anyone at home can do their own experiments to see that the earth in
fact is a flat disk with a glass dome think about it just grab a rubber ball
and place it under a faucet notice how the water doesn't stick to the ball I
wonder why look at your shoe when you're standing outside is it curved I don't
think so go take a flight somewhere last time I checked you aren't flying
sideways like this how would that even work folks if I jump up I'm gonna land
right where I started from cuz we ain't spinning don't give me that look you
know what I'm saying is true and you know what why stop at Flat Earth I say
we expand our horizons flat Sun flat moon it's just a light bulb anyway
everything's flat the sky is a hologram you say this all sounds crazy hey it may
sound crazy to you but the Flat Earthers are everywhere from North
America to Asia all over the globe and if you think they're stupid wicked or
both and that their brains have been fried with the most nonsensical
cosmology you've ever heard in your entire life that they seem to be under
some kind of delusion that takes reality denial to a whole new level and when
you hear them speak you cannot help but point and laugh it sounds to me like
you've got a case of the Baptist bias everybody thanks for joining us on the
Baptist bias we've got a interesting show this evening not a typical one we're
gonna have a special debate with Austin Witz it and in fact we have a special
moderator I guess we only use Owens but we've got Owen Benjamin's gonna be
moderating for us and we've got a lot of people all over the globe this evening
gonna be tuning in and watching the show but I'm not your host I'm gonna be
kicking over to Owen. Owen Benjamin thanks so much for coming on the show
and moderating this discussion for us. This is a very exciting I wasn't aware
of pastor Shelley I just looked him up though looks kind of based looks pretty
cool I know Wits it gets it he's a solid dude and this is a fun debate I know
thing to to be really condescending and ad hominem and all of that but I just
set up some parameters in the beginning so that it's very constructive I want
both sides to agree that the other side's opinion does not make them evil
or stupid or crazy dangerous can we all like verbally agree that agreed I'm not
gonna attack Austin personally in the show but I do think that some flat
earthers are wicked so I don't know if that is yeah well some people who like
lemonade are wicked this is what we this is what we need we need a higher level
of logic here so when you say some earthers are wicked so like Brahms are
wicked all right now you guys talk about that flat earth is dangerous I'd also
like everybody to agree that the food pyramid is more dangerous or the belief
in margarine okay can you see that that's more dangerous like believing the
earth is flat is objectively not dangerous and it does not mean you're
stupid can you admit that before we start well of course I think it's stupid
I'm that's the whole point of the discussion I mean no but it doesn't mean
the person okay like I agreed to do this because I think that we can have a good
lodge people debate but if you're just gonna be like an ankle biter just follow
the rules all right do you think that someone is stupid if they believe it
this that there is person or a dangerous person or a crazy person well I couldn't
I couldn't be honest with the fact that if I believe the earth is a globe and
that's a fact that someone who doesn't believe that that wouldn't be stupid so
you can't answer the question you just can't answer no the answer you think
everyone who is stupid and crazy that believes like you we can't do a debate
if that's the if that's the presumption yeah but if I write his position has
merit then why would I have my position I mean the poster that no no I never
asked literally had a show to me saying that they're stupid so I can't
contradict okay you ready I'm not saying do you think his position has merit do
you think that everyone who believes in the Flat Earth is a stupid I think that
lots of people are intelligent but that position is stupid okay so do you
believe that everyone who believes the earth is flat is a stupid yeah it's a
yes or no question this is super easy man I'm not even trying to be
antagonistic I'm trying to be like totally unbiased you in the show so
aggressively with your little lightbulbing and like posturing like
everyone's dumb that's not how you start a debate like that's that's
dishonorable well I did agree to the debate and said that it would be kind of
hostile and again I'm not trying to I'm willing to have the conversation I'm
not gonna just sit here and just make insults so if that's what you're not
worried about because something here I have something here this is called the
ad hominem, okay Pastor Shelley? Sure. So you do an ad hominem where you call
someone a name I'm gonna blow it in your face it's called the ad hominem and a
long ago time men who did the bail that you're not supposed to attack the
character of the other person and I feel like I really have to like instill this
in you because I can already tell that's your main thing if you try to do ad
hominem I will blow the ad hominem and I'll also do it with logic fallacies
like appeal to authority appeal lenses circular reasoning red hair you
understand so that's it like if you start running your mouth like everyone's
stupid but you and you're this special boy ad homo horn and wits it gets it
I'll say the same deal gets willing to admit the people that believe in the
heliocentric model it does not mean they're evil can we admit that yeah of
course yeah can you admit that it does not mean they're stupid it does not
mean they're liars and it does not mean that they can't have it can to God
because I hear that with flat earthers and I don't believe that at all so are
you willing to verbally admit that someone can in the heliocentric model and
still have a functioning connection with God not be a liar not be stupid can we
all agree to that yeah of course some of the smartest most based spirits like
Christians in the world were out there at the globe see how easy that is pastor
show it's that simple I think you're trying to straw me straw man me here and
again like I agreed to the show because I do think the position is stupid and
the people believing it it's stupid so like that is my position now that doesn't
mean that those in your position is the people who believe it are all stupid at
least in that category in that category yeah I mean if someone told me that they
think that a man is a woman I would say that that's stupid I will do this but
this is already a little a little ridiculous because this isn't a debate
you're just calling names and I'm trying to set a parameter that it's also not
faith-based can you agree that this is not a faith-based belief right like it
requires proof you can argue it like if someone disagrees with you it does not
make them evil and you have to use logic and reason to attempt to back up your
case not ad hominem not snarky little things like you just did okay will you
admit to that before we start and then we will start but I really don't want
this to be a shit show where you're just so backed into a corner that you're like
well I mean you know we're like flying with a pizza on it like we it's that's
not productive dude and it's it's kind of a joke I thought comedians understood
what humor was but the conversation conversation I don't understand what
humor is I don't know why I just have the discussion why can we just have the
discussion I'm setting rules pastor Shelley so you're now claiming that I
comedian Owen Benjamin does not understand what humor is is that your
claim I just didn't assume that you would be so offended by words like idiot
considering the fact that in your bits no no I'm not a copy names all the time I
mean it's someone said that they think that I call you a queer you're a queer
gay dick gay like why can't we call each other names I'm not if I'm not afraid of
that it's not afraid it's not afraid it's that if your argument requires
ad hominem it's not an argument and that mine does not require it I just was
simply bringing it in so we could have a fun show how about this every ten
minutes we'll take a minute and we can call each other pussies and asses and
you suck and you're stupid that way you can get your jollies off all right is
that good every ten minutes we will take a timeout cuz pastor Shelley wants to
call people names and he thinks we're afraid of his names I just want to have
a go okay nobody's boundary okay but you're willing to so you're agreeing now
you're verbally agreeing that you will not call names you won't do appeal to
our you won't do logic fallacies you will do that I'm talking with three
year old right now like you won't eat the ice cream in the car I feel like I'm
having to sign a covert contract now or something like that or the community
guidelines for YouTube or something I thought this was a free speech platform
okay one more time pastor Shelley all right I realize I just don't want to I
just don't want to agree to some vague definition of Owen Benjamin's view of a
logical fallacy because couldn't you be wrong I feel like the moderator is just
making sure that we're we're fair on time and that people aren't over
each other I'm setting the rules because I know ad hominem is what you're up to
ad hominem has a very very clear definition I understand what ad hominem
attack is I'm not planning on doing that as to Shelly let me finish real quick
you just said I don't you just said that I'm making things up as I go okay ad
hominem means you attack the person not the argument are you willing to admit
will you say that you will not do that during this debate and if you do I will
blow my ad homo horn I'll do my best to avoid that so you can't you can't do
that like you I'm just saying I'm just saying like I'm just saying I I'm not
gonna try to do that but it you mean speech doesn't mean mentally retarded
just because you can say something doesn't mean that you can't control
yourself based on a boundary that we're setting right now this isn't just do the
show not until we set the guideline or else it'll just be yelling at you feel
like I made a mistake then just call it out let's just move on so you won't say
that you won't attack his character during the debate like you can't agree
to that because it's free speed that's an arbitrary definition ad hominem
ad hominem attack I understand what an ad hominem attack is so okay based on
that definition will you attack Austin I'm not planning on doing it no you're
not planning on doing it okay so you can't agree to that so if you do do
that it's cuz you can't control yourself yes whatever whatever definition you
want to attribute let's just could we just do the show I don't understand it's
not a show it's a debate why can't we start with five minutes I thought I was
supposed to debate Austin possible all right you want to go against me with
mockery this is what I do for a living okay we're doing debating right now we're
not doing mockery because I would beat you badly I've done it professionally
for 25 years okay that is refusing to hear anybody call a name this okay in a
marriage you're afraid of the word retarded let's say we're at a wedding
and I'm marrying two people and I say let's not mock Puerto Ricans yes and you
go well I can't agree to that I mean what so there's no free space this is a
debate this is not a comedy show I did not agree to do a comedy show okay I'm
not expecting it to be a comedy show I know okay got it all right so are we
subtle we're gonna do this you're not gonna attack the character you're gonna
because I don't even I don't even know Austin to attack his character no no
no it's like everyone who believes this is a dumb person they're crazy right I
just watched your intro it was retarded okay so if that's your argument that
isn't an argument that I didn't argue that was just a funny intro to the show
that's not me no one laughs okay like no one in the world laughs like I know
comedy all right I'm sure people over the globe thought it was stupid it was
stupid everyone thought it was stupid so you can have you can ad hominem attack
me all day long but you I can't do that that's I just want to make sure I
understand yeah definitely I will not add hominem you if you agree to not add
hominem everybody else let's go because if not I'm gonna mock your mother go for
it okay okay well just remember that and when your mom gets upset just let her
know that you couldn't enjoy dad so good luck upsetting her that's even
easier to mock dead people can't say anything back faster shall we dead
people just moderate the debate please I just want you to know that if I mock
your dead mom what are you afraid you afraid of frisbees no I'm not I want to
have the show right now I'm doing it right now are you afraid that I'm gonna
destroy Austin or something like what's the point why can't we just have the show can we
please just have the show yeah we can have the show as long as you agree to not
do it if you if you won't have the show we'll just kick you off because there's
no point even having this conversation can we just have the show so now you
want to kick me off no I want to have the show I want you to just moderate the
discussion let's start with our five-minute opening this minute imagine
if I say let's play basketball no one uses a knife okay and you're like well
I can't guarantee it won't use a knife let's just play basketball you're like
you're like you have to agree no ad hominem or else we're not doing this
because that's all you're gonna do is you're gonna be like basketball game they
all agree not to foul people but if they do they get it called by the ref that's
your job just do the show okay so if you ad hominem I'll just call you out for it
go for it let's do the show okay cool let's do this all right so we're gonna
start off with five minutes each each person has five minutes to go and then
the other person gets to respond to the five minutes when you're at four minutes
I will ring a bell that bell lets you know you have one more minute okay if
there are logic fallacies you will get the ad homo horn okay and then after
that we can do a little bit of back and forth and at the end we'll have closing
arguments sound good boys yeah yeah let's go for it
pastor Shelley's that sound good let's do it okay since it's home court pastor
Shelley I'll ask you would you like to go first or would you like to pass the
baton to which it gets let him go for it that's very nice of you and I do
appreciate that and I think we're already making up a little bit all right
so we're gonna start the clock we are we're gonna end up friends after this we
will you'll see I'm gonna start the clock at five minutes and so widget is
arguing in the affirmative that the earth is a flat not moving plane pastor
Shelley is arguing against that that it is a spinning ball in a vacuum all right
so that's the parameters all right let's kick this thing off let me get my little
clock reset and go all right yeah so thanks for having me on thanks for
modding Owen um so the position is pretty simple we were kind of all told
that the earth is a spinning ball and then it flies through space but if you
actually think about everything logically we need to step back and so
the default position is actually that the earth is a stationary plane so yeah
I take the affirmative position that it is a stationary plane and that's
supported with every you know empirical piece of evidence that exists so we
obviously don't experience the earth moving we in fact we have highly
precise interferometry measurements that have shown that the earth's not moving
we obviously see the horizons horizontal we actually use plane
survey to do all civil engineering to build everything in the world as if the
earth is flat we fly the plane as if the earth is flat and stationary so on the
surface unintended right everything is the default being that the earth is flat
and stationary of course we see everything in the sky move etc so
there's a claim that the opposite of that is true so actually in terms of
logic right you that has a pretty substantial burden of proof we've
already substantiated just with a default empirical position but that's
kind of the meta here and one thing that happens a lot is people typically they
say well if the earth is flat then how does this work you know like oh well
what is the moon then you know and I've never been to the moon by the way no one
has and I don't know what it is I don't need to know what it is to falsify this
claim that the earth is a globe right so falsification is independent of
replacement that's important and hopefully we can keep that in mind
going through the conversation because if the tactic is just to say if I can
get a gotcha on the flat earth there of how the whole universe works and somehow
the earth becomes a ball again that's an illogical way to go about it and then
I'll go through some of the evidences that we have that directly refute it you
go back into time you get to 1887 Michelson-Morley they did an
interferometry test and it showed that the earth is not moving so much so that
the Graveler named Einstein had to come in and change all physics and say that
time slows down and the measuring rod contracted to deceive us into thinking
that the earth is stationary and that's the modern claim of physics today to
claim the earth is moving through space you actually have to say time slows
down to trick you into thinking so and that's a positive claim that literally
can't be verified at all that test has been replicated hundreds of times even
in modern history so the interferometry measurements show that the earth's not
moving it's the most precise way to measure motion in the world and actually
when we do detect the rotational motion with say ring laser gyros it changes
with altitude which is impossible on a sphere the actual measurement would have
to stay the same at latitude regardless of altitude so that's a direct
falsification of the claim that the earth is moving which is actually again
the positive claim needs to be substantiated anyway as to the the flat
part of it like I said we already utilize the earth as if it's flat we
make plane survey measurements we literally measure the earth to be flat
that's how we do civil engineering to build runways railways bridges our
entire life is literally built upon the understanding the earth's flat and the flat
earth measurements called plane survey measurements what then happens is people
take those flat earth measurements stitch them together and claim the earth's a
globe with a presupposed r-value and so that's going to get into how we know for
sure that this globe model that was brought to us by Jesuits is incorrect we
actually falsified the radius so if the radius value is wrong the entire model is
wrong because the globe model's day and night cycle uses that gravity uses that
distances on the earth use that everything about the model boils down
to the radius value of the sphere that is proposed the way that we have falsified
that and there are many ways we've shown that the horizon is in fact not physical
it's apparent and we've seen the horizon over 10 times further than it
needs to be requiring the radius value be 250 000 miles away
baselessly just saying the r word saying refraction doesn't make it true you have
to substantiate that we also have a line of sight radio wave transmissions
that go far beyond the limit limit of the curvature of the earth
and microwave transmissions up to 10 000 miles
and it should get blocked to say a couple hundred miles and so we that's a
physical test that shows that the earth is a plane
and there are there are many more right so really just to reiterate it because
i think i'm coming up on the five minutes the
the simple part is that 30 seconds a simple part is that we have our burden
of proof substantiated as the default that the earth is stationary plane
that the stuff in the sky moves and then the claim that the earth is
actually the opposite of that requires the burden of proof
and we went a step further and even tested that claim and falsified the rate
our value and claim of motion therefore you know it can't be anything other than
a stationary plane okay that was almost exactly five minutes
excellent open remarks focusing mainly on the
burden of proof being on that who makes the claim
and since um you know your eyes ears what not
it appears that the earth is not moving the person who claim it is moving has to
make the claim and then he backed that up with many
things now it's pastor shelly's turn for a five minute opening
and i will give you the bell at four minutes and 30 seconds
go ahead well i did have a opening statement prepared
uh i'm not going to be able to read that because apparently ad hominem is not
allowed so i will appeal to the parts of what
i was going to say uh that don't necessarily bring up bible
verses or what this conversation is about but
specifically proving the earth is a sphere takes about 30 seconds there's
plenty of youtube videos online that prove that you can watch them
there's one minute videos two minute videos 10 minute videos
there's plenty of things that appeal to all the evidences
and all the proofs number one you know the stars are flipped from the northern
and southern hemisphere which makes it abundantly clear
that we're on a sphere and yeah people are walking upside down
to us uh and additionally we see the sun rise in the east set in the west
we have thousands of photos and videos of the earth from satellites sent
over by 90 countries there's over 90 countries that set up satellites
it's that simple the earth is obviously a sphere it's been observed
it's been tested everything we experience in our lives
uh confirms a spherical earth as well as you know a helocentric viewpoint of our
solar system specifically and additionally when it comes to
history the bible or science they all appeal to the
exact same thing in isaiah 40 verse 22 the bible says it is he that sit upon
the circle of the earth and the bible has always known about the
shape of the earth it's always known about
different calls cosmology and different things that we experience see
in our universe and science is always catching up to
the bible specifically um for a long time i honestly didn't believe that
flat earthers even existed so you know it definitely is something
that uh for me i was not aware of i kind of
thought it was a fake and yet i have run into some people
that you know do a claim like in my personal life that i know that are
flat earthers and there's been some people that have
changed their mind so i do think that it is possible for
someone to change their mind on this particular issue
when it comes to their specific evidences you know it seems like they
have about six basic categories that i typically
find their arguments it seems like number one they typically
appeal to experiments where they see things further away than expected
these are typically over large bodies of water and they don't really consider
refraction or elevation changes another thing that
they do is they appeal to simple observations like it looks fat and it
feels flat however you can't always feel movement in a car or an airplane
additionally they appeal to the bible but the bible is not compatible with
their model whatsoever number four they usually appeal to the
fact that government lies about things like 9/11, vaccines, JFK
and sure the government does lie a lot but that doesn't prove that they're
lying about the shape of the earth another the fifth one that they
usually bring up is discarded or debunked alternative scientific theories
such as geocentrism the ether we even heard earlier the appeal to the
michelson-morley experiment however that was based on the
fact that the earth is moving and it did not prove that the earth
doesn't move it proved that simply they can't detect any ether
and so the ether was discarded shortly after it was decided that
the speed of light is a constant and so if the speed of light is a
constant you know it really disrupts a lot of
those older scientific theories and the ether was basically discarded
as being unuseful and predicting anything uh the
sixth thing that typically firefighters will do is they will appeal to the fact
that there's bad science and of course there is when it comes to
the big bang theory when it comes to evolution
these things are complete junk they're not true they're made up
and so they kind of appeal to that as a gateway
into the idea that there's other lies other bad science
and they suggest that somehow the heliocentric view
or the spherical earth is somehow bad science again
but when it comes to you know this specific situation
you know I think it's really clear that this is just a distraction
from what's really important and I think that Owen kind of brought this up
earlier and the idea that this isn't the biggest issue necessarily I think it's
a distraction from the gospel of Jesus Christ
I think that that's our sole purpose on this earth is to get saved
and to give people the gospel so that they could be saved
and it seems like every time I run into a flat earther they
only want to talk about that like they're just so ardent
and just so vitriolic for that particular viewpoint it just seems like
their whole world view and so you know I do think that it's
certainly a distraction I have a lot of other
strong opinions about that but I'll keep them to myself for now so
we're good to go. Okay so that concluded Pastor Shelley's
opening statement and his argument rested on
two minute five minute and ten minute YouTube videos existing.
