Okay, so I was thinking maybe I should give my thoughts on transhumanism
Transhumanism what are your general thoughts of transhumanism? What do you know about it?
Well, my understanding of transhumanism is that basically it involves using technology to transcend
Limitations as human beings and most of the time when I've heard people discuss transhumanism
They were talking about life extension even to the point of living forever
Physically on this earth because obviously we as human beings don't have that physical capability
But there are people who think that technology could be used to achieve that now the first time that I ever heard about
Transhumanism I was actually sitting on an airplane with a guy who was really into it
he had magazines and things that that had to do with it and this is about
three or four years ago and the thing that we were discussing was the idea of basically scanning someone's brain and
taking all the data from their brain because obviously our brain works on electric impulses and
If there would be a way to basically, you know
Read someone's mind scan their brain
Electronically and then put that data into like some kind of a hard drive some kind of a storage device
and obviously it sounds crazy and far-fetched, but
You know, obviously that's where the technology is going in a sense because even in our film after the tribulation
We briefly touch on the fact that the brain scan technology is rapidly advancing
Where people can think about things and then it could you know?
Literally write words on a computer screen or make an image come on a computer screen just based on their thoughts
so
The theory was that if this were to keep progressing you could just basically take the entire contents of someone's brain all their memories
everything about the way they think and then transfer that to a
hard drive and store that and then you know to take it even further would be to like take that information and then like
Upload it into like an Android or something, you know
This is what this guy was talking about as a way to achieve
Immortality because we've taken everything out of you and then put it into another
Vessel as it were okay
Now I don't believe we're ever going to achieve that but I'm just telling you this is what the guy
explained to me on the airplane, okay, and
The thing that I thought about with that is that you know
Let's say you really could do that just theoretically if you took all the information from someone's brain and put it into a machine
Like a robot or an Android, you know
Would that be you because they're saying this is immortality
But I don't obviously I don't believe that it would be because what you could create at best would be
you know a machine that thinks it's you because it has all the memories that you have and
It has your proclivities and it and it acts like you and maybe even someone else could think it's you
But would it be you but then there's another question that goes even deeper than that. Is that
You know this thing this machine would not be conscious so could it wouldn't even really think it's you doesn't even have any
consciousness to think anything at all or is it just going through the motions of
Acting how you would act and doing what you would do. You kind of say yes. Yeah, okay
but then there's another question beyond that of
Okay, let's say that you could you know
Take all the contents of someone's brain and then put it into a machine and then that machine even were to have a consciousness
Where it thinks it's you, okay
Then the question is, you know, would that have any free will?
Because of the fact that you know, I believe that we as human beings have free will
But that that would come from the soul
Whereas could a machine actually have free will you know, I don't think so
So I don't think a machine could have consciousness number one
And I don't think that a machine could have free will either because that's two different issues right there
Okay, because let's say you program this thing to be like you then it would just let's say continue in the patterns
That you've lived up until that point, but could it make new decisions and take new?
Pathways and routes, you know is that would be a different issue
So, yeah, so my my take on it is
This though, you know, I know that right now there's not a computer that's as powerful as the human mind
I mean the human mind is the most powerful
processor on this planet
but the scientists and people are predicting that eventually they could develop a computer as
Powerful as the human mind and then more powerful than the human mind
But where I would approach this from a biblical
Perspective, you know, I would point to a few scriptures in Genesis. Okay, first of all in Genesis chapter 3
It's right at the very beginning of the Bible
After Adam and Eve have ever eaten the forbidden fruit
This is what God says in verse 22 of chapter 3 the Lord God said behold
the man is become as one of us to no good and evil and
Now lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever
Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken
So he drove out the man and he placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherry bims and a flaming sword
Which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life. So in this story, basically
You know when mankind is to a point where he's achieving a you know, godlike status
God puts a stop to it and says he's not gonna allow God
He's not gonna allow man to understand good and evil in the way that he does and live forever
So he basically kicks him out of the Garden of Eden just to withhold him from having eternal life
Then just a few chapters later. There's a story of the Tower of Babel in Genesis chapter 11
okay, and this is after Noah after the flood and everything and mankind is united and
They have built a city and they're building this tower to reach unto heaven and so forth
and here's what God says in Genesis chapter 11 verse 5 and the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the
children of men builded and
the Lord said behold the people is one and they have all one language and this they began to do and then listen to this
next phrase and
Now nothing will be restrained from them which they have imagined to do
Go to let us go down and there confound their language that they may not understand one another's speech
So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth and they left off to build the city
so here again man is achieving something that God doesn't want him to cheat going beyond a
Certain boundary that God has put on man and God puts a stop to it. So my perspective on this is that before
Mankind could ever get to these levels of technology where he's achieving a godlike status
Okay of being able to live forever in any capacity or even to be able to create
You know artificial intelligence in the sense of you know conscious
sentient
you know
Beings in the form of you know computers. I
Believe that before that God will put a stop to it and and the way I think that's gonna happen is just that you know
We know from the Bible that there's going to be the the events of the end times the tribulation the second coming of Jesus Christ
So my perspective on this is a Bible believing Christian is that the end of the world as the Bible calls
It will just take place
before man
Reaches these levels of technology
Okay
Now aside from the the style of transhumanism that that guy in the airplane
talked to me about as far as you know taking the contents of your brain and and moving it to another vessel and
And as I said before I don't believe that the the soul would go with it
You know at best it'd be a machine that thought it was you but it wouldn't really be you that's my opinion on that
But actually I actually agree with you, okay
I think in the future
They'll probably be a bunch of machines pretending to be like their original person and his mind uploaded a machine
But it's not really them. Yeah, it's not really them
Well, and see we I believe in the soul the spirit, you know, which is beyond just the flesh here
Okay, but then another style of transhumanism would be to you know
Leave your existing brain in place because obviously that's the seat of our
Thought and consciousness and basically to replace other body parts
With a body part that would not wax old, you know, for example, obviously, you know an artificial heart
Yeah, just other artificial
Components and keep the brain
That's my personal strategy. But then again with the brain is that isn't the brain gonna wear out though?
I don't know. I mean what you know, let's say you make everything else durable and and and
permanent
Will the brain ever just eventually run out, you know, obviously the way it plays out now
Is that somebody's heart gives out or other?
Processes in the body fail
But if those other processes were extended, how long does a brain last?
It's a valid question. Yeah, and I'd be willing to bet it's probably not forever
Yeah, we probably need some kind of other
Intervention to keep the brain healthy maybe going there with nanobots and clean up the damage or just some way to keep it some
Way to restore it. Yeah, and then
basically
You know if if basically these type of things were to to be implemented fear, you know
Just theoretically hypothetically this happened and that you know
The second coming of Christ has not yet taken place
Then that would just show that I was wrong when I said that God would put a stop to things before that happened
You know, I mean it wouldn't make me lose faith in the Bible or or lose faith in the eventual second coming of Jesus Christ
It would just mean that I was wrong on that particular theory. Mm-hmm. Okay. What if do you think that?
It's your duty to like stop any of these technologies or do you want them? Would you want to just let them go?
Well, I don't really think it's any of my business, you know to try to stop these type of technologies now when it comes to the
The genetic modification though
That is something that I would have
Concerns about and fears about and and want to put a stop to okay. That's the train of thought that I lost a little bit earlier
That's what I was thinking of actually it would be a third pathway besides the you know
the downloading as it were besides the replacing of
body parts that would wax old with permanent body parts, but but the third pathway would be a
Tampering with the DNA, you know a turning off of this gene or that gene or a splicing of sorts, you know
That's the one that would be scary because there's already genetic modification going on in the realm of plants and animals
Right. We have the GMO
plants and G even GMO insects and
A lot of these things have had unintended consequences because once you release these organisms
into the environment, you know, you can't put the cat back into the bag in a sense because
you know once the genies out of the bottle now you've got all these insects and plants and they get out there in the wild and
they take over and
Whenever man tries to mess with God's order there can be a lot of unintended consequences
Like it reminded me one time I was working in this water filtration plant and there were just ladybugs everywhere
Just late you couldn't even hardly walk without stepping on ladybugs. There's ladybugs and I asked this guy, you know, what is the deal?
What's going on?
He said well
You know
They brought these ladybugs in to deal with some other small problem that they had like all these ladybugs are gonna fix it
But because they were not indigenous to that area. They had no natural predators. So now they're just
Reproducing
unchecked and there's just ladybugs everywhere and they don't know what they're gonna do and I mean, that's just a mild example of
How tampering with you know animals and plants can create unintended consequences also, you know the GMO foods
What are they doing to our health?
Yeah
And even if we eat them and we feel fine now
What about ten years from now or what about the effects that they're gonna have on our children?
