now in case it comes
back, but you know what, you want to be careful with that, and he didn't draw his gun when
he had the gun drawn on him, which I think was wise.
Finally, one last thing that I want to see as everything clears up, you know, you got
to take those follow-up actions, and if you have to stay in the vicinity of a downed attacker,
one thing I want to notice, you can just barely see that they've left his gun there right
where it was, and I get not wanting to touch it, but I would slide it down the floor a
little bit just in case that bad guy came back to that he couldn't get over and get
his gun and continue to be a threat, but that's a very minor nit to pick.
I think that this owner did a really fantastic job, absolutely showed us how it was done
to cover our ASP.
That was good.
You know, could you hear that, Brother Segura?
Not from, no and yes.
I just went on there because I wasn't hearing anything for about 90%, but I just got on
there on YouTube and I was able to catch it.
So...
Kind of the last part.
Okay.
Well, essentially it was a gun store and a couple guys come in to rob the gun store.
There's two employees.
They get the first employee.
The second employee has kind of got his back turned, but as soon as he noticed, he kind
of, you know, it's insinuated.
The commentator says he thinks he probably kind of ducked behind his safe a little bit,
drew his weapon, pointed the first guy and got the first few shots off and then the second
guy kind of evaded and left.
And what I like about these guys' videos is he shows real life experiences or real life
situations because a lot of these you're not necessarily going to have real experience
in because they're so rare or they only happen a few times and they're always going to be
a lot quicker than you anticipate.
So it's kind of interesting to watch these and get a little exposure just to see what
real life situations are like because that was quick.
I mean the guys walked in and in less than a few seconds, I mean the one's down, shots
were fired.
And unfortunately that's what a lot of times happens in these situations when people pull
a gun.
Now a couple of comments I thought, I like the idea he said maybe you should put in a
second mag.
But I think it would depend.
Maybe his handgun has 15 rounds or maybe it's like 15 plus 1.
I think if it was a 15 plus 1, if I've only fired 6 rounds, I don't know if you take the
risk to, you know, swap mags.
But if you were a 6 plus 1 or something, maybe you only had 1 in the chamber, yeah I absolutely
think he probably should have switched mags whenever he kind of felt like it was coast
is clear.
One thing that was kind of weird is the second guy seemed to have some weird pointing with
his gun.
I didn't notice this but when the second guy was walking around with his gun it seemed
like he was just kind of like even pointing at his buddy and stuff like that.
I don't know if maybe he should have been aimed at the bad guy the whole time or maybe
pointed it to the ground a few times when his friend kind of walked through the crosshairs
a little bit.
It seemed like he was just kind of just there, he didn't know what was going on but you never
want to point a gun at anybody that you're not willing to pull the trigger on.
That's just gun safety.
Never one, you never want to point a gun, whether you think it's loaded, whether you
think it's not, whether you think the safety is on, whether you feel like you're in control,
you just don't point guns at anything that you don't, haven't decided already to pull
the trigger on.
But again, some good tips from that guy.
What did you think about the video?
Well, I think it was great that this person came in, this assailant, obviously to do
some damage, steal, do whatever he wanted to do and it just gets blown away in a matter
of five seconds.
It might have been even less than that.
Just boom!
Drops down into hell just like that and I hope that people who thought that they might
want to try and pursue this themselves look at this video and think otherwise because
man, he was ready.
You know, the Bible says the horse is prepared against the day of battle.
A lot of people kind of gloss over that and they focus on the part in Proverbs 21-31 where
it says "but safety is of the Lord" and I agree with that obviously.
But the horse is prepared against the day of battle and videos like this, when you watch
a video like that and you see how that gun store owner reacted and you see how quick
he was and how he drew his weapon when the enemy couldn't see him and then he turns
around and blasts the guy and he just drops down into hell, right?
He's prepared.
This is a guy who's prepared for something like this to occur.
This was a horse that was prepared for the day of battle and we see the result of being
prepared for the day of battle is reacting to a situation just like that gun store owner
did real quick, smooth, easy, and that was it.
The threat was neutralized quickly and efficiently and that's what you want to do.
You're shooting to live in situations like that passage.
You're not shooting because you enjoy killing people.
You're shooting to live.
That's the mentality.
Have you seen anything like that, Brother Zagura, in real life or maybe watch some videos
on some of these real life encounters?
No, I mean, really quickly, I agree with what Ben said, with people that are like, "Oh,
man, guns, this and that," and whatever.
It's like, listen, we obviously believe that we're probably never going to use our guns.
But like Ben said, safety is of the Lord, but what I like to add is that the Lord doesn't
want us to be stupid.
If you have the right and in your country you can have guns, that's probably the best
way to fight for your rights is to exercise them.
So have the open carry in the appropriate places.
But to answer the question, have I seen this?
Actually did see a video from this guy, I just recognized him when you pull him up.
But because I go to Mexico once a month and we've been going to Mexico once a month to
win souls, I was just wondering what would I do in case somebody tries to kidnap us or
whatever.
And this guy actually had a video on that where some guy was trying to get kidnapped
by what they believe was the Mexican cartel.
So I do like this guy's videos.
I've seen maybe a couple, I know one for sure, the Mexico kidnapping by the cartels and what
to do.
And they basically just showed you just got to turn the car and just keep going.
But yeah, these things help us to just kind of mentally prepare.
So why?
Because of course, we know that God can protect us, but let's just realize that God does
want us to prepare the horse for battle and these videos can help us do that by being
ready, helping us to mentally prep.
So in case these situations do come up, which I hope they never do, you know, but obviously
the Lord in heaven, if anything, wants us to just be wise and it's a wise thing to just
kind of wonder, well, what if, you know, somebody tries to kidnap us when we're in Mexico on
a missions trip, what would I do as a driver?
So this guy happens to have a video on that.
So I'm pretty much okay.
I think I'll be all right if that would have happened, but yes, you know, these videos
are my opinion, they're essential, you know, to let people know, hey, this is how it can
look like.
Obviously, there's sound and everything involved, but at least the visual is better than nothing.
Well, and I, fortunately, for Pure Words, we're representing Pure Words this evening,
we got to do a cool little challenge.
There's a gun range, it's kind of an indoor gun range that I took a lot of the guys to
as for just kind of a guys trip, and we got to shoot some automatic weapons, which was
nice.
And they have a like a virtual reality simulator where you are put in a real life situation
and then you have to basically give verbal commands and then try to decide if you need
to shoot or not and when to shoot and everything like that.
And it was really fun to watch people react in these situations because some people didn't
know what to do.
And I have to tell this one story, I've already told it before in a preaching one time, but
it's really funny.
So we had one guy and it was Elijah, okay.
But he was, it was his turn to go up and it was a bank robbery.
So he's basically, you're walking up to a bank robbery in progress and the three bank
robbers are kind of approaching outside.
They just walked out of the store.
They walked, it's kind of like in a mall setting, it's a bank in a mall.
So it's kind of open and he walks up and the three stand there and he points the gun at
them and he says, uh, drop the money and the three people are kind of like, they kind of
put their hands up or whatever.
And he's like, drop the money.
And then the guy drops his gun and then Eliza just shoots and kills all of them.
And I was like, this seems like you were stealing, you were trying to rob them.
Why did you say drop the money?
And then they dropped their gun and he blasted all of them anyway.
I was like, that's not going to look very good to witnesses.
It's probably not what you want to do in a bank robbery situation.
He comes in to be the hero and he basically just blast them as soon as they put their
gun down.
But that is hilarious.
I just had to share that.
My scenario that I went through was a college setting.
Like you were in an active shooter and they had some guy who I'm kind of coming up and
he's like, don't shoot, I'm so glad you're here or whatever.
But he was like lying to me.
He wasn't really, he was actually the shooter.
And then all of a sudden he ducks and grabs his gun.
But fortunately I put a couple rounds in him before he could kill me.
So it was kind of interesting.
But there was one, and I don't know that anybody would have been able to survive this one,
but it was like a home invasion.
And the person popped out and the guy blasted and killed them.
And then like it seems like it's fine.
And then all of a sudden just randomly another person pops out and shoots and kills you.
And it was like you just kind of like didn't anticipate the second person whatsoever.
And so, you know, it was good to go through that experience.
There was another one where it was a lady, the guy has a knife to her throat and the
guy is like trying to get him to put the knife down.
But it happened so fast that the guy slits her throat if you don't shoot him like almost
instantly.
And so I think, you know, actually going through those simulators and kind of seeing what it's
really like in these active shooter situations, how fast things go, you kind of almost have
no idea how quickly you would have to respond potentially.
And as soon as someone puts people in these type of situations, it's best to just respond
immediately.
Yeah.