Ninety countries have said so the government sometimes doesn't lie
and that flat earthers rely too much on experiments
how things look and feel. He knows some people who have changed his mind
and the speed of light is a constant. One question I would ask because a lot of
what his argument rested on was the church.
Was the church always heliocentric globe based
even before Galileo? So was it always this?
Because you said science catches up to the globe. I'm just curious
was the church always a globe model?
Just to be clear I said the Bible so just because
people may have bad interpretations or not understand the Bible
doesn't mean that the Bible is wrong. Additionally I think it's
impossible to always know what happened throughout history
but yes historically Christianity there's been plenty of Christians that
have believed in a spherical earth but there have been people that have
denied that so I think it's a mixed bag. I would not say
it's all one or the other. Well Galileo was arrested for
taking the earth moved in the 17th century
so that's that's not exactly a mixed bag but anyway
so now we're going to kick it over to Wits It Gets It for a three minute
rebuttal to Pastor Shelley's opening statements.
Go ahead three minutes. Okay yes so on the the scriptural thing I mean you
obviously brought up Isaiah 40-22 and that circle a specifically different
word in Hebrew than he uses just before that which is a different word for ball.
So he specifically doesn't call it ball and I actually have heard seen a video
of you and I didn't look too much into it but you said uh I hear a bunch of
people say Hebrew cosmology and you said yeah well the Jews are wrong about
everything. Well um you know the Messiah was a
Jew I guess right and I think he would have probably said hey you guys got the
first part of the book wrong so that's a wild argument to me it
obviously says it's immovable and fixed it's it's you have to claim that the
scripture's uh creation description is not literal
but uh I can prove that the scripture is literally correct
outside of it right and so I find that part um very interesting truth doesn't
fear investigation and that's what makes it so fascinating um
and so we just can cover quickly the stuff you got wrong you said that they
discovered that the speed the speed of light was constant
uh no that's not correct he assumed that it was because it had to be along
with time dilation and length contraction in fact it's been proven not
to be there's anisotropic signal propagation
accounted for even in gps you brought up satellites so i guess we can get into
it but satellites in no way prove the earth's a globe they actually use
ellipses over a plane with a change in velocity relative to the center of the
coordinate system and real inertial forces of a rotating
universe which are geocentric physics in their equations it actually is
evidence for geocentrism if satellites are up above us
you said that mickelson morley just failed to detect the ether that's just
patently incorrect it was the relative motion of the earth in
the ether what they were trying to detect was
literally the motion of the earth at 30 kilometers per second through an ether
they didn't they threw the ether out they then said that time slowed down
that the measuring apparatus contracted to deceive them into thinking that the
earth was stationary you say we just say that we see too far
uh well yeah there's physical limits to living on a sphere and it doesn't
comport to what we see and we've seen hundreds of miles where
there should be literally three four five vertical miles blocking what we see
and so you're gonna have to verify the claim that it's all an illusion so
i'll just reiterate the point again you you have the burden of fruit to
substantiate these claims you basically just
use a baseless assertion fallacy over and over and then you kind of appeal to
consensus and then you use a bunch of stereotype fallacies and poisoning the
well fallacies and then reification fallacies and
affirming the consequent fallacies and uh none of that is is obviously going to
cut it logically so we'll have to we'll have to get more into actual evidence
okay and also i'm not trying to come across as biased i really am just
listing someone's arguments swear to god i wasn't trying to be
like that so i'm going to try and be less biased no i literally made a list of
your arguments and i read them back all right anyway so that was uh wits it
gets it responding to yours and now i'm going to give you
mr pastor anderson three minutes to respond
to his and i will say this thank you for the lack of ad hominems it means a lot
to me it really truly does and uh i i do appreciate it and it shows a
lot of honor okay and just for the record i don't know
what the earth is so i'm not this guy i i'm not like biased in that sense i'm
just a stickler when it comes to our logic
fallacies okay pastor shelly you have three minutes go
no problem he accidentally called me pastor anderson but you clarified
again secondly uh austin did not address the fact that the stars are
flipped from the southern northern hemisphere which was my first argument
additionally he didn't address the fact that the sun is rising in the east and
setting in the west which is my second argument
third argument was all the videos and photos that i brought up
he did not address my third argument he likes to appeal to theoretical physics
and act like he's smart and like he knows what he's talking about on those
issues but he's wrong and specifically when it comes to the
michelson-morley experiment he's wrong again they already know the
fact that the earth is moving around the sun
what it disproved was the ether but i don't really care about getting into
theoretical physics because we have so many simple proofs
that he wants to ignore and not talk about that clearly prove the shape of
the earth and a heliocentric model i would love to
discuss isaiah 40 verse 22 he brought up the hebrew underlying word
which is hug i'm sure he doesn't speak hebrew and
specifically if we look at this word in all translations it appeals to the
exact same thing if we look up at the word
circle in the dictionary it will tell you that it's a sphere
and it's the earth and it's an orb so he just wants to
hide behind just sounding smart on these issues but
the problem is the bible is very clear and i get
offended by someone that wants to say that the bible is teaching a flat earth
because that would in my mind be heretical
and it's very clear that the bible is compatible
with a spherical shape of the earth with a heliocentric model
i'm not sure if i understood if he said satellites don't exist or maybe they
don't exist in the way that we describe them so i
would i'm not sure exactly what his argument was on that particular issue
but again theoretical physics did not exist
the 1600s or the 1300s or if we want to go all the way back before the time of
price when tons of people had already proven
the earth was a sphere when we talked about arrest
eratosthenes eratosthenes had discovered the circumference of the earth
before the time of christ and we have maps we have globes we have all kinds of
images from the bible of people showing that the earth is a sphere
believing it's a sphere i don't need modern
scientific theories okay great job and we will
kick it back to witson in one second for him to address and i wrote these down
uh stars being flipped in the southern hemisphere the
sun rising in the east and the west aristosthenes
and the hq the who good question and i will add this though as the moderator
i get to look things up and pastor shelley just said that circle means
a globe and i just looked it up circle uh the definition a closed
plane curve consisting of all points at a given distance from a point
within it called the center not only is that not correct
factually it's actually the opposite can i can i
clarify that point no it's a it's a two it's a two-dimensional closed
that's a circle can i clarify what i meant i just read you you said the
dictionary 1828 in the 1828 webster's dictionary
which would be closer to the 1611 king james bible and was translated
if you look at the second definition of the word circle
it literally says orb and sphere and earth no problem no it doesn't it says
circle circuit compass that's what the word means in hebrew
you just yeah yeah and and we do get to fact check you this is not meeting by
i have the image if you want me to pull it up on the screen i can pull it up i'm
looking at the concordance right now right it says circle circuit compass
those are the three words that it's translated as okay in the king james
on the first the first definition of 1828 in geometry a plain figure
comprehended by a single curved line called its circumference every part of
which is equally distant from a point called the center
of course all lines drawn from the center to the circumference or
periphery are equal to each other that is the
first what's the second definition in popular use so not
not the definition i'm i'm just gonna like when it says
in popular use no no but i'm establishing this you said the
definition is a globe or a ball but the
definition is actually a flat plane in popular use which
basically means slang like grabler if you read the first
definition it says in geometry so yeah it's saying clarifying in a 2d
drawing of geometry it's a it's okay fair enough
fair enough the line that comprehends the figure the plane or surface
comprehended and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance
are demonstrated in a circle a ring and orb
the earth okay so it says ring circle i mean you invoked it geometrically
saying it was describing a sphere that's a geometric argument
yeah ring is not but it's fine so if we if we read if we read orb
orb is provided in the definition and if you just type in this is really a weird
reach to me bro this is a weird how is that a weird reach
i will give you that i'll give you that i'm i'll give you that the word orb
is in there i did not know that and that is
a valid point and if you just type an orb into just
we can put on the screen but if you type an orb in the miriam webster
1828 dictionary and read what it says about what an orb is
there is a very in plain sight saying that it's a sphere
yeah can there something be a circle and not a sphere
in a two-dimensional world of course a circle what do we have quarters in the
real three-dimensional world that's not a sphere and it's not it's not
a circle it's not a circle it's a disc so there's a difference
okay okay so i'm gonna it's round look like i have to keep this i have to keep
this focused so i'm kicking it back over to austin
he's now only gonna have two minutes i keep taking some time off
and you have to uh direct uh address specifically these points
uh hug in hebrew which means circle and according to the 1828 dictionary
which is the closest to the 1611 king james bible
the second definition in popular use has or been there
that is the point he's making okay um so just just understand that that doesn't
make you stupid that you don't know all those points all right
but anyway that's the point stars in the southern hemisphere have
a different path that's something to be addressed different
uh constellations i've heard that a lot i've heard some uh
some interesting and uh thought-provoking arguments against the
flat earth saying in the southern hemisphere
the constellations go the other way let's just focus on one argument because
two minutes is not realistic from to address all that no i'm how i'm how i'm
i'm elaborating your argument i literally am giving you a good argument
because i've thought about this some like that the stars in the southern
hemisphere are moving in a way that may contradict the current flat
earth model okay also the sun rising in the east setting
in the west and of course the pre jesus philosopher
eratosthenes who apparently calculated the size of the earth
on the orb okay so those are the points that need to be addressed
and you have two minutes yeah so the the southern star trials for one
obviously the direction is not a problem at all it's just merely perspective if
you look south it'll look like they're going the other way
they're all just rotating one way every star in the sky goes east to west right
so clockwise counterclockwise they're relative
perceptive directions um yeah i guess the stronger argument you should
be making is that it supposedly goes around a central point rotating and how
would it rotate around that point well actually we have observations of
people in the south where it doesn't match where the where it should be the
actual cardinal direction it should be on the globe
and then of course we're not even against all the the magnetic declination
corrections when you see the star trails and how it's like oh well that's not
really south because i have to correct 78 degrees according to my globe
declination map so long story short where you think that
you're seeing it perfectly it's kind of an assumption
that isn't actually what always happens and it's been replicated even with the
dome it'll just reflect out the central part and it'll look like it's
rotating the other way around i do agree that the star trails if you
never have heard in this you can just say that it doesn't make sense but you
have to like look into it see some visualizations there are demonstrations
that show it this is exactly what i predicted would
happen though no one ever addresses the falsification of the r value and they
say look at this guy explain the world so we have sunsets east and west on
here you said i don't know why is that a problem for the earth it's all been
perfectly replicated we can predict every single celestial phenomena
actually shane made it modeled it all out for you guys because you love models
and then of course to to try to make it in the two minutes we have very simply
like i said and this wasn't addressed there's two different words one is used
for ball or sphere and one is used for circle isaiah
specifically uses different terms right and one of
which he uses for the earth is a circle i don't care what american
englandized dictionary said 200 years later that doesn't change it
all right we're about to send it back over and i want to do a follow-up
just like i did with him with the church like because there's other there's
questions i have with the flat earth model
austin how do you explain that in the southern atmosphere the days are longer
uh in the summer shorter in the winter and they have uh
allegedly i've never been there but allegedly there's
uh 24 hours of daylight when you get close to the south pole
when you get uh really south and um chilly like would that mean the sun
would have to go fast down there like that to me
is pointing towards a heliocentric and uh how would you clarify that like how
would you clarify the very long days in the southern hemisphere in the
winter and the very short days in the um in our summer yeah so it's
it's the same it's the same way that the globe explains how the earth spins
faster at the equator than at a northern or southern latitude so you have
tangential velocity and angular velocity meaning
it can continue to go at the same angular velocity but go
faster so in the south it would have to be speeding up like in tangential
speed tangential velocity but it could just maintain the same angular speed it
would give you a longer day because the sun is going to be over a portion of it
longer and then as to and this this ties in
the end of that answer also ties into the next question you ask which is like
say the 24 hour sun well we don't actually see the 24 hour
sun itself right they doctor footage so but we see the daylight um and the
daylight is has been replicated also with a dome if you have a dome
like the scriptures blatantly say with the firmament it will actually reflect
around in something called the coffee cup caustic
and it reflects around the entire brim of a dome so the 24-hour sunlight is not a
problem for the plain earth the 24-hour sun would be and they
passed around this footage of supposedly a 24-hour sun for two years
and we found out that they faked it they came out and
admitted that it was faked so uh yeah that kind of answers both of
those questions if there if there's a container
yeah because 24-hour sun i don't think it is possible on a flight like it would
have to be like a glow you know what i mean like if
it's going all the way around if you saw this sun all day long
it would have to be a ball but uh you're making the claim that they fake that
footage and i've never been there but you see pastor shelly i'm i'm going both
sides here can i comment on that yeah i'm about to
swing it back over to you so let's do another two minutes each and