Yeah in the in the second generation third generation. I'm really concerned about that, too
Like I don't wanna be a guinea pig, you know, like exactly if they were tested and super healthy, you know
We knew fat for sure. I would eat him but you know, I'm scared of being a guinea pig for sure
okay, so let's I want to ask you like
How far would you personally start taking these?
Interventions for aging let's say if they cured aging could you see yourself actually taking advantage of that?
It's not immortality, but it's just we're not gonna die from aging. Would you personally before?
Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't think there's anything wrong with using, you know medical
Technology and advancement in order to live longer live a healthier life, you know, for example, let's say somebody is
You know having heart disease they have a heart attack and then they go in and get some kind of an artificial valve put in
Or something. I mean, I don't think that any Christian would probably
object to that
They probably think that that's the most natural thing in the world to just swap out a bad valve or whatever
Get an artificial hip replacement or just you know
pacemaker whatever
But I do want to say this, you know as a bible-believing Christian, you know
I believe there's one path to immortality and that's through Jesus because obviously, you know, Jesus said
He said I am the resurrection in the life. He that believeth in me though. He were dead yet. Shall I live and
Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die
Believest thou this and then he also said, you know verily verily I say unto you he that believeth on me has everlasting life
So to me the whole idea of human being saying well, I want to try to find immortality physically on this earth
you know through transhumanism is
inherently a rejection of
Spiritual eternal life being offered through Jesus. It's like you don't trust that
You don't want to trust the fact that Jesus died for our sins and he was buried and then he rose again as
Our path to immortality. It's like man's trying to find another path to immortality
Sort of like in the story of the Tower of Babel that I referred to earlier
They say they're building a tower to reach into heaven, you know, it's man trying to make his own way to heaven
How do you know Jesus wasn't talking about?
physical
Mortality on earth
Physical like by means of these technologies are going to come up with in the future
How do you know that that's not what Jesus was talking about?
Well, just because there's so many scriptures where he talks about, you know, it's appointed unto men wants to die
but after this the judgment and
Obviously Jesus is talking about having eternal life and and his followers having eternal life, but we know that they died
Physical deaths even Jesus died a physical death. And of course he was raised again from the dead three days later
But all of the people that he was talking to
Where he told these people that if they believed in him that they would never die they died physically
Okay, so clearly he was talking about, you know eternal life in the sense that the soul goes to heaven after physical death
Okay, so you you think Christians like a good Christian would be in favor of curing aging
It sounded like that's what you think well, I you know, I I wouldn't I don't have real super strong opinions on
You know what other people would choose to do
but in the sense of using
medicine using modern medicine and modern technology to
Make us live longer. I'm all for that and I think that your average Christian would be all for that
That's different than obviously trying to achieve immortality
Trying to have eternal life rather just you know be healthy during age and here's the thing, you know
I want to live as long as possible physically on this earth, you know
I'm not even though I believe obviously from the bottom of my heart that I have eternal life and that the moment I breathe my last
Breath I'm gonna be in heaven
I still want to live on this earth as long as I can to to fulfill the mission, you know
God has for me. So it sounds like if they did come out with some pill that if you take you stop aging
It sounds like you would take that
Well, you know, yeah, but I'd be nervous about it because think about all the other stuff they've come out with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
Like if I hypothetically just knew for sure yeah, hey this thing
Has no side effects this thing stop raging you take it. I don't know
I mean, that's a hard question just because you know, it's so hypothetical
Yeah, because it seems like everything has a catch to it
Yeah in this world, you know
but like you can't have your cake and eat it hypothetical could be realistic like because let's say they came out with the pill very
Soon and then you didn't want to be the guinea pig
So you waited 30 years before you took it and you saw everyone else that took it. They're fine
They're actually just staying young. Would you think you might take it then?
Yeah, I mean there's always the option that I might take it. Mm-hmm
But it's there's nothing inherently about that that is a sin according to you you're saying
To take a pill that would stop your aging. That's not a sin
Well, I don't think that there's ever gonna be such a pill, but I don't see anything inherently sinful
With just basically, you know
Doing what's best for your body?
And staying on this earth and serving God and you know doing good things
I don't see anything inherently sinful with that in the sense of hey your heart's going out
You get a valve replacement you get the bypass whatever now
there are some people out there who I guess I
don't know Amish people maybe or
I'm sure that there are people out there who don't believe in even
Going to the doctor or going to the hospital for any reason and they they just want to kind of let things run their course
Yeah, I'm sure there are people out there like that
But I'd be willing to bet that probably the vast majority of Christians wouldn't see a moral dilemma in
Preserving the body so you're saying hypothetically
In five years they come out with a cure for aging a bunch of Christians start taking this. It's just a pill
And they stop aging and then hypothetically they live
Thousands of more years on this planet before the end of the world happens you think that's yeah, but it fine, right?
You wouldn't judge those Christians, right? I'm saying no I wouldn't but but the thing is though
I don't think that this world is going to go on for thousands more years at all
I don't you know
I don't know when the end is going to be and Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour so we should
not try to predict
when
But there's no way it's going to be thousands of years from now. I mean it has to be well hypothetically it could
Hypothetically you don't know here's the thing you know the Bible call anything in the New Testament is known as the latter days
The last days the latter times, so my thought would be that if there were about
Four thousand and three hundred years from the creation of the world up until the time of Christ
You know it would make sense that there would be less than that after
The time of Christ in order to justify calling it the latter days or the last days
You know what I mean because if there were just if it just went on and on and on at some point
It would it would seem like a strange thing to call it the last days
Yes, you guys see what I'm saying
Now let's say that they come out with a cure for aging and
A bunch of Christians didn't take it and they're dying you know for yeah, and you know over hundreds of years
They're all dying and then you see other people who do take the pill are just getting to live indefinitely
At what point would you say it qualifies as like suicide not to take the pill? What do you think well first of all?
You know just to restate what I said at the beginning of this conversation like I strongly believe that none of this will ever happen
Yeah, because of God's intervention in Genesis 3 and God's intervention in Genesis 11
I don't believe that any such technology will ever exist
So this is all like very hypothetical. Yeah, and I don't believe in any of this. Yeah, okay?
Yeah, like I strongly believe that man will never achieve that ability
Okay, but you know to say it's suicide
I'd see we could use examples of things that exist right now though that are that are a similar moral dilemma
Like for example, you know what if what if somebody's heart is giving out?
Because they're old because they're you know 80 years old, and they say hey, I'm not gonna do the bypass surgery
I'm not gonna do the open-heart surgery. I'm just gonna peacefully die in my home. I've lived my three score in ten years
I'm ready to just go the way of all flesh. I mean you can't call that suicide
That's that'd be ridiculous because they're not killing themselves
They're just dying of natural causes they've lived their life
It's over, but it would be suicide if they knew that by taking the intervention. They will live longer
I don't believe so really so even though given the clear choices
I could do this and live a lot longer versus I could just die now
Well because they're following the natural order of things though, but it's suicide by following the natural order sometimes
I don't think so no because you're not killing yourself suicide means you're killing yourself
You're not killing yourself just by not choosing to
Unnaturally extend your life. No that's my opinion. Do you think it might be even a sin?
according to Christianity not to strive to cure aging considering that
The Bible teaches the message that you shouldn't you should try to alleviate people's suffering right and try to help people
And isn't it by not curing aging aren't we condemning a lot of people to a lot of horrible suffering with aging and all the
Aid diseases that come with aging so you think it could be argued that it's actually a sin not to
Cure aging because of the suffering I don't because of the fact that you know the Bible defines sin as transgressing
God's law so if you're gonna say that X Y & Z is a sin
Then to me you would have to point to a specific law of God that's being violated
That's why earlier when you asked me. Hey is it wrong to try to extend your physical life through technology
The reason I said it's not a sin is because if it's not commanded against in God's Word
Then it's not a sin. You know because there are a lot of things that God tells us not to do
We do those things. It's a sin
So therefore if you're gonna say wouldn't it be a sin to not do it's like you'd have to point to some scripture
How about the Good Samaritan?
It wouldn't have been a sin for that guy to pass the guy in the road, you know
But right wouldn't it happen because there isn't there a sin by by the absence of doing something by omission
Yes, sir. Oh man by Commission. Yeah. Yeah, so in the same way that the Good Samaritan kind of had to help that guy
Mm-hmm had a duty to
Doesn't humanity
Doesn't don't Christians have a duty to cure aging and thereby help the old people who are suffering from Alzheimer's and dementia
And these horrible lists of diseases and so on so on so how would how practically speaking do would you suggest that Christians?
