Remember the words unto us, remember the words unto us, remember the words unto us, remember
the words to the enemy, yet do I seek you as I mine enemies, yet do I not decline from
the testimonies, I behold the transgressor.
Hey everybody, thanks for joining us for a special episode of The Baptist Bias.
We're going to be doing a reaction to a sermon that was preached about Steadfast Baptist
Church and our doctrinal statement, and I've got with me in studio none other than Ben
the Baptist.
How's it going everybody?
Oh, I'm excited to be here for this special edition of The Baptist Bias.
We're going to go over this sermon together and respond to it.
Pastor Shelley, thanks for having me tonight.
You know, if there's anything that is better than The Baptist Bias, it's extra, a little
extra Baptist Bias, a Saturday night edition of our show.
So for those of you that are just filing in to the chat room, call your friends, call
your family, let them know we're on the air and join us.
Can you get anything better than The Baptist Bias Ben?
You know what, at the risk of sounding a little prideful, I will say yes, there are many things
that are better.
You know, it's not prideful, it's just biased.
There you go.
You're reining me in.
I appreciate that.
There you go.
So, of course, excited to do a little show tonight and talk about this sermon that was
preached about our church and, you know, not everybody that preaches about us or preaches
about our doctrinal position is necessarily a bad person.
It could just be that they're off.
And in this particular situation, we're not really bringing up someone that's necessarily
a bad person.
In fact, it sounds like they're exactly right on the gospel and it's probably even a good
church to be a part of.
It's just that they don't really like our doctrine and that's fine.
I actually invited these people on the show if they would be willing to have a discussion,
but they didn't really want to.
You can pull this up on the screen.
We've got a message from Reverend Tom Frazier.
He's not the actual pastor of this church, but I think he's just one of the teachers
that fills in and he preached an evening service at the First Baptist Church in Lando
Lakes, Florida.
It's out there in the middle of Florida somewhere, which that's where you're from, right Ben?
I moved here from Florida and so I'm assuming there's a anti-Florida joke or some kind of
comment coming next to which I would say I'm going to preemptively disagree.
Can any good thing come out of Florida?
There it is.
I don't know.
I feel like I was set up for something there.
No, I love Florida, but spiritually there's some issues there.
Of course there's a lot of bad churches, but this is, again, not one of them in the sense
that I believe this individual is saved and so I want to be clear that I'm not, and Pastor
Shelley isn't either, attacking the character of this individual or trying to go personal
with this guy or anything like that. We're responding to the doctrine and I think since
Stepfast Baptist Church's name was evoked, we have the right to do that. We have the
right to respond to what was said and that's exactly what we're doing. It's not personal,
it's just business. We also are hosting a spaces and in the spaces we're going to give
people an opportunity to share their opinion on this as well. Before we really bring on
some of the guests though, I want to try and get through a little bit of this sermon just
kind of get it going. You and me can provide some commentary here but we're just going
to be watching it and you can watch it with us. We're going to react together. We'll probably
pause it here and there and so I'm ready to get started. You can join me at bandpastor
on Twitter in our spaces and you can come in there. We'll try to add you as a speaker
but we'll probably just wait until maybe 30, 40 minutes into the show before we start integrating
some of our space speakers but you can join us over there. We'd love to get your feedback.
You can also post comments in here. You can join us on locals. We got about 130 people
already in the show, Ben, live. That's great. A lot of comments in there. And so, people
are saying Florida sucks, Ben. What do you think about that?
Well, whoever said that obviously doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.
I'm just kidding. Who is this here? We got Wendy the Baptist in there and we've got Broj
Stu and some other, one other individual there, NB4 Janney's. So, make sure that you file
into the chat if you put something that is worthy of being mentioned. I have the chat
room right here in front of me. I will respond to it.
All right. So, I think we're good. They didn't really say anything bad about Florida.
Look at this person that says Florida is great.
Florida is great. There you go.
All right. My new favorite person.
Hey, you know, honestly, the beaches in Florida are pretty great.
They are. And if you like golf, which I know you do, there's the Ponte Vedra, which has
gorgeous golf courses.
We always have TPC Sawgrass. TPC Sawgrass.
Yep. There you go. You should explain a lot of golf to us. That would probably be pretty
common.
We should do a whole podcast where I commentate golf.
Okay.
What do you think about that?
Well, let's go ahead and get into this. And I'm sure we have this trimmed. I don't know.
We'll get it started.
I think it's the full deal.
Let's, okay.
Oh, okay.
We'll go ahead and see if we can play some of this.
All right.
I tried my button, but it didn't seem to want to work. Let me refresh. There we go.
The title of tonight's message is Israel, about Israel. You ain't seen nothing yet.
Amen.
And the thing is, I like to start with a particular troubling piece of news and it has to do with
anti-Semitism, which we've heard about a lot in the news ever since October 7th, the attack
on Israel and the protests have been on our campuses and around towns. And usually we
associate the kind of anti-Semitism we've been seeing with a certain part of our country,
a certain persuasion, but the troubling news I have for you at first is that-
I think that's what he meant there, leftist.
I looked up, it's a group within Baptist, it's called, this is Steadfast Baptist Church,
it's in Texas. And there are several small satellite churches of Steadfast Baptist Church
to Texas, and these satellite churches hold the same view. So I went online and I looked
at their beliefs, and they have one section and it's called false doctrines. So I thought
I would be interested in reading what they call false doctrine. Now they call themselves
a new, independent, fundamental Baptist church. And one of the first tenets of their beliefs
is King James Bibles, only King James Bibles. And so they go on and then I saw that they
had a pastor give the gospel. So I wanted to listen to that. It was so clear. It was
so right on. About salvation by faith and a lot of our works. And that you could be
secure in Christ.
It was so right on. Here, pause it for just a second. Let me see your tablet, because
my button doesn't seem to be working. I just want to make sure I can pause it.
You could use it from there if you want.
I mean, so far, pretty good, right?
Well, I like that he said it was so clear about your gospel presentation. It was right
on. So at the very least, even though we're about to get into where we disagree, at the
very least, this guy agrees with us on the essential doctrine of salvation by grace through
faith alone and once saved, always saved. So I would have to, you know, believe that
this is a brother. I think it is. I think this is a brother.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so I am persuaded that this is a brother in Christ. At the very least, we agree on
that, and that's a good thing. So we'll get that out of the way first.
Well, and at the same time, he also is King James only.
King James only.
Baptist.
I mean, for me, from a church perspective, my fellowship is basically, you're King James
only, you're Baptist, you're right on the gospel.
And you're good to go.
Potentially capable of being my friend, fellowshiping with you. Obviously, if you were mean towards
our church or attacking our church, I probably wouldn't necessarily want you to come and
preach for us or something like that. But again, this is pretty much my test for fellowship.
King James only, you're Baptist, you got the right gospel. I mean, hey, our church should
be able to fellowship with your church in theory and you as a preacher and everything
else.
You're obviously way too close-minded.
Yeah. That's basically where I'm at from a fellowship perspective. Now, of course,
we're just talking about going out, talking to people, being nice, bringing people on
our show. We're way more far-reaching than that. In fact, I pretty much am willing to
bring anybody on the show that's not a reprobate. I'm not even saying that I wouldn't necessarily
debate a reprobate or something like that potentially, but we try to give reprobates
the cold shoulder when it comes to the baptist bias, but outside of that, we'll bring all
kinds of people on. We brought Catholics. We brought people that are not very religious,
different denominations, things like that. And it's not to be ecumenical in a sense that
we're trying to be like them, but we're trying to bring our baptist bias, reach people where
they're at, influence them in a positive direction. But this guy's different. This guy is even
a step closer. He's someone that we would say, "Hey, this guy could be in our church.
This guy is something that we could have a closer fellowship with." And obviously, one
thing to correct, we don't have satellites all over the world. I know to contrary belief
you know, Steadfast is everywhere, but actually right now we only have one. We have one in
Oklahoma City and a great church right now. Brother Dylan Oz is leading our church over
there and God willing, maybe in this near future, he might end up even taking that church
on as pastor. And so, shout out to Steadfast OKC. Not only is it Brother Dylan Oz, but
there's a lot of great people in that church.
I hope they're watching.
Yeah. Great people in that church.
Better be Steadfast OKC.
If you're anywhere over there, shout out.
Don't let me down.
This is Steadfast OKC.
It's a great church.
Let's go ahead and keep going.
I want to see.
Yeah.
My, my tablet button and try refreshing it.
Well, I did, but did you turn it off and turn it back on again?
Yeah.
Did you not?
Do you know how to hit the buttons?
So we're going to go ahead.
Just go ahead and play.
And I'll just say something you can know that you're going to heaven when you die.
So far, I'm thinking this is pretty good.
Amen.
There are two independent fundamental Baptist Church movement.
As I went through the false doctrines, I agreed with some of these too.
They have a false doctrine being the charismatic movement, a false doctrine being Calvinism.
I can check these off as being something so far that I agree with.
A false doctrine of using repent of your sins in order to be saved.
Amen.
Repent of your sins if you mean to turn from your sins in order to go to heaven, then why
do we need a savior?
Right.
If you can turn from your sins.
Again, he's right here.
Preach.
Spot on.
Amen.
So I'm agreeing.
We don't take issue with this section of the.
Ecumenicalism.
Pentecostal oneness.
But there were two things that it got my attention.
And one is the pre-tribulational rapture.
So evidently the steadfast Baptist church, we're talking Baptist circles, folks.
And this is the new independent fundamental Baptist circles.
I'm not part of them.
Our church isn't part of them.
But amongst the new IFB, they do not believe that before the rapture, I mean before the
tribulation, there'll be a rapture.
The second thing I really--
Because it's not in the Bible.
Matthew 24.29, I think, makes that clear.
Jew worship.
That's what they say.
Pause that again.
We might roll that back.
Roll that back.
Five seconds.
Yeah.
He said, okay, we don't believe in the pre-trib rapture, which A, he didn't provide any verses
for that.
Secondly, then he brings up the second false doctrine on our doctoral statement that he
doesn't like.
Let's play that again.
I'm out of clear.
Jew worship.
All right.
That's what they say.
Pause it again.
I want to see, is it possible to turn him up just a hair because he seems just a little
bit quiet for me and I just want to see if we can just get the volume up just a little
bit more.
Jew worship.
I also don't know, can we go to my screen for just a second because I want to go to
our website and see if we can.
He's looking at our doctrinal statement.
Pull up our doctrinal statement.
There's a false doctrines section of our doctrinal statement.
So if you go to our website and you go to the About Us, the doctrine is the first tab
there.
We have several different doctrinal beliefs there and then core doctrines, important doctrines
and then I have a list of major sins and then I have like at the very bottom false doctrines.
So he brought up the Charismatic Movement and he said, "Yep, bad.
That's bad."
So he agrees with us.
He agrees with us how Calvinism is wrong.
He agrees with us, "Repent of your sins is wrong."
And then he brings up how he doesn't agree with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture even though
we put a bunch of verses here.
And then also I have this racism/Zionism and then I put Jew worship, unconditional Israel
support and then a bunch of verses.
What's so funny to me is that he didn't bring up racism/Zionism and then I was specific
about what I believed on that, that that means Jew worship.
Isn't it weird that he just cherry picked that particular phrase?
Like why didn't he just read the entire thing here?
I mean I think it's obvious that he felt like Jew worship was more provocative and that's
the point that he wanted to stick to for whatever reason.
What I'm concerned about is...
But would that mean that he thinks it's good to worship Jews?
And that's what I was about to say, like I'm a little concerned that Jew worship would
even be a sticking point with anyone.
It shouldn't matter what it says, even if it's a Christian worship, hypothetically.
Hey, our politics need to learn this, we shouldn't be doing Jew worship.
Yeah, like you shouldn't worship any man, so there shouldn't be a sticking point there.
I don't think so.
And I'm not saying that this guy is arguing for...
You can join us in our spaces, I put that up over here.
But it seems like the fact that we're against Jew worship is somehow anti-Semitic, perhaps
according to that message, and I don't agree with that sentiment whatsoever.
I want to see also if we can get, can we get a button on our screen here to switch camera
views?
That would be cool too, and then let's go ahead and see, let's see if, I think we got
our control back now, Ben, let's see, let's see if we get some magic here, ready?
Jew worship.
Yeah, Jew worship.
That's what they say, as a false doctrine, Jew worship.
And I'm thinking, wait a second, what we associate with anti-Semitism is not usually
in Baptist circles.
Wait a minute, okay, now he equates Jew worship with anti-Semitism.
So if I say, I don't want to worship Jews, I'm now an anti-Semite?
Am I interpreting that wrong?
It seems like the opposition to worshiping Jews is being labeled as anti-Semitic in this
sermon.
You are not interpreting that wrong.
That appears to be what he is saying.
If you oppose Jew worship, you must then be anti-Semitic.
I mean, is this not crazy?
In my mind, I just feel like it's preposterous because it shouldn't matter what it says if
it says Christian worship or Muslim worship, whatever.
It shouldn't be a controversial statement to say we shouldn't worship people who believe
in an anti-Christ false religion, a satanic, wicked, blasphemous false religion, and I don't
mean to get ahead of myself here.
Yeah, but wait a minute.
Just insert any other word before that.
What if I said Islam worship?
Exactly.
Or black worship, or white worship, or any-- America worship.
Wouldn't you have to say that we have to be against worshiping America as Christians?
We shouldn't-- I mean, we should only worship the Lord Jesus Christ.
Like, I don't even understand how this is a--
You're basically saying idolatry.
Conflation.
You don't believe in idolatry.
Or racism.
That was the first line in this particular false doctrine, racism, because if you think
the Jews are more special than the, quote, Goyim or Gentiles, then is that not a form
of racism?
I think it is.
I mean, racism by definition is believing that one particular group of people are superior
to another group of people, and of course that can be based on race, ethnicity, just
any kind of outward physical characteristics, maybe even geography, heritage, lineage, something
like that, and to say that Jews are more special than Christians or just anybody would be a
form, a form of racism that I think is necessary to call out because there are some people
that are kind of just giving a blank check to the monitoring of Israel and to Jews as
if no matter what they do, they're just extra special and they're a certain class of citizen
that's above the rest of us, and so if you think anything negative about them, it's just
automatically anti-Semitism. In fact, including not worshipping them. Is this not like Haman
in the Bible where if you don't bow down and literally worship Haman, you're somehow anti-Semitic?
I mean, what do you think about that parallel with Mordecai refusing to bow to Haman?
Yeah, I mean, obviously that's what set him off, and it seems like the same is true for
some of our Baptist brethren where if you refuse to bow down to the "Haman," which
is a type of Jew, according to how Pastor Shelley is applying it, and I agree with
him, then, you know, it leads to them freaking out. I do want to mention that
Bro J. Stu in the chat room said, "I assume he thinks Jew worship is a slang
for anti-Israel, not as in the literal Jew worship." And to give her the benefit
of the doubt, it's possible that he's actually responding to an anti-Israel
sentiment, an anti-Zionist sentiment, and not defining more clearly what it is
that he's arguing against. But on the surface, on the surface, it seems like
he's taking issue with our opposition to Jew worship. And so on the surface it
sounds preposterous, even though I do think it's likely that what he's
actually responding to is an anti-zionist sentiment. And I want to
make sure you can join us on Spaces on X. I want to make sure you guys that are
in Spaces, can you give me like a thumbs up or something if you can end up
hearing me? I'm just kind of want to, I just want to make sure that we're
broadcasting correctly and you can hear us in there okay. Of course we'll get to
some speakers here in a moment, but I want to play again some more of this and
we kind of set the tone a little bit. We'll go ahead and just start kind of
watching a lot more of this and then we can give some feedback here in a minute.
But thanks for joining us on the show and of course oh nice we got some thumbs
up in there it looks like we're good. So I just wanted to double check on that.