then i'll let you guys kind of uh go back and forth a bit and then
we'll do some closing statements or do you want to take uh questions from the
audience whatever you guys want or we can go as long as you want i'm i'm
feeling good about this good job with the ad hominems i want you
to know that i wasn't being a dick it really does help
all right two minutes pastor shelley go ahead
well what austin said does not explain why there's seasonality
in the southern hemisphere and you see longer daylight cycles because
uh specifically it's the tilt of the earth the tilt of the earth that causes
that so in some parts of the season the tilt is
angled more towards the sun so it gets more daylight
if if the earth was a was not tilted then you would have just perfect
12 hour uh daylight and nighttime seasons and near the equator because
it's virtually the same distance to the sun no matter where
it orbits the sun that's why it's at 12 but when you go
in dallas sometimes it's 14 hours during the summer
sometimes it's 11 hours for the winter cycle
that's due to the tilt of the earth and it being slightly further away
from the sun it's not about the tangential velocity that he brought up
so he's just flat wrong even on our viewpoint
specifically when it comes to isaiah 40 22 i just wanted to comment
because if you read the duet reams which was translated in 1500s
in the 1500s they translated isaiah 40 verse 22 as the globe of the earth
the 1602 purificata the spanish bible said el
globo de la tierra which means the exact same thing globe of the earth
if we look at the king james where it says circle of the earth we all understand
that we don't live in a two-dimensional world and so that's why it's relevant
what that would mean in a three-dimensional world and i brought up
now you get more time i'm just 30 seconds go ahead okay sorry
and at three it's a warning bell it's important that the sphere
would be the definition so that we can understand
what we're talking about here um i did want to also comment when he brought up
the idea of explaining michelson-morley or any of these other things he's really
just not addressing the issue when he talked
about the stars in the northern and the southern hemisphere
he did not give a response that made any sense
it's very clear that looking at it from two different perspectives it would be
upside down okay it's been two minutes so i'm going
to follow up a little bit because you're claiming he's not
um giving any argument but you know like what's your evidence for the
tilt of the earth you just stated that as fact and said he was wrong
so what is your evidence that the tilt of the earth is why the days change the
seasons because obviously i learned that in
school we all know about the tilt of the earth
how do you state that as a fact and what is your
evidence so they have there's multiple evidence number one
part half the year northern or the north pole
is that observation i'm not trying to be rude to cut you off but
evidence isn't an observation so when you say there's a longer day in the
northern hemisphere that isn't evidence that the earth is
tilted that's an observation and then you make a hypothesis
and then you're supposed to do a test an experiment
and then you're supposed to get a theory test the theory that's actually the
scientific method when you say the stars look different it's a globe
that's actually the first step of the scientific method
is observation then you make a hypothesis then you prove the hypothesis
so what is the evidence that we are that
the earth is tilted well the way people did calculate
this was based on observations of daylight
being different so if i can calculate the difference of how much daylight
there is then i could calculate the tilt of the earth
and seasonality and the fact that we have summer and winter and the fact that
we have full daylight no that's not true northern and
southern pole so based on and i'm not being biased
you can calculate that's not science you you're saying my dog is slow
therefore he ate a shoe it's like you just
if you make an observation that there's different
days and seasons and all that and then you say therefore it's a globe
you have to prove how you know it's about the tilt of the earth
right and you're and you don't even know how they came up with the tilt of the
earth so like do you know how they came up with
the tilt of the earth what is the experiment that shows that we are on a
ball that's tilted not an observation with a hypothesis
what is the evidence what it what shows that we are on a globe
that's tilted what is the evidence because you stated it as a fact
so so if i if i go in a spaceship and i observe that the earth is tilted that is
not evidence your model says you wouldn't be able to
see that the earth was tilted in space see this is what i'm saying that you
you don't know how it happened but the way it is the sun moves on an ecliptic
we have an analima and they saw that the sun moves through
the sky at an angle and they said okay well if we assume we're on the earth
as a sphere moving that must mean the earth is tilted
causing the illusion that the that the earth or the sun is on that
circuit so i want to make it clear that when austin brings up every observation
it's just he's not allowed to make that argument so any observation he's ever
made seeing the distance of anything or anything he's ever seen cannot be
brought as an argument because somehow that's not evidence
like i don't know you're making sense no you can do an experiment yourself
like uh snipers you know you can do those
experiments and with the scientific method and
do all that a hypothesis is not evidence like just a
theory einstein was famous for that me observing the sun
for 24 hours in the north pole is not a hypothesis
that matches the flat earth prediction why wouldn't that work on a flat earth
because it's also observed on the south pole the south okay so
you can literally so that was what i shifted over to a totally different
claim that's the it's the same if you have if you have half of the year
where you can have total sunlight in the north pole and then the other half of
the year you have total sunlight in the south pole
that's proof of two different things the sphere and the tilt of the earth
because the only reason you have the same the sunlight
is because since the globe is tilted towards the sun
while it's rotating it still has daylight
but this south pole doesn't because it's turned away from
the the sun whereas when you're on the other side
the south pole is now getting 24 daylight 24 hours and the north pole does not
have 24 at LA this is observed by people in Alaska and
even parts of Russia and specifically in the now north
it works on a planet and the south pole no it doesn't work in the south pole
boys let me just interject real quick just to get us back on track
because that is a valid model so i'm just going to ask you this pastor
Shelley let's say that is true like what you
just described i understand that makes sense that is a
possible model i want to hear uh what your opinion is do you think it is
possible that there is another possibility
that explains the phenomenon you described
or does it have to be the tilted globe is that the
only possible answer to that phenomenon you witness
or could it be another one are are you capable of saying that it could be
something else or does it have to be what you just described
well based on those just if we're just isolating just those
simple observations of course that doesn't give us the full model
absolutely not i think it's a combination of multiple evidences
all pieced together that all tell the exact same story
cool great so you can't admit that that like observing something doesn't
solidify your model even if your model does work
well again if i if i see a literal picture of the sphere
if i go out into space and see this picture of the sphere that single proof
would be enough but you've never been in space though but you know so you can't
claim a spatial observation because you've
never been in space that's true i've never been inside the
white house but we run into a wall here we run into a wall because
i've never been to antarctica i'm i don't know what they're there i can't
prove a model but we all have to admit that we either
have to trust nasa's word which is you know some people have a
right to not trust nasa or we have to go to space ourselves or we
can admit we don't know you know that is valid that doesn't make someone stupid
okay let's go let's swing it over to austin austin um
i don't know uh two minutes make an argument and then
pastor shelly will go back and then you know we'll go from there i think we're
really accomplishing something here today fellas the people in my chat are
saying that uh everyone's doing good you know everyone's being respectful the
key is respect man that's it like as long as we're not
yelling each other and saying everyone's stupid and everyone's evil
this is a win-win all right two minutes Austin go ahead
yeah so yeah we see the sun move around us 360 degrees in the north right you
can take trips and cruises to go see it that's
exactly what's expected on a flat earth right because the sun is just moving the
seasons on the fliers as the sun moves in and out
now the exclusivity would come with the south well you can't book
there are millions of videos of the sun doing it in the north there are cruises
you can take can you can you take a cruise to go see
the 24-hour sun in Antarctica no we've actually called and asked if
none of them exist are there millions of videos of that one
no can you freely and privately explore there no you can only go to approved
guided tours i know a former nasa employee that was
stationed there for six months said you never see the sun itself in the sky for
24 hours and he was there during the summer their summer six months so
we would need actual verifiable evidence of that claim obviously i don't believe
in claims about going to space either
because we've caught them faking things and if i if i catch you faking things
and you're a federal government agency your kind of mo is to fake things
why would i you know build my entire world view upon you doing that
what i want to know is how we're shooting radio waves
thousands of miles horizontally over large bodies of water
when the curvature of the earth should block the radio waves
right that means that there is no curvature they're blocking the radio
waves that now falsifies the radius value so
like all these other questions you have wouldn't really matter
so we can level with each other and agree that if we falsified the radius
value it would falsify the entire globe model
and then you can maybe address the way we falsified it
that's the most efficient way to have this conversation not just be like well
how would you explain this how would you explain that
so yeah we we falsify the radius value with
line of sight long distance radio wave propagation
okay well done austin let's us swing it back to the pastor let's see how he
wants to respond to that go ahead you have two
minutes air toss the knees already prove the
radius of the earth and the circumference
uh he didn't need any of these fancy devices to figure that out
but again that's what it's appeal to authority i'm going to start using the
horn okay that's the appeal to authority
fallacy when you're in a debate and you say a
a guy who was dead 2500 years ago already proved all this i don't have to
argue it that's literally a fundamental logic fallacy
go ahead sorry about that history it's called the appeal to authority fallacy
where you just say this guy did it 2500 years ago did you blow the horn when he
appealed to mickelson moray disprove the earth
is moving i'll do it right now there you go okay
okay i'll blow that horn mickelson morley well the difference is
mickelson morley experiment is a famous experiment that can be replicated
so eratosthenes is not a famous experiment that could be replicated
i don't know who i'm arguing with why can't i argue with austin
because i'm setting the tone because you're you're not being very biased
here and and you're not even being fair i apologize that's a complete i apologize
i will take a step back i will take a step back you have to i will not
interrupt again i was just saying that saying eratosthenes did it
is that's no different than the argument that he made with mickelson morley
i didn't bull the horn when you said believing in a flat earth is heresy
okay i've been very generous with the horn that's not ad hominin
it's my it's heresy it's heresy so you're in a debate with someone that you
believe is a heretic and stupid and crazy and i did not blow that damn horn
that was the poster that i sent to both of you before the show i mean i i didn't
hide that i've preached that i can't i can't go
back and un-preach the things that i preached
i can't un-honk my horn so what the best we can do is i'll give you two minutes
and i'll take a step back go ahead can i just ask austin what was
the first point that you brought up i just want to remind myself
um you just diverted away from the radio waves
so radio waves falsify the radius value and we want to talk about everything
except for the radius value for some reason but that's what always happens
again i i don't know that it matters if if we
focused solely on the radius when we have plenty of other
uh proofs specifically of the spherical earth
or when it comes to um the orbit such as seasons and again there's
there's so many different things that i would love to even just show on the
screen i don't know if we're allowed to do that now
or whatever but when when it comes to observing
things in antarctica it was brought up multiple times that you can't go there
you can't see it there there are people that have circled
antarctica they took a voyage from the southern tip of
south africa and they circled the entire antarctica and then sailed down into
they circle it or did they orbit did they orbit i'm just kidding go ahead
so they circled it and so uh specifically there's
pictures video there's all the different information about that specific event so
again all all their side's gonna say is that this is just fake everything's fake
everybody's an actor all of it cgi all but it's it's just
like there's so many people that are physically disproving their
claims there's a guy who doesn't have anything to do with this debate
who literally filmed a 360 view of antarctica
and you can watch the sun go around and a 360 view
which would instantly disprove their claim so
there's plenty of evidences there's plenty of people that have
pointed this out it's just they want to ignore that evidence
okay that's a valid point austin how do you respond to the fact that there are
people who have recorded a 24-hour sun
and they've traveled the circumference of antarctica and they put it online
and they appear to be unbiased what say you two minutes
go ahead yeah so uh i actually know all about
you have to look all into that trip and just map it on a plain earth
it's not impossible on a plain earth that they sailed in the south
it's not like they could see antarctica the entire time that's not how it worked
right so they assume the earth's a sphere
and they sail there and actually if you look at the trips that do that
uh the boats can max out of like 30 knots
and they're in races but for some reason when they're in the south they're
going four knots and that would make perfect sense on a
flat earth as the distance is much greater
right and so they're traveling further and they're determining their speed
based on distance over time assuming it's shorter so if you actually look
deeper into those those paths it's not it's actually kind of
leans towards the flat earth position the 24 hour sun i've always been very
honest about that you're right if it's exactly the same as it is in the north
that matches the globe perfectly and not not a flat earth okay but then they
posted this video out there and they everyone went around oh
flat earth's over we dissected it and saw that they looped it around
actually they they added the beginning to the end and looped it back around
and we pointed that out and everyone gaslit us they didn't fake that they
ended up coming out and admitting yes we faked it
because we didn't have the full 24 hours that were the most popular one with a
little watch on the ground where they do it
go around they got clouds in the sky with the mountains was admittedly faked
and then we caught them faking another one and there's only a couple that have
ever been put there all the government cameras that are out there
none of them get 24 hours sun in their video they have to shut it down conveniently eight
hours a day so there's a there's actually a pretty gross lack of evidence for that.