Would alleviate this suffering give money to a anti-aging research
Simple as that anti-aging research does not have enough money and if Christian churches like yourself and you know
Other pastors started actually preaching that you know
Hey
We should actually try to cure aging because it's a huge cause suffering in fact
It's actually the biggest cause of suffering by a long because more people are suffering from a old age than any other cause
and they but see that's not what we believe though because you know what what I want to spend my money and
Time and effort toward achieving is getting the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ to people
To me the ultimate suffering is people going to hell when they die
But not getting old and dying because cured these people from old age. They'd have so much more time to become Christian
Well, see, I don't agree with that because I believe that people get to a point where they've heard the gospel
they understood it and they kind of made their choice and kind of rejected it and they they get to a point where
They're done. You know, they're not gonna get saved. They're not gonna receive the gospel
I mean the Bible is clear that you know people get to that point and so, you know that person could live
Hundreds more years. It's not like there's just more of a chance that they're gonna get saved
If you're not going to get saved in the 70 years that God's given you in the 80 years that God's get you're probably not
Gonna get saved at all. Okay, and so are people suffering by getting old and and dying? Well, you know what?
a lot of people probably have a nice life even in their old age and and they're probably happy being old and
having their grandkids and great-grandkids and then they die and go to be with the Lord and you know
Maybe a lot of people's
Suffering and and you know agony with being old and everything. I mean, maybe
There's other reasons why so you're saying it's possible God
Potentially has aging there as a kind of way people suffer at the end of their life for well
but not I just don't think everybody really suffers that much at the end of their life as
You're kind of you're kind of acting like it's just this horrific
Destiny that we're all heading toward I
Mean it doesn't really have to be have you seen it outside of a nursing home. These people are not enjoying them
Okay, but well, but here's here's another thing though. Okay, but to see is every old person put in a nursing home. No
And here's another thing to think about, you know besides just the fact that you know
okay, people are getting old they're they're suffering and okay, but
Eliminating all suffering
Eliminating pain that's the goal of transhumanism. Yeah, but you know what? It's it's a misguided goal. Why is very misguided
Why would that be bad because a life without pain, you know is not the ideal life because pain is
Part of life we can't even enjoy
pleasure without having pain
there also as a counterpoint, you know this idea of
Creating a world where there's no pain and no suffering
And and in fact you said that's transhumanism and I and I've even seen
transhumanism
defined in certain contexts as
Having a goal of just ending the suffering of all sentient beings. Yeah. Yeah, but you know what?
Suffering makes us a better person
Because you know the Bible character exactly
So if you if you had a person who had no suffering in their life, they would be a horrible person. They'd be an evil person
Because suffering makes you a good person you have a good point on this one
I think it's there's a lot of truth to what you're saying right there
But see Jesus himself the Bible says that he was a man of sorrows and well acquainted with grief
You know David said in the book of Psalms, it's good for me that I've been afflicted then I might keep thy word
You know the Bible says whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and scourges every son whom he receive it
You know, I spank my children
You know, that's part of what I believe in regard to child rearing based on the Word of God. Well a spanking is painful
but in the end it creates a better person, okay, because
Suffering builds our character and you know what I suffer every day
Because you know and and here's the thing, you know even just and this is just kind of a carnal example a physical example
But you know, I really like to exercise
Just for my health and also just for my mental well-being
I like to exercise just as a stress relief and just to just to feel better
But pain is inherent in exercise
you know, and I'm not any kind of a masochist or anything by any stretch of the imagination, but
There's a good feeling to going out and running hard. Oh, yeah swimming
Hiking climbing you're experiencing pain
But is all pain bad. I totally know what you're talking about. I'm a hot food spicy food junkie
So it's that pain and yeah, you like that burn. I like the burn, you know, you were like the ginger ale
That's real spicy. Yeah. Yeah, but see you're trying to eliminate that from the world
And it's it's it's misguided
Okay, you know we need to go through pain we need to go through suffering it's part of life
It's part of the experience and if you took that away, we turn us all into spoiled brats
Yeah, I think that you can write how those Christians gonna maybe they'll if they're in heaven
Let's say you're right and there's Christians in heaven and have no pain of suffering for ya
How are they gonna avoid reverting into some bad person because they don't have to experience pain
Well, see if that but see the difference is that in in heaven, we no longer have the sin nature
We no longer have the flesh that we're living right now right now
We have the flesh and the spirit and there's a war going on between the flesh and the spirit according to the Bible
So, you know if there's no suffering there's no pain because of our sinful nature. We're going to become
bad people as it were
Back on the so so the suffering
Plus it doesn't make people happy to give them everything they want. Anyway, there's an empty feeling in getting everything you want
You know right like Alexander the Great, you know wept because there are no more worlds to conquer
When you're just handed everything you don't even appreciate it anyway
But when you struggle and fight and and you you face the uphill battle
That's what makes life
Well, you know, there's a good chance that a lot of people actually would totally agree with you
And that if we were to have some kind of you know
Very technological utopia in the future. We would kind of try to engineer a little bit of suffering in there
The pleasure, you know some pleasurable types of suffering
You know to me this is this whole hot peppers and running and exercising but this whole thing of like, you know
Yeah, but we'll engineer and everything, you know, it's really scary because who's going to be doing the engineering, you know
And that's a real scary question, you know, that's kind of text artificial intelligence. Okay, and think about it. Yeah, exactly
Okay, plus, you know whenever artificial intelligence occurs in science fiction
Which artificial intelligence is part and parcel of transhumanism. Am I right? It's kind of yeah related topic
Yeah, well, you know whenever there's a science fiction
Story with artificial intelligence the artificial intelligence pretty much takes over and wants to kill everybody or abuse everybody
You know and become its own boss or whatever. So
You know this whole idea of engineering our bodies and engineering everything my
Philosophy is that what God has made is perfect
God's creation is perfect
And so when man tries to do better than God and that's really what transhumanism is at its core when you stop and think about
It it's man trying to improve upon God's creation saying you know what God you did not make us properly
We're not saying that we don't a lot of Muslims don't believe in God, so we're not going to talk to okay, right
But I'm saying from a Christian perspective. Yes, I'm a Bible believing Christian
Yeah to me when I look at transhumanism what transhumanism is saying is you know what God you have created this
Model of a human being and we can do better. Yeah, we're gonna out create you God and to me that's blasphemous and
Also, you know the idea of achieving eternal life outside of Jesus is also blessed
Jesus said be perfect, right? So isn't wouldn't Jesus maybe so you could call him the first transhumanist
He's wanting people to be perfect. How else do you be perfect in this our bodies are not perfect
They get old and die and look at nature
It's filled with horrible suffering even innocent animals that they didn't they didn't eat the fruit, right?
Why should they have to suffer first of all, you have to understand when the Bible uses the word perfect
It's not our modern definition of perfect when the Bible used the word perfect. It means complete
Like for example, the Bible says if any of you
lack wisdom let a mask of God and it says
Let patients have her perfect work that you may be perfect and entire wanting nothing
So perfect according the Bible means like entire complete not lacking anything. It doesn't mean like
Without flaw because when we say perfect we mean without flaw
but if you look up the word perfect in a dictionary
You actually see that it has multiple definitions and one of the definitions of perfect means complete
Not how you supposed to know which definition Jesus was talking about when he said perfect
What if it is well because because if you use the Bible as its own dictionary
And you look up every time the word perfect is mentioned
It's real clear from the context that perfect is meaning that there's nothing lacking that it's that it's complete
So I would use the context to let the Bible define itself and be its own dictionary
I'm just telling you that the original meaning of perfect
Okay, if you go back several hundred years in the English language, and if you look up perfect in any dictionary
You'll see that what I'm telling you is true is different than our popular definition that we have a perfect today
But this idea of look at all the suffering in nature. It's horrible. But again that you know
You're coming at it with the idea that suffering is always a bad thing because what about this?
What if there are people who deserve to suffer?
You know if we eliminate suffering well
You see that is another issue too deserving to suffer deserving to suffer
And see when it comes to plants and animals. I I personally do not believe that plants and animals matter
I don't think that God cares about animals and plants biblically speaking
I think that they're here for one reason and that is for mankind to benefit from and use and
Obviously a smart person is going to you know, take care of their animal
That is useful to them and plants and so forth, but I I don't put plants and animals on the level of human beings
I don't think that they're important in
The view of eternity because they're gonna go to dust and they're not
Mm-hmm, you know man is made in the image of God animals don't matter in my opinion. They don't matter at all
They they matter in the sense that they're useful to man
But that's why they were created for man to have dominion over the animals and to use them
I do not believe that animals matter though. Uh-huh like that. They have a soul or that they yeah that they have
value in the same way the human being has been wouldn't it be a sin for a Christian to feed his
dog and then over the course of a year that might amount to a thousand dollars when he could have given that thousand dollars to
You know feed starving children in Africa
Essentially he with his money and his resources he is
Prioritizing the life of an animal over the life of a human being so wouldn't it be a sin for that?
well, first of all, you know, my dog has a function that's very important because
We did not have a dog
Originally, we moved to Arizona and had people try to break into our house multiple times then we got a dog and that solved that
Problem so when I'm feeding my dog
I'm actually securing my my house and my family from invaders number one
Number two the reason that people are starving in Africa has nothing to do with me sending a thousand dollars to Sally
Struthers or Bono or anybody else
Because of the fact that you know that that money that's being sent over there is not necessarily fixing the problem
you know, and I believe that the problem over there is
Number one, there's corruption in government and there are evil people
That want to just rape Africa of its resources and keep the people in poverty keep them
uneducated keep them
Starving and so forth and that number two that people in Africa who are living a sinful life
You know are experiencing the judgment of God also
And obviously there are a lot of good godly righteous people in Africa
Also, but there are also a lot of really wicked and evil people over there, too
And so I think that the more a society honors God
You know the more people are saved and and preaching the Bible and following Christian
Principles the better off their society is going to be that's why we're not starving
Here in the United States of America because in the past historically, we've been a a Christian nation
Mm-hmm a sense. Okay. That's why we're not starving right now. Okay, and
Obviously our government is getting more and more corrupt and and and and so forth going forward, but that's also in
Relation to the fact that our country's turning away from the Bible at the same rate if a bunch of Christians
Decided to start giving lots of money to anti-aging research to companies that are trying to cure aging
Would you think God would look favorably on that or?
