There is, I believe, a lunatic pastor who claims to be a Christian who has put out his
agenda that believes it's supportive of this massacre in Orlando last week.
He claims to be a Christian.
I call him what he is, and there's nothing wrong with that.
He does not speak for all Christians.
Nothing wrong with that.
He does not speak for all Christians.
Members of other Christian denominations and other faiths, and no faith at all, came out
to protest against him to make it explicitly clear.
We will continue the conversation.
We've got a great guest coming up.
I think you'll be intrigued.
You're going to hear from a very controversial pastor right after this.
Today, you've got Christians saying, you know, sodomites are welcome in, pedophiles are...
I mean, I know Baptist churches in Sacramento that are harboring pedophiles right now and
just lying to their people and just not, you know, it's like one deacon, one pastor knows
about it.
And look, churches that are doing that are putting those children in danger.
And at Verity Baptist Church, we don't allow no pedophile, no sodomite, none of them are
welcome here.
We don't want them around us.
We don't want them around our kids.
You say, don't you think this is going to, you know, affect your church?
I care more about our children than trying to get a crowd here.
I care more about protecting young people that need protecting.
By the way, that's why we don't separate them from their parents.
Welcome back.
Thanks for staying on board.
John McGinnis in for Tom Sullivan.
Tom, we'll be back tomorrow.
What you just heard was the sermon of Pastor Roger Jimenez in Sacramento, the day of the
Orlando massacre.
And we have Pastor Jimenez on the phone.
Pastor Jimenez, good afternoon.
Welcome to the conversation.
Good afternoon.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
And thanks for taking time and answering some questions.
I noticed, first of all, that you first indicated that, in fact, your first opening on this
as I have it was, and I quote, are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?
Is that, do you see all of those people that were killed and shot and otherwise harmed
in that massacre in Orlando as pedophiles?
Well, I take the view that the Word of God gives me.
I am a Bible-believing Christian, so I allow the Bible to basically shape my form.
Do you lump pedophilia in with homosexuality?
Do you see it as one and the same?
Well, the reason that I started to say that is because the Bible shows homosexuals as
predators.
Every time the Bible brings up asodomite, they're trying to rape somebody, violate somebody,
hurt somebody.
Pedophilia is unnatural, and so is sodomy, so yes, I do lump them in as the same.
Okay, I'm stumped by that.
I see a clear distinction between consenting adults and pedophilia, which of course is
the abuse of children, and it's actually not even every person who seeks to abuse a child
is a pedophile.
It's a unique component within that demographic, but let me ask the question about what seems
to be a celebration of the idea of 49 people being murdered and another 53 seriously injured
in that event and some level of praise or appreciation.
Do you not see through God's eyes the idea of a good and loving God that first of all
doesn't judge, that leaves judgment to God and treats people on this earth as our brothers
and sisters and treats them right?
How do you reconcile that when you seem very, very pleased by the notion of these people
being murdered?
They're being taken from their families, and by the way, not everybody that was there,
not everybody that was injured or killed was gay to begin with.
How do you reconcile that?
Let me go ahead and explain my position.
The reason I even wanted to come on the radio today is just to say that the media obviously
has an agenda.
They've got to create news, they've got to have something to talk about, and they've
taken the sermon and completely broadcast it out of context.
I'm hearing reports, I mean, I've heard it with my own ears and seen it, where broadcasters
are going on TV saying, Pastor says it's okay to kill gay people.
Well, that's not what I said.
I have it right here.
You said, are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?
No, I think that's great.
I think that helps society.
I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer than I defend that, Pastor, because I can't
get there.
Help me understand how you can think that's right, especially through the eyes of a man
of God.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't regret anything that I said or take back anything that I said, but what I didn't
say is that we should go out and perform violence towards homosexuals.
I've never advocated anyone do any form of vigilante work.
I've never said that we should go do it ourselves.
Are you going to let me answer that question?
Yeah, but I'm not going to let you burn up all the clock with things that don't make
sense.
Explain this to me.
Well, I mean, here's the thing.
Here's what I want to say.
The media—and you're proving this right now—has an agenda to make things look a
certain way.
The Sacramento Bee today reporting that we had 75 people in church when we actually had
300.
You know, KCRA reporting that we shut our doors and basically shut the service down
when we had almost 300 people there supporting us.
Yeah, I'll gladly give you an opportunity to say all that.
In fact, if you want, we're going to have to—
So here's the thing.
You know, yes, here's what I believe.
Those are predators.
And I'm not sad about them being put to death because God put the death penalty on homosexuality.
But I never said that we should go out and perform violent acts, and I never said that
we should be trying to take over the government or trying to get this to be something that
we do.
Ours is a spiritual warfare.