Okay I will head back a little bit one thing a compelling argument against Flat Earth is how
many people would have to be in on it so all the industries all the people all the people doing
these videos all the people doing the cameras how would that be managed if they are intentionally
deceiving because that is something that is a valid point so if you have Pastor Shelley saying
that you have people that go there and do this stuff and then the answer is they admit they lied
or they're caught lying when that number gets big enough how do they all how are that many people
lying and deceiving and how is that managed and that just seems like a nightmare to manage
so austin what say you uh or no we have to uh that's just a follow-up then i'll kick it back
but i'm trying to be unbiased that's a it's a valid thing uh how are they faking this how
are they deceiving how would how would so many people be in on it yeah so most people believe
the earth's a glue almost no one's in on it like yeah if if there wasn't a really large
amount of people lying it would wouldn't be feasible it would remain a lie right someone
would spill the beans or whatever which actually some astronauts even have come out and said we've
never been to space no one's going to space they're lying and the earth's flat literal former
soviet astronauts but um the government right they have they have compartmentalization and nda
so when it comes to nasa i know nasa employees they don't know anything they just do their job
the amount of people that would actually have to be lying about this is a very small amount
no one doing the satellites would have to be lying because they put it up they assume that
the earth's a globe when actually it's just a transform over a plane etc etc and we can get
into all the technicalities which is what is needed to fully understand it but long story short
if i found adoption papers and said look man turns out that those aren't really my parents
and i came told you my whole life's a lie i was adopted and then you say but wait is that is
everyone in the church in it is everyone on the school and on it i'd be like no man they believe
that those are my parents most people just think there's a globe most scientists try to explain it
within that assumption um the amount of people that would have to lie are very very small amounts
of people antarctica is very restricted and then you get into the government compartmentalization
astronauts sign ndas all former military intel etc so um it's incredibly feasible that just a
few people in the government with ndas would lie about the small little job that they do almost
everyone else just believes the lie that pushes it okay thank you we're gonna send it back to
pastor shell you have two minutes what say you so the countries that claim that they went to the
moon is the united states russia china india japan israel esa luxembourg south korea italy uae mexico
and pakistan so they would all have to be in on the scam 90 countries have satellites at least
one person within their government would have to know that you have nasa you have space x
red bull actually had a guy jump from space and they have videos of the of the globe you have
dude perfect literally sent kobe cotton up into space and you have the video i can play the video
right now and they even ask him and he clearly says that the earth is not flat it's round
additionally you have many companies making spacecrafts satellite companies airline companies
people have traveled to antarctica scientists physicists and astronomers who they're i mean how
can you be a physicist that's studying the orbit the tilt and the rotation of the earth regularly
and you're not even considering the fact that these are lies or something or that it's flat
i mean it's really just absurd to say the least to think how many people are not even questioning
their own reality and somehow austin or other people just they have this truth that none of
these people care about i mean to me it seems like you're attacking all these people as if
they're just brain dead idiots because i just understand how i could be studying those models
with all of like that's my career literally and i don't get it he brought up this adoption paper
but here's the thing all you would need is one person one of these satellites one of these
individuals go up and take a picture of the of the earth being flat and then okay maybe you have
some evidence you don't have any of this specifically when i'm sorry i'm gonna do a
quick follow-up pastor shali do you believe that the climate change models are true i think it's
theoretically possible that there might be a slight elevation or or decrease in the temperature
globally but that it's insignificant and that all of the propaganda attached to it's a lie so do you
think all of the countries that let me just say something when it's live sorry guys our internet
just temporarily uh went down but we're gonna try and bring them back on the show and keep it going
sorry for the disruption let me message them sorry the internet just like died on us i don't know
can you guys both hear us again yeah are you there wait sorry our router just like died for some
stupid minute i apologize no worries i think this is going quite well i'm enjoying it are you guys
all having fun any criticisms for me am i am i being biased you can be honest yeah at times
there's been some inconsistencies but i i think you know again if austin's up for it i wouldn't
mind going a little bit back and forth instead of just kind of a force two minute but it's either
way yeah yeah we can totally do that i just want to the follow-up was on uh was on uh climate change
models and how many countries have to be in on it because the point you made was about that
and also all the other parts of the bible because uh you've made the claim that it's heresy to
believe the earth is flat and then you have you know job 38 about uh you know that we're on a
seal of clay and all that stuff i was wondering what your comments are with all the uh descriptions
of the earth in the bible that are not a ball and is it a debate like is it a debatable thing or is
this uh i'd love to talk about any of those oh go ahead i'm not an expert on any of this stuff i'm
a bible almost illiterate i'm just uh following up with uh job 38 about uh that were basically on a
like a seal of clay like how does that fit with uh yeah i don't know if you can if my production
can pull up that graphic too but there's this chart i've seen and it says graphic too it says
like the flat earth bible verses and it says it's like 200 different references and they kind of
appealed all these different things it's pretty small you might zoom in just so they can at least
see something scroll up maybe a little bit but you know i think what you're bringing up this is
job 38 13 verse 14 this clay under a ring seal and i've heard that being brought up the problem
is that's just not number one that's not what the king james says i don't even know what version
that would even potentially appeal to and even additionally the second reference here is a 40
verse 22 is bringing up the dead sea scrolls the dead sea scrolls doesn't say disc it says circle
so i think that there's probably some misinformation when it comes to verses and how they fit to this
particular model but we can pull up king james says it is turned as clay to the seal and they
stand as a garment yeah so in job 38 verse number 13 i want to make sure that's 14 i think i think
it's first 14 okay so it's in verse 13 it says that it might take hold of the ends of the earth
that the wicked might be shaken out of it it is turned as clay to the seal and they shall stand
as a garment now in verse 14 it says as clay the word as is an indication in the modern english
language of a metaphor so specifically it's not bringing up something that's literal here
and clay of course but i mean the earth isn't literally but that but the yeah yeah the metaphor
is that it's a seal the clay but the shape it would be a uh you know a circular plane well clay
can be formed into any shape you can have around you could have a spherical pot so clay is just
simply going around the and again lack my hands you know what around the ring that's spinning
specifically but you can shape that clay however you want it doesn't prove but a seal a seal is
never a ball and how do you have the uh an end on a ball like how the ends of the earth the corners
of the earth sure these things are the and i'm no expert yeah not in a religious debate but like
those words if you're going to take hoog and the circle thing sure there's no end on a ball and
then the metaphor of a seal is a seal is never a ball and so you know is it a debate is it an
opinion or is it heresy to believe that that is uh that that is a reference to a not a ball well
again my view of heresy is just something that's wrong but when it comes to okay cool oh that's
good when it comes to specifically what you're bringing up about the end of the earth if we look
at if we go to the coast that's the end of florida or that's the end of the continent right so when
we're talking about earth earth can mean a few different things earth could be the entire planet
earth could be just the dry land it's described in genesis chapter one or earth could refer to
the people and i think a lot of times the argument is uh missed because people are attributing the
wrong definition for the word earth when it's used so when we talk about the ends of the earth
we're talking about the corners and the edges of dry land as they basically end for a continent
so of course the end and we could look up tons of references of ends of the earth in the bible and
this is very clear talking about bringing people from the ends of the earth on on the most of these
flat earth models that i've seen they don't believe people live in the ends of the earth
but the bible's clear that people do live in the ends of the earth because we're talking about the
edges of the coastline we're not talking about the planet itself as a shape because of course
i agree there's no end of a globe or a sphere but the bible doesn't yeah can i say a couple
things about this so earth does mean land right like and i mean it's actually very profound for
cosmology because what it's saying is he rose the land up out of the water and that we're
surrounded by water everywhere directly antithetical to what they're claiming but just to clarify
right 38 14 specifically says the earth takes shape like clay pressed under a sill and then
its features stand out like garments it's just like how they would seal letters kings would seal
letters and they would put their clay stamp it down seal the letter with their emblem or their
crest it's very specifically saying that it takes shape like that and it says there's waters above
it says there's a firmament it says that it's like molten looking glass it says many things
this is basically to say that it's heretical would be saying that the prophets were heretics
the prophets clearly thought that hebrew cosmology was true um you know this this new idea that like
somehow the hebrew people didn't think that the earth was a stationary plane with a ferment over
top of it with water above it has only somehow become a thing as an anti-flat earth type of push
but most people would say well yeah that's what they thought but they wrote from what they thought
right at the time what their limited understanding at the time they wrote through that lens but for
sure messiah came the hebrew people thought this was what the scriptures said because it does say
that right i mean can i ask what you mean when you say firmament what do you mean when you say
firmament what do you believe that is yeah it says the firmament it says it's stretched out over top
of the earth like clay or like um like a tent and where grasshopper and habits within it and it comes
from rakia beaten out strong as bronze and it's described as molten looking glass so it's described
as physically holding back water do you believe the firmament is a physical thing like is it a
glass dome or i'm just curious what your opinion is i think there is something physical containing
the earth yes i don't know what it is that what you call the firmament yes okay so in genesis
chapter number one when the bible says that the birds fly in the open firmament what is that it
actually says upon the open like the open face of the firmament so it actually yeah the actual words
that the translation comes from tells you that they're flying upon the face of the firmament
and we know that the birds are in the lower heaven described in the scripture right so there's layers
up and the birds fly in this lower layer called heaven there are multiple layers of heaven and
there it's all within the firmament it says it flies upon the face of it which makes sense you
look up you see the birds the firmament would be behind it um well i want to clarify because in
genesis 120 it doesn't say that it says the fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament
of heaven so the king james is saying that they fly in the open firmament of heaven yeah i don't
i'm not one of these people that think that the people that wrote kjv were somehow the the
arbiters of truth the original word specifically says face of course when you bring up that these
people define it a certain way they believe the earth was a globe that flies through space
of course they're going to define the term to a certain way i'm not even i don't even argue about
i don't even want to argue too much about the scriptural part of it i i'm just going to say
my stance is very clear it's blatantly that the earth is stationary immovable and fixed it has
pillars as a firmament separating the heavenly waters from the earthy waters almost every scholar
will agree i'm not appealing to them every scholar would agree with that that hebrew cosmology was
that the earth is an enclosed immovable plane absolutely can i can i show just some pictures
of of historical bibles because frankly speaking from the 13th 14th 15th 16th 17th 18th and 19th
century we have drawings and bibles from all of these centuries showing the spherical earth
so what you're saying is just to me just insane that's not what i'm saying is all of those people
would have told you yeah but the hebrew writers back then they were riding through the lens of
what they knew at the time and they thought they were taking genesis literal to mean that there
were literally waters above us that were being held back by a literal firmament and that they
windows of a firmament literally opened up and opened up waters and that the earth was
immovable and fixed who are you quoting saying i mean because the the bible is talking about
clouds when it talks about the firmament and you can you can test you can you can actually compare
proverbs chapter number eight with genesis chapter number one and it's clear that in day
two of creation god created the atmosphere which is what's the firmament firmament just means space
or expanse and it's just talking about how the waters are separated where clouds were up above
the firmament and there's simply the oceans down below so you have waters below the firmament you
have waters above the firmament and the birds fly in between the clouds which is in the open
firmament that's what the bible teaches that's what everybody that i've seen write about and
talk about have seen and that's what the pictures that i could show right now i could literally show
tons of pictures of people with the spherical earth in bibles from the 13th 14 15 16 17 18th
century so are all of those okay like i said those people not believing the spherical earth
you're straw manning what i said i didn't say i didn't believe in a spherical earth
okay what i said was that the scriptures specifically say that it's not a spinning
spherical earth and that the people wait i want to clarify you're saying you believe the earth
is a sphere what's up you believe the earth is a sphere what no why would i why would i believe
there's a sphere and debate that it's not a sphere i thought okay i feel like we're getting a little
off track here boys let's just uh and i'm not taking over i'm just going to reset a little bit
um pastor shelly has made a lot of points on aristoteles and i've not heard austin address
that yet austin would you like to if you're are you familiar with the experiment can you explain it
how did aristoteles prove that we are on a ball earth i don't want to let you off the hook on
that one yeah so that is like the wikipedia story of how this was all settled but um when i brought
up the falsification of the radius value he said uh aristoteles proved the radius value a long time
ago the way he supposedly did this because there's only secondary documentation and the two
documents actually contradict each other with different stories that doesn't really matter
because you can go do it now anyway um you put sticks in the ground he used wells and then
there's a different story that they use sticks doesn't matter and then the shadow that's cast
from the sun you can take those shadows the angles at which the shadows are cast and you
can do the math you can use spherical geometry to get a circumference and of course you get the
radius from that now obviously in order to do that you must use spherical geometry so you have
to assume the earth's a sphere and you also have to assume that the the light rays are parallel
right because so the sun has to be super distant where the light rays are parallel
and then the earth is a sphere to even begin to do the math to figure it out
also admittedly right that if you can't prove it unless you have many many other data points
is what the mainstream will tell you and he only used two so like Neil deGrasse Tyson and
just to point out how accepted it is in the mainstream we'll tell you obviously with two
set of shadows it works perfectly fine on a flat earth with a local light source which is true
in fact we've actually replicated it with like a hundred different uh shadows so long story short
he assumed that the the sun was super far away and assumed there were parallel light rays and
then assumed that the earth was a sphere to come up with the value which of course doesn't doesn't
prove it because you can explain the same exact observations on a flat earth so i don't even know
why they but yeah that's that's just what like the mainstream story is so yeah and didn't you
believe that the sun was one million miles away not 93 million yeah or or yeah it's just super
far away i didn't even really make it specifically pastor shelly do you believe in mainstream space
like trillions of stars light years away nuclear explosions do you believe in like the mainstream
space or a different type of space i just would like to know what you believe as far as what the
stars are how far away are they stuff like that i'm sure that when it comes to our solar system
specifically i probably agree with most mainstream views is what's taught in public school in college
and accepted when it comes to distant stars i guess i guess i'm somewhat skeptical of the
fact that we could know for sure exactly how far those stars are but i'm not like it doesn't really
um change anything for me if they truly are as far as they claim they are but um you know i don't i
think it's impossible to know for sure exactly how far these if it's something a thousand light years
away or even much further what they claim like it's pretty much improvable in my opinion we can only
make hypotheses and predictions and of course they do those and they seem to match what they
suggest so it is plausible in my mind but i'm not going to sit here and say that it's for sure
okay uh pastor shelly is there any topic you want to explore more that uh you want to uh get back
into i know i i pulled this out because just felt like the bickering uh you know i was just trying
to refocus with with the greek guy uh is there anything biblically you want to talk about and
and go back and forth with austin well you know i do want to bring up a couple other things that
we haven't brought up just just some some newer things but i do want to bring up the idea of uh
solar eclipses specifically and and if possible can i bring up graphic 17 just because we recently
had a solar eclipse in my part of the country i don't know where you guys are located but in
the dows forward area we literally experienced a solar eclipse and they were able to tell us
exactly when it was going to come they gave us the exact minute marker they could tell us and
you can even see one of those plotted down there these solar eclipses are actually going in all
kinds of different directions and for most flat earth views or models that i've seen they kind
of just have like a child's mobile where the the moon just kind of going this circular pattern
well that wouldn't fit these solar eclipses nor does the flat earth model give you any prediction
as to tell you when these solar eclipses are going to happen whereas the heliocentric model
literally does give you these predictions and they're accurate so to me that's not something
that we just like made up i really did see the solar eclipse these pathways really do match
realities things that we've observed and seen and they do fit with the heliocentric model
so i'm just curious from austin's perspective you know what he would he would say about the solar
and lunar eclipses that we observe that's about uh pastor shai brings up a valid point that the
globe model can make accurate predictions over time which is a good point and uh austin what is
your answer as far as their ability to predict uh the eclipses go ahead what say you yeah just real
quick i just want to say i i just looked that up it says the earth in the open expanse of space
says upon the face of the firmament like i said everyone can look that up but um eclipses that
the prediction of eclipses aren't exclusive to anything to do with the globe right it's not
exclusive to the earth being a sphere nor of the earth moving around the sun um it comes back funny
enough in the about Babylonians the Chaldeans like 2500 bc of the sterile cycle that was built upon
before that you can actually go to adl.place that's the anti-disinformation league so it's
the good adl and you'll find all of this mapped out on a plane we can perfectly map out exactly