Neutral or would he care or would he be against it? Well, you know, I I strongly believe in
You know our freedom as
Individuals even in even in God's economy. He gives us a lot of choices and a lot of freedom
I mean, he definitely has a lot of commandments and things he tells us don't do this to this. Okay. Mm-hmm
I don't believe that that would be the best use of anyone's money as a Christian because of the fact that the
Important thing is the gospel of Jesus Christ, so it would be a better use for the money
Using it to further the gospel of Jesus Christ so like
Missionaries and churches and yeah churches missionaries, you know, so that's more important than stopping the suffering of people
Absolutely because even extending life is okay
What if I can you're saying a pastor should spend his money on building a church rather than feeding a starving child in Africa?
Well, I'm not saying building a big fancy building, you know
I'm talking about using money to basically and you say well, how can money be used to you know?
Further the gospel. Well, it could be used first of all to employ
people that would go and preach the gospel and missionaries and pastors and everything that obviously
Need to support their families and be able to do that work as their job
You know, that would be one thing that it could go toward or even toward, you know, for example, you know buying
Technological equipment and everything to be able to broadcast the message of the gospel
Okay, and then the true Word of God because the media is controlled by Satan, you know
So if you want to get anything real out there, you have to do it yourself
You know
You have to be the media if you use the internet and so forth to really be able to broadcast any sort of truth
Loudly, okay, but you say man, you know, that's more important than any people suffering
If I can end someone's temporal suffering on this earth or extend their life to 300 years
Okay, and then that person is gonna die and go to hell
Then that's really worthless because if I can extend that person's life to a thousand years
But then they're gonna die and go to hell and spend billions of years in hell. Well, what have I accomplished nothing? Yeah
Okay
So all the things that are seen the Bible says the things which are seen are temporal and the things that are not seen are
Eternal so I would rather invest my time energy money in the eternal than in the temporal. Okay, let's talk about hell
This is an interesting topic and you talked about earlier. You said people some people are deserving of suffering, right? And I
don't think I'm deserving of suffering. Mm-hmm, you know and
Do you think someone like myself as an atheist?
That I deserve to suffer in hell for eternity
Even though I feel like I'm a really good person I go out of my way to help people, you know
I don't feel like I'm sinning even according to the Bible standards. I mean maybe a little bit of sin
You know something well, but minor sins not like big sins, you know, I mean like I care about people
I try to help people. I don't hurt of people. Here's the thing. Why do I deserve to go to hell forever?
I don't I believe the Bible is the Word of God. It's my final authority, you know, do I think for myself?
Of course do I use reason and logic and and learn things of course, but
My basis my foundation is the Bible the Word of God and the Bible says that you're not a good person
Okay, because the Bible says there's none good but one and that's God and the Bible says there's none good
You know, no not one we've all for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God
So you can tell me you know all day long. Hey
Excuse me. I'm a good person and I don't deserve hell. But you know what the Bible says that you do deserve hell
it's that simple and a you know, because the Bible says but the fearful and
unbelieving and the abominable and murderers sorcerers
Whoremongers idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone
Which is the second death and I'm sure you've lied. We know that you're unbelieving
You know whether or not you've done everything else on that list the point is in God's sight we're all guilty
We're all damned but he loves us. That's why he died for us
Okay, and he makes it very easy to be saved
Is it you know believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and do you think God is perfectly just?
Absolutely. That's one of his major attributes is justice. Do you think it's perfectly just that God would create someone like me?
Mm-hmm that I would grow up become an atheist
and
Maybe you know lie and some other few minor sins and that and that I I'm just fully going to burn for
eternity in
Anguish and suffering in hell forever. You think that's just I believe it's just absolutely
Mm-hmm Wow
But see your bit but of course, you know
You're trying to really gloss over your sins and really, you know put that kind of spin on it
You know, that's not the way the Bible portrays it
I don't know. I'm not a huge expert on the Bible
But I doubt the Bible even says it's a sin not to believe in God. It does. Yeah, it absolutely wears
Well, here's the thing. What's a sin? It's violating the commandments of God and there are all kinds of commands to believe
You know, so there you go. I mean believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That's an imperative
You know
He's command. The Bible says that God
Has commanded all men everywhere to repent and and the context there the repentance is from worshiping false gods or believing in
Idols and you know turning to the true and living God. So yeah, there is a command to be baptized, you know, even which is not
Having anything to do with your salvation, you know something you do after you get saved, but it's a command
I mean, there are all kinds of there's a command to go to church
You know and to assemble together and so forth
So there are a lot of sins of omission that you're doing too by, you know
Not reading the Bible not praying not believing in Christ not going to church not doing all these things
You know, I mean the Bible teaches that were to give 10% of our income unto the Lord, you know, there you go
There's another thing but then as far as sins of commission, you're kind of like well, what have I done?
I mean, I've lied a few times, but there's probably a lot of sins that you probably just don't even know about
Just because you haven't really probably studied the Bible a lot
I mean, I'm sure you're somewhat familiar with it, but still, you know, yeah, there's the basic stealing lying killing
Adultery that's kind of obvious to people but you know, one of the Ten Commandments also thou shalt not covet
Which coveting is when you desire anything that is not yours?
It doesn't seem like it's deserving of an eternity in hell for disobeying that or lying or all these other it seems to me
That if when it comes to sin and the Christian understanding there's big sins and then there's minor sins
These are our big sin. You might be able to argue that if there was someone rapist serial killer pedophile murderer
You know, maybe that person deserves to burn in hell forever
but you're talking someone like me who goes through life trying to be a good person, you know, even giving to charities and
I
Deserve to go to hell just because I lied or you know some other minor thing
I mean, what about blasphemy because I mean blasphemy isn't really minor according to the Bible
See and again this all goes back to just your perspective versus God's perspective and God says in the Bible
You know, my ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts
You know, so I think human logic that kind of disagrees with human logic it's human logic that is unfair
That is totally unjust to someone someone like me to hell for attorney. I don't think it goes against human logic
No, because the thing is it what you're saying goes against human logic that basically God creates you
For his glory you only exist because he created you for a purpose
To fulfill his plan and for his glory and you're just like well, no, I'm just gonna do whatever I want
Whatever I think is right what seems right to me. So think about this. What if you created a machine?
What if you created an artificial intelligence, you know, since we're talking about transhumanism
Mm-hmm, and you created it to do a specific task. Mm-hmm, and it just refused to do it
You would destroy it and make a new one
False whoa, if you you build a car you build a car and you're like
I'm gonna use this car to drive to work every day and then the cars just like no
I'm gonna go where I want to go. It's taking you all these places. You don't even want to go
Yeah, this car is junk
No
If that car was conscious if that car if I created a consciousness such as some robot that I might create in the future
I would not blame that robot for wanting to do its own thing. What a conscious person
What if I buy a dog? Okay, and this dog has one purpose to be a watchdog
And I'm feeding this thing
I paid for this thing and it's supposed to bark when strangers come and this thing is just licking the hand of every
invader
You know, I'm gonna get rid of that dog and get a different one
So, you know God created us for certain purpose get rid of it, but not torture it for eternity in hell
There's a big difference here
You're talking about there's always gonna be a difference because we're using whenever we're using parables and illustrations
Obviously you can't go too deep with it
The point that I'm making though is that there would be
Anger involved if I put a bunch of work into something and then it refuses to do what I wanted it to do
And it's like oh man, I waste my time. Now. Here's you say well, where does this torturing is? Yeah, where does that come in?
It's a it seems like a needless suffering. Yeah, because what's the what's it accomplishing anymore?