Let's go ahead and play a little bit of more of this. If you got a question you can
pop it in the chat as well. But here amongst some Baptist and fundamental
Baptist believers they're listening as a false doctrine to worship. Now that
bothers me. I don't know about you. It really bothers me because I don't want
to be associated the Baptist name to be associated with anti-Semitism but it can
be and it's an important... Wait one more quick comment. Maybe I should just below
that add another doctrine false doctrine anti-Semitism and then just like explain
what anti-Semitism is and how I don't actually agree with that. What do you
what do you think about that? Well the word Semite is it let me start over the
word Semite encompasses more than just religious Jews and first of all they're
white people anyway first of all and second of all a lot of Arabs fall under
that well how about just ethnic Jews or ethnic Jews but ethnic Jews my point is
anybody from the Middle East basically you know I'm pretty sure I'm like 99%
sure aren't you from Lebanon aren't you some Lebanese is Semitic and you're a
good friend of mine so if you hated some if you hated people who are on the
show ethnicity then why are you friends with them but pastor Shelley maybe you
should add that and we'll see how they respond to it right no I mean I'm just
you know I'm just kind of curious I just for me and I don't know if you feel the
same way but I just kind of get frustrated with this label of anti
Semitic because what do they even mean by that what is a semi according to you
well is it according to Christ hating you yeah but how about this is it
according to the Holocaust Museum that said by saying the Jews killed Jesus
you're anti Semitic is is that the type of Baptist he doesn't want to hang out
with like this is this is frustrating when they won't define their own terms
or define these terms for us at least so that we have some idea of what we're
even fighting against because you know maybe we're fighting a straw man here we
don't know we but it's a black box it's like oh I don't want to be associated
with anti Semitic you know Baptist what does that even mean and again the word
Semite encompasses many different people including many Arabs I'm Arab so I don't
feel like I'm part of an anti Semitic church I think the problem is they
attribute that word only to Christ hating Christ rejecting Jews someone in
the chat says I'm okay being labeled that well obviously you know it just
means that you have some kind of a brain your head most of the time when you're
and I'm pretty sure the person who said that is Semitic as well I might be wrong
but I'm fine I know who that is I think and I believe he's not but it's easy to
think that and I'm not I'm not in any way knowing anything about what's being
asked this new pastor but I know that one of the questions should be what do
you think of Israel what do you think of God's chosen people of Israel is God
done with them well he's not done with the true chosen people of Israel but
modern-day Israel is not them we'll just keep playing yeah that kind of question is
sometimes not asking we just assume if they have the Baptist name they're gonna
be a lover of God's chosen people Israel but now that's not to be taken for
granted yeah okay I have I have to say one quick comment does this mean that I
have to love Ivanka Trump that's what I want to know does this mean I have to
love Rabbi Shmueli or whatever his name is does it mean I have to love Harvey
Weinstein George Soros do I have to love George Rothschild's do I have to love do
I have to love Netanyahu do I do I have to love every single person in Hollywood
Larry Silverstein is this why Christians love Hollywood so much I mean maybe that's
why they love Hollywood I mean you have to right if you want to bless Israel you
better go down that movie ticket theater and buy a movie ticket right now Hollywood
movie right now are you a lover of Israel bless the Jews God not done me
all right let's keep Romans chapter 11 will you turn there because anytime you
think about what should be the church's attitude about the Jewish people Romans
chapter 11 answers that question and Paul is going to answer the question in
Romans chapter 11 is God done with Israel if God done with them and Romans
chapter 11 we're going to look at this tonight let's look first at the forest
and then we'll look at some of the trees and that's all the time we'll have when
I say let's look at the force let's divide the chapter up if you like to
draw lines under sections of the of the chapter like this I see that verses 1
through 10 are one section that answer a question and the first question that's
asked is have God cast away his people now the Apostle Paul is writing this and
he in this is going to in verses 1 to 10 he's going to answer that question has
God passed away the people of Israel the next section it's almost the next 10
verses the next section verses 11 through 21 is going to answer the question that
starts in verse 11 has Israel fallen permanently there's probably no doubt
that Israel has stumbled but that question that Paul is trying to answer
in starting verse 11 is have they stumbled to the point that they can't
get up anymore have they stumbled to the point that God is not going to revive
them or use them anymore have they stumbled to the point that they're
fallen but they can't get up just about the next ten verses in Romans chapter
11 verses 22 to 32 it's a warning to Gentile believers now we're trying to
look at the forest and Romans chapter 11 before we try to focus on some of the
trees but the fact is so far I see about ten verse sections answering one
question answering another question and then the next ten verses are about
Gentile believers watch out Paul addresses Gentile believe what what are
we watching out for because if we're watching out about being replaced or
or or desolate doesn't that mean then the Jews could also be that way I mean
if the warning is watch out because what happened to them can happen to you then
my question would be whatever can happen to Gentiles could happen to them but it's
almost like they pretend like we could be cast out and cast aside and done with
and replaced but they can't but it's funny because that's the passage is
actually saying that comparing the two and saying they're both in the same boat
in a sense right which again he hasn't even answered in these questions it's
like have have God cast away his people well the Bible just says God forbid but
then it explicitly says in verse 1 it I mean this is the Apostle Paul writing he
says for I also am an Israelite so here's a question Ben do you hate the
Apostle Paul of course not do you despise the Apostle Paul of course not
do you love the Apostle Paul of course I do see I mean yeah how am I
anti-semitic do you do you love the chosen people of God yes I do I do love
Abraham Isaac and Jacob and I love David and I love Matthew Mark and Luke and I
love John and I love Paul and I love of course all of these first century Jews
who got saved and turned to the Lord and we have many examples of people who are
Jewish in that context of being from the the nation of Judah or Jerusalem
specifically in the first century yes I love those people and I'm glad they got
saved and I'm glad that they spread the gospel everywhere which is the context
and the context is basically Paul saying is there still anybody out there that is
of this particular nation that can still be redeemed and the question is yes the
question is yes right that he's not cast all of them away yet they're not
completely done yet and the people that got saved he's not done with those
people those people are still in the tree they're still in the branch they're
still grafted they're not they didn't get replaced or something like that the
question is what's gonna happen to all the people that didn't get saved or
believe in him and of course we see you know the example in Romans chapter
number 11 in verse 17 and if some of the branches be broken off and thou being a
wild olive tree were grafted in among them and with them partake of the root
and fatness of the olive tree now notice this is an important word in verse 17
some did it did it say been that every single branch was broken off some some
because oh that's an interesting word yes why because the Apostle Paul never
got broken off and Matthew didn't get broken off and John didn't get broken
off and Peter didn't get broken off but some were broken off otherwise this
verse would make no sense and then some were grafted in who were the people
that are grafted in those who believed Timothy right yeah Titus you have Titus
Philemon Philemon yeah Onesimus the the Jews that were in those areas but not
only the Jews that were in those areas the Gentiles that were in those areas
where Paul went out and preached the gospel Jew and Gentile were being
brought into the fold that weren't already in the fold and so of course
again that doesn't mean that Gentiles are more special than Jews it doesn't
mean that Jews are more special than either I mean basically he broke down
the middle wall of partition between us is what Ephesians chapter 2 brings up I
mean am I am I really not answering these questions no I think that so far
you're in agreement that the chapter is essentially making a distinction between
believing Israel and unbelieving Israel and making the point that unbelieving
Israel still can get saved if they believe and that's the part that I feel
like our old IFB brethren is missing if they believe if they abide not still in
unbelief the Bible says but pastor Shelley it seems like that is where and
we're gonna get into it that is where they kind of go off the deep end here
when it comes to Romans chapter 11 because free will we will find out goes
out the window once we hit verse 26 yeah well and see here's the thing it says in
Romans chapter 18 we're not supposed to boast against the branches that's what
he's bringing up verse 19 he says that will this is then this is what we would
say the branches are broken off that I might be grafted yeah and they say in
verse 20 well because of unbelief they were broken off so and now it's not like
oh I decided that Gentiles are better than Jews so I'm gonna replace them it
was no the only reason they got broken off is because they didn't believe it's
because they made a mistake they rejected the gospel they didn't get
saved and so therefore they were broken off we are graft in but not because
they were broken off but we were brought we were grafted in because we
believed they were broken off because they did not believe not because I'm
more special or they're less special it's not about the ethnicity about the
race about the nation or any of these things but at the same time instead of
God continuing to have a physical nation that represents him he changes to the
church and how is that not the fact of history I mean where is the Jewish
nation from 70 AD until 1948 did it exist been no no so what but did the
church exist absolutely and the church still exists so of course God has made a
change in the New Testament that he no longer has a physical nation here he
represents a spiritual nation and you know I posted on my Twitter account an
interesting quote from Roger Williams the first like basically one of the
first Baptist in America ever he said this the state of the land of Israel the
kings and the people thereof in peace and war is proved figurative and ceremonial
and no pattern nor president for any kingdom or civil state in the world to
follow so you know again explain that if you would I believe that the right
interpretation of what he's saying here and it's pretty clear in the broader
context is he's basically saying yeah of course right now in Israel there's still
people that live there kings and people and there's been these holy wars even if
you study history there was a major holy war between Islam and the Roman Catholic
church in that particular area of the world I think there's a movie about it's
called like the kingdom or something it had that what was the name of the guy
that's in that movie Orlando Bloom I think Orlando Bloom is one of the main
actors in that particular film I don't know him from Adam I think it's let's
let's look it up Orlando Bloom Kingdom of Heaven that was the name of the movie
there's like a movie about this I've never seen the movie I just I just
basically know that it's it's about like some of the Crusades I thought that
maybe this would talk about the timeline I think it's like loosely based on
history you could you could fact-check that on me but essentially that
particular movie is about that but I think what he's saying Roger Williams is
saying here is that hey while there's been that stuff the nation of Israel now
is still just kind of like figurative and ceremonial like there's nothing
legitimate about the nation of Israel at this point and it's not for us to ever
have another physical nation of Israel and that all the stuff that we have in
the Old Testament is for us to use as a figure or or some kind of a picture for
how nations should be modeled right so and that's how we look at it we look at
don't we look at the the ceremonial laws as being just a figure at this point
it's not literal like we're not doing animal sacrifices we're not doing any
of these things which is simply using them and the difference between animal
sacrifices of like the clean unclean animals that was figurative of the Jews
and the Gentiles that Peter's supposed to rise up slay and eat so I think that
he's making it abundantly clear look the Old Testament stuff is now is now
spiritually understood not carnally at this point nor ever ever for us to do
anymore yeah so this guy's not prosinist oh for sure for sure I think I get the
gist of it now after you explained it and doesn't I mean is that not kind of
what you're reading here yeah no for sure maybe I should have zoomed in a
little bit so people could have seen that a little bit better but yeah there
it is right there we've got some people in our space so thanks guys we'll try
to add some you guys as a speaker here in a moment let's keep going because we
really haven't gotten much into the sermon yes we could end up specifically
in Rome about what they should think about the Jewish people now I just I
could stand up here anybody could stand up here and say we should love the
Israel that God's chosen people and we go on and on and on but I'm not
interested in doing that I'm interested in seeing what Paul said and what he's
saying is a warning to us because I believe most of the people in this room
are of Gentile background now if you were Jewish background okay Paul is not
talking to you in that point but he is talking to most of us when he says you
watch out what you think of God's people of Israel don't get the wrong idea about
them and wait a minute is this a don't get the wrong idea about them or does it
say don't boast against the branches and again he's talking to nation groups
here so just to be clear we're not talking about individual salvation
because I know this is a separate topic but the only reason I bring it up is
because a lot of these heretics who think that you could lose your salvation
will take Romans 11 20 where it says well because of unbelief they were
broken off and thou standest by faith be not how mighted but fear for if God
spared not the natural branches take heed lest he also spare not thee and it
goes on and it talks about how you know you could be broken off potentially if
you you know if the Gentile nations choose to reject the gospel they could
end up getting broken off from that all the tree but it's not talking about an
individual but well let me I want to come on on that and then I want to bring
on a verse up isn't the way that we would get broken off is if we say oh I
guess God now just thinks Gentiles are more special than Jews and the reason
why we have God's blessing is because we're Gentiles not because we believe
to the gospel and therefore if we have a generation that we raise that doesn't
actually get saved and believe the gospel God would potentially remove the
church from us or destroy us as a result not so not saying if you don't like Jews
enough you're gonna get you're gonna get ripped out of the altar I mean look at
the Apostle Paul's attitude in Acts chapter 13 verse 45 but when the Jews
saw the multitudes they were filled with envy and spake against those things
which were spoken by Paul contradicting and blaspheming then Paul and Barnabas
waxed bold and said it was necessary that the Word of God should first have
been spoken to you but seeing he put it from you and judge yourselves unworthy
of everlasting life well we turn to the Gentiles wait I thought that the
Apostle Paul was who we're supposed to be listening to in this guy's sermon I
don't remember when they possible said oh but you guys are Jews you're special
don't worry about it you're awesome sorry that I bothered you guys in your
blaspheming of God and your rejection of the gospel I'm sorry that I interrupted
your little you know Antichrist meeting that you're having here I mean it what
is Paul's attitude in the book of Acts towards the Jews it's a harsh rebuke
it's referring to them as unworthy of everlasting life it's frustration and
anger over and over again pastor Shelley and you brought this up in one
of your sermons where you said when did they stop being unworthy of everlasting
life somebody said beans and chili is blasphemy I agree that might be going a
little far but that's okay oh we're getting off topic we don't want to lose
this question then we're gonna put you on the hot spot
oh great what's better Texas or Florida oh great okay I will I will give you a
politicians answer spiritually Texas is way way better I would say carnally
Florida is better hmm I think it's both and I've just been banned from the
Baptist Bias yeah it's Beth well you can be wrong but yeah all right let's keep
going congregation the last verses of chapter a roll of Romans chapter 11 they
end with one of the greatest praises that Paul ever wrote and you you put it
all together and you find out that what he answers these questions when he gives
this warning and he shows how God is he's a master at putting things together
that look impossible and he praises God in a way that is just amazing look at
what it says I know we're looking at the end first but look what it says
starting in verse 30 look what it says starting in verse 33 verse 33 oh the
depth of the rich okay I want to stop here it was funny oh let's read verse 30
let's read verse 30 and he was like oops let's read verse 30 for as he in times
past have not believed God yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief
even so have these also now not believed that through your mercy they also may
obtain mercy for God has concluded them all an unbelief that he might have mercy
upon all so Romans 30 through 32 is saying okay you Gentiles you didn't
believe in times past right but now some of you have believed right you've
obtained mercy and perhaps it's because of their unbelief whose unbelief Jewish
unbelief and as a result of the Jewish unbelief it sent Apostles out into the
rest of the world to preach the gospel even so have these also now not believed
Jews have not believed still that through your mercy they also may obtain
mercy so okay so us as Gentiles we need to be gracious unto Jews to give them a
chance to get saved but verse 32 for God hath concluded them all in unbelief that
he might have mercy upon all what what does that mean in verse 32 been and I'll
let you have the first stab at it and then I'll give my comment well they're
all in unbelief and the so I was all Jews so all Jews are unbelievers well not
necessarily all of them but I think what he's trying to say is that he concluded
them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all meaning that they can
still get saved they have an opportunity to get saved I believe but go ahead if
you well I think that I think that what the verse 32 is saying is he saying he
concluded all the Jews in unbelief so that he could get rid of the Jewish
nation he get rid of Israel that then he could have mercy on all nations okay and
that's all Gentiles which would be important to then understanding verses
33 through I believe he's going to read the rest through 36 here but let's go
and read or let's let him read both of the wisdom and knowledge of God exclamation
point how unsearchable are his judgments in his ways past finding out
exclamation point for who has known the mind of the Lord who had been his
counselor or who have first given to him and it shall be recompensed again unto
him again for of him and through him and to him are all things to whom be glory
forever amen you realize that when we grasp what Paul says in Romans
chapter 11 about the Jewish people that we can burst into the same praise now
taking out of its context any of these particular sessions they might lose some
of their impact if we don't realize he's talking about Gentiles who are
believers becoming anti-semites what when did that happen in this passage what
was the verse that said Gentiles becoming anti-semite no it doesn't exist
I think that he's twisting the boastful right yeah I think that again the theme
is that they could still get saved if they believe on Christ if they believe
the gospel they could be grafted in there's nothing here about Gentiles
becoming anti-semitic at all I think this is what he's misunderstanding I
think there's a lot of people are misunderstanding God cast away the
nation of Israel in the sense that they're no longer a nation but he didn't
cast away the people because he still gives every single one of those Jews an
opportunity to be safe to be saved yeah so he's concluded them all in
belief that he might have mercy upon all meaning he's gonna let the whole world
hear the gospel anybody can still get saved and even those Jews when the
nation gets scattered and they get scattered into you know in 70 AD and they
get basically just dismantled and put all over the world it's not that those
individuals are doomed because their nation was doomed those individuals
could still get saved and we should still provoke them unto the they're
supposed to be provoked under jealousy by the fact of okay well God obviously
took his blessing off of Israel by destroying the nation and look how the
church is prospering so therefore it should provoke them under jealousy to
then say like I still want God therefore I need to believe in Jesus Christ and
get saved and then be a part of the church I mean how is that not the
narrative of Romans 9 10 and 11 that he wants them to be saved Paul desiring to
them be saved but they're gonna be concluded in unbelief they're gonna lose
their nation God's broken them off yet that doesn't mean they couldn't still be
graphed in in the sense that he's breaking off the entire chunk here
dispersing the Jews in 70 AD but that doesn't mean that the individuals
couldn't be saved and again this has nothing to do with being an anti-semit
I don't believe that it's saying that a Jew I'm sorry a Gentile that hates Jews
is gonna magically now not be in the branch because that would be work
salvation wouldn't it right I mean look racism is wrong and being against just
if you just hate all Jews because of their ethnicity or something that would
be wrong it'll be a sin but that doesn't mean you're gonna go to hell you know
this is this is you know unpopular opinion but you know members of the KKK
and Nazi Party that believed in Jesus Christ were still saved yes albeit that
was super evil and wicked and I don't want to be a part of those groups
necessarily but it's just kind of funny that he's just like conflating these
things and he's not he didn't he didn't show a verse in Romans chapter 11 that
talked about anti-semitism now the closest you can get is just the idea
that he's trying to affirm that physical Israelites who have not believed can
still believe and that's in verse 1 I say then had God cast away his people
God forbid for I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham of the tribe of
Benjamin so he uses Paul uses himself as evidence for the fact that these
people can still be saved if they believe on Christ and again we're
talking about what are we talking about here the New Testament we're talking
about the New Covenant how can a physical Israelite get in on the New
Covenant that was prophesied in the book of Jeremiah that was prophesied I
believe in Ezekiel chapter 36 I believe where it talks about how God's gonna
give his people a new heart how are they going to get that new heart how are they
gonna get in on those wonderful promises by believing and they can believe from
11 tells us that that's the theme back to you no that's a good point and in a
comments WRLATX says Florida is mid has nothing to do with our stream tonight
stay on topic chat room I don't like it someone said Idaho is greater than Texas
someone that's also a lie come on said is that Dylan Idaho yeah I don't know
I've heard that I does like little Texas so I'd be willing to put it you know
somewhere behind Texas in the list but it's hard it's hard for me to get
behind the Idaho doctrine it's too cold that's just my that's my problem I like
it hot I have warm hot Florida has beautiful weather I have to admit it
does but also has hurricanes it well the hurricanes are exciting
hurricanes are exciting exciting felonies are fun yeah okay let's keep
playing and he's warning against them doing that so again my authority it
doesn't mean anything don't become anti-semitic but the fact is that Paul
says don't fall into that trap no let's look a little more closely at the
verses will you look back in chapter 11 verse 1 11 verse 1 Romans 11 verse 1 it
says I say then hath God cast away his people God forbid for I also am an
Israelite of the seed of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin God hath not cast
away his people which he foreknew what you know what the scripture sayeth of
Elias how he make it intercession to God against Israel saying Lord they have
killed by prophets and take down thine altars and I am left alone and they
seek my life but what sayeth the answer of God unto him I have reserved to
myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal even
so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election
of grace and if my grace and it is no more of works otherwise grace is no more
grace the great verse right here if it be of works then it is no more grace
otherwise work is no more work what then Israel has not obtained that which he
seeketh that for but the election hath obtained it and the rest were bloated
make a comment before we go on let's look a little more carefully at verse
okay verse 7 proves the elect are not Israel because it says Israel has not
obtained that which he seeketh for but the election has obtained it your
response to that election means chosen exactly I mean what do we do on the
election day we're losing a president so that's a great point in light of all
this and again he's I don't know what he's gonna say on this but you know so
far amen I love when people read the Bible it just sounds so good so you have
replacement theology in the chapter that anti replacement theology people always
go to let's just take back I say we just take back Romans 11 no no no that's our
chapter it's anti so you know it's anti you know Israel being God's chosen
people that's true universally all right let's keep playing the question from
what I can see in all the commentaries I read about this the question is not
meant to be a question that could have any answer but no in other words you
could reword this first question instead of asking have God cast away
people you could reword it as being God has not cast away his people has he
question mark they understand the difference there in other words don't
make it a question as it it could be he has all it doesn't really know he's not
asking you now he's saying there's no way that God is going to cast away his
people that he foreknew there's no way and his first evidence that God has not
cast away his people because if you're wondering that if you're wondering if
the nation of Israel the Jewish people they the hatred that you see expressed
towards them is this something that that we should take a middle ground or or
what's what stance we take Paul definitely says there's no way that God
would cast away his people that he foreknew and he says the number one
evidence is I am an Israelite. We already covered this. The one writing it is an
Israelite. He is Jewish. If God has cast away his people Paul's saying well look
I'm un-Jewish and God is using me. He hasn't cast me away. Right? Because he
believed. And the most interesting thing about Paul, you know when Paul got stated. Not because of his ethnicity. It's kind of
different from the others. Which he foreknew. In Romans 11, look in 1st
Corinthians 15. I mean the other Apostles. Paul's different. Look in 1st
Corinthians 15. 1st Corinthians 15, the resurrection chapter, it's a little past
where we were in Romans. 1st Corinthians 15, Paul talks about what the
gospel is. The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins. And
then he talks about the resurrection being witnessed by people. And he says
in verse, in that he was buried, verse four, in that he was buried, that he rose
again the third day according to the scriptures, that he was seen of Cephas,
then of the twelve, after that he was seen of above five hundred brethren at
once, of whom the greater part remain unto this present. But some are fallen
asleep, after that he was seen of James, then of all the apostles, and last of
all, he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. Now it's
interesting, as Paul talks about his particular experience of salvation, he
uses that term, I've seen the resurrected Christ, but I saw him last of all, as if
I'm born out of due time. Now I've always assumed he's talking about I was born
last, you know, Cephas and all these others got to see, but I was born last. But think
about this, how many of those apostles that Jesus showed himself alive to after
his resurrection were already saved? Peter was. They were all. They were already saved.