We're trying to reach people with the gospel of Christ, absolutely.
But you know, if you ask me, are you sad about it?
I'm not sad about it.
But even just how you worded it, am I celebrating it?
I could care less about it.
Well, you said you're happy.
That sounds like cause for celebration.
You say, and I quote, no, I think that's great.
I think that helps society.
I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight.
Those were your words, Pastor.
I do think Florida is a little safer.
I'm just amazed.
You asked me the question, you asked me the question, do I think they're predators?
Do I think they're pedophiles?
I'm giving you the answer.
Yes, I do.
OK, let me tell you what, I'm going to give you an opportunity here.
We have to we have to break for news.
And I'd like to hold you over and I'll give you a chance to make all the points you want
to make as far as the number of people in the congregation, whether or not you close
the doors.
But I'm going to continue to ask you questions.
Are you good with that?
Well, here's the thing.
I'd be happy to try to explain to you our our position biblically.
I'm going to give you that.
I'm going to give you that opportunity to do it.
That's exactly what I want to give you.
If you hold on, I'll hold you over through the news.
We'll come back and I'll give you as much time as I possibly can.
And I will not interrupt you.
I'll give you a chance to do your best to make your point if you appreciate that.
All right.
If you hang on, we will continue this conversation right after this.
Welcome back.
Thanks for staying on board.
John, to get us in for Tom Sullivan.
Tom's back tomorrow.
Thank you for being part of the conversation this afternoon.
We are engaged in a conversation with Pastor Jimenez.
Thank you very much, Pastor, for holding through the news break.
And I promised that I'd give you time to make your point as it relates to the media coverage.
And if you want to clarify or correct the numbers of people in the congregation yesterday
or whether or not the doors were closed to keep people out, this is your opportunity
to go ahead and explain your perspective.
Yes.
The point that I want to make in regards to the media is that the media has had an agenda
to present the story in a certain way.
And a perfect example of it is just the Sacramento Bee today on the front page reporting we had
75 people in church on Sunday when we had close to 300.
And KCRA is reporting that we closed our doors, that we shut down the service when we had
a complete service, like when we had a complete service like we normally do on Sunday.
And I just want to say, you know, I don't understand why the media has to just flat
out lie when they make statements like I said it's okay to go kill gay people when that's
not what I said.
Let me offer, first of all, as for the numbers, that you had a chance to set that straight.
I'm glad you seized the opportunity to do so.
And I'll give you an opportunity to correct other matters.
But I do go back to what you said and a couple of things come to my mind.
First of all, your words were pretty clear and unequivocal as I see it.
And I'm going to quote you one more time.
This is a direct quote.
And I got it from your YouTube message as well as the text of it in a form of a question.
Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?
No, I think that's great.
I think that helps society.
I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight.
So part of the question that I have out of that is what about the fact that first of
all, do you have people who are suffering the loss of loved ones?
They lost a dear friend, a relative, whatever the case may be.
Do you have any compassion for them out of that?
And if you're quick to conclude that all gay people are pedophiles, first of all, I truly
take exception to that because they're not one of the same.
They're absolutely different.
It's two different phenomenon, homosexuality and pedophilia are absolutely different phenomenon,
different types of behavior, different drives.
You're free to have that opinion, you know, but it's the words, pastor, the words, words,
pastor, the words, the definitions go way, way back before you and I were on this planet.
And so that's one more thing.
Let me let me throw this question at you.
There were many who are thrown to I mean, you haven't I haven't got to answer.
This is a more pressing question.
So I'll let you take this one first.
If you'd be so kind.
You had many young women visiting that place who were not gay.
They were there for whatever reason.
So and again, I don't want to suggest that that I believe it's appropriate to do any
harm to them if they happen to be gay.
But you've got people who are caught up in this that this that that didn't fit the lifestyle
that you seem to disdain.
How do you reconcile that?
What about the first responders, the officers that went in, one of whom took gunfire to
the to the helmet, thank God?
How do you how do you comport that?
Well, let me let me say this.
Number one, I never I never said about any first responders being hurt or injured or
anything.
I understand that.
So don't don't try to put that into that mix.
As far as you know, people being there.
Let me let me go back and answer some of your questions.
Here's the people I feel sorry for because I did hear reports that there were many families
or children were sodomites just because they found out that they had been killed, you know,
and that's how they found out about that they were even involved in that lifestyle.
And, you know, for those people, I do feel I feel I feel terrible for them.
And I can only imagine how, you know, the sorrow they're feeling as far as losing someone
like that.
You know, your question is, what about people in the club or whatever that weren't sodomites?
And here's what the Bible says.
Romans one, which teaches us about how to deal with the subject, says, Who, knowing
the judgment of God, that they which commit such things.