Is the person ever gonna is God torturing people in attorney of health for they can so they can well
It's not a correctional facility, it's not a torturing just for the heck of it cruel it's not to rehabilitate them
Mm-hmm, you know for sure. Okay, it's a punishment
Yeah, okay. So you have to just understand that there's the concept of punishment as part of justice
Okay now think about this though. Yeah. Okay. I make a machine. It doesn't do what I wanted it to do
So I throw it away. I create an artificial intelligent. It wants to take over and kill everybody
We're gonna pull the plug on that thing or whatever. Okay, you know use the sci-fi
Illustration, but here's the thing about the Bible. It's more complex than that with God because God
provided this redemption plan through Jesus Christ where he comes and goes through all the suffering and Jesus went to hell and
endured all that suffering
So now it's a question of Jesus endured all the suffering and then we reject that free gift
Okay, that's where the wrath is coming from. You know if you sacrificed your son
You know that someone might be saved and then they rejected that gift there you'd be very angry
Let's say you know and I wouldn't be if I if I was expecting him to understand all that through some book
You know, it's a totally different way
You know, I tell you what you get your own planet you be your own God and then you could do it your way
Know how you would do it because like let's say you are God's would you and would you create hell if you got to be?
God would you free to hell and per torture people like me for eternity? Does that well, here's the thing
I'm not so prideful and arrogant though as to think that I'm qualified to be God
You know, I'm just gonna submit to the real God
But if you whatever he says I'm not gonna fight if you were forced to be God
It's but here's the thing. Of course, I'm gonna be more
Sympathetic
Toward sinful people because I'm so sinful right where I see God so perfect and holy
Try to put yourself in his mind for a second. Yeah, but that's your people for a journey crazy
Yeah, that'd be like if I looked at my dog and said hey try to put yourself in my position
He doesn't
There's a difference you think you can't grasp God's mind and why he does things sir
God God's thoughts the Bible says as the heavens are high above the earth. So God's thoughts are above our thoughts
So for me to sit here and be so prideful and arrogant is to say well if I were God I'd do X Y and Z
It's like well, who am I? I am my intelligence compared to God's intelligence is nothing, you know
So basically you've committed another sin of pride but to in order to bring it back to transhumanism
Okay, let's say I were to hand you
Okay, basically a box that contained all the technology you need to achieve all of your wildest transhumanist dreams
Okay, it's all all the blueprints are there all the technologies are there and I said listen, you know, you're the custodian of this
I only want you to use it for good
You're the only one who knows this information put this into practice for the better. You would screw it up
You'd screw up this whole world
Okay
Because you'd be like, oh let's end all suffering and then you'd create all these monsters
And everybody would be evil because they're not suffering anymore
And you you create these horrible people that live forever and these horrible machines that would take over and kill us all and everything
Because man is not smart enough to be God
so we need to just stay in our place here as humans and let God be God and
We be his servants
I think I'd be a very good God. I'm sure you do think that I want to be why do you?
You know, there are people right now
who basically think that they're qualified to rule this world and
You know create a global government
where basically
They call the shots and and put an end to all the different nation states and have a one-world government
You know the new world order, right? Yeah. Now are these good people or bad people? I
Think that I mean that sounds like a good plan to me
Yeah, but they're evil people because of the fact that by nature evil people are drawn to positions of power
You know evil people like to control other people and be in positions about well, okay also good people
You know, but but here's the thing. You're making a face about it. But let's look around the world today
Let's look around the world at all the world leaders. Okay, our most some good or bad. Okay, because
Evil people
They love to gravitate toward these positions where they get all this glory and where they can play God and and manipulate people
I personally you know am
libertarian leaning in my political views
Because I believe in as minimal a government as possible because I feel like whenever the government does anything they screw it up and the more
Power you give them the more things are going to be screwed up and the most totalitarian
And authoritarian governments throughout history have been the most screwed up places and the place where there was the most freedom
Were the places where things were well, you know these engineered economies these planned economies
And and you know you look at
Communist China Soviet Union, you know, they wanted to succeed right? They wanted to be the superpowers
They wanted to be greater than the United States, but did it work? No because when you tamper with
God's plan you screw it up and you know, whether it's the five-year plan of
Stalin or you know the great leap forward. Oh, yeah, we're gonna fix everything
We're gonna organize everybody but they screwed it up. People are starving to death by the millions it all fell apart
whereas when you give people freedom and
Let things basically just happen organically according to God's design
Then people are able to feed themselves and things are able to go well, so this idea of a global government
Well, we'll think about this
What if you lived in a country run by the people though a global government run by the government run by the people which people?
democracy all of us, you know
Direct democracy is the worst form of government because democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner
Number one and number two is that most people are stupid
So, why would you put the majority in charge when the majority is idiots
okay, so the what I believe the best form of government is is
Extremely minimal government as little government as possible similar almost like anarchy, but just a little bit of please some people call it
Minarchy, I don't even believe in police
Okay, I might be shocking to you
But I I get my views from the Bible and and in the biblical model when God set up the Old
Testamination of Israel they did not have police
basically, what what they had is a citizen the citizens were the the police in a sense everyone's armed and
Basically, there are judges, but that's a whole nother topic. That's that's very deep to go into all that but my point being is
That let's say you live in a country where things are really bad
You know, you're living in the Soviet Union you're living in North Korea, you know, you're living in Communist China
Well, your goal is to get out of there and go somewhere better, right?
I mean, that's why a lot of people are leaving Mexico and coming up here because
Things aren't as good down there and they want to get up here where things are a little bit better, right?
And it makes sense. I mean if I were living in a messed up place
I went but here's the problem with this global government when it goes bad. There's nowhere to go
I mean think about that you got nowhere to flee to I mean, you know
Why did our ancestors come over to the United States in the first place to get out of Europe?
They didn't like the way things were going over there. They wanted freedom. They wanted to start over somewhere
Well, if everybody's under the same government and it goes bad, which it inevitably will like every government always goes bad
Well, then there's nowhere to go. You're stuck in it. It's it becomes a prison planet
How do you stop all the you know, the criminals? I'm not trying to police and not government
I'm not trying to stop all that stuff. You know, I'm not God
Not and here's thing when the government tries to stop that stuff it gets worse because you're like man
We got to step in and fix this. Okay. What about when the government steps in and wants to end the drug problem?
What do they do make it worse? Oh
We're gonna stop crime. They make it I have to agree with you on that one
But I do want a big war on drugs is a failure the what what is it?
What about the war on poverty? We got to end poverty. You're gonna let all these people starve to death
So we're gonna have you know, the Great Society and all these welfare programs, what are they created more poverty I
mean look go to the ghettos and see all the derelicts and people that don't work and all the the
Crime and the misery and the suffering in these places, you know and a lot of it is created by government programs
You know those people's ancestors
Many of them were hard-working people good people nice people
Now you see a bunch of criminals and derelicts and so forth
Why because they grew up where nobody's working, you know, they're on welfare and what so
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, you know, and people have all the oh, we're gonna end poverty
We're gonna end suffering and the end of creating more poverty more suffering. Look at backfires
They make drugs illegal more people are on drugs. I've actually watched one of your
Sermons on prisoners. Yeah, I think it's so wrong. What's happening with the prison?
Yeah, and I gotta say I really agree with you on that one and I agree with you on the drug war look
Okay, here's the guy who's one of the greatest men in the Bible David, right?
David is mentioned over a thousand times in the Bible. He's one of the key characters
He's called a man after God's own heart
But what happens when you put him in power as the king of Israel? He does all kinds of bad things
He he's got his own wives his own concubines
But he ends up committing adultery with another man's wife and then killing her husband to cover it up
It's like whoa, you have all these women and you're not content with that
Why did he become such a bad person when he started out such a great guy?
because no man is intended to have that kind of power and the kind of power that we're talking about with global government or
These you know controlling these technologies of so-called transhumanism, you know
It's way more power than just making somebody the king of Israel a small country in the Middle East. Okay. Yeah power corrupts
Yeah, yeah, absolute power corrupts. Absolutely have checks and balances
At least a big part of it be democracy. Otherwise, you have no government. I don't believe I don't believe in democracy
There's that I don't have democracy in my home
This church is not run as a democracy. I don't believe that our government should be run as a democracy
You know in my home, do you think that we vote on things? No, my home is run as a benevolent dictatorship
Cuz I'm the boss. I'm the head of the household, you know, I'm dad and I make the rules
How do you feel about having a robot as as a president or because that way we could program things like stuff
Who's programming it a big team of the top size a big team of the top. So this is an artificial intelligence
Yeah, we're gonna make an artificial intelligence. Yeah, it's hypothetical
Yeah, I created an artificial intelligence that was so, you know
Perfect and not selfish that could actually do a good job running the world where we're all living in this dystopia
Where basically we're all living in North Korea. We're all living in the Soviet Union. We're all living in communist China
We're all living in George Orwell's 1984
Okay
That's what you're that's what's gonna happen when you have just a global government
And then that's one of the things that's going to bring in the second coming of Jesus Christ
So there yeah, there will one day be an evil all-encompassing
Global government that will be run by the Antichrist, you know, and then of course God's gonna put a stop to it
I mean that's Christian eschatology. That's what the Bible teaches is gonna happen in the end times. Okay, and you want it to happen
Whether I want it to happen is irrelevant. That's a silly question because it you know whether I want things to happen
That's what's going to you're not worried because you think you'll go straight to heaven
I don't I know that I'm going to heaven. So I'm not worried about it
No, I don't fear it
but but I just say I want it to happen will know because
It's just I'm acknowledging that it's going to happen whether I want it to or not
Okay, but I'm not gonna side with evil like yeah, let's bring in the evil one world governments. We get closer
You know, I mean let other people do that. Okay. I don't want anything to do with that
I would stand against global government stand against the New World Order
And these type of things, okay, okay
But you're not it doesn't sound like you're worried at all about death, you know, you're going to heaven right no for sure
Absolutely. Yeah
And how do you know for sure? What if you're wrong?