They weren't people who were persecuting Jesus. They weren't people
persecuting the church. They weren't people killing believers. You understand the
difference between when Jesus appeared to the Apostles, that is one group, and Paul
says he appeared to me last of all as one born out of due time. And it may not
be that he was born late. It could be that Paul was saying I was born early.
Now what do we call that kind of... Now what do we call that? Just saying the
opposite of what the text says? I mean, that's what we call that. I don't
understand. Okay, the context was Apostles, being an Apostle. He saw Jesus
last, isn't he? He was saying he's the last of all the Apostles. Right, so... Let's
look at the verse. Okay, verse 7. After that, he was seen of James, then of all
the Apostles. And last of all, last of all, last of all who? Last of all the
Apostles, he was seen of me also as one of born out of due time. He saw Jesus
last. And then verse 9. For I am the least of the Apostles. So the whole
sandwich here at verses 7, 8, and 9 is being an Apostle. And if this guy
explained it correctly, he even said, I've always thought that just meant he
said he was the last one to see Jesus. And it's like, right, exactly, because
it's exactly what it says. And he's like, well what if it says the exact opposite?
But it doesn't. It just doesn't say he was born early. Which
word? Show me a word that would point to early. And then he's like born out of due
time. But that was saying it was past due. He was born out of due time in the
sense that he wasn't born on the due date. It doesn't say that he was born
before the due date. It was born out of the due time. Out of due time, yeah. So it's
like way over past due. That fits the context perfectly. Nothing
about being early. He's just, the rabbit trail he's gonna go down on this is
pretty bad. But I just wanted to first cover the verse before we go down this
rabbit trail. "A birth. He was born premature." It's possible that Paul is
saying here while his particular salvation experience, here Jesus
chooses to show himself to a person, a man who was set in his mind determined
to hate Jesus. Now you notice Jesus didn't appear to Pilate. Jesus didn't
appear to Caiaphas. Jesus didn't appear to the men that nailed him to the cross.
Jesus didn't appear to all these, did he? He appeared to his disciples, to his
believers, except when we get to Paul. Now James could be also an exception, but
when we get to Paul, I definitely know Paul was not saved. I've never noticed
that side comment. What does he mean by James is an exception? I didn't get that.
Is James unsaved? I don't know. Okay. On that road to Damascus when Jesus appeared
to him, everybody agree? He's saying, "I was born last of all. I'm born differently."
And he could be meaning, "I was born prematurely." And what he could be meaning
by that, when he says in Romans 11, "I am an example of how how God is not done
with the Jews." Do you know, the Bible says that there's coming a day when the
Jewish people, Zechariah chapter 12 describes this, "They shall look upon him
whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for him." Do you understand? Yeah,
Zechariah is fulfilled in Christ being on the cross. Yep, and John,
believe John chapter number 19 is when that's fulfilled. I mean, absolutely. I
mean, even my Bible, it brings that up. Let's see, do we have an exact reference
mentioned? It says something, it alludes to Zechariah 12 in that passage, so...
Well, he's definitely pierced. Yeah, yeah, let's bring this up. I'm gonna bring this
up on the screen. Okay, so, "But one of the soldiers," John chapter 19 verse 34,
"But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came
their outblood and water." Verse 35, "And he that saw it bear record, and his record
is true, and he knoweth that he sayeth true, that you might believe. For these
things were done that the scripture should be fulfilled, a bone of him shall
not be broken. And again another scripture saith they shall look on him
whom they have, whom they pierced." So verse 37 is the direct reference to
Zechariah that he's bringing up. Exactly, and it's fulfilled then. But I also... And
here's the verse in Zechariah. Zechariah 12 verse 10, "And I'll pour upon the
house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of
supplications and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and they shall
mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son and shall be in bitterness for
him as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Now I've actually preached
through the book of Zechariah recently and chapter 12 and you could go listen
to that full sermon but the context of Zechariah 12 brings up Jesus and the
crucifixion and that timeline and this is of course a future prophecy. Zechariah
is hundreds of years and prior to Jesus Christ's crucifixion and then it's
fulfilled in John chapter number 19 which he doesn't bring up and he's
taking first Corinthians 15 which is about Paul being the last Apostle and
Romans chapter 11 which just says Paul is an Apostle. He's just like, he's like
kind of cherry-picking verses here to create a narrative but none of these
narratives are what any of these texts are saying. I will say this, I do think
that there's a dual fulfillment to that passage in Zechariah 12 to Revelation
chapter 1. Yes, you stole my thunder but it's okay. In John chapter 19, that's
your primary fulfillment and then I think that there's an end times
fulfillment when the Bible says in Revelation chapter 1 in verse 7, "Behold
he cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him and they also which
pierced him and all creatures of the earth shall wail because of him even so
amen." And then in Revelation chapter 6 it talks about the kings of the earth and
great men and rich men and chief captains hiding in the dens of the rocks
and saying, "Fall on us and hide us from him that sitteth on the throne and from
the wrath of the Lamb for the great day of his wrath has come." So my point is is
that they mourn for him in John chapter 19 but I also think you're going to see
weeping in the end times not because they changed their mind about
crucifying the Lord Jesus Christ and now they feel sad about it but rather they're
mourning because of the fact that they know God is about to pour out his wrath
on them which he then begins to do in the second half of Daniel 70th week.
Well and you read this but Revelation 1 didn't say and Jews only will see him
and who they've pierced. It said like the whole nation. Yeah everybody.
Everybody's gonna see him, everybody's gonna be mourning. Right. So it's not an
Israel only context. No. When we look at Revelation. Of course not. And again I
the reason I bring that up is because a lot of times they'll say yeah but what
about in the book of Revelation because yeah I do think there's dual
fulfillment for that passage. It's just that the end times fulfillment what we
see from an eschatological perspective is not a mass conversion of Jews but a
mass weeping of all nations that are afraid of the wrath that is now coming
upon them. Well they don't have to be unsaved because the saved are gonna be
with Christ in the clouds. Exactly. Okay let's let's keep playing. Dan that that
verse is talking about a future for the Jewish people that no matter how you
look at them now and say well they they don't believe in Jesus. They don't want
Jesus. They don't want anything to do with Jesus. I'm talking about the
majority of the Jewish people that's his first point he says yeah that's the way
I was but when Jesus appeared to me I believed. He's saying that there's a
future for Israel that no matter how unbelieving they might appear to be
right now in the land of Israel and unconcerned about Jesus and not wanting
to hear about him that he will appear to them and they will see him they will see
the one that they have pierced and they will understand and receive him as their Messiah.
You see the difference? Paul is an example of what's going to happen to the Jewish
people in the future in mass. There will be a revival. It's unbelievable and a lot
of us think, "Well, why would Jesus show himself to somebody who hates him?" He did
that with Paul. Okay. I just want to make this comment because
let's just think about this logically for a second. And I'm not against, I'm not even
against this viewpoint entirely, but I just want to think about it for a second. I understand
his logic. If these unbelieving Jews that live in the Middle East are going to see Christ
in Revelation chapter six, and then they're going to get saved after this. Well, let's
just think about a couple of things. Number one, I can't do literally anything apparently
to even get them saved because he's basically making the argument that the only thing that's
going to get them saved is an appearance of Jesus Christ. So then what's my motive to
even preach to those people? It kind of strips away my importance. Secondly, if we really
understand the Apostle Paul's conversion, I believe that the Apostle Paul still had
to go and wait for Ananias to come and preach him the gospel, okay? So let's just run with
this guy's narrative for a second. Is it possible that at Revelation 6, when Christ comes in
the clouds, the church is raptured, we all go to heaven, and there's just a bunch of
Jews still left on the earth that weren't saved, they saw the rapture and they're thinking
like, "Wow, I've really messed up," and then maybe the 144,000 come down and preach the
gospel, could we see a lot of those people end up getting saved or believing the gospel?
I think at that point it's just unknowable.
It's unknowable.
Who knows?
Who knows if a bunch of those people could get saved or could not get saved?
I think that it's unknowable if a bunch of ethnic Jews would potentially get saved.
But I would say this, the vast majority of a lot of these Jews are people who are practicing
Judaism, which is an anti-Christ religion, so it's not just like they are a little off or something.
I mean these people like hate Jesus with a burning passion and I would argue that a lot of them are
reprobates, which I don't think any reprobate is going to get saved. So again, I think it's highly
unlikely, like that would just be my personal opinion, that it's highly unlikely. I don't see
precedent in scripture. I feel like these people, they're different than the apostle Paul and I
preached a whole sermon on this. I preached Paul versus the Jews. So you should listen to that
sermon, Steadfast Baptist Church, go to our rumble. Or our website. Yeah, go to sbckjv.com,
go to the preaching tab, check out Paul versus the Jews. And I explained in detail why I don't think
that the apostle Paul is the same as a lot of these unbelieving Jews in the modern state of Israel.
Again, I'm not against the idea that many of them could get saved because that would be great. I
mean, I'm not against that. It would be wonderful, right? Right. I'm pro that idea. It's just,
is that really in the text or is that just kind of someone's speculation, Ben?
I think it's speculation. I would argue though that the timing is peculiar because if you're
going to argue for a mass conversion of Jews, I think you have to make the argument that it happens
at the Battle of Armageddon, not the rapture. That doesn't fit because if you compare Luke 21,
which talks about the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled in verse 24, "and they shall fall by the
edge of the sword and shall be led away captive unto all nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden
down of the Gentiles," which starts at the midpoint, "until the times of the Gentiles be
fulfilled." So this is a time that is fulfilled at the end of Daniel's 70th week according to
Revelation chapter 11. And so if you're going to argue for a mass conversion of Jews, I think
that's when you would have to put it, not the rapture. So the timing isn't even making sense
to me here. Well, and I have to make this point, okay? Because honestly, to even have this
conversation, I granted him a lot of points that I don't even agree with. Number one, Revelation 2
verses 9 and Revelation 3, 9 say that there's a group of people which say they are Jews and
they are not. They are the synagogue of Satan. There's been such a diaspora of the Jewish people
that now no longer is there really a race or ethnicity of Jews. It's just people that have
converted to an Antichrist religion. I would argue personally at this point in human history,
I think that everyone's Gentile. I don't believe that there's this group of people out there that
are even "Jews" when we put them in the context of Romans 11. The Apostle Paul is a Jew, yes,
but I believe that they've been intermingled too much at this point, that it's ceased to exist,
the nation has ceased to exist, the Apostle Paul and some of these individuals, they were born in
that period of time and that location with that lineage, and yes they were the children of Abraham
in a carnal sense, but at this point it's so intermixed and mingled, I believe we're all Gentiles.
So when it says the times of the Gentiles, I think just because they're all Gentiles from the true
sense that there's no such thing as Jews anymore and that would really destroy this guy's narrative.
I don't think he would like the point that I'm making, but of course I think that there was a
distinction of Jew and Gentile for a little period of the New Testament and for those early
apostles going out, but after the destruction of the nation and, I mean what, several centuries
afterward, do you even really believe they're still Jews? No, I think our genes are ubiquitous
and everybody's been mixed so much. I also don't even believe in race to begin with,
but if we're going to use their terminology, then Jews and Gentiles have been mixing together for
so long that I don't see how you can even identify them. And Pastor Shelley, when it comes to the
times of the Gentiles, would you say that that started at Calvary or do you think it starts
at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week? Yeah, I would say it loosely starts after the gospel
and it's just kind of, it's just basically the church age. I understand. And in a sense,
and that it's going to cease. I was just curious. But I mean, you know, somebody could argue that
we're still in Daniel 70th week, like a second time around, like obviously it kind of ended in
70 AD in a sense. And then it also has like a reverb for an end times fulfillment for another
week. That's going to be like a dual fulfillment. But to me, it's the times the Gentiles, the Gentiles
are with the focus. The Gentiles are the people of God. The Gentiles are the one that received the
gospel. The Jews were all concluded into unbelief. And there's no longer any distinction between Jew
and Gentile. They've all intermixed and mingled. They were supposed to, I mean, think about it.
What were Jews supposed to do? Jews were supposed to join the Christian church. Is that not correct?
Of course they were. And then was there any mandate in the New Testament for Jews to stay
pure in their marital situation? Or were they supposed to just marry a Christian?