And if you read the passage in this context, it's talking about homosexuality, that they
which commit such things are worthy of death.
That's what the Bible says.
And then it goes on to say this, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that
do them.
So the Bible says that, hey, you're worthy of death if you do these things, and you're
worthy of death if you have pleasure in them.
Do you believe, do you believe, Pastor, that people can change?
You believe it's possible for people to engage in a lifestyle that you disapprove of, and
at some point they may change their ways, and they don't, they don't any longer subscribe
to that lifestyle.
And by the way, let me just make it abundantly clear that I'm not suggesting that they should
be treated that way at any point.
But is it possible, would you be, is there any idea, any benefit of the idea of perhaps
from your capacity praying for their redemption and praying that they live a healthier, better
lifestyle from your perspective, or do you just think it's better that they be killed?
I don't believe, I don't believe that a homosexual can change.
And here's why.
The Bible teaches.
The Bible says that they've been given over to a reprobate mind.
And the word reprobate, I mean, look it up on dictionary.com, which last time I checked
dictionary.com was not a theological website.
You look up the word reprobate, it says morally depraved and without hope of salvation.
The Bible teaches that someone who's been, has, is a reprobate, has been rejected from
God.
So I don't believe they can be, they can be redeemed because God gave them over.
And here's the thing, there are sins that are natural sins that doesn't make them right.
You know, stealing, lying, adultery doesn't make them right.
But there are things that normal people do.
But the Bible talks about things that normal people do.
But the Bible talks about unnatural sins.
It's not natural, according to the Bible, for a man to be attracted to another man in
the same way that it's not natural for a woman to be attracted to another woman in the same
way that it's not natural for a man to be attracted to an adult, be attracted to a child,
all of these in the same category.
If you read the book of Leviticus, God puts all of those in the same category as unnatural
sins.
And he puts the death penalty on all of them.
So you know, when you ask me, and here's the thing, and I know people get frustrated, I
can't believe this.
Hey, I didn't write the Bible.
Yeah, but I think I think you're missing other parts of the Bible and the Levitican culture,
nature of the Bible.
There are other passages that contradict that.
I am not an expert.
I am not a biblical scholar.
But I will say this.
I do believe I also believe, Pastor, I also believe this.
I believe in a God that blesses us with the mind to recognize right from wrong, recognize
good from right from wrong, recognize good from evil, and to absolutely positively recognize
when something is inherently wrong.
And the idea of expressing any satisfaction or glee at the thought, at the notion, at
the knowledge of 49 people being massacred is something I cannot begin to comprehend.
It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
And let me just ask you one final question.
What's the difference between...
No, okay.
Well, hold on a second.
Because you said, I don't know if you said it on the radio or you just said it to me
when people weren't listening, but you said you're giving me as much time to be able to
give my presentation as possible.
And you basically are asking me question after question and not allowing me.
So...
I gave you an opportunity to explain how the media has maligned you, and I'll give you
more time to get back to that.
No, no, no.
That's done.
Go ahead.
I'd like to answer the four other questions you've asked me that you've not allowed me
to answer.
Can I do that?
Go ahead.
But you've got to respect the clock, please.
Pastor, don't go there.
You'll regret it.
I'll cut you off at the knees.
You are...
Go ahead and explain what you want to explain.
I don't know what you thought of it.
A thousand people can show up to church and I don't regret it.
I don't think John McGinnis not liking me is going to cause me to regret that either.
Rest assured that John McGinnis does not like you.
I despise what you put forth.
I think you're misguided.
I don't know how you could possibly believe that what you have put out in the public is
a good message that makes any sense.
I don't think it's godly, not that it's my place to judge you on that, but I'm shocked
and appalled to think that a person who professes to be a man of God...
Can I say this?
You may.
I don't appreciate your message.
Okay.
I'm just kidding.
So here's the point that I want to make, okay?
Today you have all these Christians just coming against me saying, you know, I can't believe
that you would say this.
The fact that all these protesters come out against you proves...
You just made the statement.
Everyone thinks this is wrong, so it must be wrong.
But here's the question I want to ask to people who say they believe the Bible is, did you
know in Luke chapter four that after Jesus preached his very first sermon, they tried
to throw him off a cliff because they didn't like what he said?
Did you know that in Acts chapter seven, after Stephen, the first deacon, preached his first
sermon, they dragged him out of the city and stoned him to death?
But can we get back to the topic of Orlando?
Let me answer the question.
There's no question.
People are asking, you know, everyone thinks this is wrong.
That's just what you said.
You know, everyone thinks this is wrong.
How could it be right?
But here's the thing.
The world has never liked the message of the Bible.
And here's what Jesus said.
You know, all these people say, well, Jesus preached...