when it's going to happen on a plane earth and the sun and the moon they have their specific cycles
they even change like relative positions throughout time and it's just a cycle that repeats and in
both situations your prediction gets more and more accurate the closer it gets to the time of the
eclipse so actually if you paid attention they changed the path or the locations of the path of
the eclipse like three or four times in the weeks leading up to the eclipse even in like the mainstream
perfect model and all this stuff right because it isn't about the model it's about the sun and
moon they have a cycle that there's an eclipse cycle that we can narrow down over the course
of thousands of years and so yeah all of that can like exactly when the eclipse will be all that is
exactly the same regardless of if you think the earth's a globe or flat or whether if you think
it's moving or it's not moving use a specific observational pieces of data that aren't exclusive
to either one of them so it's a misnomer everyone can go to the adl.place and you can see it all
mapped out and predicted so is that well that's quite a claim uh let me just do a real quick
follow-up uh that's quite a claim and i'd love to be able to look that up like i did definitions
because if they really did change because i think a globe argument is their predictive ability like
it does appear that they have this model that can make accurate predictions over time and um i have
no idea i can't verify this right now if anyone can did they actually change uh the eclipse stuff
over the weeks i i can't validate or not validate anyway go ahead faster i'm sorry well they
definitely update things within minutes they say like oh we can predict things within five minutes
or so and then as we get closer and closer they can narrow it down all the way to seconds so
there is a little bit of a shift but they knew the specific date and around the approximate time
way long ago in fact there are charts that can show you specific solar eclipses are going to
happen decades from now not not just like the next 10 minutes or two weeks they can tell you exactly
but from austin's viewpoint i mean is is nasa using y'all's flat earth model to make these
predictions and or or they write and they're using i mean are they just faking it they're just making
up this heliocentric model for these predictions like i'm just kind of curious how they're coming
to these inclusions because you say all these things are faked by them and they're lying about
all this stuff but they are making accurate predictions about these eclipses and it wasn't
even nasa it's not like nasa the first one to predict these eclipses these eclipses were
predicted in the 1600s 1700s 1800s i mean we've already known these cycles in these patterns and
they're not subscribing to a flat earth model specifically so i want to know are the people
that are making these predictions are they using your your your flat earth model a geocentric model
or are they using the heliocentric model yeah they literally use the geocentric model so they
use what's called an earth centered earth fixed coordinate system because the observations happen
from the earth and no they weren't just done in 1600s like i said they were done in 2500 bc by
the caldeans it's called the cerro cycle and they were a flat earth geocentric civilization
it isn't exclusive to either one they've reverse engineered the globe from what we see in the sky
well like i said uh the predictions aren't exclusive to any belief and also just to make
sure you guys know what i'm saying the date is pretty well known to get to more narrow of exactly
when in that day it'll happen you have to get closer to the actual time because of the periodicity
of the sun and the moon over time i'm talking about they changed the location so like the the
path of totality they were actually narrowing it down and moving it over by a few miles over
leading up to that moment um and this was just well known and accepted in like mainstream articles
you could look it up now it wasn't it wasn't like hundreds of miles but my point is just this idea
is that there's a specific sphere with a specific size and we know where everything is and we're
going to be able to tell you where the eclipse is that isn't how it works the eclipse is based on
the periodicity of the sun and the moon it's been mapped out since 2500 bc it doesn't have anything
to do with the earth being a globe and in fact they use a geocentric coordinate system at nasa
with the saro cycle and actually the guy that does eclipses for nasa for like 20 years is on
the record explaining that they have to use a geocentric coordinate system they do the same
thing with their satellites as well so i know so uh yeah can i clarify ironically the answer
to your question is yes so do you think the e the ecf is accurate well no because typically the ecf
is using a sphere right so i don't believe in a sphere but but but the sphere isn't really required
um you know but the point is that even in the current model there's a kinematic and dynamic
equivalence which is just a fancy way of saying either the earth can be stationary in the middle
and we can see everything the way we do or it can be moving and we see everything the way we do
they use the ecf because it's the most convenient and i would say yeah it's it's more accurate
because the earth is in the center i wouldn't i wouldn't believe in the sphere part of course but
so if you look up the eci or the ecf on wikipedia and you just read what they claim about it
specifically in the eci article it'll say that ecf is is fixed in respect to the earth's surface
and its rotation and then rotates with respect to the stars and specifically the ecf model is
using the coordinates of a sphere to calculate these specific items so i think it's it's crazy
to me for you to appeal to the ecf which is using a sphere as its mathematical calculation
and then claiming that somehow that it would be a flat earth i mean that doesn't even that doesn't
even jive if they're making these models based on a sphere and they're accurate i still don't see
from your viewpoint or your world view how they are coming up with these accurate models
it seems like you're cherry picking man i didn't i didn't see that it was you asked me if they use
a geocentric model i said yes actually they do and in fact they use a sterile cycle it doesn't matter
if you think there's a sphere or not it came from a flatter civilization i should explain i answered
your question i didn't say that that was evidence that it's flat i said that it's a geocentric
model but to answer your question succinctly you can do it either on a plane or a globe it's just
what's called a transform so it's just a projection it's a transform and it would be an ellipse over
top of a plane or you would have the circles in different directions around the globe okay so you
can transform that just like you can transform uh satellite trajectories and then you just have all
of the basically the flower of life over top of a plane so what a coincidence a geocentric plane
would have all the planets moving in perfect you know flower of life trajectories same for the sun
and the moon so like i said this is not exclusive evidence either way yeah again i don't okay
now go ahead i don't feel like that answered the question because my question wasn't necessarily
centered around that particular nuance it was it was more on the idea are they using a geocentric
model which again like they're using the word geocentric is is in reference to something right
geocentrism is different than just saying something's geocentric geocentric just meaning
that you're focused on the earth specifically but geocentrism is the idea that the earth is not
moving in the solar system and everything's moving around it those are two different points so when
it comes to your viewpoint just because they use the word geocentric doesn't mean that they don't
believe the earth is moving in fact they the model is based on the earth moving specifically
so the ecf is based on the earth moving and it being a sphere so for me your answer would be
that they actually are using a heliocentric model even though obviously that word is used
twice so i don't think that you're understanding the question that i'm asking all right you're
saying i'm not understanding it but you just made the claim that the earth centered earth fixed
coordinate system is about the earth moving it specifically is not based on the rotation
in the orbit of the earth yes no it's based on a sidereal rotation you believe is in zero this
is a fixed coordinate system and moving around it it didn't transform to a earth centered inertial
frame which tries to begin to make corrections for the spin and it's so bad to have the seasons
taking place every 24 hours okay so the fixed coordinate system is just that and your model
still man is because of relativity everything occurs on the earth as if the earth in a state
of rest from the earth is always going to look like we're stationary so to map everything out
you just treat it like it's stationary as relative sorry you're breaking up Austin your uh your audio
your audio is getting a little clicky uh we'll come back for your point i understand your point
was uh you're making a very good point uh we'll give your audio just a little rest maybe it'll
buffer uh someone in my chat wants the good pastor to uh explain uh compass made a circle
upon the face of the earth and how that can exist on a uh on a on a ball i just want to make sure
i understand are we bringing up the isaiah 40 22 verse again is that what you're saying i don't
know i just someone just asked me to ask you that well i i do want to clarify so the so the earth
let me make sure i'm getting this interview the earth centered earth fixed model is specifically
saying when there's a star that's out here in the distant light even though the earth is spinning
that star like traveling towards the earth doesn't change and so they they calculate where on the
sphere that specific point would be hitting our sphere even though the earth is continually
spinning but that model is specifically based on the rotation of the earth so it so it's a silly
to me to then make some kind of a geocentric argument or geocentrism argument when it comes
to the circle of the earth you know i believe that that means sphere but even if you took it as a
literal circle you know the out outward crust of the earth would be a circle and of course god
doesn't sit in a two-dimensional world he's since in a three-dimensional world and i have a few
pictures um if if we want to show them on the screen real quick but there's a lot of bibles
that literally have jesus christ sitting on the sphere of the earth from the 13th 14th 15th 16th
17th century um we could we could show i think they're around images uh 55 and plus but if you
want to show any of those images you can show all kinds of measurements uh where he's measuring the
the sphere with a compass specifically i think there's one that actually even shows him sitting
yeah go to image uh 80 or 62 image 62 yeah here's him literally sitting on a sphere and again some of
these are you know obviously kind of symbolic or metaphoric in a sense but at the same time they
are believing that the earth was a sphere in genesis chapter number one it shows the compass
which is a reference to provost chapter number eight specifically and so you know to say that
christians have like historically believed in the flat earth would be gaslighting because there's
plenty of evidence to suggest that christians for the last several hundred years have all recognized
the spherical earth they drew pictures of it so you're making a claim that all christians have
recognized the spherical earth for like centuries now that's actually more no i wouldn't say all
because right now there's christians that don't i'm just saying that yeah i'm just saying that
christianity in large uh there's lots of evidences and and proofs of christians believing in a
spherical earth throughout history so why did they arrest galileo for the uh is wits its mic
still using is it working are you back i'll pass it over to you as soon as you're back i can't hear
you yeah no no audio oh no worries um you know because the reference that you know appeal to
consensus is what you're doing i i didn't do it i'm trying to be a nice person but the whole
everybody agrees with me all christianity i mean that's that's not well just because someone
believed it was a sphere doesn't mean it's true i'm not trying to say that exactly that's not an
argument historically the catholic church which uh like arrested and punished people for claiming
it was not a geocentric earth like according to mainstream none of us can know if gallo even
existed i totally get that but you know to make the claim that christianity has always backed uh
the globe heliocentric isn't isn't really uh an argument i mean i i get it i think flat earthers
can be annoying and you know you don't know god unless you're flat earther and everyone's always
been a flat earther i get it bro i'm totally with you on that but that argument there is uh you know
it's not really provable can you hear me now yeah we can hear you yeah yeah word by the way just
clarify i said the prophets say about you made a couple big points one is the observations require
a ball because the movement of the stars when the light comes down it's because of the spinning of
the ball okay you can address that and also address the uh the historical nature of christians all
believing um in the heliocentric model go ahead yeah so to clarify i said the prophets and the
authors of the scriptures uh adhered to hebrew cosmology that's a fact right so to invoke like
1600 interpretation of course you know the globe had started to you know get kind of take over
parts of the earth actually not all of it but so that's all i was saying is that the actual
authors of the scriptures adhered to hebrew cosmology and that's pretty undeniable and
actually not even disputed in the academic world at all um as for i i did kind of address what you
followed up and said and that what you're talking about is called sidereal rotation
and that's the the stars rotating and in your model that the stars look like they're rotating
around us but it's just an illusion because we're rotating making it look like they're moving okay
so they're just using sidereal rotation and the ecf actually treats it like the stars are actually
moving and that the earth is fixed that's why it's called earth centered earth fixed if the
earth is in the center of the universe in any model it can't be moving um because everything's
moving in relation to it the stillman for your model is we just do that because it's simpler
it's easier it's what it looks like from us for us on the earth anyway so we use that coordinate
system so just to clarify that there is nothing exclusive to the earth spinning and again nothing
exclusive to it being a ball you can transform that over to a plane it's just called a transform
and uh it would be ellipses over a plane and it's it's a projection so very simple stuff so
does this does the stars move in the sky what'd you say do we observe the stars moving in the sky
yeah we see the stars move in the sky yeah and you think you think that we don't then your
explanation of the earth centered or fix would make no sense because the earth why earth fix is
saying that it's in the exact same position all the time which makes sense if the earth is actually
rotating so we see the movement but they're saying it's fixed on a specific point of the sphere so
there's a specific a specific point of the sphere that that starlight is hitting all the time but
even though the earth is rotating so we see movement but it's hitting the sun it's hitting the earth at
the exact same point that's why you have an earth center earth fix model you don't even understand
what the model is explaining so you're projecting man i'm not projecting i'm just saying that's what
it's that's the point sorry i just don't even know what you're i mean this is this is i don't
i want to be nice here but in your own model i feel like this is all going great i feel like
this is all going great i'm loving the lack of ad hominem it's creeping up a little bit uh what
do you say we do five minute closing statements we talk about if we learned anything do you guys
want me to take questions from the chat your uh rumble chat or we could take some questions
okay so in the rumble chat i will check out uh the questions in between you know cortisol chasing and
uh and let's do actually let's do three minutes let's do three minute you guys each do a three
minute closing statement if any aspect of the other person's argument changed your opinion
because i think that's always good you know we're always uh learning here in the world
and um i also just personally want to say i think everyone did great uh much love to your
mother i was just trying to make a point of nothing against your mom obviously all right
so since uh who went first Austin went first yeah let's kick things off with pastor Shelley
doing three minutes closing argument if he learned anything or his uh points to reiterate his points
go ahead just being honest i do not feel like i learned um anything new i feel like the arguments
for both sides are pretty well established so i don't think that either side's probably ignorant
of any of the points we were going to make um but i do believe there's thousands of proofs for
a spherical earth or a heliocentric model or when we talk about the tilt of the earth and one of
those is the fact that half the earth is always lit up which is not shown on a a flat earth model
the north pole and the south pole both have seasons with total daylight which is observed
by many different witnesses there's plenty of videos of the sun never setting in the south pole
which would for sure disprove the flat earth view there's an abundance of just witnesses in
general of the spherical earth when we talk about all the astronauts and the space programs and all
the individuals involved with our specific viewpoint there are literal videos and live
streams from the ISS 24/7 where you can literally just watch the spherical earth 24/7 live streams
all the time i guess they'd have to be faking all of that which is thousands of hours of footage
the earth shadow on the moon is super clear you can see this from different vantage points in
different areas and we can see the shape of the spherical earth through the shadow on the moon
from those eclipses the predictions of the solar and lunar models also are compatible with the
heliocentric model the experiments from eratosthenes can still be done today and could still get the
exact same calculations of the circumference of the earth and if he did believe that the earth
was spherical and moving that would just be proof that people already believe that at that time as
well you can sail across the sea nasa has plenty of photos you can go online right now and find
non-fish eye lenses views of the spherical earth i could show you the the images in this the stream
today there's videos from other space programs whether it be dude perfect red bull even space x
has plenty of other images and pictures of the spherical earth the seasons don't make sense on them
on a flat earth model they only make sense on the tilted orbital model when we talk about the path
of the sun we see it going up and down which is the bible describes it doesn't get further away
and come closer additionally there was the bible was literally sent to the moon so the king's
name's bible is actually sent to the moon and in apollo 8 mission they actually read genesis 1 as
soon as they went up into space which i find really fascinating leap years are also another
evidence of the fact of the heliocentric model um construction of large bridges the tops are
actually further away in the bottoms stars are upside down there's races around antarctica the
bible the bible is compatible with these views and i believe it's really just someone denying
a lot of clear evidences when they have a flat earth view i think that there's plenty of evidences
out there and i wish that people would appeal to um true science and what the bible says great and
uh we're also going to take uh questions in the chat and uh you know let's pivot a little bit i
people text me saying they're loving this and we should go a little longer so before we do austin's
closing and we take a couple more uh questions there's one in the chat from dreadmat how do
we see the same constellation six months from now if on a globe you'd be facing 180 degrees
than you are now i don't fully understand the question but uh hopefully you guys do
you want me to go to the next one do you guys get that i think austin's got to get his closing
right we give him opportunity to give closing students so let's do that so austin will give
you three minutes do a nice closing and then we'll do a little more back and forth some questions
i'm getting really good feedback i'm not gonna lie i mean your chat you know people don't love
me some people are saying that i am a real piece of shit but in general i think this is going i
think this is going really well all right austin go ahead three minutes go um so i'm actually gonna
run through some of the stuff you just said because i you know respectfully what always happens is
someone can go google ways we know the earth is not flat and then they'll just kind of repeat
these arguments but what happens is if you look further into each one of them similar to the jq
you'll find out that well when you get more evidence you understand more things so the
iss is not 24/7 it cuts off all the time we've caught them faking tons of things you brought up
other space agencies i actually just saw a video today of the china space agency showing the earth
and it was completely flat horizon completely flat so now all of a sudden i'm guessing we'll
throw china out or it won't count felix bumgartner showed the curve of the earth from he wasn't
anywhere close to space he was only like 180 000 feet up you wouldn't see the curvature of the
earth in your model from there anyway admittedly it was literally a gopro sponsorship shadows of
eclipses actually debunked the globe model because if it was a geometric alignment of three spheres