I think that they were supposed to stay pure spiritually, meaning marry, like, we're all
commanded to marry a believer, fellow believer, but nothing carnal.
Right, but that would mean that they would mix with Gentile Christians, in theory,
and therefore they would basically be weeded out or watered down, or however you want to look at it.
Genetically speaking, yeah.
To the point where there's no such thing as an ethnicity anymore.
And again, you could say, well, all these unbelieving people just kept
intermarrying each other and cousins and whatever in all these random places in the world.
But I mean, even if you look at Jews as a whole, there's some really light-skinned Jews,
there's some really dark-skinned Jews and everything in the middle.
I don't believe this is a pure ethnic race.
And you have converts everywhere.
Ivanka Trump is now a convert.
If she has another son, is it now going to be a Jew?
Is that really supposed to be this racial purity?
Is this what this guy's advocating for, is Ivanka Trump and their children?
And so when Christ comes, a son of Ivanka Trump is going to now magically get saved
because he's God's chosen people because of a special lineage.
How is that not racism?
How is it not racist to think that there's these special people
with special blood and special skin and special whatever,
and they're the ones that are just going to magically get saved in the end times
because they get to see, and they just get to see Jesus and unbelief, right?
Obviously the Apostle Paul, I think, is a special case and he pointed that out.
May I ask a question here?
But how would I, just to go off of what you're saying,
I want to bounce off what you're saying.
How would I figure out or discern whether or not I am part of a group of people
who will magically get saved if I'm not already in the end times?
How would I figure that out?
What would I have to do?
Wouldn't I have to, if I'm unsure, take a genealogy test or some kind of test to determine?
I would have to do that.
And the Bible says to avoid genealogies.
Thank you, Titus 2.9.
But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contingencies driving about the law,
for they are what?
Unprofitable and vain.
So in order to me to figure out if I am the apple of God's eye,
God's chosen people, if I'm unsure about my family ancestry,
I would have to engage in a practice that the Bible explicitly states
is both unprofitable and vain.
I didn't even think about it, but that's a great point.
How in the world do you reconcile that?
And even if you say, "Well, I'm not having to think about mine,"
you'd have to think about theirs.
I've had people literally even just tell me, they're like,
"Well, but God knows.
God knows who his chosen people are," or something like that.
It's just like, "Come on, at this point..."
But I have to be able to identify them.
How much reality denial are we in?
I would have to be able to identify them to bless them.
And so, you know, I would...
Hey, let me see your genealogy before I know if I should bless you
according to Genesis 12.
And again, how can I identify myself without engaging in this practice?
If I want to know which group I fall under,
I would have to engage in this practice.
Okay, let's say you go out on the street, Ben,
and there's a black Hebrew Israelite and there's a Jew,
and they both spit on you and say that you're wicked and evil.
According to the Bible, you're supposed to bless the Jew, right?
So which one? Which one? Who's the Hebrew?
That's a good question. Better take a genealogy test.
Is it the black Hebrews are right? I mean, maybe they're right.
Maybe they're the ones that have a closer lineage to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
How do we not know? How do we know?
I'm skeptical about it.
We have to just believe anybody that claims they're a Jew.
I mean, this is silly, folks. We'll keep playing a little bit more of this.
Paul's saying I was born...
Space people. I believe he's saying prematurely.
I want to get to verse 26.
I'm an example of what's going to happen with the Jewish people.
The nation of Israel one day is going to see the resurrected Christ,
and they will receive him as Savior.
That's going to be Israel's future.
You ain't seen nothing yet, folks.
If you think that Israel, and it's tiny,
it's fighting its battles, it's every day on the brink of destruction.
The people of Israel right now, if they're even able to live in their homes,
wherever they go, they're going to find the nearest bomb shelter.
What about the Palestinians?
And figure out how long it's going to take them to get there when they hear the sirens.
It is a, totally, it seems like they're being cursed.
And those particular...
You know why it seems like they're being cursed?
Because they're cursed.
... moments, at those moments, think of what Paul's saying here.
God is going to do something great with that people.
And when he appears, and they see those wounds that they put in the Savior's hands,
they'll recognize what they've done.
That's what Paul did on the Damascus Road.
Go back now to Romans chapter 11.
Paul uses his first example of how God is not done with the Jewish people, it's himself.
His second example has to do with the idea of a remnant.
Anybody ever put carpet in a room, and you have some carpet left over?
What do you call that?
The remnant?
It's a small example of the big piece that you put in.
When Paul says, and I read this, but look what he says here.
Verse two, it says, "In the middle of it, what the scripture saith of Elijah, how he
makeeth intercession to God against Israel, saying, 'Lord, they have killed thy prophets
and digged down thine altars, and I am left alone, and they seek my life.'"
Be careful, folks.
If you say that Israel totally rejects Jesus, you are inaccurate, because that's what Elijah
was doing, a prophet to the northern kingdom.
And when Elijah was at his lowest, he interceded against his people.
Now, most of the time, I would hope that if you come up to me and say, "Tom, I'm interceding
for you in prayer.
I'm interceding for you every day."
I would be able to say, "That's good."
But if you said, "I'm interceding against you," if you say, "You know, that Tom, he
doesn't deserve any of your blessings, God."
In fact, it would be best if you just crispy critter him right there.
Just do it right away.
Zap him.
That kind of interceding is not the kind I would like to have.
And that's what Elijah was doing in his lowest moment.
He's praying to God, not for Israel, but against them.
God, wipe them out.
I'm all by myself.
And God answers him, "No, you're not."
There's a remnant.
"You don't see what I--"
No, there's some leftover carpet.
"You see, there are 7,000 men who have not bowed their knee to Baal,
and you just don't see them, Elijah.
Do you realize that if 1% of the population is Israel,
I have no idea what that percentage would be that believe in Jesus?
OK, I'm just going by a low number, a low percentage.
1% is part of it.
99% don't.
But if 1% of the Jewish population of the world believes in Jesus,
and then 1% of the Gentile population of the world believes in Jesus,
proportions are about the same.
I would say they're about the same proportion of Jews that believe in Jesus
as the ones that are--
Wrong.
It's got to be like 5% Gentile and like 0.1% or 0.01% Jew.
It's not the same percentage.
Gentiles don't believe in Jesus.
You go out in the street.
You go out around and ask people if they believe in Christ as their Savior.
You'll find a lot of religious people.
Or you'll find today a lot more agnostic and atheists and things.
But the fact is, just because they say they go to church doesn't mean they're saved.
Really, the percentage of the proportion of those that are saved among the Jewish population
and those that are saved among the Gentile population,
I work it out and the numbers proportionally are about the same.
And so do not look at the Jewish people and say,
"Let they reject your Christ, God's done with them."
Paul says, "Don't make the same mistake, Elijah made," and thinking he was alone.
That's a bad argument anyways.
Oh, because more Jews don't believe, then they're not different or something.
Because it's like, if you just talk to a bunch of Jews, they don't believe.
And there's plenty of Gentiles that do, and even in a percentage wise.
But, you know, I don't really agree with this logic.
Do you know where this other section is?
Because I can just fast forward.
But well, I'm going to be honest, I don't know if we just like double speeded it.
Maybe we can get to it faster.
Look, it says in Romans 11.
It says in verse 5, "Even so, then at this present time there also is a," what?
"A remnant, according to the election of grace."
Oh, look at this.
"There's no more grace, there's no more grace.
But if it works, then there's no more grace.
Otherwise, work is no more work."
What Paul is saying there is, he's saying when God saves a Jewish person,
he doesn't save that Jewish person because the Jewish person is doing the sacrifices.
He's making all the offerings just correctly and eating the right kosher foods and all that.
He saves them because they put their faith in the Savior, in the Messiah that he's provided.
So there's a remnant that has been passed away.
We're going to have an election soon.
That's the main point here.
Really, what does that mean?
Well, we're going to have our chance to choose.
And when God sees that a Jewish person puts their faith in Christ as their Savior,
they become part of the election of grace.
Now, if you're thinking, well, you know, the Jewish people,
when it comes to the election of grace, there are not many.
There are not many.
But again, proportionally, really, there are not that many Gentiles
compared to the total number of Gentiles.
Look at what it says in chapter 9, verse 30.
There's no more work after the law of right so much of offense
and whosoever believes on him should not be ashamed.
Not because they sacrificed, not because they did the law,
but because they believed God's provision that would ever grow.
You're saved by your works, but it's God's grace.
Has he at any point proven why we should worship Jews?
Unfortunately for him, no.
This has not happened yet.
Look what it says in verse 11.
Let's see if he gets to verse 15.
I'm curious what he says about verse 15.
You know, one thing I don't really like is when you
give all your application first and then tell us what the Bible says second.
Yeah, I know.
Since you kind of prove your points first from the Bible and then...
When they receive things that will be here and the kids appears and they see those wounds
in his hands and his feet and they receive him in mass.
All these Jews are just going to see and just believe in Jesus.
But Paul is kind of an example of that on the Damascus Road.
I don't know why we can't get on the front page of Rumble.
When they receive him...
Because we have more live viewers than...
When they restore the church...
I blame you.
...you bless even more.
It's you.
You're censored.
This is why at the end of the chapter Paul breaks in his wonderful praise when he realizes
that he looked like the worst possible.
God has his plan for them.
And his plan for them...
To bring in the anti-Christ?
Because we hear the coming of these people.
For I speak to whom?
You like to be kind?
I speak to you Gentiles.
Every time he uses the word "they" or "them", who's he talking about?
The Jews.
So it's very unsaved Gentiles.
He's talking to the same next month, my Jewish people.
I don't want to bring back bad memories, but do you remember back in the days,
maybe early college or late high school, when you dated people?
Sure.
Can you imagine this scenario?
I try to forget those days.
Some girl's dating a guy, and she rejects him.
He finds another girlfriend, and every time that first girlfriend sees
her former boyfriend and the new girlfriend go by laughing, having a great time,
she hears through the grapevine that this new girlfriend really, like he's so kind.
Maybe? He's saying one of the benefits of the Gentiles receiving Christ by the millions.
Millions. It's a savior. One of the results is, Paul realizes he tells the Gentiles,
then I'll be talking about a Satan. By so many millions. Do you know where this is at?
I have no idea. When they receive Christ, right? We'll find it. We only got like 13 minutes left.
No, John 3 16 won't one day be reneged on by him. That day be turned that Christ will turn his back on that promise.
Because he did it to his Jewish, the Jew. It isn't, I don't see how any Gentile believer could
ever believe that God's done with Israel. Let's, maybe this is it. No, John 3 16 won't one day
be reneged on by him. How do you know John 6 47? "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth
on me hath everlasting life." Won't one day be turned that Christ will turn his back on that
promise? Because he did it to his Jewish, the Jewish people. How do you know he won't do it to
you? "Well, the Jews never believe." It isn't, I don't see how any Gentile believer could ever
believe that God's done with Israel after all that he promised. I'm going down to verse 18.
Here's the warning. Okay, so he's in 18. "The Bram's posse be tightened into the
people, rejecting him. Go and jump into..." In verse 19. "And the first thing to do,
is to use Tomei's lightspeakers to add to what Christ did for them." Can I just make a quick
comment, whenever we have a second? He goes on and says, "Listen, the Jewish people,
can't get high-minded, but we are the example of Ernie." Sorry about this. We're just trying to
find a kind of wrapping up this sermon. We've got some people in the space. We'll get you
and some speakers here in just a second. Yeah, make your comment real quick. Okay, real quick.
So I feel like the way that he interprets, "Hath God cast away his people," in verse 2 when it says,
"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." The way he interprets that,
and you can correct me if I'm wrong in misrepresenting him, is that the Jews are
present tense right now today, "God's chosen people," because God has not cast them away,
correct? I mean isn't that the point that he's been making? You're talking about the preacher,
not the Bible? The preacher. No, no, the preacher, not the apostle. He's saying,
"God's chosen people are Jews," even if they reject Christ because the Bible says,
"God has not cast away his people which he foreknew." Right. Okay. Verse 15,
"For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world." Yeah, who got cast away? Did anybody
get cast away? That's an important question. Okay, isn't that not Jews there or physical Israelites?
He concluded them all in unbelief? What does that mean? Exactly. So, there's a distinction
between the people who have not been cast away because they believed and the people who were
cast away because they didn't believe. That's all I wanted to say. And for about 1,800 years in
between, there was no nation of Israel. Yes, exactly. And you're reading now in the same
context that Paul is writing there. Don't think God's done with the Jewish people because he's not.
It says blindness has happened unto them in part until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.
Every commentary I read about this kind of had a different thing, but here's the one I like,
so I'll share it with you, that there's a certain number of Gentiles that are going to be saved.
And when that last Gentile, the fullness of the Gentiles, when that last Gentile gets saved,
then God will turn back to the Jews. I'm not saying the last Gentile that ever lived. What
we're saying at that moment, that's the fullness of the Gentiles. So the next person you lead to
Christ, that's a Gentile, might be that person. So wait a minute. Does that mean that we should
be done with Israel right now? Is he even making that point? He's saying that God's done with
Israel until the last Gentile gets saved. That's his interpretation. I'm just saying like, is that
not what he just said? Seemingly. I think it's funny. There's a lot of different commentaries
that say completely different things. I just picked the one that I liked. Maybe he was trying
to do some comedy there. Sure. I don't want to pick on him too much. And after that will come
the rapture and the tribulation in the end. And I want to close with this. It says, "And so all
Israel shall be saved." Talking about the nation of Israel, not the individuals. "Israel shall be
saved." As it is written, "There shall come out of Zion a deliverer, shall turn away ungodliness
from Jacob." And I'm skipping down. This is my covenant. "For God," in verse 32, "has concluded
them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Now, Paul gets to that point. But what
about verse 27? How is this not like, you know, this redemption, almost like God redeeming Sodom
and Gomorrah? I mean, they are called Sodom! I mean, like, did he redeem Sodom or did he just
rain fire from heaven and, you know, fire hell and brimstone? It's like, I don't... Amen to that,
though. That's a good point. I don't see the parallel here. They're referred to as Sodom and
Egypt in the book of Revelation. Let's just try to let him finish and then we'll get some comments
here. That's maybe a secretary writing his words or that he's writing them himself, himself in the
in on the papyrus or whatever that they're writing, the parchment, that he picks up his
his phylosis pen and he thinks about what he just has said and he is filled with praise. He says God
is amazing and one of the greatest moments of praise in the New Testament is in the next verses
about this very issue that God's not done with his people. He says oh the depth, the riches, both of
the wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out
for who hath known the mind of the Lord or who hath been his counselor or who hath given to him
and it shall be recompensed unto him again. Does God owe anybody anything, right? He's God. No,
he doesn't. Does he need your advice? I think we can just cover verse 26 at this point if you're
up for it. "All Israel shall be saved" is the main argument of the Zionists. OK, so then he prays.
He doesn't ever bring us back up. Here's the thing. I want to bring some of our people in spaces. If
you want to come on the show, send me an invite on spaces for you to talk as a speaker and I'll add
you in as a speaker. We already got one guy with his hand up. Daniel, we'll get to him in just a
moment. But I want to say this about verse 26 is even if we went with his interpretation here,
and I'm going to go back to our space here, but even if we go with his interpretation,
it doesn't really change anything in my view. Like, let's just say I said, Ben, I just think
that a lot of people, like a lot of Jews might get saved after the rapture. Does that really
invalidate any, like us not being pre-trib? No. That's still compatible with our post-trib,
pre-wrath position. And then additionally, I guess here's the problem. If you take his interpretation,
especially mixed with pre-trib, then you make the entire tribulation about the Jews or something
like that. But it's really about us having to go through that tribulation and go through that
difficulty. And so that's still an important distinction. But I'm just saying, if you have
the same eschatology as us, in theory, this idea of a bunch of Jews getting saved randomly in the
end times doesn't really contradict anything. To me, it just seems like a bad idea. It's not
in the text. It's kind of contrary to a lot of their positions. And it really undermines the fact
that they're, in many cases, the synagogue of Satan. It leads to a lot of this Jew worship and
thinking that they're extra special, which is racist. And it's an unconditional support of
all the things that the nation of Israel does, including bombing Palestinians and killing all
kinds of different people, influencing our elections. I think that it's really, really bad,
and we need to have the right doctrine on this particular issue. And so I think it's really
important. I mean, to just give a simple explanation, "And all Israel shall be saved,"
I believe that's talking about the millennium. So when you talk about the times the Gentiles
being fulfilled, I think that that's the culmination of the end times. That's that
Daniel 70th week. That's that last seven years. And as soon as that's over, we enter in the
millennial reign and the physical nation of Israel will be filled with only saved people.
Because in Romans chapter nine, it brings up, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
So there's never been this perfect one-for-one match of the physical nation of Israel has also
saved Israel, and they're only elect, even though they want to call them in God's chosen,
they weren't chosen since they were all elect, and that's brought out in chapter 11.