Seems like very quick, just like that gun store owner.
I mean, he knew his life was a danger.
And so he just decided to just take his life in his own hands, a fire back and that was
probably his best chance at surviving or living in that situation because you never know how
those things are going to go down.
Exactly right.
You know, it would be a fun scenario.
So actually I'm not going to say that, never mind.
You know what, rather Segura, have you, because we're talking about simulation here and one
thing I wanted to ask you is have you ever been in a scenario where it was your life
or your assailant's life that you're willing to share with us?
Pretty much the closest thing is just combat.
When we got ambushed without hesitating like that Gunstar owner, you just naturally react
and start firing back, so all I can do is just fire back and try to focus.
That's pretty much all you can do in that situation because I noticed that pulling the
trigger is not that difficult when bullets are going your way, so I just started firing
back.
I just stayed calm, tried to stay focused, and I might have shot probably 10, 15 rounds
the entire time I was in combat, but some people just let loose.
They just fired and kept firing.
I kept to kind of yell like, "What are we firing at?" because I knew I only had so
many bullets.
So I wasn't about to just run out of bullets in my very first firefight, but that's about
the only situation I've ever been where we've got fired upon and actually fired live rounds
back.
Even though I didn't aim at anybody specific because I couldn't see anyone, it was just
an ambush.
Just like, "Hey, fire back immediately."
And that's all you can do.
It's like, "Hey, just fire back.
You feel you're in danger.
You see a gun.
Fire back.
Bullets coming your way.
You basically see where it's coming from."
But obviously I hope no one ever goes through that out here, just living their daily lives.
Well, a verse that came to my mind when watching that clip was in Matthew 26 verse 52.
Jesus is talking to Peter and Peter pulls out a sword and cuts off one of the servants
of the high priest's ear.
But then Jesus says this, "Put up again my sword into his place, for all they that take
the sword shall perish with the sword."
And I think while obviously we want to balance the scripture, we want to realize that self-defense
is important, we don't want to necessarily just fight people to fight people or be quick
to shoot someone or quick to call to arms, and basically it's kind of insinuating that
people that just live this really careless mindset, they're willing to just pull out
guns and they're willing to basically go to task with people and to fight people, they're
often going to lose their life from exactly that situation.
It makes me think of, and this is not a godly movie, but I even referenced in a sermon the
other day, but it's Troy and it's talking about Helen of Troy was this woman that was
taken into Troy and basically her previous husband is going, the Greeks I believe are
going to rescue her back.
But what happens is at the beginning of the movie, his, I believe it's like his mother,
it's some lady in the show, I think it's his mom or grandma, basically it sits him down
and says, you know, if you don't go and fight, you're going to have a wife and kids and
have a happy life.
But if you do fight, you're going to have a name for yourself, but you're going to die.
And I think that, you know, at least it's kind of similar to this verse about the fact
that if you're going to fight, if you're going to constantly go, you know, on the battlefield
and live by the sword, basically, as it were, live with the gun to your, attached to your
hip, ready to pull it in your moment, you're probably going to die because of it.
That's why we see a lot of gangsters and mobsters and young people that are constantly going
into shootouts and these things, they're going to die.
And so it's something that you want to take with a lot of soberness.
You don't want to be quick to pull out a weapon.
It's kind of a last defense.
It's not something that you have to necessarily engage in.
And when they were taking Jesus, there was no threat, necessarily physical threat.
They were just going to arrest him.
And so someone's going to arrest me for my preaching.
I don't believe that's the time to call to arms, to pull out a gun, to pull out a knife,
you know, but there is going to be a time to somewhat defend yourself.
And I have a clip.
I know you guys are anxious to say something, but I have a clip of someone interrupting
church service that I think Brother Zagura, you know, is aware of.
Might as well get his reaction.
Might as well get some feedback here.
I think he knows what's coming.
Let's play this clip.
I think Brother Tim's got it pulled up for us of a faithful word service, throwing out
some Trinity heretics, and there's somebody that wants to interrupt the service.
Can we play that clip?
Hey, sit down.
Sit down.
What are you coming up here to do?
You want to come take over the service?
Huh?
What do you want?
What?
I just want a prayer rep.
Get out of here.
Can I get a little grace?
No, you can't.
No.
You get out of here.
Get him out of here.
Drag this bozo out.
Pull him out.
Hey, help him out.
Get him out.
And you know what?
Anybody wants to come up here and take over the service?
We'll throw you out of here, buddy.
This church is not a free for all.
This isn't an open mic.
This isn't a karaoke bar, okay?
I'm the man of God here.
I meet the qualifications.
I run this church.
And if you don't like it, then get out.
This is not some church where every first time visitor and brand new believer and people
who've never even read the Bible are going to come up and take over the service.
Brother Segura, really, he acted quickly there.
He was like that gun store owner.
You're breaking the law of interruption of the service.
Can we get his reaction?
So we played the clip, and I'll give Brother Segura context because I don't know if you
heard their clip or not, and just FYI, I got a cookie break here so, you know, it's really
good.
This guy's chowing down on cookies.
We're live on the air.
This new podcast, sorry we can't send this email to you, Brother Segura, but they taste
really good.
So Faithful Word was having to deal with some serious doctrinal issues.
A bunch of Trinity denying freaks were in the church and they'd been thrown out and
then we had some kind of reverb where a few other people decided to start denying the
Trinity too.
We had to get them thrown out.
Well in the middle of Pastor Anderson having to deal with a severe church issue, severe
doctrinal issue, having to fire one of his employees who was faithful for a long time
theoretically, you know in the middle of doing this, some random visitor just walks up and
approaches Pastor Anderson and he's like, "Can we pray?"
And he's like, "No." And he's like, "Can I get a little grace?"
And he's like, "No." And then you see Brother Zagura just running across the room, putting
on these black gloves.
With eyeglasses.
And he's like, "You're breaking the law right now!"
And then they're like, "Throw this guy out of there."
And we see Brother Zagura and some other men help this gentleman out of the service.
And rightfully so.
What was going through your mind when that was happening, Brother Zagura?
Nothing.
I just reacted.
That's all I could do at the moment, you know, and just try to push him away and try
to get him to comply.
So that's why I was yelling at him, making it clear that he's breaking the law so he
can just leave, you know, because even though I didn't mention it in the beginning, you
know, I was in the Marine Corps, but as soon as I got out of the Marine Corps, also went
to the police academy.
You know, so in the police academy, they ingrained in you to be a peacemaker, even though you
of course don't see that, you know, because there's so many videos on YouTube where cops
are just beating up people, you know, doing all kinds of crazy things, shooting people,
you know, primarily they do preach, "Hey, you guys need to be peacemakers."
That's why it's called the, you know, Peace Academy, they didn't even call it the police
academy.
So, I was just thinking, "Hey, you know, let's try to just get this guy to comply verbally,
use that verbal judo that they teach you about," and obviously he wasn't, so then we had to
get physical, as physical as we could, you know, and we just started to just grab him
and push him, and we were willing to drag him out, lucky enough, his senses came back
to him, and he started to just walk, and he decided to just leave, you know, he wanted
to just grab his stuff from the chair, he grabbed whatever he brought, might have brought
a Bible, whatever the case, but we don't know who this guy was, and I don't think I got
to him fast enough, and I was even told by someone, "You didn't get to my husband fast
enough," and I agree, you know, because obviously at the moment, I'm not thinking we're going
to have to deal with a protester, I'm just thinking, "Hey, you know, we just kicked out
a few people, and I'm emotional, everybody's emotional," and then this guy on the wrong
day shows up, and of course, we don't know what to think of this guy, but it was clear
that he wasn't listening. At that point, I'm like, "Yeah, I've got to just drag this
guy out." That's the first thing that went to my mind, and I figured, "Okay, let's try
to see if this guy would just comply just by telling him, 'Hey, you've got to get out
of here, you're breaking the law.'" That didn't work, so we had to get physical, but we got
physical for about 10 seconds, and sure enough, he started to just kind of walk on his own,
but we made a few mistakes, and listen, if that ever happens in your church, and the
reason I want to say this is because it can happen, more likely it's going to happen as
your pastor preaches hard, that some idiot is going to go in there and try to disrupt,
but one mistake that we made, because now looking back, it seems like Faithful Word
is kind of the academy for other Baptist churches, like we're the tip of the spear for things
like these, you know, so learn from our mistakes, and here's one mistake, we took our eyes off
the guy once he left the building, nobody really paid attention to the guy, he left
and he started walking towards the street, nobody, I don't think anybody kept looking
on him, we kind of just wanted to go back to the service as fast as possible, but who
knows if this guy's going to his vehicle, who knows if he's going to his vehicle, popping
that trunk, getting the shotgun and coming back. That was a huge mistake. And the second
mistake as well is once you get somebody out, once you get them out of the building, you
have to call the police because who knows if he's coming back. So get the police involved,
even if they run, even if they take off, get the police rolling because you'll want them
in the area in case this guy gets worse. You could just pick up something, it could be,
who knows, even a traffic cone that you're using to block off some spots so maybe you're
saving it for whoever and they could just pick that up and use it as a weapon. So looking
back, I'm like, man, we made a mistake. I took my eyes off the guy. I should at least
told somebody, hey, keep an eye on him. But then again, we should have called the police
and make sure they rolled in, give the description of the guy telling me disrupted a service
because I don't know if it's the same in Texas, but in Arizona, you don't have rights. Once
you walk into a church building, private property, your constitutional rights go out the window.