which is called a scissor g then as the sphere moves in front of the other one and casts a shadow
onto a third spherical object this the shadow actually goes from being a circle to an oval back
to a circle it actually takes a partial s wave you can replicate this basic geometry it's because
the shadow isn't distributed evenly because the surface at the shadows on is curving and part of
it's further away from the other part so you can't even replicate those uh those eclipses with three
spherical objects you would have an s wave shaped shadow so the eclipse is actually debunked as do
selenillion eclipses where the sun and moon are both above the earth during the eclipse there's a
geometric impossibility i covered the eclipse predictions it goes back to 2500 bc it isn't
exclusive to the earth being a globe that's a flat earth civilization we again go to adl.place
you can see everything mapped out um and then eratosthenes you brought that back up but i
explicitly explained that that isn't exclusive to a spherical earth you can do the same thing on a
plain earth if it's a local light source a local sun on a plane you get different angle shadows
as well you have to assume the earth's a sphere assume that there's a distant sun assume the
parallel light rays coming from that sun and then do the math with that assumption uh dude perfect
whenever they supposedly sent these private uh trips up to space they like one of the passengers
came back and said i thought we're going to be high enough to really see like the earth and
everything but we obviously weren't and it's just a it's a glorified um vomit comet basically they
float for like a couple minutes i can go do that in a plane nothing special about that and actually
the bible says the sun goes in and out is actually what it says and so i think i have about 30
seconds yeah so i'll just finish by saying this i know this now this sounds crazy and i get it but
um i can assure you that the people that say that the earth is flat it wasn't because they wanted
to they fought it it was uncomfortable no one was to publicly state it just diligently search out the
truth i don't i have no beef with you if you don't think it but just go look for the evidence you may
be surprised and um we can't just blindly hand our worldview over to people that hate us so i
encourage everyone to look a little further you may be surprised okay so chat i will take your
questions and pastor shelley you've earned it let's take off the ad hominem uh uh cuffs if you want
to talk a little shit let's do it um because that was extremely enjoyable chat ask direct questions
don't get me wrong this framed as a question might so owen moderates about as well as he denies being
a homosexual you see that's that's not a question that and i know some of you guys are like you want
to address the chat why is no one's okay again we're doing a flat earth debate and so if you
have a question for pastor shelly i'm sorry if i said i understand i'm literally retarded i've
been up since like five in the morning um if you have a direct question just put it in the chat
and ask a question this this uh debate is not about me and whether or not i'm secretly a gay
here we go north pole is the center so if anyone has any questions all right so you're saying it's
possible uh what that it's a globe or that i'm secretly a homo that i'm secretly a homo not
possible but i do understand why sometimes people think that i'm really good at the piano and
you know sometimes i dress very oddly all right um what do we got here owen please have austin
explain genesis 120 and the face of the firmament translated as in the open firmament in the kjv
austin go ahead um yeah like i said the kjv is consistently translated with you know certain
biases if you go look at the actual hebrew it says uh like upon the face of the firmament that's what
it says you can go look it up and um you can just use bible hub for that right bible hub go look it
up uh so yeah basically it's saying that you see the birds upon the face of what's up above it
um the firmament so if properly translated it is not what it says in kjv and uh perfectly comports
with the rest of the description which is that there's a physical container over the earth called
the firmament is there a bible pastor would you like to respond and bear in mind ad hominins open
now so don't don't be afraid yeah is there a is there a bible version you would say this is this
is accurate um i read what's called the scriptures version but i i don't think i think men are foul
fallible right i i also don't think you have to get everything perfectly right or the creator hates
you but i use stuff like bible hub i think it's very convenient we have the internet you can go
look at the original languages see all the different translations you know i think that
the greeks septuagint is much more reliable it seems like some jewish people got a hold of
things and changed it and anyway um no i i wouldn't say there's a infallible translation
in english no certainly not do you speak hebrew or greek no but that's well before we get into
that that's for sure we have a really good question here if owen is not a queer why does
he act and dress like one can anyone answer that that is a good question all right does anyone know
if it's pretty good making babies making babies as a cover i guess i just think it's so funny
if you're like so if you're not a homo then what's up with all right does anyone know if it's a sin
to listen to flat earth nonsense i'm pretty sure this falls under thoughts of foolishness
pastor shelly is it a sin to listen to flat earth nonsense well the bible says the thought of
foolishness is a sin so any stupid thought would be a sin and if the earth is a sphere which is my
position then believing it's not would be stupid it would be idiotic and i've preached that many
times over because i don't want people to subscribe to things that are stupid the bible says the simple
believe with every word and i don't want people to believe stupid things i don't want people to
discredit the bible or christianity or conspiracy theories and i i feel like this specific movement
denies a lot of reality and so it is stupid i feel like a lot of people that are flat earthers
usually smoke pot and do a lot of hallucinogenic drugs and it's probably just a result of that
okay citizen lens with a super chat i will put those above the other ones because that means
you're uh you know you're contributing a little bit to uh the pastor's flock
do shelly believe the pictures of the dark side of the moon are real why is the earth so much
larger in frame compared to the moon than the earth photoed from the surface of the moon itself
yeah i know what they're bringing up so specifically there's a picture from i believe apollo 8 mission
where it's simply got these that that iconic half earth view and then it's just kind of showing the
little bit of surface of the moon and then they have a really scaled out framed view where they
show like a much larger earth and moon but again that's just simply perspective because the moon
got a lot bigger as well in that particular frame so it's really there's no problem whatsoever
they're just not understanding perspective or where the picture was taken from obviously if you take
a more zoomed out view the earth is going to get larger okay oh and please have pastor shelly
answer how the earth can be orbiting the sun if the earth was made day one and the sun day four
joshua sun stopped isaiah sun moved backwards why do you think the prophets of the bible did not
say the sun the earth moved uh and they said the sun moved and uh how did the earth revolve around
something that hadn't been created yet what say you i would say the first question that the earth
was not orbiting the sun before it was created so i don't believe that it would have been obviously
and then secondly he's bringing up in joshua where the sun and the moon stood still specifically it
says that the moon was in the valley of ajalon and i of course would have subscribed this as
being a miracle it doesn't matter what model you have it's obviously a miracle because god
even said specifically there was no day like it before or after uh from a spherical heliocentric
viewpoint all god would have had to do was simply just stop the rotation of the earth and the sun
and the moon would have stopped as far as their movement specifically so of course this would be
a miracle if god stopped the rotation of the earth for a 24 hour period of time both the moon and
the sun would have stood still as far as their respective positions to the earth so there's no
problem with that except for obviously it's a miracle there's no way to to describe this
as a natural phenomenon but why do you think they didn't say that the earth stopped spinning
though why would they say the sun stopped well it's an earthbound perspective so everything's
from an earthbound perspective so the sun stopped as far as its circuit around the earth from an
earthbound perspective or a viewpoint um that doesn't it doesn't really matter how you want
to word it it's just from everybody's perspective if i'm in a car and i'm moving and someone's
standing outside of the car i have my perspective in the car and i'm moving towards them and from
their perspective you know they're standing at rest so you know you could look at it from two
different angles if they slam wouldn't they say the car stopped like would they say that tree
stopped moving if you stopped the car you could say it anyway you could say it from either
perspective yeah all right how do you explain i don't know this is true uh this is too but
preston throws in a fiber so he gets a little priority uh even though a lot of people want to
know why i suck so bad how do you explain the phenomenon of star trails and long-term exposure
photographs which show circular patterns centering around the south pole as this directly debunks the
flat earth model austin what say you yeah i explained that earlier it can be replicated with
like a dome and basically just reflecting out you also see crepuscular and anti-crepuscular rays
it takes some explaining but like the sun can set in the west and this is wild and so you'll see the
sun setting in the west and then there will be rays converging on the horizon in the east at the
same time looking like there's a sun like a light source over there that's because that's how our
perspective works it literally has a limit we have a limit in all directions basically we have a dome
of vision and everything towards the edge of that starts to converge and compress and so it's
literally a real thing called crepuscular and anti-crepuscular rays so you can't really deny
that it happens and if that was going to be applied to the sky or top of a plain earth it'd be the
same thing and again when they claim that it's going south actually they use major magnetic
declination corrections on the globe it needs to be directly south that we're seeing it right
but why do we have to correct 150 degrees 80 degrees 90 degrees to claim that we're seeing
it in the south so it's not exclusive to a globe earth i do get that if you believe the directions
corrections are correct you'd be like oh isn't that convenient it matches the globe it doesn't
until you correct the cardinal direction with declination and it can be explained with vision
like corpuscular and anti-corpuscular rays so uh yeah there you go okay any uh any response good
pastor and i'm trying to find more uh yeah that was really really stupid and of course the earth
is orbiting the sun and so that's why you have to make certain adjustments to when you look at
these things but like the commenter said obviously this this the view of these stars in the south
pole totally disproves the flat earth dude the orbit in the sun has nothing to do with magnetic
declination corrections it has to do with the observation of stars which was the what the
question was about so of course we have another solid question we have another question from
bobby ojimbo how do flat earthers explain aqueousiastes 1 6 when it says that wind goes
around the earth towards the south then back to the north who's the question for i'm guessing
austin because it contradicts yeah i think it's for austin yeah yeah so why would that be a
problem i mean all the evidence actually shows that we're basically in a torus field so if you
actually look at the paths of the planets they all make a perfect torus field geometry the flower of
life that we see everywhere and so there would be a central portion that's a vortex right and so you
would have a pattern moving in and out relative to the torus field that's actually what we see
when we map out the magnetic flux data that's what we see with the wind patterns mapped out on the
earth we actually see them all moving around in the vortex motion so that's no problem actually
i would say that the problem is where it says that the winds come from the ends of the earth
and it's the windiest place on the earth and that there are corners where angels have something to
do with the wind would be a problem so people really like to pick and choose where the bible
is literally talking about the earth apparently but anyway the north south thing works perfectly
on a plain earth so here's another one this for the pastor uh bible matrix said he used a compass
to draw a circle upon the face of the earth face equals flat spheres have zero faces and then he
says something mean about the pastor that i'll skip because i'm still following the ad hominem
thing job 3814 is an analogy uh that's not exactly a question but you did super chat
okay pastor can you please name which baptist confession of faith states you must believe in
one another's shape of the earth in order to be baptized you're mistaken about what a heresy is
pope shelly oh that's very aggressive so there's not a confession that subscribes to that so it
it's just a straw man argument um but specifically you know i do have a doctrinal statement
on our website it doesn't bring up the flat earth um i would never throw somebody out of church for
believing in the flat earth um but i i would take offense to anybody teaching false doctrine
um and if someone was teaching a bunch of heresy and told not to teach that then they may be
excommunicated from church but that's the point of church church should be a group of people that
all agree and have similar viewpoints otherwise it's not a church it's just a club or something
so so if someone so if someone was teaching a different view of the clay seal or some of
these other interpretations they would you would kick them out of the church if someone was going
around to all of my church members trying to tell them that they believe the earth is flat and i
i kind of addressed it with them and said hey that's not what we believe here and and you can't you
know go around just teaching people all this stuff and they continue doing that then yes i would
potentially throw them out of church but that wouldn't be limited to that kind of cultish
well if if you don't have any doctrinal integrity then you don't have a church i mean what's the
point of well mac and chex says uh to the pastor god oh that's insulting i'm trying not to be
insulting hey can i say something real quick i just want to know what he thinks about this real quick
because this is like the elephant in the room for me right so you guys call zionism we're we're on
page there adl attacks you you automatically get points for that that means you're probably saying
something based right that's cool what do you think about the fact that the the mmx showed that
the earth wasn't moving and then they bring in einstein who gives jewish mysticism to the world
and says that time slows down and the ruler contracted but looks like it's the same size
trust me bro and it made the earth look like a stationary you it's jewish mysticism saying
that the creator created a giant illusion to deceive us into the earth being stationary do
you actually believe that well to address your earlier part of the question um first of all you
kind of claim that this hebrew cosmology or these jews believe that the earth was flat and then you
get mad about other jews so it seems inconsistent i don't really care about einstein because people
believed in the spherical earth before einstein ever even came into existence um yeah of course i
believe that the modern day jews are the synagogue of satan and that they lie about all kinds of
different things but the vast majority of jews today's probably believe that the earth is a
sphere i would assume that most of them probably would subscribe to that when it comes to all of
the things that einstein said you know i don't really i don't really know it doesn't really
matter to me special relativity is claimed to be evidenced consistently in satellites falling
towards earth so you know i don't have any reason to doubt that claim so perhaps it's true again it
doesn't it doesn't really matter to me because it's infinitesimal measurements that you have
to preach approach the speed of light to really even have a dramatic effect of special relativity
but when it comes to jews it's not like just because someone's ethnically a jew they're wrong
about everything literally that's not what i was saying man that's not what i'm saying is he came
in and he came up with some crazy mystic story and that's why it was dismissed by the germans
and austrians he's copying hindrik lorenz though so like you know it's not even used an ether model
but it didn't work i'm just gonna say i don't i mean you're wrong about a lot of stuff you're
saying you don't special relativity isn't about orbits falling no that's general relativity
special relativity is about straight paths not in the in the presence of gravitational fields i was
just wondering what you think about the fact that your belief has to think that the creator made
it so when we try to measure the earth moving time slows down but looks like it stayed the same
and the measuring apparatus contracted but looks like it stayed the same so that it'll look like
the earth is stationary that's what einstein did after he stole like 30 different pieces of work
and put it together so i didn't know if you and he procreated with his cousin he had a child with
his cousin well just just to be clear you're you just said special relativity with her daughter
you said special relativity has nothing to do with satellites that's provably wrong special
relativity is proved if you just look up the wikipedia article they will tell you time dilation
is experienced by satellites falling to the earth if you just read what they say so whether or not
you i mean it's wikipedia i mean i'm not i'm not saying that it's right i'm just saying that that's
what they say and you just told you so that i'm lying about it it's called atomic clocks they're
cell degradation that has anisotropic degradation because they use magnetic fields to realign the
oscillation right you just research this stuff man just reading like a sentence on wikipedia
what what's a lie you lied because it's satellites are about atomic clocks and what they do is they
have nine billion relativity and time dilation is claimed to be observed on satellites falling
towards earth and the way they claim that atomic clocks okay so when you actually go research it
the first test i was supposedly going to verify it showed that it didn't match relativity's
prediction and it changed in both directions both east and west and they still don't have
an answer for that and they make relativistic transform corrections for it so just reading a
sentence off wikipedia doesn't tell you the truth of the subject i've been forced to get all nerdy
and research a million things because of stuff like that what the story you're saying isn't true
so now i have to go read all the history and say it all the time it's really what i'm just i was
just pointing out what they claim that's all the that's the only point i was making and you're
you basically said that what wikipedia is saying isn't really on wikipedia or something it was it's
just bizarre all right it's all good no i was just saying that wikipedia isn't invalid you're not
like to use wikipedia in school all right mac and jack 33 says to the pastor god states explicitly
in psalm 31 93 1 the earth cannot be moved yet you say we're flying a million miles per hour
through space did god not know his own creation worked until man corrected him that's a question
about psalm 93 1 again these are not my personal opinions i don't even understand what's happening
yeah no that's great so this is on that chart specifically that we brought up psalm 93 verse 1
and it says in the king james the lord reigneth he is clothed with majesty the lord is clothed
with strength wherewith he hath girded himself the world also established that it cannot be moved
so in psalm 93 verse 1 it says the world and another one of if you pull up that chart if you
see the very next psalm they have in reference is psalm 96 verse 10 and psalm 96 verse 10
clarifies this because it says say among the heathen that the lord reigneth the world also
shall be established that it shall not be moved he shall judge the people righteously and if you
skip down to verse 13 it says before the lord for he cometh for he cometh to judge the earth he shall
judge the world with righteousness and the people with his truth so of course when the bible says
for god so loved the world it's not talking about the planet it's talking about the people
so many times these references are very clearly talking about the people of the earth the people
of the world or just people in general and it clarifies in the psalm specifically so yes i do
believe this and the bible talks about the world fearing the earth fearing that's not talking about
the planet fearing that's talking about these people specifically so people are just taking
the wrong interpretation of these particular verses and then claiming that i'm somehow ignorant of
them but if you actually compare scripture with scripture and you look at it it's just talking
about the people there's no problem here and specifically the earth you know moving there's
plenty of verses that literally say that the earth is moving there are verses that literally
say the the earth moved exceedingly so these people are cherry picking verses and when we