But at some point, there will be a one-for-one, and I believe that's the millennial reign,
it'll be us that are saved with, of course, Old Testament saints as well, and that we
will make up the nation of Israel, we will be God's special nation on earth during the
thousand year reign of Christ, that's a time of peace, and we'll be the light that's going
out into the world, we'll be the ambassadors for Christ, we'll be ruling and reigning with
Christ, I mean there's all these promises about the millennial reign. I think that's a pretty
simple explanation. Do you have more that you'd like to add on that particular verse?
I'm very passionate about Romans 11 26, and I wholeheartedly agree with what you just said.
I also think that your interpretation, which is my interpretation, we're in complete alignment,
is found in the Old Testament over and over again, that one day Israel will consist of 100%
saved people and it'll be those people who inherit the land. An example of this is Psalm chapter 37,
which says the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever. You can go to
many other passages in the Old Testament as well that I think are foreshadowing this time to come.
Psalm 69, "For God will save Zion and will build the cities of Judah that they may dwell there
and have it in possession. The seed also of his servants shall inherit it and they that love his
name shall dwell therein." I can go on and on. Joel 3.17, Isaiah 60 verse 21, Jeremiah 23 verse
6 says, "In his days Judah shall be saved." Isaiah 45.17 says, "But Israel shall be saved in the Lord
with an everlasting salvation." You know again I don't want to just go forever here but the point
I'm trying to make is that this concept of the entire nation of Israel consisting of saved people
is prophesied in the Old Testament. It's found in the Old Testament and so you're right that at the
end of Daniel's 70th week that is when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. There is blindness
in part that has happened under Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles become in and then all
Israel will be saved but the thing is what that means is that it will consist of only saved people.
Why? Why would that be the case? Because the Bible says but those mine enemies which would not,
this is Jesus saying this, but those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them
bring hither and slay them before me. So I personally believe these unbelieving Jews today
they will be slain. They won't be there anymore. They'll be gone. The Bible says the iniquity of
the land in the book of Zechariah will be taken out in one day and I think that day is the battle
of Armageddon. So that is Romans 1126 in a nutshell and I would invite everybody to go look at Pastor
Shelley's sermon about this. Go to sbckjv.com if you want more detail. If you think we're not
providing enough detail right now then just go to the website sbckjv.com put Romans 11 in your F3
search bar and watch his sermon about this because he'll go into even more detail but that's my view.
Hey good points and you know again if you think about and in times theology and I'm trying to put
my mind set into like a pre-trib view just to just to understand their viewpoint a little bit
here but if all the Gentiles that are saved get saved and raptured out and then he's saying all
Israel shall be saved they would have to believe then literally Ivanka Trump, Weinstein's, Goldberg's,
all of these people in every single part of the world that hate God and spit when they hear his
name they all magically get saved including the reprobates wouldn't you? I mean it's almost like
saying reprobates would get saved and I'm not saying the Bible I'm saying think about his theology
time right if every Gentile and Jew that's saved gets raptured out and then we enter into revelation
you know first seal because according to them that the tribulation doesn't start which is the
whole seven year period in their mind until all of the church has been raptured because we have
the pre-tribulation rapture then you would have to believe that literally every physical Jew
on this earth even some of the reprobates are all going to get saved that that's contradictory to
the reprobate doctrine so you know i think we could talk about this a lot i want to give some of our
speakers they've been waiting here patiently a chance to speak and i hope that it's going
to work out of course when you do these spaces and stuff sometimes we have to text check some
of our technical difficulties one last thing of just me to take me 10 seconds what did jesus christ
say in the book of matthew to the 12 disciples they will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes
of israel during the millennium so you're going to have regenerated saints that inherit that land
of course all israel will be saved at that point great point i don't think it really proves our
side or his but that's a great point let's see if we can go to daniel and i want to see if we can
hear you and everything's working daniel how's it going all right buddy can you hear me all right
sounds loud and clear all right great uh i originally stuck my hand up because i i came
in late and couldn't tell what was going on i heard like three different voices so apparently
you're you're playing a recording of someone yeah and comment we're streaming on rumble
simultaneously and on our rumble channel we were playing a sermon so someone in florida it was
first baptist church of lando lakes florida he preached a sermon against steadfast in a sense
and look i love brother tom he's a good guy he saved he at least complimented us and said we
were saved but at the same time he was he was against us saying that we uh you have a false
doctrine or a doctrinal statement saying that we don't believe in jew worship and he was kind of
advocating for jew worship or uh i don't even know because he didn't really say it clearly but
just basically loving jews was is that the right way to word it been i think he was saying that
the fact that we said we stand against jew worship is in and of itself anti-semitic and so he wanted
to attack our anti-semitic doctrine of don't worship jews right and again i still love jews
like i still want them to be saved but someone that's an obvious reprobate and cross that line
and is blaspheming the name of jesus christ and doing all manner of evil and wickedness like i
can't say that i love that person anymore if they've crossed that reprobate line but i'm curious
you know just that's some background does that kind of help you with the context of
absolutely i live in uh titusville florida i'm in zionist uh hell i mean it's like
i swear to god they worship israel more than they worship jesus christ um it's it's a very
i actually had to leave my my church because uh i approached my pastor and uh i was just like uh
you know have you noticed since the 1950s to now the world's declined and the 501 c3
thing seems to be the thing that changed the world because this country was founded on a
church front lawn right the the a lot of people don't know the shot her won the around the world
in 1775 was on a church front lawn in lexington right i happen to be from massachusetts so live
in florida now but uh and and and there's a big story behind that um where the the church was
involved in the revolution you know and the church used to lead this country um and once it and it
seems it you can look at when they approved the 501c3 designation and the decline of the country
right so i i i merely approached him saying the church needs to lead again and i guarantee you
will increase membership because the young kids are looking for leadership you know and the next
time i went to church all the sudden he was just like i don't know where all this anti-semitism
comes from it's fucking demonic and and satanic and the only thing i brought up to him in our
previous conversation was martin luther's writings right and i'm like how did this guy go from uh
only wanting to convert the jews to all the sudden you know wanting to burn everything that they owned
and expel them you know um and and that was it that was like i was just like how does this guy go
from this point to that point you know and then basically in the next sermon uh he had uh you know
just basically called me a demon and a satanic demon um so i well i mean you know again i i
obviously don't hold to that guy's opinion um i think that you know as long as you're respectfully
talking to your pastor about these things i don't think there's anything wrong with that
um but you know i'm in i want to make a few comments on this i just typed it into google
but 501c3 was established in the wilson gorman tariff act of 1894 now here's the thing i guess
there was an overhaul in 1954 as well but you know i think that some people have a weird opinion
of 501c3 you know one thing that i don't think that very many people realize is that a church
if you form a church in in the united states and it's correctly set up as a church you're
automatically 501c3 whether you file anything with the federal government at all. In fact the
only thing a church can do is they can send what's a request for a verification but the
verification doesn't make you 501c3 it just asks the federal government if they agree with you that
you're 501c3 but according to the 501c3 guidelines as long as you are a church and you're not doing
anything weird you're pretty much an automatic 501c3 and so you know I'm not going to hold
that against a church for being 501c3 or even asking for their verification letter but I think
that anybody could let anything influence them. Obviously the 501c3 could cause somebody to not
preach something that they should. It's also possible that you know just the fear of losing
your bank account, your YouTube channel, your money, having protesters could also be influences
for you to not preach the Bible and I think that's for every pastor to say you know what I'm just
going to preach what the Bible says but I'm going to do my best to manage and navigate the laws of
the land too and so you know I appreciate that the federal government isn't taxing churches the same
way they tax small businesses and and for-profit corporations so it is a it is a benefit but if I
if I end up losing that because the government changes their mind or goes against the first
amendment or something well then you know so be it but to me I'm not against churches for just
having that particular label I think that that maybe some people go a little overboard with their
anti-Israel viewpoint and to say like everything that they're doing must be wrong because they're
pro-Israel I don't think that the 501z3 I think that's a separate issue personally I don't know
what you think about this Ben I don't have a strong opinion you're more of an expert on this
area having actually done the paperwork to start churches and things like that I don't think that
501z3 is an issue at all for me and like I said you're more experienced and we could look it up
but I'd have to off the top of my head there's like there's basically five points that you have
to meet like five criterion you have to meet to be a 501z3 and it's like it's like that you're
there's no personal annuament which personal annuament means that no none of the directors
of the church are receiving just like excess bonus wages based on a special donation of the church
and then like secondly you're not doing criminal activity a third is that you're not like actively
participating in politics which is a loose definition but they've even like quantified it
and said that as long as you're not giving more than 10 of your funds to a political candidate
then you're still within you know the boundary which to me is insane it would be insane if i've
heard a church saying like we're giving 20 percent of our money to donald trump or something like
that that would be insane to me but what's crazy is you could literally give five percent of the
donations of a church to donald trump and still be within the guidelines of five one z3 which is
crazy to me um and then there's again i think there's like two other particular ones but they're
they're kind of nuanced about just like minutiae that doesn't even matter that every church should
be following if you weren't following it like it's like selling illegal things during criminal
activity things like that so like to me i think that every church generally speaking is going to
follow the model of a 501 c3 guideline regardless of if they file paperwork or not and this is what
people don't get these houses these house church movements or these other groups that are meeting
as a church and they say we're not 501 c3 well number one they're not paying federal taxes
and number two the reason why they're not paying federal taxes because they were automatically
exempt as a 501 c3 and therefore they're actually receiving that benefit while preaching against
501 c3 and then if there was a particular church that you know was not doing things correctly
that they could potentially uh get shut down but i mean generally speaking if you form a church
you're going to be a 501 c3 i don't know if you have a different opinion there Daniel
i'll let you give a comment again but something happened in the 1950s i don't remember if it was
uh 53 or 56 world war two obviously we bring in all these jews after world war two i mean
yeah that's that changed well yeah the jews definitely didn't help anything i'm just saying
that the uh there was some if you look at the 1950s all right so let me let me start from here
right i uh let me just kind of revert i grew up in massachusetts okay sure i was never actually
taught the truth about lexington conquered uh the battle that happened in 1775 okay and and i was
never taught the fact that that that battle occurred on a church front lawn and the pastor
happened to be jonas clark and that it was sam adams and i believe it was john hanncock
came to his house because the brits had a arrest warrant on them and they came to him and said hey
you know we don't want to cause you trouble uh but we need shelter and he said i've been preparing my
flock for this for years right so the next day uh they stood on the church front lawn 80 guys
250 british and guys came in and they lost eight guys from the church but they they managed to do
a pretty heavy dent in the prittish and they ran and the guys from the church ran through the woods
over to concord and as the brits were coming over to bridge and concord they killed them all
right and and people don't understand the involvement of the church in the uh revolutionary
war most people don't but the thing is like i was saying is there's something that happened
in the church and i don't know if it was that they allowed the church to be involved
in the 501c3 i don't know if the church always had that ability but something happened in the
50s and if you look at the decline of the united states when the church stopped leading the country
to where we are now it's it's there's a big difference well you know here's the thing i
just i just don't think that it's a political fight that we lost like i think it's a spiritual
fight that we lost i think the churches stopped preaching the gospel they stopped standing on the
king james bible we brought in the modern bible versions we have a major apostasy i mean we have
the southern baptist convention getting so bad they don't even believe genesis is history anymore
they don't believe jesus is god i mean they're just like all kinds of just crazy weird psycho
doctrines are you know infiltrating these churches i don't think it's because of 5133 i would say
that's more of maybe a symptom of government control or the government is just trying to
put its its tentacles more on the church but i don't think that that was a catalyst i don't
think that uh had anything to do with i think it's just people not preaching the gospel not
preaching the bible and uh you know i i appreciate your comments i want to give i want to give Bayou
Jarrett a chance here he's also speaker if you want to speak you can send me a request and we
can try to get you in here i tried to invite a few different people um sometimes it's kind of slow
try to invent uh invite brother jimmy over here if he wants to come on the show um Bayou Jarrett
how's it going hey going good good evening how you doing good yeah i wanted to uh comment on
roman's 1126 go for it um yeah so um what it doesn't say is and so a lot of jews shall be saved
it doesn't say that it says all israel shall be saved right so none of the jews that live outside
of israel if that's your interpretation that it's the nation of israel that in the modern
nation state of israel if that's what it's talking about then none then all the you know muslims and
christians that live in israel it just it's everyone within the border you know so if you
want to be saved you just got to cross the border like right before that happens and you'll be saved
so that's a dumb interpretation well yeah i mean it doesn't even matter either way if you said it
was the the physical nation like the boundaries like you just brought up or even if you just said
the physical jews that have somehow gone through the last two thousand years unscathed by ethnic
mixing you say like the guy in san francisco and la and miami and chicago and new york that hates
jesus and wants nothing to do with him is just going to randomly believe and get saved or something
like i mean again i'm just it's just weird it's just weird and it's is the how's that not racist
it's free it is it's preposterous and i want to say this real quick so you have all israel shall
be saved verse 26 right we spent a large portion of the stream talking about everything that came
before it and the theme of that first half is really basically like hey they israel could still
be saved if they believe right they could be graphed in again the gentiles were graphed in
because they believed how does that connect though to verse 26 right because verse 26 it seems kind
of random like after we talked about all that all of a sudden it says all israel shall be saved and
i came up with how they connect how these two concepts connect i personally think that the
reason he brings up that one day israel will consist only of saved people is because of the
fact that when the millennium starts it will consist of regenerated gentiles and physical
israelites so if he's making the point that hey physical israel can still get saved if they choose
to believe on christ what actually helps to substantiate his point is to say and in fact
one day all of israel is actually going to be saved why because of regenerated jews and gentiles
just go back to something that daniel brought up swords of plowshares also says that uh their
history teacher actually taught them about that revolutionary act that happened i don't even know
what that is no that was it's a good point but what is that uh pastor shelly the one that the
previous guy was talking yeah you're talking about how the shot heard around the world i see somehow
the churches are involved obviously everyone's a christian everyone's i mean there's an important
documentary we're trying to make called the one nation under god it's an important documentary
because it's going to explain how our entire nation was christian i mean there's a christian
church on every street corner virtually in the south and in america because we were a christian
nation so it'd be hard to say that there weren't christians in the fight for for freedom in our
country so was america great um it's better it's better than every other nation but that was a
great point by you jared do you have any more comments here we'll go back to you good point on
uh roman's chapter 11 yeah and the point of that obviously is just that if you're if you're
interpreting israel as the nation then that's it's pretty uh it's pretty strange interpretation but i
would like to just kind of offer my own interpretation of what i i think he's talking about and i i don't
even necessarily need to bring in like in times prophecy and stuff you know so in verse um let's
see where is it he talks about the election right in verse five even so at this present time also
there is a remnant according to the election of grace um he talks about hath god cast away his
people so i think these these terms are talking about the same uh the same thing his people um
talks about his people in verse one his people in verse two um and then it talks about the election
of grace in verse five um and then it talks about the election in verse seven israel hath not obtained
that which he seeketh for but the election hath obtained it and then he talks about the olive tree
right so i think god's people the elect the election um the olive tree this is all the same
group and that he's cut off from the olive tree from the election from his people certain branches
and grafted in other branches so you have this tree and everyone that's on the tree is the elect
is his people are the saved it is the tree is true israel which i would say is fulfilled by the
church today so anyone who's a jew today believes in christ there they're in the body of christ
i i don't think you guys believe in the universal church but that's basically how i would see it
now is just all every believer that's in the universal body of christ would be this tree
so god has pruned out the unbelieving branches and grafted in the believing branches this is
true israel and true israel will be saved so i wouldn't even necessarily have to like get into
well is it pre-trib or post-trib is it pre-mail ah-mail you see what i'm saying you're basically
saying well all israel shall be saved because all israel is just the people who believe so
therefore they're going to be the ones who are safe so kind of more of a simplistic approach to
it do i have that right can you hear me yeah we can hear you did you hear ben's comment i think
he might have i don't know the ability to i can't hear you guys maybe i need to drop down and come
back up yeah spaces does that from time to time we'll cycle you through again so you did i give
it accurate characterization you think pastor of his interpretation of the verse there um i was
interested to see what he would say not what i would say is there something wrong with me or
no i i thought there was a fair no i thought that was a fair uh question is that what you meant
can you hear anything yes i hear you can hear us can you hear us still why does elon's got to fix
this x-space system yeah it's so good we might need to just drop him and then you have to drop
him and have him come back potentially i wonder if i can kick him out or something or uninvite him
as a speaker or something it's too glitchy we need to have you fix it aren't you a program
guy yeah it shouldn't it shouldn't program guy you know that shows my intelligence well i could fix
it but to be honest if we let our production lead fix it then it would really get fixed he's a more
talented program guy then i'll just yeah i'll just i'll just be humble enough to say that he's better
than i am in that area so that's okay people he's better than me in a lot of areas that's for sure
yeah that's that's definitely true no i you know while while he was bringing this up about the
simplicity i did want to comment on something else too he kind of brought up about the universal
church so at least remind me because i want i want to make a comment well we believe in a local