You don't have the right to disrupt and say whatever you want. You don't even have the
rights to open carry. You don't have the rights to even carry if we don't want to. You know,
you walk through our doors, it's our way or the highway period. That's just how the laws
are right now. So if this guy doesn't want to leave with a verbal, we don't have to give
him a second warning. He doesn't have freedom of speech. He doesn't have to write for nothing
except get his butt kicked if he doesn't want to comply. You know, but that's the last resort.
So of course, get him out, drag him out. Hopefully he complies. Hopefully he's not a crazy individual
that we have to take down some guy on drugs or whatever. You know, but yeah, make sure
if you kick somebody out, you should call the police so they can at least, you know,
stop the guy and ask him what his problem is. And even warn them that if he comes back,
at least our police department scares people and tells them, listen, you come back, you're
going to get arrested. No questions asked. You know, you've been officially banned for
three years. I forgot what they call it, but it's criminal trespassing. I'm not sure.
But they warned them saying you can't come back here for another three years. I don't
know if that's true the last couple of times, because this isn't the only time this has
happened. The police said, hey, you know what, I'm going to tell them you can't come back
for three years or whatever the case. But if he comes back, just call us and we'll arrest
him. You don't even have to charge him. We'll just arrest him and give him a night in jail,
whatever the case. But the other thing also is maybe check his pockets, see what the heck
the guy has. He could have a gun in his waist. He could have guns in his pocket. We made
a few mistakes, make no exceptions, but learn from those mistakes. And I'm glad we're talking
about nonviolence because our goal is to, yes, nonviolently remove somebody from church,
you know, but if the guy starts swinging or whatever, then we're prepared now more than
ever. I mean, we even had a meeting where it was all the men and we let the kids kind
of watch and they were able to beat me up and I was the aggressor and I interrupted
the services.
So now our guys, man, they're like quick to respond and drag people out. So we're going
to try to do it once a year where we just have a mass meeting after the morning service
and we already had one, I think less than six months ago. And I played the bad guy and
sure enough, I had to disrupt the church service and guys popped up and told me, "Hey, leave,
get out of here," because they're one and done. Somebody gets up, starts yelling at
the pastor. Somebody gets up, doesn't listen to the pastor. They're done. We don't care
if they're a church member. It's like, "You're done for today. Go home. Go home. Get out
of here." You disrupt and just escort them out, because you don't know if this guy is
going to actually comply. Whether he's a church member or not, if somebody disrupts the service,
they need to go, at least for the morning service, and just say, "They're done. Walk
them out." I don't think we should call the police on a church member or whatever unless
they get really stupid, but some strange guy. Just have the police roll over and stop them,
figure out what the problem is. Yeah, we made a few mistakes with that video, but there
was no way that that guy was a church member. We don't even know who the guy was. This can
happen at your church, so use that video and kind of, you know, like this guy who makes videos,
you know, what to do, what ifs, or whatever. This is kind of like our faithful word "Baptist,
what if" to the Baptist Churches of America and the world, you know, because you just never know
when it's going to happen, but just realize that you might want to just call the police, keep your
eye on them the entire time, and hopefully it doesn't happen, but just be ready for it. But
that's all that went through my mind, get this guy out of here, you know, as peaceful as possible,
and not just drag him out by his ankles and, you know, have people film it and pretend like
we're this violent group here in Tempe, Arizona. I think that's great. This is like cover your
church's ass and, uh, with brother Chris Agura and, uh, I really, I really appreciate your point
about keeping an eye on him afterwards because not only could he go to his vehicle, get a weapon,
come back, he could also just start damaging vehicles just because he's mad that he got
thrown out of the service or he could be slashing tires or cutting brakes or, or doing all kinds of
weird stuff and he's already shown himself to be a disrupter. So, you know, you kind of don't really,
the sky's the limit as far as the potential of what this person may do next. And so,
that's a great tip on not even when it seems like the situation has de-escalated or it's gone back
to normal, that you still need to be cautious and you still need to think about what other
scenarios and situations may occur. I even like the training aspect about kind of preparing men
getting people kind of ready for those scenarios. And, you know, praise the Lord that this was a
pretty mild situation. I mean, it's probably about the best case scenario for someone actually
disrupting the service just to kind of get everybody prepared mentally and to go through it
to then learn from it, to say, hey, you know what, we didn't necessarily handle this exactly how
we wanted to, but it gives us a great opportunity to fine tune some things, figure out some weaknesses
and do better if it even got worse. And I mean, Faithful Word's got to be one of the dumbest
places to go and try to attack or try to disrupt the service. So many people are carrying weapons
there, very highly trained, very good security. That would be a suicide mission to say the least.
And on top of that, you got the Lord's army and you got God in there. He's going to confound
people and confuse people. But be known that the horse is prepared against the day of battle,
but safety is of the Lord for that one. Yeah. What do you think about that video and commentary?
Well, he was crazy. We know that this was a guy who had severe mental issues thinking he was
Michael the Archangel, wanted a prayer read, supposedly. I thought it was a quick response
just watching from the video, but I can see what you're saying now, Brother Segura, as you analyze
it, you know, that individual and also Pastor Shelley. It's good that he wasn't more dangerous
than that, right? It's good that he was just a mental illness patient who escaped from the ward
and apparently just wanted to have a prayer read. So, you know, the devil was attacking Faithful Word
Baptist Church severely that day, Brother Segura, because you not only had the bombshell drop that
a trusted church member was actually a oneness heretic, which seemingly came out of nowhere,
but then you also have this guy in an unrelated situation. I mean, you want to talk about the
absolute, not only is it the worst church to interrupt, but the worst possible service to
interrupt in the worst possible you could ever interrupt. And then, you know, say, you know,
Brother Segura, you run up to him and the rest is history. The video actually recently went viral
again on TikTok, a bunch of morons on TikTok were upset at Pastor Anderson for how he handled that
one because I guess in their minds, they should have stepped aside, let that mentally mental
illness patient step behind the pulpit and read a bunch of gibberish. Yeah, just just make him the
pastor. Yeah, just go ahead and lay hands on him. Yeah, I mean, why not? I mean, just a free for all,
right? Yep. You know, I think, honestly, given the fact that there's not really any real life
experience prior to that, I felt like the situation played out pretty well. I do think that, um,
obvious, obviously, there's things to learn from and to get better and to tighten the ship. But I
was appreciative. I was in the service. So I saw it real life. I was sitting right there. I was
really close to the front row and it was bizarre. But for my, um, no, because I didn't, I didn't
even know exactly what the right protocol was. I wasn't necessarily one of the security and,
and I kind of find it's best to let the people that are actually supposed to do their job,
do their job first before you kind of step in because I don't want to like get in their way
either. And so, and I've even tried to tell my people like, you know, if there's an issue,
let our usher team or security team handle it first. We don't want other people to try and
necessarily jump in. But you know, if there's a problem and you're right there, you know, yeah,
maybe you kind of jump in. I was sitting with my boys and my wife was in the mother, baby room area.
And so I didn't, they were just kind of with me. So, but obviously if it got weird or something,
a lot of men stood up to kind of get to kind of like jump in. But um, Segura was, I felt like he
was just like speed walk. He was like running while walking and it was just like, he was putting
those gloves on so fast and he just got in there and it seemed like it was over pretty quick. It
happened real quick and it was over pretty quick and praise God, but it was high tension and uh,
it was, it was, you know, it's, it's great to go through those things. Someone asked in the video
or asked in the YouTube comments, what was the name of the gun range? It's Athena Gun Club in
Houston. So if you go to Athena Gun Club, you can do some of those real life active shooting drills.
And I like drills, you know, there's a prepared place for a prepared person. And I believe that
the Lord wants us to be prepared in every single way. And if you're going to have a weapon,
if you're going to actually have the desire to defend yourself, it makes sense to practice,
to think about it, to identify a strategy and a plan and try to think about all the scenarios
while you're calm, collected. Because once the situation happens, a lot of adrenaline,
a lot of excitement is going to come in. It's going to be harder to think about those things.