actually look up other references the bible talks about it like earthquakes though is it like
earthquakes they're moving or is it like spinning both well it's not talking about it spinning i'm
not going to i wouldn't say that there's a verse that i could point to that says that specifically
but i'm just saying they're cherry picking verses that claim it never moves in any capacity whereas
the the bible does bring up the fact that the earth moves and when there's the great white
throne judgment the bible says that the heaven and the earth fly away so you know there's plenty of
evidence from its previous stationary place well again i'm not going to sit here and say that
let's move let's move on let's move on we got more rife real rife technology this is this is big
austin the lgbt supports a globe earth model in your opinion does that make pastor shelley a gay
it's a pretty compelling argument i'll have to uh think about it for a second all day yeah so what's
your what's your call on that one i mean sounds pretty i think you made a lot of babies too right
you got you got a bunch of children right i have six yeah he's got a family congratulations man
you're you're crushing in that sense so i'm all for it well okay does the pastor have the
as much as oh and benjamin is just kind of a prick at the beginning of the show we do have a
lot of people uh watching so thank you for you know i i guess uh being a prick or whatever it is
that's caused people to watch the show well you got to admit i haven't been a prick during that
like i was getting a little intense in the beginning i apologize if i was too intense i
was just really trying to have a productive debate and i think it kind of paid off a little and you
know i feel like we're having a good time right yeah i just wanted to make fun of uh flat earthers
during the debate but i i see the point in just no now you can now now it's open of course if we
if you don't think it's funny that like the flat earthers always know way more about everything
i've never experienced that in fact most of the flat earthers i've met i've been some of those
wicked evil people i've ever met in my life they're criminals they steal they do drugs like i'm not
saying that that's representative of all flat earthers because that would be an unfair characteristic
but i am saying that the people that i know in my personal life they're some of the worst people
i've ever met not saying that 90 percent of the most evil people i've ever met all were globers
sure that wasn't my point i said that the flat earthers are way more informed can you admit that
we research way more of this stuff and isn't it interesting that there's one side that researched
a lot of it and then didn't want to let go of the globe and get made fun of and they kind of had to
do so once they really research and then the other side just assumes that they're stupid mocks them
ridicules them but doesn't look into it don't you think that's a weird dynamic no because i i find
that most people that are flat earthers do not research and they deny reality and they're
delusional so like i've met a flat earther or there's a flat earther that was a pastor
he said that he understood the truth about this and then he ended up claiming that he's literally
jesus christ and his name's tyler doka you can go look at his website right now he literally claims
he's jesus christ so i i have not uh found that these flat earthers research well understand
reality or the world we live in i think that it's a strong delusion and a punishment for being
gullible okay everyone should watch the principle and learn about what's going on that's all i'm
saying all right headstrong says does the pastor have the authority to deem things outside the
confession of faith heretical what about deeming things within the confession of faith heretical
well again i believe in a pastor-led church so i do believe that the pastor has authority otherwise
the the title's meaningless that doesn't mean that the church isn't going to hold the pastor
accountable for his viewpoints or their agreed upon creed or confession i mean generally speaking
my church subscribes to and agrees with my doctrinal statement otherwise they wouldn't be there
and if i stepped outside of that if i actually had austin's view on the bible they would throw me out
literally because i don't adhere to the king james bible or the word of god or the inspiration of
scripture so you know it's not like it's just my personal opinion that people are adhering to we
all have an agreed upon viewpoint that's what a church is it's not people of certain ethnicity
or five minutes away from their house it's people that all have the exact same world view
and opinion of scripture and we have a core doctrinal statement that we all subscribe to
so you know it's just a bunch of straw men to assume like oh whatever pastor shelley's opinion
is people are going to do that if i changed my viewpoint if i became a flat earther or said that
i'm sure half my church would leave immediately if not most all of it if i denied so you definitely
don't have any emotional bias in this at all well i that would be silly to say that i don't hold
unpopular opinions i mean i've said lots i preached against flat earth and lots of people from my
church and i specifically preach plenty of things that cause protests um all lawsuits we've been
evicted i've been i'm probably the most cancelled person that i even know uh i'm on a credit card
blacklist would just be one step too far don't you agree like it's i don't care i would i would
preach flat earth if it was true i don't really care i have no person i'm going to give uh i'm
going to give pastor shelly a little props i'm going to give pastor shelly a little props from
my perspective uh he does seem to believe it doesn't seem like he's lying and i do understand
people that don't want to uh like bicker a ton in church like uh our homeschool group just doesn't
debate a ton of stuff and i love that so it's not i'm not just going to immediately say that
there's something wrong with that i'm just no i agree with that i agree with that but you know
you're pretty aggressive against flat earthers that's the difference right like just saying oh
let's not talk about it's a little different well i'm talking about it i agree with the general
sentiment what i'm talking about it right now yeah yeah it's all good it's okay you are obviously
quite aggressive sure i'm not i'm definitely very aggressive and i'm very hostile towards that view
but but here's the thing i don't want people to believe stupid things like i don't want people to
get covid shots i don't want people to vaccinate their children i don't want people to commit
abortion i don't want people to think that men can turn into women like i'm going to be hostile
towards things that i think are not true because i care about this is what i think the same thing
you believe that everything in the world is backwards that the creator made this place
to trick you where everything's the opposite of what we experience and then you probably don't
even know right that mainstream astronomy and astrophysicists will tell you that the earth
could be in the center of the universe and there's a kinematic and dynamic equivalence and you can
never disprove it we just don't like that idea of being special and i could quote every mainstream
most famous physicist ever knows that but the general public doesn't know that right you don't
know that you probably think that's not true i must be wrong the earth can be in the center
and special and they're lying and so i would say i think that has significant implications
right like if you think everything's backwards that's how that's how they did covid they're
like no the air that keeps you alive is going to kill you and even though people are healthy they're
sick and when you can't trust your senses and find the truth yourself you have to turn to authority
and you become enslaved so i you know i think that's the reason that this is pretty important
i don't feel the amish potato i mean when it comes to the biblical viewpoint i don't think god's
tricking us at all the bible is clear that the sun moon and stars were made for the seasons and
for the times and it's clear that's what we get our calendar from the year is from a orbit of the
earth around the sun we have a day because of the rotation of the earth we have a month generally
speaking because of the moon's orbit and that's how the original hebrew calendar was calculated
and on a flat earth model none of those things even exist anymore there's it's arbitrary what's
a year or a day and we of course get the week from the creation week the seven days so all of our
calendar has been based on those specific cosmological viewpoints god is not tricking
anyone you can see the sun rise in the east and set in the west which is telling you either one
of two things either a we're spinning or b that's spinning around us but if the sun were moving
around us in that way the sides of the earth would not get this daylight that we observe
plus you'd have things breaking the speed of light considering how far that they are away
and so you know it's there's no trick here it's really simple it's really easy to understand
that the bible and this viewpoint heliocentrism or the spherical earth are compatible with scripture
and i wish that people would subscribe to the king james bible because i believe it's word perfect
it's god's word he gave it to us and it doesn't have any mistakes and if you read it clearly it's
not going to lead you to that conclusion yeah okay citizen lens citizen lens says does the
pastor believe that photos of the globe earth taken from space are real was the moon landing
broadcast live it was one of his first points so yeah do you believe that the moon landing was
broadcast live and do you believe in the photos uh taken by nasa from space i do believe that
we went to the moon i believe that the vast majority of photos from space are very likely
true and legitimate um they do have raw photos you can go to the nasa's website right now and
you can look at lens images that are not fisheye lens lemons fisheye lens uh viewpoint they're raw
photos they show the sphere and you know again i i at one point seriously considered the the moon
landing being fake because in seventh grade specifically our science teacher did not believe
that the moon landing was real and he made us watch a documentary exposing the the moon landing
is being faked and i watched the whole thing and i just came to the conclusion that their evidence
was not legitimate and when i looked at the other side what they had to point to it seemed very
reasonable logical and plausible that the the moon landing was legitimate plus you can go to a museum
in houston right now and they have a whole exhibit of how they took the bible to the moon specifically
and the astronauts work most of them were christians a lot of them were christians
and they wanted to bring the bible onto the moon and they specifically even read the bible on live
broadcast the apollo 8 read genesis chapter number one when they were in orbit and when
they could see the earth from their viewpoint so you know i believe that all that is legitimate
and true we could listen to the audio broadcast right now this just got way worse i can i can
this got way worse you believe in the moon landing bro like come on bro you can debunk
what what do you even believe in the moon like what is the moon i want to know who i believe in
is i believe in the people that are asking questions okay here we go fair enough yeah
preston taylor 1611 says flat earth is so stupid it causes people with brains to reject the gospel
because they think the bible teaches flat earth and it does not that's why we're hostile and
aggressive it's damning what say you austin yeah i mean uh in reality to believe that the bible
is true and that the earth is is a globe right you have to say that the biblical descriptions
are figurative or metaphorical and you could say the same thing in any scenario right i mean
that's what's required literally unless you twist what it says but actually what happens bro is tons
of atheists discover that the earth's actually in the center of the universe and that we were
grossly lied to about it and all the physicists and national physicists know about it and then
they're like wait a minute this changes everything and then they re-examine the bible as as
potentially viable again because there is no denying a creator if the earth in the center of the
universe and then they're like wait the scriptures are giving us a lot of descriptions and now we
discovered that the earth is now we thought it was it's brought way more people to the scriptures
than it's turned away from the scriptures that's a very wild argument but anyway that's my response.
Pastor would you like to respond? Yeah again I think that when I meet people that are flat
earthers they're not they don't care about the bible they don't care about it being preserved
they don't go soul winning they usually don't take church attendance very seriously
you know I'm dedicated to going to church reading the bible memorizing it studying it I go out soul
winning and try to evangelize people with the gospel and most flat earthers the only thing they
want to ever talk about is the shape of the earth um well you just you did admit you wouldn't let
them in though so I didn't say that I said that I just wouldn't let someone go around evangelizing
that theory to every single person or just saying their opinion about it well they can have an
opinion there's a difference between expressing your opinion and going around teaching people
like so if someone came in so someone said like hey do you believe the earth is flat and they said
yeah I do I'm not going to throw them out of church but if they're like trying to take it to
their house and teaching it secretly and trying to go against the church like it wouldn't matter
what doctrine it was it just wouldn't be healthy for a church specifically a church needs to have
you're saying they couldn't go tell people outside of the church that is so crazy they couldn't be
taking people to to a side or into their house and trying to teach against the church because
then there's no point in going to our church like if you don't have any if you don't have any kind
of consensus um as far as like what you guys believe like it doesn't make sense like if i
believe the king james bible is the bible we should use but people are going around saying no
we should use the niv well then we're gonna say hey this person can't be part of our church because
they just don't even believe you know what we believe do you realize that the prophets and
everything how would you real quick how would how would you monitor what people are teaching in
their house like what would be the way to figure out who's going against it yeah i don't monitor
anything whatsoever so it would just simply be if people came to me if you heard about it if
people came to me and just said hey this person is teaching this false doctrine and multiple
witnesses came to me and told me all that then i would address it with them and say hey we believe
a certain way we don't want people to you know go against what the church's teachings are so if you
don't agree maybe you should find a different church that agrees with you on that particular
issue and if not then we'd have to take it before the church and it could elevate to the point of
church discipline but again that would be any doctrine specifically. What if are this from B
Smith what if Sunday school carpet is debated between solar system carpet or plain carpet
who gets kicked out of the church? If it's not a if it's not a direct tie to something the Bible
teaches I don't care. Cool so the carpet either carpet opinion you're good. Yeah it doesn't
matter. Nice okay I saw some good questions in there. I really am trying to answer every single
one even the negative ones like you I literally don't like should we drink kool-aid Austin talk
more which is the real denomination like I don't know how Austin stays so calm what Austin about
that folks the internet just is having a little bit of an issue but we want to bring it back
we've been having a great discussion a lot of great questions in the chat you can keep the chat
going we're going to bring them back in here in just a second apologize for those technical
difficulties hopefully we'll get that fixed in the future but we should be getting them
rejoining here in just a second again and I really appreciated a lot of the questions in there.
I wanted to see if we could address a couple more with Owen someone said I'm a NASA lover
someone said let Austin talk more someone said a museum lol Preston Taylor that we read that one
he read that one out loud NASA are devil worshipers says Jesus loves you 777 the moon is flat it's a
two-dimensional point of light in the firmament it's small and local I've never we're back in
business yeah sorry about that no it's all good I think we're really cooking uh all right cool so
uh we can keep going what do you guys want to do you want to answer a few more yeah I think so
there's some good questions in there let me know if you see any questions or you can just and you
can just state the question answer it if you see something I don't uh why is the sun and moon seen
at the same time during the day that's just simply because the moon is orbiting the earth
and so at at any point they could line up I mean that's what we literally saw was the solar eclipse
not that long ago where the moon literally was in the direct path of the sun for some people
in the United States and they saw that solar eclipse I'm curious do you think that that was
really the moon in front of the sun or do you think it was something else yeah if it was the
moon it works on a flat earth I didn't see the moon approach or leave it so I don't know but if
it is it works on a flat earth so I'm open either way in fact it only works on a flat earth I just
want to say this one more time so the audience knows this is really crazy you can try this at
home it cannot be what the globe model says because if you take a sphere and put it in
front of a spherical light source and project that onto another sphere the shadow does not remain a
perfect circle as it crosses the face it actually turns into an oval and then goes back to a circle
because of the geometry of the object the shadow's on so i know that it's not a spherical earth
casting a shadow or that it's just two spheres casting a shadow it just isn't physically possible
so i don't know i think that we're not supposed to fully understand the heavens i think we're
supposed to admire them just for clarity i just want to make sure are you saying that you agree
that the moon moved in front of the sun or you're just saying it's possible i'm saying it's possible
we don't see the sun approach it we don't see the sun leave it so i'm not going to claim that i mean
in your model you you just say i promise the sun disappears because it's not being lit up or
something so i uh well the sun disappeared because i watched it disappear and it was actually turned
dark in the middle of the day no the moon the moon disappears as the new moon for like up to
three days 12 hours to three days and you say it's because the sun's not lighting it up and uh you
know i go more the the enoch explanation right that it is the cycle and it basically has a relationship
with the sun that charges it but i i don't know i'm saying if it was the moon it worked you know
that if it's what it says in in enoch i'm sure i'm guessing you don't like enoch but what i'm
saying is that women gave birth to 450 foot tall giants so i'm curious no no i don't want to die
no that people claim is wrong but it doesn't matter i mean i know that owen's pretty big but
i don't think that his mom gave birth but did you get my point that even on a flat earth it would
work if it was the moon no it doesn't work at all because it would have to be a sphere specifically
and again the patterns i showed with that map show that the solar eclipses do not follow any
kind of model that's on the flat earth map so the solar eclipses specifically disprove
the flat earth models that are demonstrated and shown see this is where we would have a problem
is if if i've corrected you and you go research and find out what i said's true which is that
the prediction's not based on that at all it works perfectly fine it comes from a flatter civilization
and then you just keep saying it then we're getting in dangerous territory i know maybe right now you
assume i'm wrong because i'm a flat earth or i must be wrong i promise you the eclip prediction
isn't in any way specific to a globular assumption and where it's spinning or revolving it's not at
all i encourage you to look into it go to adl.place and you will be able to see all of it explained
crush bandicoot seven says uh for pastor shelly we're all the same countries and on the covid vax
together i mean specifically i don't know exactly the the widespread nature of the covid vaccines
because it seems like it was mostly like the developed countries and then affiliates of
america specifically i think that generally speaking i think everybody kind of subscribes to
um uh to the vaccine viewpoint so you know when it comes to vaccines specifically though
they have a hard time handing these out to the citizens but i don't really care with these
these governments um subscribe to because if they go against america they're going to lose funding
and so a lot of times they don't even necessarily agree with these things they just don't want to
lose funding or harassment or have sanctions or all kinds of stuff so i don't know that that
necessarily proves anything that a lot of countries are in on the covid vaccines i
know that some countries even didn't subscribe to them and didn't pass them out in the same way so
haiti they killed them now the point is like uh you referenced all the countries with the moon landing
satellites all that the point is pretty obvious uh the countries that don't want to lose funding
from a very small group of people in america uh go along with whatever they're told golfer bear
says please allow wits it to explain how obvious and gay the moon landing is go ahead wits it i