church yeah i just want to make a comment on that but i want him to be in the in the conversation
sure when i make i'll try if i don't it means i forgot yeah i'm here can you hear me yeah can
you hear us yeah i can okay sorry about i don't know where i where you guys lost so basically
it seemed like what you were saying is all israel shall be saved just means those who believe
are israel therefore they're going to be saved and it's more of a simplistic approach to the
passage is that right like simpler than our interpretation is that is that an accurate
characterization well i think we there's definitely a lot of overlap i just and maybe there's some
view towards end times things that are taking place but i just view the olive tree is synonymous
with the election according to grace synonymous with true israel which the church is the fulfillment
of israel and god has pruned out all the unbelieving branches and grafted in the believing branches and
so this olive tree is they're all true israel they're all believers believers they're all the
election according to grace and that whole tree will be saved i understand i'm not i don't even
take issue necessarily with what you're saying at all i think where i get hung up though and why i
feel like i have to make it something that has to do with end times is verse 25 if verse 25 wasn't
there then i'd probably hold to a position that's closer to yours but in verse 25 it says for i
would not brethren that you should be ignorant of this mystery lest you should be wise in your own
conceits that blindness in part is happened to israel so present tense when the apostle paul
is saying this there is blindness in part that has happened to israel until the fullness of the
gentiles be come in so it seems like according to that passage the blindness has a termination point
in which they will no longer be blind and that'll be when the fullness of the gentiles happens and
i think that scripture is clear when i compare luke 21 and revelation 11 that the fullness of
the gentiles does happen at the end of daniel's 70th week from an eschatological perspective but
i definitely see where you're coming from i don't even have an issue with it at all
i'm just saying the reason why i kind of hold closer to an end times view on this
is because of verse 25 yeah i guess i would say it kind of reminds me of you had a different
interpretation of roman's 11 at some point it was a and i felt like it just was not answering
preterist view yeah but i just feel like it's just like ignoring what the text is saying because
because the context of roman's chapter 11 is the physical nation of israel that's what we're
addressing so it makes sense to keep that as the focus and keep that as the attention for
throughout the entire chapter and again the in part the blindness in part i like what you said
about 25 is of course when we talk about the difference between there's some physical jews
like paul that are saved and then there's some physical jews like kaiaphas who are unsaved so
we have this physical jew not a spiritual jew but at some point it's going to be a one for one again
that's what i already tried to explain but in verse 26 you will have a moment when all of the
physical nation of israel is saved and that hasn't happened and it's not happening and israel
is partially blind and i want to i want to say it is in the sense that like it's not like it's
a new thing it's always been a mixed multitude because in roman's chapter 9 they're not all
israel which are of israel um the parth is being brought up by that pastor uh or the the reverend
or brother tom he brought up how there is a remnant and specifically he's bringing up alias how well
at that point in time there was only a small portion of people that were israel of that greater
person you know partition of israel and so you know it makes sense to me our interpretation i think
that oversimplifying it to just say it's just say people are saved becomes a meaningless platitude
that doesn't really answer what the text is saying and it's not very satisfactory to the people that
have a contrary view when we talk about the difference between a universal church and like
that some like the catholics or catholic lights will will bring up i believe the word church goes
beyond just saying save people i believe it's save people congregated together so yeah i deny
the universal church because i don't think that we're physically congregated together until we
go up into heaven you could then argue that we were a universal church in that sense at the rapture
but right now say people are scattered throughout so that's why we have the local churches where
it's just a congregation of believers together and that's the church i don't think the universal
church is a is it's kind of a contradictory term in my mind obviously when we talk about just all
the saved and we call them the church if someone means that loosely then i agree but i just don't
think that we're all congregated together what do you think about the universal church definition
ben i would echo your sentiments i don't have anything new to add to that is there something
that i'm missing in this universal church viewpoint and back to our game um yeah i think i think there
are some verses um that are difficult to interpret as a local congregation um just one that comes
off the top of my head is i think it's matthew 16 where jesus says uh you are peter and upon
this rock i will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it so i mean it
depends on when you think the church began i know some people would say you know jesus's congregation
is is the the beginning of the new testament church or an axe to the church begins but i think to
interpret it as jesus is talking he's he's only talking about his disciples his close companions
is kind of uh missing the point of what's taking place in that passage as he's you know he's giving
the keys and authority uh to his disciples and there's a lot going on there and there are some
other verses um i would have to to do a search that's the only one that really comes to mind
off the top of my head but with with israel so so you do take an interpretation that all israel
shall be saved is talk is talking about the modern state of israel no no no no no i think
that it's talking about the millennial millennium during the millennium israel will consist of only
save people because of course its inhabitants will be regenerated people who take over that land those
who believed on christ the christ-hating jews are going to be slain by the lord jesus christ in my
opinion luke 1927 but those mine enemies which would not that i should reign over them bring hither
and slay them before me so no i don't believe that christ-hating jews are going to automatically
just believe and get saved somehow right and you know i appreciate that we have somebody that you
know has different views because i invited brother tom uh to come on the show and talk about his
sermon or talk about his viewpoint and explain it to us so that it's not like a straw man because
you know seems like a good guy loves the gospel and uh i would love to have them come on because
because to me i think if we were able to put some pushback i i just don't see how they're going to
have a reasonable explanation and you know the goal will be to maybe influence over a change of
mind i think that they're just afraid of believing like us because we have all these awful labels of
being anti-semitic and blah blah blah but you know we're not anti-semitic so it doesn't matter
and generally speaking like if if you're anti-semitic by the world's definition that's
just believing the bible so it's it's not even a fair label in in many cases but i would love i
mean i would love for a zionist to debate us on this show i'd love for someone that disagrees with
me to say like hey all the jews are going to get saved like hey come on the show we'll talk about
it hey invite your your pastor you got a pastor that wants to uh you know challenge us on that
particular viewpoint i'm ready i'll give them all the you know everything they could want everything
they could need they can bring all their commentary they can bring anything they want let's have a
conversation i mean should we be afraid of zionism ben no i think that the truth doesn't fear
investigation and we're not afraid of having our worldview challenged and even with this gentleman
i'm sorry i forgot your name but the gentleman who chimed in tonight i believe he also chimed in the
other night when we did spaces and had a different perspective i believe it was on the king james
only issue and i welcome that and i think this guy is very mature and i appreciate him coming
on and being able to you know give us a different view on some things i appreciate that but no just
echo what you're saying you wouldn't have any issue discussing zionism and i want to underscore
pastor shelly there are good people who believe in the zionist doctrine they're wrong on this but
they're still brothers in christ and including a friend of our church who disagrees with us on this
i'm hoping that something didn't go wrong but he's still a good guy um i was trying to bring in
another speaker here can you guys still uh hear us okay brother uh jimmy can you hear us okay i
think he has his hand up so can we uh does he want to be i can hear you guys okay good something
was weird on one of my other screens i just want to make sure if you're in there brother jimmy go
ahead unmute let's talk to brother jimmy get in there i gave him the best intro i can well we gave
him the opportunity bro j stew unmute yourself let's hear what you have to say live on the
baptist bias the floor is yours all right maybe he's maybe his my i just went to of course i can
hear you can hear me yep yeah we can hear you i'm unmuted i don't know i'm so sorry we can hear you
we can hear you can you hear me yeah we can hear you oh that's so weird i can't hear you in here
okay i think i hear you all right uh so looking at uh a couple of scriptures just as he was talking
um i was thinking about um i was thinking about a couple different scriptures here first off in
romans chapter 9 32 um because they sought it not by faith and then if you just kind of look back
at uh romans 3 and even the righteousness of god which is by faith of jesus christ and i bring
these scriptures up because when i would talk to people about this topic i would say to them so
when did faith just get thrown out the window and someone can just see jesus and then all of a
sudden they're saved i'm like that was never the case in the old testament you know you had people
that lived in the land but they weren't necessarily saved and it's kind of the same type of idea that
just because someone is of i'm kind of putting a couple things together here just because someone
is of a particular lineage or they have a particular stamp in their passport and then they look up and
then okay they magically get saved well what about the guy that lives five feet across the border
when he looks up does he see jesus does he get instantly saved and it's like well no because
their dna or whatever but we've established that the dna aspect has you know nothing to do with it
so they kind of forget that righteousness comes by faith and any jew that gets saved amen that's
great but it's going to have to come by faith and not by seeing jesus in the clouds and then somehow
that means oh great they'll all be saved and to then say well that means all of them will get saved
and then you know some of the hard nosers literally say yes all of them will get saved
and you're like okay come on now it's just getting a little bit uh crazy with that kind of stuff so
uh no i think they they really kind of forget other aspects of christianity because they have
to hold to this jew worshipping view where you're like now all of a sudden here's a guy who clearly
believes that salvation is by faith but now all of a sudden salvation isn't by faith because jews
are going to look up and see them so it's it's kind of frustrating when when that kind of uh
situation happens and well no they're called special people and it's like what special like
can we need to talk in more than 140 characters at a time here we got to look into this a little bit
deeper and let's lay out a solid doctrine here so yeah anyway that's i just wanted to throw my
that's a good point it's just like a muslim looks up and sees jesus doesn't get saved but a jew
looks up and he magically gets saved what what about these apostate christians do they even
have a chance you know that would be another question i'd have was that for jimmy or for
anybody anybody i agree with that you know what's amazing is that they'll take passages like ezekiel
36 26 a new heart also will i give you and a new spirit will i put within you and i will take away
the stony heart out of your flesh and i will give you an heart of flesh and they basically will say
well there's roman's 11 26 right there and to me you're literally removing free will out of
the equation first of all and second of all you're turning such a beautiful foreshadowing of the new
testament and twisting it into something that it is not of course yeah i do think that israel will
get a new heart i believe that they will get a new heart if they believe on the lord jesus christ
just like all of us did when we believed on christ we got a new heart we we were and and you know
what i also believe that god put in us the ability to keep the law through the spirit if we walk in
the spirit if we threw our free will walk of the spirit so here we have magnificent passages in the
old testament that foreshadow the new testament and they take them and they make them about
this roman's 1126 conversion well you know think think about this if this brother tom's view is
right and and this is you know their moment where they see and they get saved just think about all
the unlucky jews who died just like right before he came back right i mean like because if you had
just lived a little bit longer and you'd seen christ coming in the clouds you would have gotten
saved but you know you just you're one of those unlucky jews who just died at 90 years old or
something i mean if we're going all the way back to 1948 i mean people that were teenagers in 1948
how old are they now i mean we're talking about what let's say they're 20 plus 52 years that's
72 plus another 24 that was like 96 years old or something like that i mean how many people that
were even just teenagers in 1948 are still going to be making still going to be kicking it i mean
this is insane right well you have to remember though pastor shelly he brought them in an
unbelief ah and then they stayed in unbelief and they died what the hell i mean yeah unfortunately
yeah and again it's not like to laugh like i'm glad people are dying going to hell i just know
it's the false doctrine i'm laughing at not people dying right it's just silly to think like why did
all of these i mean because again we're we're not even contrasting gentiles and jews we're
contrasting jews and jews if you're going to say these people are special why were all the
ones that have died in the last 50 60 years or 80 years in the nation state of israel that didn't
get to see jesus physically why didn't they get that opportunity why didn't they get saved why
did jesus come into his own and his own received him not why is it that jesus is calling them
children of the devil and saying that they cannot believe why is it that the apostle paul saying
you've judged yourselves unworthy of everlasting life why did he say hey from henceforth we're
we're not going to go into the gen the jews because they won't hear it we're going to go
under the gentiles like why did paul say all these things why is he writing letters to the romans and
to the corinthians and the glacians and the ephesians and the philippians and the colossians and
just to timothy and to titus and to vilemon and then it's like okay oh he did write a passage to
hebers sure uh you know if you want to say that paul wrote hebers which i think is a reasonable
belief but it's just like he spent so much time on gentiles like why are we just so obsessed so
concerned with unbelieving jews why don't we care about unbelieving palestinians why don't we believe
care about unbelieving people in india unbelieving people in australia unbelieving people in america
like this this obsession with israel is racist it doesn't make sense it's not in the bible
it's not what it teaches whatsoever and look i love brother tom and i would be his friend but
he's wrong on this doctrine of thinking that we should worship jews he's wrong i'm thinking that
a bunch of reprobates are going to get saved in the end times and look i'm not saying there won't
be some ethnic quote what we called modern state jews today getting saved i hope there are some
i hope that a few of them turn and believe and look i even know people that are ethnically
jewish today that have believed on jesus christ and they got saved and praise god for them
but i just think that this unconditional support of israel being a zionist
being afraid of these labels anti-semitic when it's not really a true accusation is leading
people in the false doctrine and not preparing them for the real end times i think it's important
that people really prepare themselves for that um that's this mic drop moment right here hey i
think we have oh we got another if i had a mic i would drop it on the desk i want to get another
guest in here common sense 23 23 um if you're able to speak go ahead and give us a shout out
give us your thoughts i think he's able to speak he just needs to unmute yeah yeah if he well he
might not be ready but as soon as you're ready common sense just interject if there's anybody
else that want to join us yeah who doesn't need common sense um we need zionists we need some
fundamental baptist brother and get some common sense on these issues here so and people say oh
you're picking on the guy first of all he invoked our church's name and second we've said multiple
times we believe this is a brother in christ who's right on the gospel and that we love him all right
so stop being so oversensitive but can't your brother be wrong of course and you know what i
think for a lot of them they're just emotionally attached to this position that they were taught
probably from the generations preceding them well look it doesn't make them a bad person necessarily
it's just from their perspective we're wrong have the conversation come on the show explain explain
us we can have a respectful explain what verse we got wrong and give us the right interpretation
we had a nice dinner with someone am i really supposed to believe in first corinthians 15 is
saying that paul was born prematurely and all these dudes are gonna say i mean like that's
but you can get along here's the thing you can get along with folks who disagree on this issue
we had a nice dinner with an individual who does i mean it happens it's fine i have friends that
are pre-trib and pro-zine pre-trib pro it's like this idea that the new ifb is just my way or we
declare you unsaved heretic false prophet devil is a work of fiction that's not our position common
sense how's it going good pastor shelley how you doing pleasure to speak with you
ben's pleasure to speak with you as well thanks for having me on are we going to finally have
common sense in your 2323 or is that what the name means or what well no common sense 23 was
taken so i just added another 23 to it okay but hope maybe by then you know a couple centuries
hopefully by then okay um great uh great space and uh rumble i really appreciate your guys's uh
channel glad i found you i found you on a space with a couple nights ago i think was it election
night when shank uger and fuentes and everything came on i think you're in that space and i found
you here so i just wanted to touch base on the subject tonight and bounce a couple things off
maybe a different topic uh first off really like that you have the false doctrines that you know
your church doesn't believe in i think be really helpful if every church do that that way you could
figure it out a lot quicker when you're trying to find the church so um and love the way you you
phrase it i mean you didn't you know wasn't anything you jew worship i mean that's pretty
like you guys have been saying all night what's there for a christian to argue against that i
don't understand uh this whole zionism that's infiltrated the church in the last you know
hundred years and like you say it's not that they're bad people it's not that they're
heretics or anything like that it's what we've been taught from the pulpit from many churches
you know that are bible teaching verse by verse churches and that have just been being taught to
us since since i can remember so yeah luckily luckily i came across and and it's a big thing
because even you know i watched uh i think your affiliate you had your did the documentary you're
affiliated with who did the marching to zion documentary yeah the guy who sent me out and
ordained me pastor steven anderson he's the he's the main uh contributor to that film right and
that's a great movie i mean that that's a powerful movie that just really speaks in something first
time i spoke to my mom who's you know older she's a boomer she started crying thinking that i was
going to hell and then she watched the well because i was not because i was saying you know
the jews and the god's chosen people she started like tearing up and everything is like i can't
believe you're saying that and then she watched it and now she's the one in her morning bible
studies on sunday with my dad raising questions and causing havoc and you know making other people
think and brought it up to the pastor in their church in tennessee and the pastor is saying yeah
our son says a lot of the same ideas too so the word's definitely getting out and you're not
anti-semitic and i think it's crazy for christians to accuse other christians of anti-semitism over
this because this is relatively a new doctrine and if you read any of the church fathers then
they were all very anti-semitic until you know the late 1800s so yeah that's definitely true
but yeah just wanted to encourage you that movie's really powerful boomers if there's anyone listening
show it to your parents your family i mean pretty much covers everything and it's biblically sound
there's not much you can say once you finish that so um thanks thanks for that thanks for comments
yeah thanks for being a listener i have a couple and then on uh yeah as you're saying i mean if
jews are saved just by being jews then shouldn't that pastor jim you know that's his name right
pastor tom i think tom sorry then i mean instead of you know shouldn't he be telling we should just
go out and marry jewish women and have jewish children and then we know for sure that they're
saved i mean this this way are you stupid that's hilarious oh are you stupid i'm sorry are you
stupid who's saying that i'm saying it are you stupid no i'm saying it as a joke it was a joke
i mean if you follow their logic through that if you're jewish you're automatically saved for your
genealogy and they trace their genealogy through the mother whose logic it was we earlier in the
space we were bringing up a pastor who thinks that all jews are going to get saved regardless
of if they believe in jesus or not so the comms are so the commentator is just making a joke