That's where you kind of need that muscle memory and that planning and practice to come
alongside of those intense situations. So that way you can handle them appropriately,
you already know what to do. Hey, brother sagura, what about a situation where you
had to de-escalate somebody who was really angry with you? It wasn't necessarily that
your life was in danger or anything. Perhaps it could have escalated to that point where
it got physical. But have you ever been confronted with somebody who was foaming at the mouth and
yelling and screaming at you, maybe even threatening you, and you had to just kind of... you didn't
meet force with force but rather you were able to de-escalate the situation. You were able to walk
away and everything turned out all right. Is there something like that that you might be able to
share with us? I mean, absolutely. I think one that the most recent one was there was somebody
who just showed up at church and I didn't know who this person was and he just comes up to me
and he's like, "Hey, is your brother gay?" And I didn't know what he meant by that. I'm like,
"What? What are you talking about?" And so what ends up happening is this guy's like, "Oh,
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding." And I'm like, "Okay." It's like, "Oh, I listen to Pastor
Anderson and this and that and whatever the case." I'm like, "All right." And I'm on top of the hood
of our church van just cleaning it, getting it ready for the soul winners for that Sunday's
afternoon soul winning. And so this guy just starts asking me a bunch of questions like, "Is Pastor
Anderson going to be here?" I'm here to see Pastor Anderson. I want to ask him some questions,
et cetera, et cetera. And I'm like, "Well, he shows up at 10.25 because he was giving me bad vibes."
And I'm just like, "Okay." And he had this, it looked like some kind of sea bag, big gigantic bag.
Looked like he was just passing through. And then he wants to go into the building. But of course,
this is 9 a.m. and we got some teenagers in the building practicing music, getting ready for the
service. So I'm like, "No, you can't go in there." And he said, "Well, why is that?" And I told him,
"Listen, we got some people in there practicing. They're teenagers. We don't know who you are.
I don't want them to feel weird." You know, "Well, is this God's house or is this your house?" I'm
like, "Well, this is God's house. But listen, I'm in charge of it right now." He's like, "Oh,
really? Who are you? I can tell you who I am. You know, I'm the guy in charge. Bottom line,
you cannot go in there. Oh, really?" You know, so he throws his bags down and he says, "Well,
let me tell you something. This is God's house. You know, I'm a child of God. I can just go in
anytime I want." You know what I'm like? "No, you can't. This is Pastor Anderson's, you know,
place that he's in charge of. And when he's not here, I'm in charge. And bottom line is,
we pay the bills and we can do whatever we want with this building. And of course,
you're not going in there." And he's like, "Oh, really?" He's like, "Yeah." He's like,
then he starts saying all kinds of crazy stuff to me. And he's like, "You just think you're tough
because blah, blah, blah, blah, and you finally got a job with a little bit of respect and now
you're tripping and this and that and whatever." And so I'm like, "All right, no problem." So I
get off the van and the guy is trying to provoke me to fight him. So he's just calling me names.
He's saying all kinds of crazy stuff to me. And he's obviously just doing his thing. And I'm like,
"Listen, listen, this is how it's going to end. You're either going to leave or you're going to
be forced to leave. Is he going to force me? No, I'm not going to force you. But you see my phone?
I'm about to call the PD and they're going to force you. And you will leave. And this is
private property. And if I want you, you can be here. And if I don't, you don't, you can't be here.
You know, oh yeah, we'll go ahead and call the police and whatever." And so of course the guy
sits there yelling at me, provoking me, calling me, whatever. And he's like, "I've been to prison."
You know, I'm like, "Okay, whatnot." And I had to get brother Raymond involved. Like, "Raymond,
they come out here. There's this guy getting aggressive. I just want you to keep an eye on
him. So obviously if something happens, you know, he can help me handle it." You know,
but the guy was just yelling at me and just trying to get me to fight him. And yeah, of course,
it took a while for the PD to get there because it wasn't an emergency. I called the non-emergency
number, told him there's some homeless guy and he got upset. "I'm not homeless!" I'm like, "Dude,
where are you coming from?" But at the end of the day, here's what happened. The police showed up
and exactly what I said was going to happen, happened. They told them, "Listen, it's their
building. They can do what they want. They don't want you there. You don't have to be there."
And of course the guy, you know, he had been to jail, I don't know what for, I can only imagine.
You know, but then the guy ends up just saying, "Hey, you know, I'm going to be here until Pastor
Anderson shows up." And we're like, "Fine, you can be here, but you have to be off our property
." So lucky enough, the guy did calm down, but he was trying to provoke me, saying things to me,
but there's no real reason to get physical in that situation. But before that, there was another
guy who was just sleeping outside our building, some young guy, and same thing happened to him.
We kicked him out. We told him not to come back, and he shows up again. And sure enough,
I see him in the building and I walk up to him. I'm like, "Hey, you already know the rules. You're
not supposed to be here. You've been kicked out." And he said, "Well, I'm not leaving." I'm like,
"Okay." And at that time, we had a couple of guys in the building. They would come up to me. They're
like, "Hey, you want to just drag him out?" I'm like, "No." It's like, it's 10 a.m. We got 30
minutes before the service starts. There's no reason to get physical. Now we got children around.
Hey, just let it be. We'll call the police. Let them come take him out and drag him out.
So that's what we just ended up doing. We'll let the police do their job because, quite frankly,
the police, they have medical insurance. They got the tasers. They got the pepper sprays. They got
the dogs. Hey, they get paid. Let them come and drag this guy out. Why do we have to do it? And
the guy ends up fighting back. And next thing you know, we're wrestling him or he bites us because
that's the thing about people that can't bite or they can't fight. If they can't fight, they just
start to bite. And the last thing I want is for my guys to get bit or me to get bit handling some
idiot. When we got 30 minutes before the service, yeah, he was talking to smack and annoying us,
but what are we about? You know, we're about being peacemakers and as best we could, we try to,
you know, get this guy to leave peacefully, but he made it very clear that he's not going to leave.
And I'm pretty sure he wanted us to drag him out so he can sue us. That's kind of what I felt in
the back of my mind. So I'm thinking, you know what, just do what the police told us to do. Even
when I was a security guard, after I went through the academy, the police will show up and tell us,
"Listen, just observe and report. You don't have to get physical with anybody. Even if they're
stealing stuff, even if they're trying to fight someone else, just call us. Tell us what they
look like. We'll show up." And that's where I got it from. They said, "Listen, we got the medical
insurance. We got the batons. We got the pepper spray. We got the tasers. And we even got the
guns." It's like, you don't need to get involved. You don't need to get physical. So let them talk
their trash and just call the PD. Praise the Lord. I know you guys have a different story,
but praise the Lord, the PD out here is pretty decent. So they came in to remove both individuals
without incident and it just told them, "Listen, this is your verbal. This is good for three years.
You come back, we're going to arrest you for criminal trespassing. This is their building.
They can do whatever they want, make whatever rules they want, but this is God's house. This
is God's house." And he's like, "What are you even here for? Well, I'm here to talk to the pastor.
I'm on my way to Alabama or something to go talk to Ken Hoeven." So this is some Ken Hoeven crazy
fan that just wanted to stop by and cause trouble. Waste pastor's time. A PTW, at least I called
those people PTWs, professional time wasters. That's all this guy wanted to do was waste pastor
Anderson's time. So yeah, he just got violent, or he got very aggressive all of a sudden. I'm
thinking, "Really?" So I have to get Raymond just to be out there with me. And that's what you want
to do if you don't have a camera. I told Raymond, "Pull out the camera." Every time we have an
incident, it's like, "Hey, pull up the camera." And as part of our security detail, we already
got a guy who's the designated camera guy. If somebody wants to fight, get physical or whatever,
we think we may have to get physical. It's like, "Look, you're the one that's going to bust out the
camera. You guys are going to be the ones that's going to help me drag this guy out. I can't get
involved because I have to be on the phone with the PD. So I've got to describe and talk and walk
and do whatever." And so that's kind of how we handle it, a faithful word. But obviously, if no
one's putting their hands on us, we're not going to put our hands on them. But you know what? If
we have to, we will. We will have to physically remove someone. But we got what we need to get
the job done. We're not going to handcuff people, but we did invest some money in some plastic zip
ties that we can just zip tie people if worst-case scenario comes. But our intention is not to touch
people. Somebody's being a pain in the butt. Somebody wants to get physical. We're not even
thinking of that. We're thinking about, "Hey, let's just try to get this thing outside. Call the PD
right away. Let's just try to get this thing ended so we can continue with the church service." But
that's our mentality. It's like, "Hey, the last thing I want to do is get physical. Have one of
my church members get physical." There's no point. For what? Okay, so they disrupt the service. At
that point when we have to remove that guy, we have to do it on the spot because he's interrupting
the church service. Of course, we're all heated, emotional. It is what it is. Hopefully that never
happens. But if it's before the service, that's when I kind of feel like I'm ahead of the game
just because we can just call the PD and they must have like 10 incident numbers with my name on it
just from dealing with little things here and there. But yeah, absolutely. As far as getting
physical with people that got up in my face, it has happened at church and at work. Being a cable
guy, a guy got in my face because it took his parking spot and he was up in my face ready to
fight me and all I can do is just try to apologize and make peace with the guy and he just kind of
pulled me off or whatever. But the funny thing is he saw me later on in the day and he comes up to
me and literally taps me on the shoulder. I turn around. I'm like, "Hey, what's going on?" He's
like, "I just want to apologize for acting that way earlier, man. I didn't mean it. I'm just having
a bad day." And I felt that too. When we broke off the first time, he confronted me and got in my
face and started to cuss me out. I just felt like, "Lord, forgive this guy. He's just having a bad
day. This is a normal behavior." So later on in the day, he did say that I'm just having a bad day.