guess the people want to hear that uh yeah i mean in every single way it's obviously faked and gay
but the easiest way to debunk the moon landing is the actual amount of time it takes for them to
communicate back and forth according to the speed of light and the assumption that the moon is
238 000 miles away a round trip is 2.5 seconds and that means that you cannot communicate any
faster than that and uh both ways they respond to each other under 2.5 seconds at times being
literally and physically impossible for them to have been actually on a moon 238 000 miles away
proving that it was fake we've also have declassified documents to show that the cia
had what's called traveling map method in the mid 60s they were highly interested in which is
basically green screen so people say oh the technology didn't even exist the cia disagrees
they were very interested in um how to fake films right before the moon landing and they used
infrared version of a green screen but anyway the the communication directly falsifies it obviously
you can just talk about how stupid the moon landing is forever from the tweaker hut they
called the lander to how fast they talk to the shadows to them hopping around to to them dropping
things i mean it just goes on forever but you know to each their own. American Shinobi says
shout out to Owen the moderator why thank you i could do a better job but i'm trying as hard as i
can okay why can you never see stars in any official footage from space whether it's the
moon landing or current ISS live stream i guess that's a question for Pastor Shelley. Well if i
just take my phone out right now and i just go take a picture of the sky i probably won't see
any stars in that particular photo either so it's pretty obvious that sometimes you know when you
take certain photos it doesn't have the contrast settings to necessarily capture all of that light
when i took a picture of the solar eclipse it did not look like what it actually looked like in real
life sometimes cameras are limited and how much light they're going to bring in so you know it's
not really a problem whatsoever i believe there is plenty of pictures of stars in the sky because
we literally have them so it's just kind of a straw man of just not understanding how lenses
or photography even works do we have phones now that you can it can literally adjust exposure
settings like multiple times at two different levels in the same picture you could just turn
the camera away from a light source there's no videos in space of stars you know why because
it'd be way too hard to fake that because the constellations moving in relation to their path
we'd be able to catch them faking it so if i show you a video stars in this in the sky you're going
to say it's fake because there are no show me them out in space with the video of stars we will look
at it and see if it lines up with where they claim they are it doesn't exist though so there's no
videos or they're all fake because i want to understand there are no no there are no videos
outside of low earth orbit even claim to be real with stars in the videos like none so that's
pretty sketchy don't you think don't you think if you went to space in a vacuum all you would see
is stars you'd be swimming in a sea of stars the first thing you would do is give people like
4k live stream of just like beautiful i can take this camera outside right now and just
point toward the sky and you probably wouldn't see anything so it doesn't really matter i mean
you know there's plenty of photographs of the stars so you know i just yeah i just agree with
your people all right brother it's all good okay well we got some more here if anybody wants to
keep going um what do we got here this person has written this like a thousand times i don't
understand it but maybe someone does owen please ask pastor shelly how there can be waters above
the sun and stars since they are above the firmament in genesis and still exist in psalm
148 for these waters flooded earth and noah's day so again this is um a great question i'm glad
that we get to ask it because the bible talks about there's three heavens and the first heaven
is what we know is the sky and then we have the second heaven which we know is space and the
third heaven is where god resides so the verses that they're pointing out of waters being above
the heaven that's specifically talking about clouds so it's just it's a really easy explanation
and it's just that it's just not cool it doesn't preach it doesn't like prove the flat earth so
people just reject that very obvious and clear interpretation proverbs chapter number eight
it's very clear in verses like 26 27 and 28 it actually gives you the day one two three of
creation and it clearly says that he established the clouds so you know that and i don't know if you
know clouds are made of water so it's just very clear that the water that's above the firmament
is talking about clouds okay someone says austin please take some time to discuss the implications
of propaganda and how it prevents one from understanding the truth about earth it's more
of a yeah that's a that's a pretty vague question but i want to i will point this out it's very
important in my opinion whether you whatever you end up leaving we were not told the truth about
this discussion just objectively we were told like it's a scientific fact that's been proven
that the solar system's real and we're flying through space if you actually go read steven
hawking albert einstein arthur eddington you name it every astronomer and astrophysicist
worth their salt at all in the world will tell you the earth could be in the center of the
universe because there's what's called a kinematic equivalence there's actually a
dynamic equivalence as well you know fancy terms just means that everything can look like it's
moving around the earth or vice versa equally valid but we weren't told that we weren't
told that because of the copernican principle they chose to think we weren't special because
edwin hubbell said it was intolerable and horrific so that's an example of the propaganda they teach
you these stories as if they're fact and science and they leave out all the actual important
evidence right so it's basically giving you like a very like select amount of information to guide
how you believe and they show you a ball when you don't even know how to think about anything
yourself and then you just kind of have an emotional attachment to it so i would encourage
people just make up their own mind as long as you can walk away like i made up my own mind then
that's better than just believing it okay here's a question for pastor shelly how can pressure of
earth's atmosphere exist adjacent to the no pressure of space and an infinite vacuum without
a physical barrier the air would violently evacuate i mean i again i believe that the
explanation is gravity is is holding down parts of the atmosphere and so obviously you can get
to a point where molecules can uh get outside of earth's orbit and just kind of float away but
generally speaking it's it doesn't need a container to hold it in it's simply just being held in by
gravity specifically and that's just our atmosphere but again people will say that gravity's not real
or they'll they'll make all these claims about gravity not being true but it's obvious that
things do fall down towards the earth that's just an observable fact so i don't understand why air
molecules wouldn't do the same thing and in fact even in uh scientific experiments you can see
different air pressures um changing based on gravity and they're they're mixing even in a
closed system or an open system so it doesn't really matter um that uh the atmosphere is
existing on the earth i don't i don't know what the flat earth model explain would explain to
that it's really just a a problem for both models to be explained and i think gravity
does make sense the flat earth model doesn't have anything to explain that well it has a container
so the yeah it does the antecedents why wouldn't all the air just fly all the way to the top of
this container because there are temperature fluctuations and what we have is a gas cycle
on the earth most of the gas is cycled at the earth so most of it stays there it then separates
based on density and we have a downward electric current we have em energy coming from the sky
the point that they're making is you can't even have the gas pressure to have the gradient without
it being contained and if you're saying it's gravity well first of all you're just kind of
begging the question that's true but where gravity is the strongest on the earth it will
still fill a vacuum so why doesn't it stop the gas from filling a vacuum on the earth
where gravity is the strongest it's just a claim they actually claim some of this some of the gas
does get off in this space they say we lose tons of hydrogen every day but anyway yeah i mean you
can't use an experiment to show an open system you know it's you have to use a container for gas
pressure so uh it's just it's called special pleading they're like bill this is the one
exception in the universe trust me bro which is what the globe always does to be honest well if
i open hey pastor doesn't the air you know diffuse so it's now an open system yes yes the second law
thermodynamics supports our point okay that's actually yeah it supports the other point all
right hey pastor explain how a rocket produces thrust in space with no air molecules to push
against also thanks for proving you clearly know nothing about biblical cosmology we're trying to
avoid that but um yeah thrust in space with uh with uh in a vacuum how does how does uh thrust
work in a vacuum well i we're talking about going to the moon specifically i i believe that you
simply just take your rocket you shoot up you take the earth's orbit and it uses a slingshot effect
and they simply just use that slingshot they use a little bit of thrust to get outside of the earth's
orbit to escape and they have to slingshot themselves towards the moon so the the vast
majority of the trip in space is actually just a consistent trajectory now they do potentially
use their thrusters to make adjustments i believe that's what the Apollo 13 movie is even about
specifically that's how do you leave the moon then there's the moon's a vacuum allegedly so how would
they blast off without a you know they how would they how would they leave the moon because that's
the alleged claim again i don't i don't know what the atmosphere of the moon is i mean you know it's
difficult it's claimed by nasa it's zero they have no atmosphere again i don't i don't know exactly
how they um how they would argue for that specific thrust okay uh i'm curious to know
pastor shelley's view on dinosaurs are they real or made up um the word dinosaur is not found in
the bible but there is two creatures that are alluded to as far as leviathan and behemoth
and they do sound like um creatures of stature and size that we don't have today additionally
there's a lot of um cities and civilizations throughout history that have appealed to certain
large animals so i do believe that there was probably some creatures like a behemoth that
fit some of the um bone structures that we find in museums today but i do think it's also
reasonable that some of the dinosaur fossils that are quote found don't really add up to the
creatures that they claim they are if you go to a lot of these museums you'll notice that they're
pretty much all 100 casts they're not actually any bones whatsoever um there's very few bones
that they actually have on display and not even in some of those prominent museums do they even
have anything that's a legitimate bone so i think there's it's probably a mixture of there's probably
some fiction and some fact to that but i do think the bible does appeal to a creature uh in job as
behemoth that does not fit an elephant or a rhino and i believe it's it's very likely that it could
have been some type of what we call dinosaur and that they would have existed with man they were
created in the six day creation in genesis one jenny has a spicy question for austin why is austin
drinking breast milk i was drinking orange juice but uh allegedly i mean that's your claim yeah i
mean allegedly you're drinking but according to a rumble chat it's breast milk and we want to know
what's going on all right american shinobi says pastor what are the odds we lost all knowledge
in tech to make it to the moon and back which is what nasa claims and why haven't we went back
yeah i think that's a great question number one uh china and india and other countries have visited
the moon since then india recently landed on the moon um but when it comes to technology
it's definitely lost all the time we don't know how to build the pyramids we don't know how they
built certain things of antiquity but you know if you understand nasa at the in the 60s and the 70s
like a lot of the information was not in a computer a lot of the information was in the head of their
scientists of their astronauts they had to be able to do certain calculations in their head on the
fly and so a lot of that information doesn't necessarily get transferred doesn't get written
down um it's not any different than if you just drop me and austin and owen on an island by
ourselves we're not going to start manufacturing cars and computers and cell phones like we don't
know how to do that and so there's not really any difference to a particular space program being
shut down and that generation passing away and bringing a new generation and they don't
necessarily understand all of the technology that they had at that time but you have elon musk and
other people reinventing it coming up with new processes new technologies new spacecrafts new
rockets in fact the rockets that they make for spacex they actually reuse them so the thrusters
they send them up and then they come back and land back down and they're able to reuse that
particular portion of the spacecraft and so you know it's not like technology being lost over time
is a new phenomenon that's something that is very common and it's a human condition so i think it's
something we should all take note of is that we need to also be smart and not just let technology
go by the wayside totally and i think it's a great time to start landing the plane
we're pushing three hours now and everybody's been having a blast and i just like to personally thank
both of you guys for doing this pastor shelly wits it gets it i thought this went really fun
i mean the chat really enjoyed themselves especially uh once i started reading their stuff i think that
they're enjoying it i think everybody made some good points and let's uh each of you guys three
minutes uh make a statement to your people where people can find you why you think this is important
but how we can still all get along let's wrap it up fun let's start with uh let's start with austin
yes so um like the reason that i do this man and this may trigger some people here is uh this isn't
really something i would have ever done if anyone knew me before i talked about this a lot they
they would not believe this would ever happen um i just i had a very spiritual experience and
um i started feeling kind of led to talk about how we're being misled about uh what what was
created for us and it hasn't been easy for me man i lost a very good job offer um i've been
clearly ostracized and blah blah blah and i don't care but i mean i'm not a victim or anything i'm
just pointing out that the motivation for flat earthers is nothing like what people seem to think
it is um and the reason that i do all that is because it changes many people's lives and that's
just a fact and fireth is so dangerous that someone may move out of a city and make five babies
and grow a garden or something you know so it gets you close to the creator and grounded and
more appreciative of what's here um and more intuitively like in line with what you experience
and so i just want the audience to go look into these things like look at watch the principal
documentary watch heliosorcery that's where you'll learn the true history of geocentrism
inform yourself on these things and you'll find out that there's something called the Copernican
principle and that's the idea that the earth does not occupy a special or unique place
and these crazy atheistic people that want to believe in evolution and hate the idea of god
and all this stuff they they push the Copernican principle of philosophy into this discussion
and now claim that it's science and what you'll find out is the evidence actually shows that the
earth's in the center and in fact that we built huge telescopes for the first time ever in the
early 1900s we saw out what people call galaxies and everything was moving around the earth and
they're like wait a minute this is not supposed to be happening did they step back and say oh maybe
the earth is in the center of course not they made up new stories that everything's accelerating
expanding creating another illusion and whenever we measured it time slowed down and tricked us
and blah blah blah because these people they have a philosophical bias against it so long story
short to wrap it up just go look into that i have a geocentrism stream that if you really find out
what happened it's not what you're being led to believe right and i encourage everyone to just
kind of be more patient and kind with people because because what you don't know is the people
that are on this side have done lots of research and they found out whoa this is like a huge lie
that we're being told we're being misled about the actual observations and it shows that the
earth's in the center and finally that would of course mean if the earth's in the center the
question is who placed it there and it's a pretty significant and impactful thing so i encourage
people just to stay open-minded and try to be uh humble and kind to people well thank you witsa
gets it and i don't know how to do a poll in uh someone else's chat but if you guys in the chat
want to just say who you thought one just say the name and then a w um because that's important to
know and i'd also like to apologize to uh pastor showing the beginning i was way too bitchy uh i
can do that i'm sorry it ended up being great so i was like it i really had a good time and i was
way too aggressive in the beginning so if you guys watched from the beginning i'm going to time
travel little einstein style my bad he turned out to be a good dude okay uh final closing thoughts
for pastor shelly yeah i want to thank both parties for being on the show and uh even though
owen was a prick at the beginning he warmed up so i appreciate that and uh my bad when it comes to
this specific issue you know i i believe there's just so much reality denial when it comes to the
flat earth position and of course the government's lying about a lot of things of course there's a
lot of conspiracy theories that are true and of course i believe the bible but i think that
sometimes people go a little overboard with the idea that the government's lying look two plus
two is still four and you know there's there's some level of reality that we can all adhere to
i don't think everybody's in on this scam and specifically you know the sun itself if if we're
orbiting around the sun the sun is a picture of god and you know the world is not about us
it's about god and it's about us serving and worshiping him and specifically the most
important truth that you can ever get is the gospel of jesus christ being saved you know the
bible makes it clear that we've all sinned and if we don't um get saved that we would go to hell
which is in the center of the sphere and that's a place i don't want anyone to go to that's a bad
time to realize that the earth's a sphere is when you're in hell burning and so i want people to be
saved um the bible makes it clear that jesus christ died on the cross for all our sins was
buried in rose again and all we have to do is simply put our trust in him one time put your
faith in him alone for salvation and you will be saved you will go to heaven when you die
that's the most important truth and of course i do think that there's other things that are important
that's where we're having a discussion we're bringing up these different topics um i do believe
that nasa is not lying on this specific issue but that doesn't mean that i care what nasa thinks
because i really don't and people have believed in the sphere and believed everything i'm saying
before nasa ever existed so it's just a straw man to say that i just love these institutions
or something like that i don't care at all i just want people to be saved and i don't want people
to be stupid and look like idiots and unfortunately the reason why people are mocking you for being a
flat earther is because you're being stupid they love you sometimes rebuke is coming from a place
of love jesus said that he rebukes those whom he loves and you know the bible talks about parents
making their children as a form of love and so sometimes you tell someone that they're just
being a retard and an idiot because they are and you love them and you want them to stop subscribing
to stupid idiotic things like the flat earth and and i really hope that people will um check out
the evidence because it's it's abundant that the earth is a sphere everything proves that the bible
proves that don't listen to weird cultists who are trying to just suck you down a bad rabbit hole
nice that was a very eloquent close and with that we're going to land the plane i'd like to thank
uh pastor jonathan shelley he just uh it's the baptist bias here on rumble i think he got a
lot of a lot of people to watch i mean we we've had almost over 2 000 the whole time
so uh took some uh courage and some balls and some uh open-mindedness to come have this chat
of course wits it gets it austin i love his stuff i've known him for a long time um if you want to
check him out uh i think he's on youtube right uh wits it yeah yeah just just for this part of
the topics yeah yeah he's on youtube he's on rumble he's on all the places i did a moderate
job it's okay if you thought i was annoying i tried my best but uh you can find me on rumble.com
slash user slash owen benjamin and um yeah i felt like this was great and i will see you guys soon
and be good to each other much love.