he's just saying he's saying look if everybody just believe that we it's a great point i totally
that's why i thought it was funny that's why i laughed because it's just like why wouldn't
we just marry jews and and ensure your children are going to go to heaven um i guess you have
the question is do you still allow them to get the nose job or not i think that's the big
destroy all sacredness yeah you destroy all sacredness so where where is the sacredness
of humanity when you categorize uh something like the jews right and then that's like a point of
attack where's the sacredness of humanity which is an image of god question sir sincerely i don't
understand what's going on what's the question are you disagreeing with our position here if so
you're more than welcome to offer a counterpoint absolutely so in christ there's no slave nor free
no male nor female right sure galatians three to attack or mount a attack on a category is to claim
a superiority right i don't know if i'm understanding your questions you just could you just get to your
your question yeah that was my question say say it again he's okay i think i understand he's saying
by by attacking jews categorizing jews or saviour or slave or free or male or female or any fucking
thing right are you not anti-christ well i don't i don't think i'm against any person as an
individual okay based on their race so what was so what was the what was the joke i want to laugh
go ahead say it again the joke was if you want people to if you want to ensure that your children
are going to go to heaven you would marry someone that's jewish because by marrying someone who's
jewish they're automatically going to heaven yeah it's so funny awesome sorry for interrupting
yeah i don't think i don't think uh it made any sense i'm gonna remove you as speaker but
um we'll go back to common sense i mean i don't mind somebody disagreeing but the thing is like
you can't just make emotional appeals oh you're categorizing them as jews therefore you're anti
christ we never said that we were superior to jews based on any physical characteristics
and that's what galatians 3 is trying to get you to understand is that your physical characteristics
don't matter when you're in christ but here's what does matter your ideology and my ideology
is superior than the ideology of somebody who worships satan well i think that he's he kind
of made this conflation of like just recognizing physical differences makes you an anti christ or
something if i say someone's black or white or if i say someone's a slave or if someone's of a
different religion obviously we're talking about categorizations i already said earlier in the
stream which i don't think this guy was in there but i said earlier in the stream i don't even
believe in these ethnic jews like i don't i think we're all gentiles at this point it's been mixed
so much but even if you just use that line of thinking and claim that there was these ethnic
jews uh it would make sense to marry them i i thought the common sense was making good points
sorry you got interrupted there that was actually really funny let's go back to common sense before
we had somebody uh get all offended you can uh unmute he has his hand up all right sorry i was
i'm doing some some errands and didn't want to have a bunch of background noise on your space
no you're good um no anyway yeah didn't understand that but i mean that's often what you see amongst
our brothers and sisters in the church nowadays is that christians can be bashed you know jesus can
be put in artwork in the worst things but then if christians say anything then it's like oh you're
supposed to love and be kind and everything and yeah we are called to be kind and love
but that doesn't mean that we should allow our faith and our brothers and sisters in christ
and our lord and savior to be the mock mockery of the world and just sit there and take it so
i don't agree with that previous speaker yeah so well you were making a really funny point so
i was just making a joke so it was funny it was hilarious no and it's just like logical to me but
can i ask you a quick question on something else uh yeah go on the floor can can i do a different
topic yep or or do we do we have to stick to this no go ahead ask your question okay uh i i
listened to a lot of i don't know if you know he is jay dyer have you heard of him yes i know who
that is okay and i mean i think he makes a lot of good points i think he's very interesting i think
he does a good defense of the faith from his point of view uh i have a couple questions though
because i do believe in sola scriptura uh i believe you would as well correct yeah i agree okay okay
so when that point is raised often in his debates and everything he says well the first century
church or the first you know for the first few centuries the canon wasn't even finalized so how
well were they basing themselves on they would be basing themselves on he's coming from an orthodox
perspective i'm assuming you know so you would see would say that then the church had oral
traditions and all this so i think there's i'm sure a lot of orthodox that are saved but some
of their traditions seem a little odd to me how would you argue that for the first few centuries
i mean they still had the torah obviously so then or the the old testament right yes okay and then
they would have still had whatever letters paul had written he was writing them to the churches
so they would have been handing them around is that how you would argue the point or how would
you go about sure arguing sola scriptura for the first couple centuries well to me this is a funny
argument because they say well it wasn't the canon wasn't finalized until 300 ad when they had the
ecumenical council they identified it but here's the thing in order to even identify it don't you
have to have it and here's the thing how did they identify it it wasn't no one even describes this
as a supernatural event obviously they already knew what the bible was and they already had the
bible that's how they could even make that determination is because they already had
received it and agreed to it and and recognized it so the scripture has always been available i
mean you have an axe the bible makes it clear that the law of moses was read in every city
even in the time of axe so the old testament's already been established well before even the
time of christ and you know the bible of course there's always going to be discrepancies on the
bible like what's the bible what's not the bible you see even in the epistles the apostle paul
talking about people corrupting the word of god you had septuagint translations that predate the
time of christ there's always been a controversy even over do we go with the greek septuagint or
do we go with the masoretic hebrew for the old testament you're going to have some discrepancies
of course people believing and adhering to the apocrypha prior to this ecumenical council
so the question of what's the bible or not is just really just a every generation has that struggle
in that battle and they have to determine for themselves it is just a fact of history that
at one point a large group of catholics got together and identified what they believed
to be the bible but they still kind of include the apocrypha and it's kind of like later in the
protestant reformation when a lot of these people are saying like we don't want to include this we
don't agree with this and even post the king james bible being translated when they just started
leaving it out altogether but even the translators of the king james bible made it abundantly clear
in their documentation that the apocrypha was not to be used for doctrine it was only for historical
value and so you know i i think that the word of god is validated by itself my sheep will hear my
voice they will not follow a stranger so you know it it's silly to say well at this one point when
they identified it that's when the bible came to be it's just rather a large group identifying it
i mean what if what if we just said like the the united states of america got up and said
and you know i'm a baptist of course but they just said that the baptist church is the best church
well that wouldn't be like the time that the baptist church started that's just the government
as a whole recognizing like this is the best church so like if the whole government came
together and said like we believe the king james bible is the word of god preserved and accurate
it's the best translation we all need is the king james bible that doesn't mean that people
didn't recognize the king james bible as the is the word of god in the times past i mean even
have ronald reagan saying as pious judges try to get it right it will not dawn on them that it has
already been gotten right so you have ronald reagan identifying that the word of god is already
gotten right in the king james bible it doesn't matter if a large group later identify that too
and you have people prior to the ecumenical council saying this is the word of god we should
reply upon these particular history of manuscripts and appealing to these verses as authoritative
scripture so i think the the argument that says though the bible didn't come into existence until
the catholics made it is just like the weirdest argument it has no bearing on reality or fact
whatsoever it's just it's just kind of a strawman argument to try and be catholic but it's a bad
argument to be catholic do you have another addition here ben all i would add i appreciate
your historical perspective and i appreciate the point you made about the bible validating itself
i would just add that i personally believe that the believer can authenticate scripture for
themselves meaning that every believer has the holy spirit inside them and has the ability to
validate for themselves whether what they are reading is god's word or not you know the bible
says he will guide us into all truth and so i think believers throughout all ages were able
to identify what is or is not inspired by god for themselves through the power of the holy spirit
pastor shelly what do you think about that great points does that help you a little bit common
sense or you have a follow-up on that no that does help me a lot but i have a quick drive here and
my car is like making noise so i didn't want to interrupt you want me to come in and click
back in and like i know i'm good you want me to just click back on and like just yeah just throw
your hand up just throw your hand up and we'll get some final comments from you but uh i'll go
back to value jarrett did you want to have a comment on the bible here yeah i had a comment on
on sola scriptura so i didn't hear jay dyer's comments but so sola scriptura says in a briefly
that scripture is the only infallible rule of faith and doctrine for the church so whether
you know which books of the bible were available to to whom at what time is it's a separate issue
it doesn't really have any bearing on the doctrine of sola scriptura whether it's true or not because
sola scriptura sola scriptura does not mean you have to have a complete canon in order to
rightly understand scripture so you know if you're talking about the the very earliest parts of the
church when the new testament was being inscripturated you know maybe the church at
Corinth had a few letters plus the old testament you know maybe an incomplete old testament they
can still apply the principle of sola scriptura in their in their faith and they can use those
scriptures that they have to to check any doctrine that that anybody traveling through might be
trying to teach them you know like the Bereans did so that's not really an argument against
sola scriptura and I would also say that if you read the early church fathers like the anti-Nicene
fathers, Ignatius, Martyr, Mathetase, some of the other like earliest writings you'll find that they
do appeal to scripture to to uh, validify their arguments and their points and they're not appealing
to tradition because at that point they you know they are the quote-unquote tradition is the church
fathers you know there's not a lot before them you know besides the apostles themselves so they're
constantly quoting scripture to to make their points so I think to say that if you look at
the early church fathers they're not using sola scriptura well maybe not in the way that we kind
of view it and define it now they hadn't really thought that through maybe as in depth as how we
have at this point but I think you can definitely see that they are practicing this idea that
scripture is you know you can't go against what scripture says I think those are good points I
would just the only thing I'd push back on is the idea that if you have a doctrine that says we can
only use the scripture for as our authority the logical conclusion that follows is then what is
scripture so I think that it's kind of tightly coupled in the sense that I think some people
would argue that we can't identify what scripture or not everybody kind of has a different opinion
and it wasn't until this ecumenical council that it somehow got locked in but then people have
changed it there's been new discoveries so like some people try to make this argument of like we
can't determine what scripture is and that somehow that would then invalidate the idea or concept of
solo scriptura and I think that you know for some Catholics and I don't want to speak for all
Catholics but from from their perspective they kind of elevate tradition above scripture and that
they would maybe argue that well we've already determined all the right doctrines and all the
right things to believe and so you just need to follow our quote traditions and if you were to
find something contradictory in the in some bible or some passage or the apocrypha well you're just
not interpreting it right or you're not learning it enough and you would if if you kind of followed
our tradition then you can make sure you're locked in and so it just kind of becomes a giant
cult at that point where essentially they kind of take away the power of scripture to say that they
could do anything wrong so i i think that that's uh there i want to let common sense before we get
too far away from this i want to let common sense give some final thoughts go ahead at least i saw
his hand up there i think his hand just permanently up no sorry sorry no uh no thank you for those
points yeah i think that that helps make some sense of it i mean it's basic i just sometimes
don't know how to work things so i appreciate it and jay dyer obviously knows how to debate so
is he isn't he a catholic no he's a eastern orthodox oh he's eastern orthodox okay i didn't
i didn't know for sure yeah no he goes after he he debates catholics protestants you know islam so
i mean i i think i don't know if you agree or not i think his view on the trinity is correct i think
he's pretty you know he's uh argues against uh dispensationalism so i think he's right on a lot
obviously by my comment of saying he's a catholic i don't know what his doctrinal positions are on
virtually anything i do know who he is um uh of course i'd be willing to you know discuss or
debate any topics with him if if that's what he wanted but um i think that a lot of those people
shy away from us because you know i think that uh i think some people are nervous to have a
conversation with us because they kind of in the back of their mind feel unprepared or don't they
kind of know that we are confident in our talking points so maybe they're they're nervous because
they think that they're maybe right but they may not present well so maybe they're just afraid to
have the conversation when the fact is it's just that they're wrong that they need to have those
conversations but no i appreciate your comments i'm sure he'd be open to you know having a
conversation he hosts spaces where he'll let anyone even come up and talk so i mean he's
he's pretty easy to to get to but a quick uh second question because i i grown up you know
evangelical you know not charismatic or anything just calvary chapel uh you know so um i mean i
think pretty much i would agree with almost you know your your theological views on everything
you know maybe some some things but i've never heard he i've heard on some of the debates that
protestants believe that jesus at the cross was damned i've never heard that i heard that he went
down and preached the gospel so conquered that okay do we i mean do you believe that jesus was
damned on the cross or is that a doctrine that well i want i want to make sure i understand what
your question is because i've never used that terminology i've never said that jesus was
damned on the cross but i do believe you know the bible does say in second Corinthians i believe
chapter number five that he became sin for us who knew no sin it's 521 so that that verse indicates
like he had to become sin he's kind of pictured and figurative of like the serpent on the stake
or the serpent on the stick is kind of a picture of christ and him becoming sin for us and i do
believe that the bible is clear in acts chapter 2 verse 31 that he went down into hell i think a
lot of people then maybe differ opinion on like what happened in hell but i believe that he most
likely suffered in hell because you kind of have in acts chapter number two a few verses preceding
that he was not loosed from the pains of hell until the resurrection and so to me it seems
logical and reasonable to believe that he could have suffered in hell and that's what the that's
what the bible means when it says that and you know the idea that he was preaching in hell to me
is number one weird because i don't think anybody in hell can get saved i think that they're already
eternally damned number two i don't think anybody is really in a capacity to even necessarily receive
information i think it's a place of great torment there's weeping and gnashing your teeth there's
suffering there's it's out it's like darkness like i don't think it's really an environment where even
preaching could really work very well anyways but thirdly i know but i i'd heard teaching that i
mean not preach that he wasn't in hell that he was preaching to the old testament saints in paradise
like in a compartment next to you yeah that's probably first peter three a lot of people get
confused about first peter three when it talks about uh by which he also preached out of the
spirits in prison when once the long suffering of noah when once the long suffering of god waited
to the days of noah while the ark was a preparing wherein few that is eight souls were saved by
water i would say that first peter chapter three the language is very difficult no matter what
interpretation you hold to but i have a whole sermons on first peter chapter three i believe
the spirits in prison is just to be very quick is just reference to people that are unsaved on the
earth so i think that um and you can kind of look at chapter four and it also kind of brings up the
idea of people that are dead and how jesus is preaching the gospel to them and we also can look
at like other passages that are parallel passages where um we're taken captive by the will of the
devil the bible also talks about um how that we were all children of disobedience at one time
and so i think the bible is just making this illusion or this figurative language to describe
the idea of everybody that's unsaved is like in a prison and when they get saved they come out of
that prison and you could think about like the truth shall make you free yeah and they're in
bondage to say yeah there is servant to sin they're in they're in a kind of a prison in a sense
and so like he's he came down to earth to preach to the spirits that are in prison and he preached
the gospel to them um i don't believe that first peter chapter three is in view of him going into
hell and preaching to the unsaved or even going no uh no i don't i don't believe i don't believe
that or i don't think that's that's not what i was trying to say so no but sorry if i misrepresented
your position no no no there's a few different like flavors of this i just never under i never
heard it's again in these debates with protestants he says protestants believe that jesus when he
died on the cross was damned i mean was i believe he paid for i know he paid for our sins but if
he and then and then the argument that they state is well if he was damned then that would
sever him from his godship and or you know it is being god and he couldn't separate that's
impossible so how could he be damned well to me that's kind of a weird argument because i'm like
how how can god be born of a virgin how can how can god learn how can god grow how can god die
on a cross like i think every part of the the hypostated hypostatic union of christ the mystery
i mean great is the mystery of godliness god was manifest in the flesh like the bible literally
says that there's a mystery tied to the idea of like god being coming flesh in the sense that
that was something that they didn't understand in times past how that how that was going to work
and even even now like there's some parts to wrap your mind around it still to this day i mean i
think that there's no like you have two statements that are made in the bible one that jesus is god
that's you can't deny that and then secondly that jesus died so like okay how do you reconcile all
that i don't know i mean right you know in some in some sense i don't think that you can really
make all these clean distinctions between those and say like well because i've heard some people say
like well the the the human part died and the god part didn't or something but i believe in the
hypostatic union which for the most part i feel like i agree with when i read about it is is the
concept that you can't really make these distinctions while these distinctions exist that he's one he's
one person completely 100 god and 100 man and so you couldn't chop off the quote god part from the
human part like it's just you know and you have some passages that literally just kind of if you
read the text it says like god died in the sense that first john 3 16 yeah first john 3 16 that god
laid down his life for us can you quote that i might have to look that up to get the exact i
used to have that he laid down his life for us and it says something about god first john chapter
3 and verse 16 hereby hereby perceive with the love of god because he laid down his life for us
and we have to lay down our lives for the brethren i could see someone like again devil's advocate
saying like well the he is that um is jesus and it's just in reference to god the father loving
us because he sent his son like if you wanted to try and wiggle out of that i think you could
but i think the text is clearly referring to jesus consistently in both of those uses so but again
whether or not you use this verse jesus is god and jesus died and jesus laid down his life and he
was risen again from the dead by the god by god the father and so you know i don't think he was
damned because it wasn't eternal but i do think that he did take all of the sin the father couldn't
look upon him turned away from him send him to hell and rose him again from the dead i do believe
that i think but then then what would you do with the verse that jesus says no one takes the life
from me i lay it down and i pick it raise it back up like so that's an interesting verse and um i i've
heard an interpretation which i think is pretty interesting about that and it's it's basically
like the word take is not in the sense of acquiring but it's more in the sense of like that's what