Have you ever asked yourself the question? What if there's not a God what if I've just been you know
lied to the Bible is a sham and
Aren't you a little afraid that if you die?
You're gonna cease to exist because you could be wrong and I could be right and there might be no God
There might be no soul and then when you die, it's game over doesn't that worry you a little bit
No, because now I will say this what you're articulating could be described as just doubt
Right because there's faith and there's doubt do I as a human being ever experience doubt?
Of course because I'm a human being I'm not just spirit
But I'm also flesh and so the sinful nature will experience doubt, of course
but as far as oh, man, I'm afraid that I'm wrong, but first of all, I
Believe the Word of God from the bottom of my head to the top of my feet
I know that God is real. I know that I'm saved
I know that Jesus is my Savior, but the thing about it is though that like even if I were wrong
So to speak which you know, I don't believe is a possibility at all
But I'm saying even according to your paradigm
I'm wrong and and when you die you cease to exist and why would ceasing to exist be anything to fear?
You don't exist anymore, you don't know here's the thing you just give you wouldn't even know you wouldn't even know that you're dead
Oh my gosh
You want to why I would suck ceasing to exist then I think about this so much because I'm an atheist and I think I'm gonna
Die, I don't think I'm gonna go to hell. I think I'm gonna cease to exist and that's what terrifies me
Because
It's life. That's so great. And just to be absent of this amazing thing. It's like the fear of missing out
I don't want to miss out on the beauty of life. Yeah, but I'm gonna go you're talking about how
Nature's not beautiful and everybody's suffering. There's all this pain and stuff
It's like, you know better than nothing even the world even though it's not you ever I don't want nothing yet
So, how do you know?
I don't think you're ever gonna get a study. Thanks. There's nothing before I was born and it was how was it?
It was no fun. Nothing. This sucks. So so here here's the thing you scoff at the idea of hell
but do you think that it's strange that the whole earth is filled with fire and brimstone and that
basically that the crust of the earth is only one to ten miles thick and
That basically everything else is just molten fire and brimstone exactly as the Bible describes hell as being in the heart of the earth and
Below us. I mean, how'd they know that thousands of years ago when they wrote the Bible coincidence?
That's the word of coincidence. They saw a volcano. It just so happens
It just so happens that 99, you know point nine percent of our planet is just a burning fire and brimstone
I mean think about this
Okay, and yet people ignore this elephant in the room of the fact that you know
Ten miles beneath our feet is molten fire and brimstone
Nobody thinks about that hard to extrapolate you see a volcano you're like, oh, that's like, you know
It's coming out of the all the Earth's round. The whole thing is fire and brimstone in the heart of the earth is hell
I know the people in the Bible thought it was flat, right?
I have the four corners that they talked about the four corners of the earth
Again, it's a misunderstanding the word corner the Bible talks about the corners of your head is your head flat
No, it's just a corner also means quadrant and
That's what it means in that sense
The Bible talks about it as the circle of the earth talks about hell being in the heart of the earth
It says that God hangs the earth on nothing
So no the but everything that the Bible teaches is compatible with our understanding of you know that model right there
That glow right there. But here's the thing though about it
Okay, you know if you took an apple and let the skin of the apple represent the crust
Okay, the skin of an apple is thicker than the crust really is in relation to the earth
That's how thin the crust is one to ten miles thick ten miles thick at the thickest and the earth is in
Diameter what like what eight thousand miles or whatever?
Roughly, yeah, okay
So I loved how you were doubting and I left how much skepticism and doubt you had for mind uploading
Because I feel the same way and let's talk about I don't doubt
I don't doubt that if things were to allow to run their course that if you uploaded the mind you could
Look at it read it or you know, I just don't think that it would be you
Yeah, I'm the same way but but here's the thing. What about somebody's privacy?
I mean doesn't it creep you out to have somebody just read your mind?
Yes, I mean it whoa. Yeah, it's like the ultimate invasion of privacy. Yeah, I mean, you know people don't even like
People to know what's on their laptop or did you know their smartphone is spying on them or whatever?
But going into the mind is the ultimate we'd have to set up a really good really good security
Systems, what a joke though all these checks and balances
It's such a joke because the government screws up everything that they do and you think they're just gonna be so good at handling
It's pretty ridiculous a lot of ways. It could go bad. I agree. Yeah, your technology is slippery
And it's a lot of dangerous we have to we have to be aware of
But let's talk about doubt the reason I brought that up is how much doubt you had over the mind uploading
I just feel like you your whole philosophy that you're so trusting of the Bible
Just like you're not even willing to doubt it and now I'm not doubt is like the cornerstone
I think of a good philosopher. They're supposed to doubt everything and be skeptical and I'm not a good philosopher
I'm a good Christian. So it's like it's like it's like you're giving up your own
Logic and philosophical mind just in exchange for well, I'm gonna believe whatever this book says
Yeah, but that's like saying well, you know
You're you're learning all this math, but you need to be willing to go back and revisit whether 2 plus 2 really is 4
You know, it's like once you adapt but once you've established something as a concrete fact you move on, you know part of learning is
That you know something, you know that you know it and then you move forward
Okay, you build on the knowledge that you already have you don't just keep going back and revisiting what if your
You don't get anywhere but yours but you're really messed up if your whole core foundational was founded on something wrong
That's why I have the right foundation. How do you know you're so certain but it's I'm very I'm quite certain
How do you know that? How do you know that you're humble? I certainly don't know that
Yeah, so I might be right you could be right
I could be right that that all the fire and brimstone is not there by accident. It's hell you could be right
See, I'm I have the humble position. I'm saying I don't know. I'm you could be right
You're you're sitting over there kind of arrogant saying I know I'm right. I know you're wrong
I know, you know, you're not you have the humble position of saying that you'd be a better God than God himself
The humble position of thinking that if I handed you all the technology of transhumanism
That you would be able to just turn this world into a wonderful place. Okay, I'm not saying I know for sure
I would I'm humbling myself before God see
I don't think it's prideful for me to say hey the Bible's God's Word. It's settled
I believe it because aren't I deferring to God at that point?
I mean, how is that pride to say, you know, what God's Word is the truth and I'm not smarter than God
So I'm not gonna question it. That's not pride. I mean, how's that arrogant? Well
It's a well, it's gullible. It's not not doubting. It's not doubting
Yeah, but gullible is when you believe something stupid
But see if I'm not believing something that's stupid
I'm believing something that is the most amazing book ever written even people who don't even believe the Bible
Acknowledge that it's one of the greatest books ever written. So it's not like I'm just believing
Everything I read or believing the next thing that came on. I mean, this is an amazing book
So I'm I'm putting my faith in something that that really is worthy. That's not being gold
I mean that's like calling someone gullible if they believe anything if you believe anything anyone ever tells you your goal
No gullible is when you believe stupid things that have no basis and there's a lot of basis for me to believe the Bible
There's a lot of reasons why I believe in it. What's the biggest reason why you believe in the Bible because I
I don't see any reason why I should believe the Bible and I don't know. How do I know that? It's of course historical
How do I even know that Jesus existed for real? I don't
What's the last reason you have why is the thing leave the Bible I
The best reason that I have and in fact, I would say, you know, the only evidence for the Bible is the Bible itself
You know because the Bible is such an amazing book and the Bible says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God
So where does my faith come from?
Hearing God's Word and the power of God's Word is why I believe in it. I believe in the Bible because it has power
The words are powerful
Unlike any other words, it's like the people who were sent to arrest Jesus
They went back to their superiors and they're like, why didn't you arrest him? And they said never man spake like this, man
and
they're like they were blown away and they were afraid to arrest him because they
Were so taken in by his the power of his words, you know, and then they're like are you also deceived?