I'm like, "No problem. Gives me a fist pump and just we move our separate ways." And it was cool
after that. So I don't know. It has to be something super crazy life-threatening in order to get,
at least for me, to want to get physical because there's no point. I don't want to lose a tooth.
I don't want to hurt anyone. I'm just trying to be a peaceful guy until I die. But obviously,
being a faithful word, I'm the first person that probably has to make contact with any crazy that
walks in. And we have plenty of those throughout the years, but they usually leave or whatever when
we threaten them with the police. So far we have that. But like you said, faithful word is the
dumbest place to come in and cause trouble or even try to shoot up the place because we got just so
many people with guns. I mean, I don't know how many bullets we have every single Sunday, but I
wouldn't be surprised if it's over 200. You know, because if we got 10 guys with at least 16 bullets
each, you know, that's 160 bullets. It'd be closer to a thousand in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised
if it's a thousand and we got ladies with guns. I mean, obviously I carry two guns on me. One's on
non-lethal. The other one's lethal. You know, so if I do have to kind of like use one, I'm going
to use the one with the pepper spray and hope that stops them. If not, then whatever. We'll move to
the next. We'll escalate it if it needs to be. But we're a pretty peaceful church. I mean, these
things happen, but we kind of laugh them off. But we're more than ready. But obviously violence is
not the first thing that comes to my mind. Even when people were like, "Hey, let's drag this guy
out." I'm like, "No, hold up, man. We got 30 minutes before the service starts, bro. Just relax. Let
him sit there. Let him sit his happy butt in there and think he won because we're going to win this
war. We may lose the battle right now because he ain't listening to us. He's punking us. He's
making it look stupid in front of people, especially with the kids. But let's just show the kids how to
handle the situation and just watch and observe them. Hey, I'm on the phone. Don't worry about it.
Trust me, he'll leave. And as soon as the police showed up, he already had been worn once. As soon
as they walk in, they're like you again. He's like, come here. He literally just got up immediately
and walked out. But this guy even got in my face in the past and he's like, oh, you want to fight
me? You want to fight me? I'm like, no, I just put on my gloves in case he tries to do something.
Because if I'm going to get into a fight, I might as well put some gloves on. You don't want to get
your gloves on in his face. It's like, oh, you want to fight? You want to fight? He got close to me.
I'm like, bro, even if you hit me a full swing, you're a skinny little dude. You know, I think
I'll be fine. But yeah, absolutely. You just got to be ready. I wouldn't want to get in a fistfight
with Brother Sakura. Well, and of course, calling the cops is a great option. I know that brother
Oz, all he had to do is basically cough his first name and the cops already knew to come to
steadfast just because we've had so many stupid protesters and satanists and everything. And for
some reason, the cops love the satanists. They love to give hugs to them and they lie to us all
the time, but that's a different story. You got to appreciate those camera guys. I like how he
says he pulls out the camera, especially when you got people like Tyler Baker getting thrown out of
church. You got to appreciate that camera guy sneaking in there and getting that video so we
can all watch. I appreciate that camera guy. Well, you want to document everything. Well,
I want to say this about Brothers Agora. There's not just the human element when it comes to
self-defense. That's one thing you got to learn from Brothers Agora. I remember getting in the
church van with him. This was a couple of years ago, but we're about to go soul hunting. He puts
a taser about two inches from my face and just totally cacks the thing. It freaked me out,
but I guess he was like, "Hey, look at this cool thing I got to ward off dogs." I was like,
"You almost tased me, bro." Animals can even be a real threat, especially since we're
soul-winning Baptists here. Those tasers, they do work. Have you ever had to use the taser,
though, outside of just clicking it to scare away an animal, Brother Seguro?
No, sir. The Lord has blessed us with great technology in 2021,
'22, and moving forward, man. Seriously. They need to make a taser that works like
that for human dogs. So, what do you think about those stories, Brother Ben?
Well, I think it proves that we're not these, like, violent, you know, looking for a fight,
brutes, or something like that. Because that's how we're painted when we talk about the right
to self-defense, when we talk about owning a firearm. Obviously, the first instinct is
to de-escalate. The Bible says, "A soft answer turneth away wrath." And there are certain
individuals, and Brother Sigurah brought up a particular scenario in which someone was
trying to fight him and being belligerent, but he gave him a soft answer, apologized for whatever
it is that angered the guy, and then later on he comes up to him and says, "Hey, you know what? I
was just having a bad day. I'm sorry." And you know what the Bible does teach? To love your enemies,
and somebody who would do that to me. You know, I actually had a situation one time where I was
driving and out of nowhere somebody drove right up to me, pulled his window down, and claimed that I
had been tailgating him and was just super pissed off at how I was driving. And I honestly don't
even remember doing that. I thought it was a false accusation. I don't even remember it. But I was
just like, "Well look, I'm sorry. Didn't mean to do that." And just immediately his countenance
changed and he was like, "Okay, well have a great day." I mean it was like a 10-second just switch
for really being really pissed off at me to just all of a sudden everything was fine. And with
normal people, you know, just you give them a soft answer, you just try and move on from the
situation. At the end of the day, that's not what we're here to fight, right? We're involved
in spiritual warfare. We fight over the gospel. We fight over good doctrine. We fight over things
that actually matter, not dumb carnal disputes. So when it comes to conflict, our first instinct
should be the soft answer. Our first instinct should be to de-escalate. Now there are situations
where it doesn't work. And no matter how hard you try to calm the person down, they're belligerent.
They want to fight you. They want to take your life even. And then that's when you move to
physicality. That's when you move to using lethal force if necessary to protect yourself and to
protect your loved ones. But obviously, our first instinct is to try and calm things down.
And that's why I wanted to ask that question earlier, because I feel like people kind of,
they miscast us as looking for a fight or something like that,
just because we believe in the second amendment, which is the furthest thing from the truth.
Now I want to kind of get to kind of our final points here. Is there is there kind of one like
last thing that you really are wanting to get to or talk about brother Ben or should we try to take
maybe some more questions? If you have a question, you can always drop that down.
We hopefully we'll get our Collins back for the next few episodes. But you can still drop in a
question. We are doing the show live and that's why I get to enjoy these live cookies because
they're just, they're, they are delicious. Have you had one? I have had more than one. Okay, good.
So far. All right. They are really good. We'll have this, you know, have brother Zagara over
so that he can have some. Now, brother Zagara, you're preaching in Houston this Thursday,
is that correct? Yes, sir. So if you haven't heard brother Zagara preach, you know, it's like a real
life two time speed YouTube video where brother Zagara comes and he preaches to you faster than
you can even believe it. And that's one of the things I love about brother Zagara is he gives you
so much information so quickly, but it's all really good information. It's information. And
brother Zagara, he's a good preacher. He's got a lot of zeal, very hard worker, very dependable.
You got to love brother Zagara and man, he's definitely not someone that would ever
call to arms, but he's not someone you want to mess with at all. Probably one of the last people
that you want for him to feel like you're a threat and there's no other alternative to use deadly
force. Do you have something? We had something in the chat that I wanted to mention courtesy
of Pastor Aaron Thompson. He said, "We had a guy come in and ask if he could work with the children.
He was wasted on drugs and alcohol. He took a swing at one of our ushers and that was a big mistake.