happened so in the sense that like if someone offers something to you and you take it it doesn't
necessarily mean that you purchased it or did anything so it's like if god the father
raises jesus back from the dead and he goes into his body that's him taking his life back but it's
not necessarily he did it he's he's relying upon the father to give him that back i think you're
talking about john maybe it's actually matthew i want to i know what verse you're talking about
and i want to see i think it's a beautiful verse and i think it speaks to the power of christ i mean
i again the trinity i mean is hard to wrap our mind around so i was recently challenged on this
doctrine and and i kind of agree with what i heard i would love to study a little bit more but it's
the idea that jesus didn't raise himself from the dead that the father rose him from the dead
and and that kind of actually makes acts two make more sense but okay john chapter 10 verse 17 you
brought up therefore doth my father love me because i lay down my life that i might take it again
again so so he's laying down his life in the sense that he died on the cross and he he allowed
himself to die on the cross so that's that part of the verse that i might take it again could just
simply mean that he's going to be resurrected not not necessarily saying you know that he is is going
to um do it because okay verse 18 you also brought up no man taken it from me but i lay it down of
myself i have power to lay it down and i have power to take it again this commandment have i received
to my father so i would say this let's compare this to john chapter one verse 12 but as many
who received him to them gave you power to become the sons of god i became a son of god when i
believed in jesus christ but i didn't actually do anything god the father did all of that to me like
he he quickened me and and made me born again and i became a child of god like i can't physically
make myself a child of god like i don't have that power i had the ability to believe in jesus christ
and that's what gave me that and i believe when saying this he had power to take his life again
that it it's not necessarily and it could be but it's not necessarily saying that jesus had the
ability to um raise himself from the dead but rather he was given the authority and given the
commandment to raise himself from the dead because this was as this commandment have received my
father so it's almost like god the father commanded the son to be risen from the dead and then he
comes out from the dead based on the power and authority granted from the father i don't know
if you want to back you up i want to back you up uh is john chapter 5 for as the father hath life
in himself so hath he given to the son to have life in himself so you're saying that he took that
which was offered to him and john chapter 5 literally talks about the father giving him life
well he had the authority to come back out of hell like think about this is one other person
that technically gets this authority in a sense it's the anti-christ so somehow the man of sin
or the man of perdition the son of perdition goes out into hell and then comes back out
so in some sense you could say he had the power to come out of hell or to take his life back again
yeah but that's it's not like he internally has that power it's like he was given the the authority
and the opportunity to do so and and i would almost argue that's the same with jesus that
it wasn't so much that jesus could just raise himself from the dead whenever he wanted but rather
the father is the one that's authorizing that and giving and and god the father is the one that rose
him from the dead he just obeyed that commandment and came out you know came so the father didn't
just give him the ability to do it though but rather the father actually yes rose him from the
dead yeah so that's the distinction between the anti-christ though and jesus neither of them have
the ability i think he just god the father raised jesus from the dead and i and maybe i don't want
to misquote the bible here we could look it up but i think the anti-christ um is the is it the
he's risen actually you know what it is i think it's the devil that orchestrates the resurrection
of the anti-christ so let's let's make sure he receives a deadly wound to the head and here's
the reason why it's the devil because he's referred to as the son of perdition and he's possessed by
satan so that that's the distinction between the anti-christ and jesus christ i thought it was in
revelation 13 when it described the uh anti-christ coming back up out from verse 3 and i saw one of
his uh well the heads as it were wounded to death and the deadly wound was healed yeah but there's
a specific verse that's talking about him coming out of of hell right do you know what verse i'm
talking about which let me see which was and is and is not or something like that maybe we can get
some help from the chat revelation 23 that's what yeah that's what i'm thinking of revelation 20
verse 3 let's see if i can get there real quick so it says in revelation 20 verse 3 oh that's 19 3
here we go and cast him into the bottom of his pit and shut him up and set a seal upon him that
he should deceive the nations no more he's bringing up the devil coming out not coming out of hell oh
i see yeah that's a different no i'm trying to think what is the verse there's there's some verse
that i thought was alluding to the antichrist coming back sometimes you just blank drag this
back over here maybe it's just the second thessalonians chapter uh the restrainer are
you talking about in second thessalonians chapter two well i thought he's going to descend out of
the bottomless pit that's that's what i'm thinking in my mind okay now that is it's but i descend
revelation 17 the beast that thou sawest was and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit
and go into perdition yes this is when they behold the beast that was and is not and yet is
sometimes you sometimes you have these like on the tip of your tongue and then other times you
forget okay so revelation chapter 11 yes the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit
revelation 11 verse 7 how how does you know to me that's another you know example of someone
having the ability to come out of hell um and and i don't know that it's necessarily it's not like
they're a bit like let me maybe i'm using the wrong word here here's another person coming out of
hell i don't think it was necessarily they had the internal ability or capability of coming out of
there it's like god doing a miracle so i i would say the same with well i think it's the devil
isn't it it doesn't say oh yeah that's true he is possessed by the devil but yeah i guess you're
right it doesn't necessarily tell you this is i don't know common sense do you uh want to follow
up on that i don't know if we lost him or not maybe we bored him by you jared did you have a
comment there i don't know if our spaces is still working right spaces is glitchy as hell sometimes
we got some thumbs up okay so he agrees with us yeah maybe all right well he's he's back to a
listener it looks like if i cycle let me let me try to get back in there myself see if it's i do
think the anti-christ is literally possessed by the devil after he comes back from his deadly wound
which is why he's referred to as the son of perdition and the only other man who's referred
to as the son of perdition in scripture is judas who was possessed by the devil just as a uh fun
fact although i i don't know how fun that fact truly is since we're talking about something so
morbid as the uh anti-christ but just something that i felt like pointing out there what do you
what do you think about the points that i made though well i agree i mean i i think that the
father gives the son life and and so he's resurrected by god the father i don't see an
issue with that and i think the way that you make sense of that scripture in john you know it uh it
aligns with those other verses yeah sorry sorry i tried to add you back in there i don't know what
happened on space but hello yep yep we can hear you i can't hear you oh man wonderful you gotta
love spaces ladies and gentlemen we try we try let me uh i wonder if i cycle them again one more
time let's see you having this conversation and then technology is it the devil it's elon he's
like this this space has got too many uh trues in here they're right on the jupil hello again all
right can you hear us we can hear you are we back yeah we can hear you can you hear us can hear you
okay good i can hear you too now perfect um yeah i think uh yeah i mean i i think i agree with your
points i mean i have a hard time thinking about christ in hell but at the same time he did pay
for it i mean it's something kind of in the back of my head i thought and then isn't there a psalm
where david says like where can i go to be away from you like if i go to in heaven you are there
in hell you are there psalm 39 well and here's another one how about jesus in matthew 1240 he
said for his jonas was three days and three nights in the well's belly so shall the son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth like that's a pretty case closed plus in
jona chapter two if you read it it has really gratuitous language about jona you know in his
situation and you can tell it's kind of a metaphor but it seems like it's literal from christ
perspective and it says out of the belly of hell cried i so you know jona wasn't really in the
belly of hell he could have been in a metaphor sense but i believe that that's jesus literally
being there and then that gives the whole context of x chapter number two that my soul shall rest
and hope um that he won't leave my soul in hell you know so so like think about this is this to me
this is an incredible point because if what i'm saying is true which of course i totally believe
it but if what i'm saying is true jesus not only died on the cross but he went to hell descended
to hell without the ability to raise himself relying only on the promise of the father to
raise him again from the dead and in a sense the ultimate faith the ultimate faith to say like i'm
gonna i'm gonna give myself mortality i'm gonna die physically and put myself in hell with my only
reliance and trust in god the father to raise me from the dead as like an ultimate picture of
faith in the sense that he's like trusting the promise of the father to raise him again from the
dead three days later as kind of like an ultimate example of faith now again he is god and he knows
everything and so i i don't want to take away from that but in a sense isn't that kind of like an
amazing picture of faith ben yeah i understand what i'm saying yeah i i get where you're coming
from the thing is you just have to get ready because we're going to end up in a troll video
whenever you bring this topic up no i i see what you're saying and the reality is uh there's a
full reliance on the father to raise him that up from the dead so but isn't that a picture of faith
the dragon gave him his power revelation 13 too by the way but that gave him his power seat and
authority that's yeah that's in the context i had someone text me that but yeah appreciate you uh
no let's go to common sense what i said your thoughts no i mean yeah i i oh i'm sorry let's
go to common sense no it's a it's a big topic it's uh you know and i i think yeah definitely
looking at it that way then definitely you know and it says that you know that would be a huge
testament of faith to lay down your life that way it's i just you know the big i mean i get it it can
it can sound a little jarring at first to hear that that jesus went to hell like i get it but
you just have to think about it from the context of he took our sins he became sin for us who knew
no sin that we might be made the righteousness of god in him the bible says he bore our sins in his
own body on the tree so he took the sins of the whole world onto himself died on the cross was
buried and then he descended into hell for three days and three nights taking our punishment so he
essentially took the punishment that you and i would deserve so that's the way that's the context
in which we should think about it and then it does kind of start to make a lot more sense and
then okay but then from that then i've always understood that the payment for our sin was on
the cross christ said on the cross it is finished if he goes to hell and then has three days of
continuing to pay for our sins that would sound more like the beginning than the end
well across as it's finished yeah of course and he said it's not to take away from the cross
and i mean here's the thing though i'm just thinking loud i'm not trying to yeah yeah no no
these are great points because i've thought about them too um this isn't this is a subject that a
lot of people have a different opinion on so i've heard a lot of these arguments before
and to me number one if he said it's finished well technically the gospel by strict definition
of first corinthians 15 is the death burn resurrection if you think about it none of
those events has even taken place when he says it is finished so you know to me you have to kind of
look at um what he could also what would be another way to interpret that and and frankly speaking he
uses the word finished a few times in the book of john and it's always in the context of the works
that he needed to accomplish from the father that he'd given him in the flesh. Is it the actual
translation is paid in full? No it just is tetanelesthai it that i mean here's the thing
even if you wanted to take that kind of a strange english um idea which again i think it means it is
finished because that's what the king james bible says but even if you said paid in full like
nothing was uh quote being paid in that sense of like monetary which usually if you're going to use
that that english it's like a paying like with currency but he did accomplish he did fulfill
everything necessary as far as from a scriptural perspective and i think that's what he's alluding
to because he he knows that he's fulfilled one more scripture that's why he drinks the vinegar
and then he's like okay it is finished and he has this like seven statements that he makes right
before he dies on the cross and you know so there's nothing to take away i'm not taking
away from that statement or what happened on the cross but let's be honest he has to rise from the
dead or none of it even matters that's the whole point of first grand things chapter 15 first
grand things 15 is abundantly clear and you know there's a lot of verses on the subject romans chapter
six verse nine says knowing that christ being raised from the dead dyeth no more death hath no
more dominion over him well roman six nine is telling us that death at some point did have
dominion over him it just now no longer has dominion over him and i think if we kind of
take him out of hell then we don't really have a a period of time where death quote had dominion
over him so you know to me because death if you understand the word death in the bible many times
it's alluding to just hell itself it's not just referring to a absence from the body that is a
interpretation of the word death and it can mean that in places but for many of the places in
scripture death simply is referring to hell as a location which would make sense again that he
he was in hell and dead for three days and three nights but then he rose again from the dead
whereas when you contrast that with living saints because the bible says that if you believe in
jesus you'll never taste of death like abraham isaac and jacob weren't dead in a state of being
they're in heaven jesus is the only one who is quote sage that had the state of being of being
dead for three days and three nights and then he rose again from the dead which is the state of
being so i i mean there's a lot of verses on this subject i've preached whole sermons on this and
you know i'm not i'm not against people that disagree with me on this but at the same time
like i do think the bible provides sufficient scripture um to argue very clearly that he did
go to hell and and came out of hell victorious that's why he was loose from the pains of hell
obviously the cross paid for our sins of course the death prayed for our sins the burial the
resurrection all of it all of it everything he did he had to fulfill messianic prophecies about
himself perfectly and when he accomplished that and his work on this earth was done he stated
it is finished before he died before he was buried before he rose again which is why i think that
alludes to the works that preceded that statement not that he had done everything to save us because
he hadn't even died yet yeah i mean think about it this way if if if if paid in full is that
interpretation and all the sins were accomplished at that point why didn't he just go straight up
to heaven why did he have to die then why did he have to be risen from the dead if it's technically
all paid for already like to me you're taking away from what the what the text is saying is
that it's in his blood like you know it's it's it's in his death it's in the cross i mean like
the point of the cross is death the point of the cross is not just torture the point of the cross
is death itself and it's through the death burial and resurrection that we have the forgiveness
of sins not just him being nailed to the cross but dying on the cross absolutely and all of it
is what saved us all aspects the entire gospel the full gospel there's these you know churches
that come so full gospel they're usually heretics but the full gospel right the entire thing is what
saved us and so just because we believe that he went to hell doesn't mean we're taking away
from any other aspect of the gospel we believe in all of it all of it is equally important we're
just adding a new dimension that i think creates even more weight to what jesus did and makes it
that much more powerful in my estimate well and i like roman's 5 10 it says for if when we were
enemies were reconciled to god by the death of his son much more being reconciled we shall be saved
by his life so that's giving a complexity to this this argument it's not just the death it's the
life which was the life was what the resurrection yeah exactly right we were reconciled through his
death and we were given salvation through his life it's a package deal you can't really cherry
pick only one aspect of it he was raised again for our justification the bible says in the last
verse of romans 4 you can't have the resurrection without the death right so it's all together to
me it's a package deal yeah you don't have to pick and choose i don't know if that helps you
know maybe with with what you brought up common sense what do you think about some of the verses
we brought up no it does it does yeah it kind of puts it all together and you know some it makes
sense for a little bit just chew on it for a little bit i want to monopolize your no you're good i mean
think about what jesus says in revelation one i have the keys of hell and of death like right that
to me fits with my viewpoint you know how does he get the keys of hell and of death you know otherwise
now well thank you for answering my questions i appreciate uh love watching you guys and listening
to you and you know respect the fact you know you guys are calling out a lot of heresies in the
church and i just appreciate the biblical foundation that you have in your teachings
and your preaching and so and your your worldview so thank you for that and appreciate you taking
the time to answer some questions for me i appreciate your common sense thank you
now have a great diet and thanks for chatting with us we're probably going to have to wrap
this up it's pretty late already um hey i enjoy it i like having the conversations
thanks guys for coming on the show thanks guys who joined in our spaces um and so i think we're
pretty much going to be done i you know i'm not mad at brother tom for his sermon i i just wish
that he would have the conversation because i would love to you know push back on some of the
things he said with him in person and you know of course i invited him to be on the show i would
prefer to have him here but he would rather just uh not so hey we still made we still made a
you know a video about it maybe someone can share it with him lovingly we'd love for him to change
his mind i i don't think that i ever was necessarily wrong on this issue but i think that i was
ignorant but i have been wrong on other issues before and i'm glad that people are willing to
you know have conversations with me show me what the bible says and i think we need to have some
meekness humbleness because we we all probably at one point were wrong on something goofed up on
some doctrine and it's nice to have people that not necessarily just slam dunk you when you're
wrong um i don't know what's your opinion ben do you want me to just slam dunk you the next time
you're wrong just let me have it i can take it i got thick skin hey the bible says for we ourselves
also were sometimes foolish disobedient deceived so yeah we were all there i mean i definitely was
wrong on zionism at one point in my life and especially on roman's chapter 11 i'll just leave
this as a final point in exodus 19 it says now therefore if if you will obey my voice indeed and
keep my covenant then you shall be a peculiar treasure under me above all people for all the
earth is mine so a lot of folks on the opposite end of the spectrum here when it comes to the
discussion tonight would argue that the jews are god's chosen people in spite of scriptures like
this which make it clear that if that's the case there should be some obedience well guess what
they haven't even obeyed the gospel they're not god's chosen people as a result the kingdom of
god has been taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of the rub spiritual
israel i think tonight we offered in my mind a fair response to the sermon pastor shelly and i
also think we made it clear that we are not making it personal with this individual we do believe he
saved we do believe he's a brother in christ and there will always be those naysayers who argue
that we were hateful and mean and all that but i really don't think we were you know at the end of
the day you can disagree with someone without hating them okay we're not liberals here they demand
100% ideological purity that's not who we are and so you know what i think we offered a fair response
and at the end of the day those who are wrong on this it's too bad i will just be praying for them
to get it right amen thanks so much for tuning in of course you can check us out tuesday nights
8 p.m we're going to have a special guest skeeter jean coming on the show you can join our mailing
list baptistbiased.com/join hi you can join our locals if you want to send us an email you can
send us an email at info@baptistbiased.com and i'm really excited about this season we've been
having a lot of good guests a lot of good conversations but we need your help to still
share the show invite people to check it out and encourage people to watch we really appreciate our
speakers today join me at band pastor on twitter we'd love to add you as a speaker in one of our
next shows hopefully it works out and that's going to pretty much do a wrap for us hey guys
don't worship the jews worship the lord jesus christ and get the baptist bias