You know the superiors got angry at them. So, you know God's Word is so amazing and so far
I'll put it this way, you know, if I were to take a diamond and a cubic zirconium and show it to the jeweler
He can tell me which one is made by God and which one is made by man
If I look at a cell phone tower that's made to look like a tree and then I look at a real tree that's made by
God there's a colossal difference between what God has made and what man has made
Okay, and I can look at that tree and know for certainty man did not create this
This is God's handiwork in this tree or this diamond or whatever
Well, when I look at the Bible, it's the handiwork of God
You know
Well, look if I took you outside and you looked at that tree and said D and I asked you do you know for sure
This is a real tree. Are you sure it's not artificial? I would say no, but see here's the thing though
You're not being a good philosopher either then because the thing that you learn in philosophy 101 class
Is that you have to start with some basal assumptions or else all philosophy becomes meaningless
But I know that no, that's not true. You need three basal assumptions
Philosophy 101 teaches three basal assumptions not one. Okay, because just one I exist
Yeah, but you also have to have an assumption that number two that what you are experiencing through your five senses is real
That's another basal assumption that's necessary because just the fact that you exist is not enough because you know
What if everything that you're seeing smelling tasting and hearing what if none of it's real?
What if it's all part of a dream or a simulation or you know?
So that's why even a an atheistic philosopher is starting with certain basal assumptions
Okay
Otherwise all of philosophy becomes meaningless of just where if we just question everything
And we have no basis then basically we were just gonna go in circles and get nowhere
You're gonna accomplish nothing you can always you could prepare for all the worst-case scenarios be open to every possibility
Question everything, you know what?
If you're open to every possibility, that's very foolish. Like what if what if
Thomas Edison's trying to make the light bulb and man. He's just open to every possibility for the filament
You know, he's never gonna get to the right one. He's gonna rule out some stuff that he knows. Okay, this isn't gonna work
And get down to some stuff that might work
Okay, you have to you have to build parameters of thinking and say hey, okay
You know, I know two plus two is four and and you got to settle that
You can't just spend the rest of your life in kindergarten math class, you know, you settle it
Okay, look two plus two is four. I know that now I can move forward into algebra calculus, etc
But if we're constantly going back and just read I don't know
I mean, I mean is PI really, you know, three point one four or whatever, you know, I don't know is is is
It's good to ask that every now and then it is you know
The the the the a squared plus B squared does it really equal C squared?
You know, we're just wasting time going back and and and reevaluating. I think you should be open every possibility, but then you
What's according to what's most likely you kind of focus in on those what's most likely but you don't get rid of you
Say well, I know those things. Oh, yeah. I want to ask you. Okay Paul the Apostle. Yeah, you think you know that you're saved
Well Paul the Apostle, how do you just explain this verse?
He said the man who says he knows the thing does not yet know as he ought to know
So here you are saying I know I'm saved
I know I'm going to have it in Paul saying the man who says he knows the thing does not yet
No as he ought to know it sounds like he's saying he yeah, but see this is this is taking a verse
You know totally out of context
misquoting it
You know and just basically applying it in a way that was never meant to be but because what about all the times that the Apostle
Paul said things like, you know, we know
That if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved we have a building not made with hands eternal in
The heavens, you know
We are confident and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord
If you looked up all the times that Paul said we know and I know and we know there's a ton of time
When he says if any man think he know anything, okay, he's talking about knowing something
contrary to the Word of God knowing anything outside of the Word of God and basically a person who thinks that their idea is
Greater than what God's idea is, you know, so he's not just saying well if anybody thinks they know anything look
If a person
Said to me
Well, I'm not really sure if 2 plus 2 is 4 I would say that that person is a fool and if a person said
Well, you know, I'm 99.9 percent sure the 2 plus 2 is 4 but I'm always gonna leave open the possibility that it's not I would
Personally deem that person a fool. I think that you know wisdom
Establishes facts and then moves on moves forward with the discussion
You know, I mean and and and and to sit there and well, how do we know this?
How do how do we know that any of us are real?
How do we know we're even really sitting here right now talking, you know, I think that's just vain jangling
You know, it's just foolishness at that point
So I'm not claiming just to kind of wrap up this part of the discussion, you know, I'm not claiming
To be able to prove scientifically that the Bible is true. Of course not
I'm not claiming to be able to prove in any way that the Bible is true
Because we have to believe the Bible by faith, but it's not a gullible blind faith
It's faith in the power of God's Word, which I think is a great place to hang your hat
Okay, if now you found it if for hypothetically you found out there was no God
What would you do would your life be different because I've heard a lot of Christians say for instance that
There they wouldn't be moral anymore that yeah
The only reason to be moral is because there's a God that's gonna punish you and that if there was no God
They would just go out and rape and pillage and be as evil as they wanted to be
I don't know. Are you in that same camp people? Well, here's the thing
I wouldn't say that I would go out and rape and pillage. Okay, but would I do things differently in my life?
Absolutely. Yes, because you know, for example
Even the Apostle Paul said if in this life only we have hope in Christ were of all men most miserable
He said, you know if there's no resurrection
He said let us eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die
Okay, so obviously you'd live your life different. I'm not saying that I would go out and just oh, yeah
Let's go murder and you know commit adultery and rape and get but here's the thing. Would you live differently?
Of course, you'd live differently
Absolutely, because personally live differently. Would you be more hedonistic? What kind of things would you do that? You're not doing now?
Well, I mean I wouldn't be mad. I certainly wouldn't be pastoring a church. Uh-huh, you know
I mean, what would be the point? You know, yeah, I'll get a different job because it did be it'd be
Ridiculous at that point, but you know
I don't want to sit here and just delve into everything I would do if I didn't
Because I do believe you know, I do believe the Word of God is true
So it's it's you know, I think hypotheticals can sometimes be silly or meaningless, but like what did to answer your question?
Yeah, I would change the way I live my life
And I would have different values I guess really right now I'm living my life where I'm valuing that which is eternal, huh?
Well, if if all we have is this light then you would put more value on that which is temporal
Yeah, you know it maybe I join your you know
Transhumanist movement because you want to live forever physically, and I'm just kidding
If you had no hope of heaven you'd probably be more concerned about extending your physical life
Absolutely if if you if you
Did not believe in the Bible you don't believe in Jesus. You don't believe that he has eternal life
Then obviously, you know, you could be motivated to go find it somewhere else
I'm not motivated to find it somewhere else because I believe that Jesus is the way the truth in the life
Yeah, and you might be surprised to hear this, but I've talked to a lot of my fellow atheists
Mm-hmm, and even they don't want to live forever. They don't care about they don't care if they die and cease to exist
It doesn't even but that doesn't surprise me at all because like I said
It's ceasing to exist. Isn't that scary of a thought now going to hell is a very scary thought
Seizing to exist is very scary. Yes. I mean, it's horrible. It's painless. You can never have fun ever again
You're missing out forever. It doesn't bother you missing out on what if fun hold on if why if atheism is the legitimate
Philosophy here. Okay, then no life has no meaning if we're animals
We might as well be a plant our life has no meaning. We we live we die
No one remembers us. No one knows us. I mean, what's the point?
I agree with you if you die all meaning I agree that life from an atheist perspective
We should see it as meaningless if we die and cease to exist
It has to end because for example and this is now we're gonna go real deep okay, okay into you know
The whole atheist paradigm. Okay, but what about the fact that those who believe in the so-called Big Bang and evolution?
You know, they have their own theories about the end of the universe as we know it. Mm-hmm
Okay, because you know, obviously we believe in the Bible and the book of Revelation and all those things but you know according to this
Scientific quota, you know, I believe it's what the Bible calls science falsely so called but according to this evolution Big Bang paradigm
You know the world's gonna end in one of a few different ways, you know
One of them is the you know, the heat death is one which basically is is you know
Everything's just gonna run out of steam as it were
Okay, or there's what's known as the big crunch
Right, which is sort of like the opposite of the Big Bang because if everything has gravity and everything's pulling
Eventually everything would be pulled back in
To that, you know
Infinitesimally small point and then there would be another Big Bang and it would all start over again
Okay, and they even have theories about you know
how many billion years that's gonna take and whatever and what's interesting about that is that there are a few different camps of on that philosophy as
well of
you know, some of them say well when it explodes it's gonna explode the exact same way that it exploded last time and
We're gonna be having this exact same conversation. I guess it's gonna be 30 billion years from now
Yeah, the exact conversation we're having right now
We we had this conversation 30 billion years ago and it went exactly the same way
It's going right now and we're gonna do this and we and we're gonna keep doing this. All right, which I think is
Bizarre and stupid but see I think the whole Big Bang and evolution is bizarre and stupid
I think the whole thing is ridiculous and flies in the face of everything that we know
But then there's another philosophy that says that there's a certain amount of randomness
because if you think about it if supposedly the Big Bang came from all matter being crammed into one point at
An infinitely small size with an infinite amount of energy and then it exploded
Then it should explode the exact same way that it exploded last time according to that logic
But then some people say that there's an element of randomness in the universe that that's one of the laws of nature
And so things would not go exactly the same
That as they went last time
Okay, but to me it's so bizarre that anybody actually believes in you yes, you know
Morality just I want to ask you a little bit about the morality issue
You think it's fair and just that
You you think Christians like yourself once they've always saved. I know you believe once they've always have the big thing big time
Yeah
You think someone like yourself can go out there and rape murder and pillage and that there's nothing you can do to lose your salvation
That doesn't sound like you even have a lot of fear of God, which I thought that was supposed to be a Christian teaching
You could do anything we believe that if we sin after we're saved that our punishment will come in this life
So we're not saying that there's going to be no consequences
We're just saying you're not going to lose your salvation to go to hell, but that you'll be punished in this life
All right. This has been a great interview with Steven Anderson. Can you give your links or anything?