He got tossed out." That's a pretty quick way to get thrown on your ass on the sidewalk
if you try and take a swing at one of the ushers of a New Testament Baptist Church,
especially our brand of Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. So interesting story there from
Pastor Thompson. I wanted to make a quick comment and then you guys can respond to either the Pastor
Thompson story or what I'm about to say. But, you know, when it comes to firearms, right,
I've heard the argument and they'll use Proverbs 21-31 to do this. "Well, I thought safety was of
the Lord. Why do you need your gun?" Guns are the false idol of Christianity. You're relying on guns
instead of God. Well, here's why this is so idiotic. It's so dumb. Because firearms would
be the tool or the means by which God can help us achieve safety. You see, when the Bible says
safety is of the Lord, that means when I pull out my Glock 23 and I point it at the home invader
and pull the trigger, the Lord is helping me to do that. He's helping me to pull the trigger.
He's enabling me to shoot accurately and use this tool, this weapon, to protect myself and my family.
So it's completely just stupid to claim that guns are some sort of idol or whatever. So are
vehicles an idol too? Because we use them as a method to go from place to place. What about any
other tool that you would use for any other activity, right? So it's like they'll come up
with any argument to try and discredit the use of firearms by specifically Christians.
And I don't think that's what the Bible teaches whatsoever. Again, it's a tool that the Lord can
help us use effectively to protect ourselves. Well, if we're going to use that logic, what
would be the difference from saying, you know, instead of me going out and getting in my car
and driving to work and working and earning a paycheck, you know, I'm just going to trust
the Lord to put money in my bank account or, you know, any, any item of our life, did David,
when he was going to fight Goliath, just stand there and just say like, I know God's going
to kill you. Or did he put a rock in a slingshot, sling it around and toss it at the giant's
forehead and crush it and then go and slice his head off with the dude's sword. So obviously
the Lord was fighting with David. He's, he's guiding David, you know, and there's a lot
of symbolism even there because he's trusting in the rock, which is a picture of Jesus Christ
and Jesus Christ is what's laid the giant. And obviously David was extremely outmatched
and he trusted in the Lord to deliver him. But at the same time, he's trusting the Lord
to give him the strength, to give him the mental capacity to fight correctly and to
win over this giant. You know, even in the battle of AI, it's interesting how they fight
this battle. They're trusting in the Lord to deliver them. But what they do is they
initially go up and they start fighting, but then they kind of retreat and like a fake
retreat to try and make it seem like they have lost the battle and they have men lying
in wait that come behind them and they burn the city, which basically ends up giving them
the victory. And it's like, it's not that they weren't trusting the Lord in that victory.
They still had to do something. I mean, even Jericho, they still have to blow the trumpet.
I mean, they still had to shout. So it's not like God wants us to do absolutely nothing.
We just lay down in the fetal position and say, God is my shepherd. I mean, obviously
God is going to guide us. The Bible says he teacheth my hands to war. And so we believe
that God is in coordination with our steps, with our actions, with our thoughts. The steps
of a good man are ordered by the Lord, but we still have to take that step. We still
have to take the action into our own hands. And what better than using a gun when you
have the opportunity in America, especially, or maybe the state of Texas or Arizona where
you have constitutional carry. Why not have a gun and say, Lord, help me with this if
I ever need to use it in those kinds of situations, in those kinds of scenarios. And it is a last
resort. I wish that we had brother Dylan Oz on the show this evening because he had
a recent encounter where someone was chasing him down. It was a crazy car chase. The guy
was a complete psycho, probably demon possessed. And brother Oz was in a situation where he's
getting to a point where if he got cornered, you know, he might have to actually use deadly
force. Praise the Lord, he didn't have to though. And he even had to endure several
minutes of extreme danger and not being safe, but he wasn't trigger happy. He wasn't going
to necessarily use that unless it was absolutely necessary. And so we find that balance of
is it necessary? And I think sometimes people twist the Bible, they'll twist Matthew chapter
number five where it talks about resist not evil. But if someone smites the on a cheek,
turn them the other cheek also, right? And that's kind of the essence of this pacifist
type argument. But the Bible's not saying, you know, if he shoots you in the heart, let
him shoot you in the head too. You know, we're talking about getting smitten on the
cheek is kind of like just a picture of disrespect. It's kind of, you know, this just provoking,
this kind of just intimidating. And of course, the Bible teaches that we should have some
level of tolerance to the fact that we would allow someone to hurt us a little bit or damage
us a little bit. As long as it's not life threatening, as long as it's not, you know,
necessary for us to respond, we should just walk away. You know, you don't have to punch
back, you don't have to push back, you don't have to slap back, you don't have to talk
back even. You can just let people say mean things to you, say evil things to you and
just ignore them, move on. In fact, for our church and a lot of churches like ours where
they've had violent seeming protesters or, you know, at least their words are pretty
violent in what they're saying. They're threatening us.
You know, the threats are coming out, the lies are coming out. It's best to just completely
ignore them, just deescalate, not engage because they want you to push them back. They want
you to engage so then they have the legal right to actually fight you, to actually hurt
you or to harm you. And so it's better to just walk away from these scenarios, be the
bigger man as it were, and just try to get out of there.
But if you get to a point like Kyle Rittenhouse where you're trapped between two cars and
a pedophile, you know what you do? You shoot the pedophile and praise the Lord for people
like Kyle Rittenhouse and praise the Lord that, you know what, a jury found him innocent.
Did you watch any of that trial, Brother Segura?
I did, I did, and I was glad that he ...
What did you think about it?
I mean, I thought the prosecutor was a total idiot. You know, you could tell that it was
not about ... it was not about justice whatsoever. Just this wicked prosecutor puffed up in his
own mind, thought he could make himself look good by being on national television and completely
backfired. The guy didn't know how to hold a gun. I don't think he knew how to even ... I
don't think he knew any safety rules whatsoever. But yeah, it went great for the kid. I heard
that he's out here at Arizona State. Maybe he'll visit us one day and we'll be like,
"Yo, can you go read this? I already got permission from the pastor."
That's funny. Yeah, the prosecutor literally pointed the AR that Kyle had used at the jury,
I believe. Is that not what he did? Yeah. He broke every safety rule. He broke
every safety rule under the sun. He had his finger in the trigger. He aimed at things he's
not supposed to aim. I don't even know if the weapon was unsafe, but I highly doubt it knowing
him. But it was funny how he's trying to act like he's this gun expert and aims it at the jury,
trying to scare them to show them how terrified this pedophile must have been. When you look at
the video, he must have not been that terrified. He was trying to chase them down, and he would
have just took his gun and shoot him. Screaming raging lunatic. I don't think he cared about a gun
being pointed at him whatsoever. Yeah, but I mean, as Christians, we feel safe. I mean,
when you're right with the Lord, you feel safe with or without a gun. We feel safe no matter what.
You know, but it's wise to have a gun, especially when you live in a crazy country like ours,
where you got all these psychopaths. What, do we leave the world in psychopaths? You know,
we got this crazy military or this crazy prison system that's basically producing psychopaths
by locking them up like animals. And they're literally like, you know, they're cutting
themselves in their, in their, you know, prison cells and they let them out and they're psychotic,
you know, and it's like, oh, but don't worry about it. You know, it's like, make all these laws,
you'll be safe from these people. We'll make all these crazy gun laws, you know, that'll keep you
safe. Uh, no, it's just like they're creating crazies and they don't want us to have the means
to defend ourselves. And I don't believe that God would allow us to get into a shoot. I mean, what's,
what's the point of it? But be ready, of course, because it is what it is. We're supposed to have
the horse prepared for battle. What does that mean? You know, be ready for anything. But yeah,
I believe like brother Ben said, I mean, J Frank Norris, uh, had a guy come into his office. Uh,
it seemed, I don't know the exact story. I think it'd be, you know, best to look it up, but
essentially someone came in his office, threatening him, reached for a gun or at least it appeared to
be reaching for a gun, I believe. And, uh, J Frank Norris shot him and killed him. And I believe that
it was like a really big trial. Like there's a big hearing across the nation. A lot of people were
involved and he was totally acquitted of all charges because, you know, you don't walk into
someone's office, threaten them, pretend like you're getting a gun, even if you don't have one,
because at that point, you know, someone's going to defend themselves and you have the right to
stand your ground, I believe, in the state of Texas. You also have castle doctrine. You know,
someone's on your property and you don't want them there. I mean, you can use, I believe,
almost all force to basically defend yourself in those scenarios. That's why it's important that
people know the law. They know how to respond correctly, but also from a biblical perspective,
realize that God does not expect his people to just lay down and let criminals kill them.
Obviously there's verses in the Bible that talk about we are sheep for the slaughter
and that we were killed all the day long. But I believe that it's only right to essentially lay
down your life when it's for a clear aspect of the Bible. If someone wants to take your life
because you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, or if someone wants to do you harm because you believe
parts of the Bible, then so be it. If the government wants to arrest you and haul you off
to prison or put you to death for believing the word of God, I don't believe that you actually
should resist in those scenarios that you should just let it be. Obviously, you should resist in
the sense that you should say, I don't believe this is right and you shouldn't do this and God's
going to judge you. But at the same time, I don't believe that if America outlawed Christianity
tomorrow, Christians need to call to arms and fight the government. You just have to basically
let the Lord do his thing. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego didn't pull out a sword to start
fighting Markanezer. They let him get thrown in the fiery furnace. But that was because they
wouldn't bow down to an idol. That was a clear spiritual issue. This wasn't someone breaking
into Shadrach's house at night trying to steal a stereo. At that point, Shadrach's going to pull
out his sword and defend his home. The good man's not going to let his house be broken up. So I
think there's that clear distinction of, you know, is this someone that's just a criminal trying to
commit a crime and violate me? Or is this someone persecuting me for righteousness sake for the
Bible sake? And I would say in the situation where you're being persecuted for righteousness sake,
you would suffer evil. You wouldn't resist it. You would allow them to basically hurt or harm you.
But when it gets to a point, let's say I'm going out soul winning. Let me give you a practical
scenario. If I'm going out soul winning and someone starts pushing me or maybe even hit me
or something, I believe it's best to just walk away. The best thing would be to just get out of
that scenario, leave the area, come back another day, don't engage with the person. But if someone
pulled out a weapon and was threatening me and my soul winning partner or my children or my wife,
I believe that you would have every right in that scenario to defend yourself and to use lethal
force in that situation. But that's because they're violating the law. This is a criminal
action. But here's the thing, if cops came to arrest you for soul winning or whatever,
I don't believe that would be the right time to call to arms. You know, you can tell them
that that's not right. You can preach them the word of God. But you know, basically at that point,
you get in the cop car and you go and you basically let the Lord's will be done from
the government sanctioned authorities because God says that we're supposed to obey, you know,
basically the higher powers. And if the government wants to do their thing, then you know,
to some degree you kind of have to obey it. A verse that comes to mind is when the apostle
Paul is in Acts chapter number 16, they went to jail for preaching and then they kind of get set
three by the bailiff, as it were, by a miracle. And then the jailer kind of lets them out. And
then they're like, hey, they said that y'all can get out of here. And he's like, no, no,
we're going back in and they got to pull us out. So he's kind of like, he kind of wants to go
through the proper channels rather than just fleeing or escaping or breaking the law or
anything like that. And so, you know, obviously there's going to be a little bit of discretion
here. But based on what I said, you feel like it's clear to people kind of this dividing line
of like resisting not evil in a spiritual sense, but in a carnal sense, yeah, we should
defend ourselves, protect ourselves. Yeah, I mean, I think what you're describing is persecution for
Christ's sake. You know, the Bible says, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall
suffer persecution." If that ends up being physical, then so be it. If the government
wants to come and arrest us right now for what we're saying about the Word of God,
then so be it. That's not a time to take up arms. That's not a time to try and fight a physical
battle. We fight a spiritual one, and even if that means that we end up getting martyred
for the cause of Christ, that's a completely different situation than if somebody were to
break into your home in the middle of the night to hurt you or your family. To bring the chat room
into it and we can get Brother Segura's thoughts, the question was brought up. Do you ever choose,
because you had also mentioned soul winning, the dangers that you might face soul winning.
This question comes from the chat room. Do you ever choose to not soul win in a particular
community because of high violent crime rates? Let's have Brother Chris Segura tackle that one.
Absolutely, absolutely not. I will go in to the most dangerous cities. I don't, like I said,
I feel safe, you know, with or without a gun. And we are planning to have a soul winning marathon,
you know, where we go to the top 10 most dangerous cities. We were going to do it before
the pandemic, but the pandemic kicked in. You know, so Pastor Anderson, he still wants to do it.
Where we go soul winning in the top 10 most dangerous cities in America, similar to the
mega soul winning marathon, where we just hit those 10 cities in one day, you know,
because he believes we're going to get a ton of people saved. You know, so of course, you know,
if somebody says, hey, this is a highly gang area, you know, and they, and they have like a lot of
murders in that area, you know, I don't think it's bad to go there during the day. But if it looks
sketchy, leave, but definitely don't go there at night. But we don't worry about those things.
You know, if we're being persecuted by the gang members and they're threatening to shoot us and
they're showing guns or whatever, then be wise and just leave. You know, it's pretty dumb to just
stay there. But we're not afraid to go to the top 10 most dangerous cities in America. We plan to
do it. Yeah, I would, I would say this, I think from a philosophical perspective, you don't want
to avoid any area going soul winning. However, you know, I do try to teach my soul winners that if
they are in an area that's dangerous to at least exercise some levels of precautions. So for example,
obviously we want to go soul winning during the day. We're not going to go soul winning 2 AM in
the morning or something in the hood. Obviously you want to go during the day, which is going to
prevent, you know, a lot of issues. Additionally, I would never send any of my ladies soul winning
teams into these more dangerous areas by themselves. Having male escorts or, you know, sending,
you don't want to just send women and children into these dangerous areas to be victimized.
Potentially you want to send men in there with them and always in eye range. You never want to
let them get out of their eyesight. I say that also I try to teach women that, you know, if they
knock on a door and the person's awkward or saying something perverted or they're, or they're doing
something that's weird, there's no problem in just leaving. You know, you can always just leave
because obviously if we knock every single door in our entire area, some of those doors are some
pretty bad doors with some pretty bad people. And I've told my soul owners, look, when someone,
you knock on the door and they're like, you need to get out of here, I just get out of there.
Because a lot of times these people will just tell you like you need to leave or get out of here
and you need to just listen to that, not be this guy that shoves his foot in the door and is like,
no, I'm coming in. Also, I've told ladies like, don't just go in people's houses. Just say, hey,
we're fine out here. Can we just give you the gospel right here? Because they may want you to
come inside for a different reason. And if they're not willing to just kind of stand there and let
you preach the gospel, it's probably better to just move on. There's no sense in just putting
yourself into a dangerous situation. Also, someone's being aggressive or they're basically trying to
fight you or they're not receptive. You just need to leave in every scenario, whether this is a
dangerous neighborhood or not. And so of course, we want to be harmless as doves, but we want to
be wise as serpents in the sense that we want to keep our head on a swivel. We want to pay attention
to our surroundings. We want to identify people that might be problem makers, troublemakers,
people that are following you around, people that are noticing you a little bit too much,
someone saying something that's a little awkward or perverted. So it's good to use discretion
in these areas. But you know what? When I go soul hunting in some of these quote-unquote more
dangerous areas, it's sometimes some of the better soul hunting anyways. And most of these
people in these areas are not dangerous. It's actually still a very small percentage of the
people in these areas that are dangerous. And if you really looked at a map of where all the
murderers and guns and basically problems are happening, your entire city is going to be
chickenpox. I mean, you're talking about fractions of percentages increases in these certain areas.
They want to make it sound much worse than it really is. There's really murder and rape
and stealing and all this happening everywhere, everywhere around you and every city of America.
I mean, the statistical differences are typically between five and two percent.
Like, you know, it's a very small, when you really think about it'll say like in this city,
they have 20 murders per capita and this one's like 10. But like when you think about in the
grand scheme, it's like 20 out of a thousand and it's 10 out of a thousand. We're not talking
about a huge difference. Yeah, it sounds double, but it's not like it's that much more dangerous
than any other area. Really, just America in general has some danger to it and you need to
just be careful in every area they go to. But I'm not going to say, you know, I don't want to go
to that area because they have 20 murders per capita versus the 10 per capita area.
That's just kind of, to me, that's basically just saying there's a line in the streets.
There's a line in the way and you're not willing to go out and pick the gospel.