I'll put him in the description. Yeah, you know faithful word Baptist org. Just just go to YouTube and search faithful word Baptist Church
You
Heart yeah, just other
artificial
components and keep the brain
That's my personal strategy. But then again with the brain is that isn't the brain gonna wear out though? I don't know
I mean what you know, let's say you make everything else durable and and and
permanent
Will the brain ever just eventually run out, you know, obviously the way it plays out now is that somebody's heart gives out or other?
Processes in the body fail
But if those other processes were extended how long does a brain last?
It's a valid question. Yeah, and I'd be willing to bet it's probably not forever
Yeah, we probably need some kind of other
intervention to keep the brain healthy
Maybe going there with nanobots and clean up the damage or just some way to keep it some way to restore it. Yeah, and then
basically
You know if if basically these type of things were to to be implemented fear, you know
Just theoretically hypothetically this happened and that you know
The second coming of Christ has not yet taken place
Then that would just show that I was wrong when I said that God would put a stop to things before that happened
You know, I mean it wouldn't make me lose faith in the Bible or or lose faith in the eventual second coming of Jesus Christ
It would just mean that I was wrong on that particular theory. Mm-hmm. Okay. What if do you think that?
It's your duty to like stop any of these technologies or do you want them? Would you want to just let them go?
Well, I don't really think it's any of my business, you know to try to stop these type of technologies now when it comes to the
The genetic modification though
That is something that I would have
Concerns about and fears about and and want to put a stop to okay. That's the train of thought that I lost a little bit earlier
That's what I was thinking of actually it would be a third pathway besides the you know
the downloading as it were besides the replacing of
body parts that would wax old with permanent body parts, but but the third pathway would be a
Tampering with the DNA, you know a turning off of this gene or that gene or a splicing of sorts
You know, that's the one that would be scary because there's already genetic modification going on in the realm speech
So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth and they left off to build the city
So here again man is achieving something that God doesn't want him to cheat going beyond a
Certain boundary that God has put on man and God puts a stop to it. So my perspective on this is that before?
Mankind could ever get to
These levels of technology where he's achieving a godlike status
Okay of being able to live forever in any capacity or even to be able to create
You know artificial intelligence in the sense of you know conscious
sentient
You know
beings in the form of you know computers I
Believe that before that God will put a stop to it
And and the way I think that's gonna happen is just that you know
We know from the Bible that there's going to be the the events of the end times the tribulation the second coming of Jesus Christ
So my perspective on this is a Bible believing Christian is that the end of the world as the Bible calls it will just take
place
before man
Reaches these levels of technology. Okay
Now aside from the the style of transhumanism that that guy in the airplane
talked to me about as far as you know taking the contents of your brain and moving it to another vessel and
And as I said before I don't believe that the the soul would go with it, you know at best
It'd be a machine that thought it was you but it wouldn't really be you that's my opinion on that
But actually I actually agree with you
Okay
I think in the future
They'll probably be a bunch of machines pretending to be like their original person and then his mind uploaded a machine
But it's not really them. Yeah, it's not really them
Well, and see we I believe in the soul the spirit, you know, which is beyond just the flesh here
Okay, but then another style of transhumanism would be to you know
leave your existing brain in place because obviously that's the seat of our
Thought and consciousness and basically to replace other body parts
With a body part that would not wax old, you know, for example
Obviously, you know an artificial take on it is
This though, you know, I know that right now there's not a computer that's as powerful as the human mind
I mean the human mind is the most powerful
processor on this planet
but the scientists and people are predicting that eventually they could develop a computer as
Powerful as the human mind and then more powerful than the human mind
But where I would approach this from a biblical
Perspective, you know, I would point to a few scriptures in Genesis. Okay, first of all in Genesis chapter 3
It's right at the very beginning of the Bible
After Adam and Eve have ever eaten the forbidden fruit
This is what God says in verse 22 of chapter 3 the Lord God said behold
the man is become as one of us to no good and evil and
Now lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever
Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken
So he drove out the man and he placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherry vims and a flaming sword
Which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life?
So in this story, basically, you know when mankind is to a point where he's achieving a you know
godlike status
God puts a stop to it and says he's not gonna allow God
He's not gonna allow man to understand good and evil in the way that he does and live forever
So he basically kicks him out of the Garden of Eden just to withhold him from having eternal life
Then just a few chapters later. There's a story of the Tower of Babel in Genesis chapter 11
okay, and this is after Noah after the flood and everything and mankind is united and
They have built a city and they're building this tower to reach unto heaven and so forth
and here's what God says in Genesis chapter 11 verse 5 and the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the
children of men builded and the Lord said behold the people is one and
they have all one language and this they began to do and then listen this next phrase and
Now nothing will be restrained from them
Which they have imagined to do
Go to let us go down and they're confound their language that they may not understand one another so I
Was thinking maybe I should give my thoughts on transhumanism
Transhumanism what are your general thoughts of transhumanism? What do you know about it?
And well my understanding of transhumanism is that basically it involves using technology to
transcend our
Limitations as human beings and most of the time when I've heard people discuss transhumanism
They were talking about life extension even to the point of living forever
Physically on this earth because obviously we as human beings don't have that physical capability
But there are people who think that technology could be used to achieve that
Now the first time that I ever heard about transhumanism
I was actually sitting on an airplane with a guy who was really into it
He had magazines and things that that had to do with it
and this is about three or four years ago and the thing that we were discussing was the idea of basically
scanning someone's brain and
taking all the data from their brain because obviously our brain works on electric impulses and
If there would be a way to basically, you know
read someone's mind scan their brain electronically and
Then put that data into like some kind of a hard drive some kind of a storage device and obviously
it sounds crazy and far-fetched, but you know, obviously that's where the technology is going in a sense because
Even in our film after the tribulation
We briefly touch on the fact that the brain scan technology is rapidly advancing
Where people can think about things and then it could you know
Literally write words on a computer screen or make an image come on a computer screen just based on their thoughts
so
The theory was that if this were to keep progressing you could just basically take the entire contents of someone's brain all their memories
everything about the way they think and then transfer that to a hard drive and store that and
Then you know to take it even further would be to like take that information and then like upload it
Into like an Android or something, you know
This is what this guy was talking about as a way to achieve
Immortality because we've taken everything out of you and then put it into another vessel as it were. Okay
Now I don't believe we're ever gonna achieve that but I'm just telling you this is what the guy
explained to me on the airplane, okay, and
The thing that I thought about with that is that you know
Let's say you really could do that just theoretically if you took all the information from someone's brain and put it into a machine
Like a robot or an Android, you know, would that be you because they're saying this is immortality
But I don't obviously I don't believe that it would be because what you could create at best would be
you know a machine that thinks it's you because it has all the memories that you have and
It has your proclivities and it and it acts like you and maybe even someone else could think it's you
But would it be you but then there's another question that goes even deeper than that. Is that
You know this thing this machine would not be conscious
So could it wouldn't even really think it's you does it even have any consciousness?
to think anything at all or is it just going through the motions of
Acting how you would act and doing what you would do. You can see yes. Yeah, okay
but then there's another question beyond that of
Okay, let's say that you could you know
Take all the contents of someone's brain and then put it into a machine and then that machine even were to have a consciousness
Where it thinks it's you, okay
Then the question is, you know, would that have any free will?
Because of the fact that you know, I believe that we as human beings have free will
But that that would come from the soul
Whereas could a machine actually have free will you know, I don't think so
So I don't think a machine could have consciousness number one
And I don't think that a machine could have free will either because that's two different issues right there
Okay, because let's say you program this thing to be
Like you then it would just let's say continue in the patterns that you've lived up until that point
But could it make new decisions and and take new pathways and routes, you know, is that would be a different issue
so yeah, so my