If you don't mind me interrupting, you just have to be just wise. I don't know how I was to explain
it. It's just like you go to an area and it feels weird. It might be because there's something that's
causing you to feel that way. But of course, don't be stupid. I personally don't like to
go into people's homes that have dogs. I just don't like doing it. I don't care if it's a small
dog. As a cable guy, I've been bit by chihuahuas. I've been attacked by pit bulls. But I've seen
soul winners literally open the gate, walk in there. The most dumbest person I've ever
saw do that was Gary Kirschway. He's won his heretic. There was a big German shepherd and
I'm like, "I'm not going in there with you." He opens the tiny little gate, walks right through,
and that dog is barking inches away from him. He just gets to the door. I think because the owner
came out, that dog backed off when he saw the owner wasn't in danger, but I couldn't believe
Gary did such a dumb thing. That dog's inches away from biting him and he's just kind of shooing it
off, just trying to shoo it off. I don't believe in that type of dumb soul winning. I think it's
dangerous. If somebody is like, "Oh, I'm not going to this area, man." That's the murder capital of
the world or whatever. Well, I grew up in the murder capital of the world or the United States
and that was back in 1990 whatever, but I never noticed all the shootings and the drugs and
whatever because I wasn't looking for it. If you want to find danger, you'll find it anywhere if
you look for it. But what we believe is like, "Hey, we're going to go everywhere, but we're also
using our brains." If we go to an area and you see a bunch of guys outside and they're looking at
you all weird and they're all nervous and whatever they can... I mean, there's a lot of things you
can do. I can't go through every scenario, but like Pastor Shelley, like you said, be wise. You're
a woman, be wise. But as far as the question, would you guys avoid areas if they're known to be
dangerous areas? The answer is no, but we're going to be wise whether it's dangerous or not
because you just never know. That's why I don't like going somewhere by myself. I can easily do
it, but even in the nicest, coolest, fanciest neighborhoods, I don't like going by myself
because you never know what reprobates behind that door can accuse me of anything. I need my partners
to be there because then it's two witnesses versus one and whatever they want to accuse me of, if
they do call the cops saying that I threatened them or say something or harass them or whatever
the case may be, I've got one or two soul-winding partners with me, but I feel bad when we got guys
that just feel like, "Oh, this is three. Let me just split off and go on my own." You never know
what will happen. You just don't know, but we believe that, hey, if you're looking for trouble,
you're going to find it. But if you're out there with a pure heart, you're going out there to get
people saved, God will protect you. We're not overly worried about our safety when we know we're
going out there for the right reasons, but we're not going to let our brain stay in our vehicles
when we go so many. We're going to use them because you just never know. You just got to keep an eye
out. Dogs, people, whatever, drug addicts, you name it. We've dealt with people knocking doors
with drug addicts. We're like, "Whoa, this dude's seriously on drugs, like harassing us." He's like,
"I don't believe Jesus was black," or whatever. It's like, "No, we don't." They want to just get
physical. Obviously, we're not going to resort to violence to deal with those people. "Oh, you want
some? Oh, man, let's go. We'll go at it right now." No, we're constantly focusing on just, "Hey,
let's go out there and be safe." That's what we pray for safety every time before we step off.
We are constantly reminding people, "Be safe." We're constantly reminding people, "Stay with
your partners." It doesn't matter what area. You keep the basics, you're going to be fine.
We absolutely want to get people safe anywhere, shape, or form. We do have Baptist churches that
avoid certain areas because they're "dangerous," but like Pastor Sully says, you just never know
what's around you because there's danger everywhere. You just got to be safe and smart, and the Lord
will protect you, but focus on just, "Hey, I'm going to go out there and do the best job possible,"
and just prepare as best you can, pray or whatever. When bad things happen, I don't know, which is
rarely ever, you can kind of look and see, "Okay, I shouldn't have done that." You shouldn't have
walked in that house with a big old sign that says, "Beware of dogs," and it's nice and clean.
Looks like he just bought it, but hey, we got to go soul winning. You walk in there, and next thing
you know, three pit bulls are coming at you. And yes, this is a personal story. It did happen to
me. I got attacked by three dogs in one house. Lucky enough, my soul winning partner, he was able
to escape the bites. I got bit in my Bible, got bit in my pants. Lucky enough, they didn't get my
skin. I took up in the sprint. All three dogs chased me down, but guess what? My soul winning
partner was able to escape because I was running away. Yeah, the dogs are chasing me and he's able
to get out, but that was a quote unquote safe area, wasn't as dangerous as everybody. But it
became dangerous right away. Exactly. Danger can happen anywhere. I agree with you. And
somebody's a fact checker in the show this evening. When I was talking about murder per capita,
I think I had said a thousand, but I remember the statistic wrong. It's like a hundred thousand,
but, uh, I pulled it up and, uh, the top murder per capita of about a hundred thousand per
a hundred thousand residents in 2020 was Memphis, Tennessee at 24.2. And then New Orleans was 21.7.
Shreveport, LA was, or Shreveport, Louisiana was a 21.6, which Shreveport was one of the most
receptive soul wanting areas we've ever been in. And so we went there and it was great. We went,
and we went in the ghetto, but I did see in 2022, now St. Louis is at 64 point something,
I believe is what the rate was. Let me, let me see if I can get all the way down to the bottom of
this article. But it's now saying that St. Louis is the most dangerous per month. Yeah, 64.54 murders
per 100,000 residents in St. Louis. So that's like triple what it had been in 2020. That's crazy.
But again, typically when you're looking at these statistics, you know, they're kind of very similar
as far as the numbers. You know, we're not talking about like huge differences in numbers,
but I think this was a great question to kind of end on because not only should we defend ourselves
and be wise, we need to defend the gospel and we need to go out there and preach the gospel and go
soul winning. And that's what I love about Brother Segura is he's not just going to defend himself.
He defends the gospel. He's a great preacher of the gospel. I think that's going to probably do
it for us this evening in the show. Is there anything left, any last words you wanted to give
us, Brother Segura? No. I mean, if there's anybody out there that thinks that there's something wrong
with defending yourself, I actually pulled up the Jehovah's Witness website and I found, I guess
it must have been the same one that I read years ago where this guy's giving his testimony about
how he's in martial arts. And this is what he says. He says, "A turning point for me was the
incident I mentioned at the outset. When I accidentally kicked a spine partner in the nose,
that accident made me think seriously about whether I could be a peaceful follower of Christ if I
continue practicing martial arts. I had learned that Isaiah 20 or Isaiah 2, 3 and 4 foretold that
those who follow Jehovah's instructions will not learn war anymore." Translation, you shouldn't
defend yourself. And then it says, "And Jesus taught others not to resort to violence even when
they face injustice." Hey, we believe the same thing, but they're making it seem like you can't
defend yourself. And then it says this, "Therefore I left the sport that I love so much." Translation,
"I stopped practicing self-defense because it's sinful." So it's all about non-violence today,
and we have the right to defend ourselves. I mean, you see it all from the Old Testament to the New
Testament, you know, but you got to be wise. Of course, if it's self-defense, the Bible's okay
with that, but when you're obviously being violent, violating people, innocent people, the Bible's
against that, and we're against violence, but self-defense is not violence, biblically speaking.
Well, amen to that, and thanks so much for being on the show. Brother Segarra is a great person
to talk on this topic, and he's got a lot of knowledge, and he's not only dangerous as a
weapon, he's dangerous with that sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, the Bible.
Brother Ben, you got any last thoughts for us? Well, as we inch closer to the end times, I think
this topic becomes even more relevant. The Bible warns that the love of many is going to wax cold.
The Bible warns that we're going to be afflicted, and that, you know, people are just going to grow
more and more insane, you know, as we inch closer to the Antichrist taking control. And so I think
that we ought to be educated on this topic. We ought to know what the Bible says about this.
And we ought to realize that, yes, it is biblical to defend yourself. There's a distinction between
self-defense and violence. Well, I really appreciate you guys being on the show with us this evening.
Thanks, Brother Segura. Thanks, Brother Ben. We're looking forward to the next few episodes. We're
going to still keep going with the Baptist Bias. Hopefully we'll have about 10 episodes for season
number one. And if you have any questions, you can always put them down in the chat.
Hopefully we'll bring back our live call. And we really like that feature. We like people calling
in. So try to catch the show Tuesdays at 8 p.m. It's the Baptist Bias. We're on YouTube. We're on
Facebook. We're on Podbean. Is that right? Podbean. We're on Apple Podcast. What else are we on,
Brother Ben? Spotify and the Stitcher Radio app. We got it all. And you need to go out there and
share these episodes. Get people plugged into hearing the truth. It's hard to hear good
preaching, but it's also just hard to hear good anything. Just the truth on any subject,
on any topic. And the goal of our show is to approach a lot of topics that maybe you wouldn't
hear a whole sermon on or you haven't heard a sermon on recently. Kind of connecting with real
world experiences, life events, showing videos. And if you ever have an idea for a topic, you could
always email them in, put them in the show. We like to get some feedback from our audience,
put a comment, like this thing, share this thing, tweet it even. I don't think, does Twitter even,
does anybody care about Twitter anymore? I mean, I don't. I don't at all. It's complete garbage,
but that's going to do it for us this evening. Why don't you sign us off, Ben? For Brother Segura
and Pastor Shelley, this is Ben the Baptist signing off. Thank you so much for tuning in
everybody. God bless you all and we will talk to you guys again after a while.