Look, this is an exact quote from Jesus.
He said, blessed are ye when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from
their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil for the Son of
Man's sake, rejoice ye in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great
in heaven, for in the life managed are their fathers unto the prophets.
Is there a difference between your beliefs and the beliefs of the terrorists who shot
up the nightclub?
Because they seem to have the same ideology towards...
Well, here's what I don't understand about our society is that they believe that someone
who says, hey, the Bible says that sodomites should be put to death, and if God was the
king and God was in charge of this government, that's what God would do.
And if that's what God says, then I'm okay with that.
We don't live in that government, so we shouldn't go and do that.
We shouldn't violate the laws of our land because the laws of our land aren't following
the laws of God.
But if God had His way in the book that He gave us where He put laws for His nation,
this is what He would do with them.
Somehow saying that is equated to going into a nightclub and killing 50 people.
I mean, you say, how are your beliefs different than the guy that shot 50 people?
How about this?
I've never walked into a nightclub and killed anyone.
But I didn't say you did.
I did not.
Notice that I said beliefs.
Notice that I said beliefs, not actions.
Sorry.
It sounds as though your beliefs are very similar to the beliefs of the person of the
terrorist.
We shall continue the conversation after this.
Welcome back, thanks for standing on board, John, to get us in for Tom Sullivan.
Tom will be back tomorrow, and we do have Pastor Jimenez on the line, and we're going
to take some other calls and kind of share communication on it.
And I need to feel compelled to disclose that I do not have a vast level of biblical knowledge
that we are the product of a higher power.
That inherent in the way we're made up, there's got to be an element of ability to recognize
right from wrong.
And I think there's a fundamental part of our process that we recognize the inherent
evil and wrongfulness of massacring people because we don't share their lifestyle.
And I find that something that's just so fundamental and basic, I cannot begin to imagine somebody
not recognizing that.
We also have Pastor Bill from Auburn who wants to help explain his perspective on the situation.
Pastor Bill, welcome to the conversation, sir.
You're on with John McGinnis as well as Pastor Jimenez.
Bill, are you there, sir?
Pastor Bill, are you there?
Maybe not.
Okay, let's try checking in with Scott in Sacramento.
Scott, good afternoon.
Welcome to the conversation.
Thank you.
I work with Associated Prison Ministry.
We are part of Christian Calvary Center, and in the Bible, Jesus said the only laws that
you're supposed to follow are the Ten Commandments, not the 768 that go along with the Ten Commandments.
Very good.
And the Fifth Commandment would be what, Scott?
What's the Fifth Commandment?
Thou shall not kill.
Okay, thank you very much.
Pastor Jimenez, do you have a response to that?
Well, I would like to ask him, can he read for us?
Can he open his Bible right now and read for us where Jesus said that we're only supposed
to follow the Ten Commandments?
Acts and Romans, hey, Alex, I'm at work right now, and it says that you are to love thy
neighbor, love thyself as you love thy neighbor with all your heart and soul, love thy God,
love God with all your heart and soul, mind, body, covers the first five, covers the first
other five.
Hold on a second.
Did you say your name was Bill?
No.
Scott.
I'm sorry.
Oh, Scott.
Scott.
Bill is the other guy.
Scott, you just said that, okay, I missed.
Where in that verse did Jesus say the Levitical law needs to be thrown out the window?
Only the Jews keep it.
We're Gentiles.
We're not Jews.
Well, I asked you to read me a verse where it says that, and you started saying that
we're supposed to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all
thy mind, and to love thy neighbor as thyself, which I agree with completely, but where in
that quote does it say, by the way, throw the Old Testament out the window?
Because he was asked, what laws do you keep?
And he told us what laws.
And here's what he said.
He said that if you love the Lord thy God with all your heart, with all your soul, with
all your mind, and you love your neighbor as yourself, you will keep the entire law.
You will keep these 10.
No.
Because if you keep the other, then you're the whole lot.
So he didn't say throw the Old Testament out the window.
He said if you follow these two guidelines, you will keep all of it.
Because if you love your neighbor as yourself, you're not going to steal against them.
Hey, Scott, Scott, I appreciate your call, Scott.
Pastor Jimenez, we've got Pastor Bill from Auburn that wants to make a point as well.
Pastor Bill, welcome to the conversation.
I just want to make sure that people understand that Scott said the Bible said something.
And when I asked him to prove it, we're not we're not in a position to to determine that
at this juncture.
Let's get Pastor Bill's perspective.
People are lying about what the Bible says.
They're not out lying.
Pastor Bill, you have the floor, sir.
Thank you, Pastor Jimenez.
So let's make this simple.
Christ did come, Christ fulfilled the law.
Romans 6 clearly teaches, Romans 7 clearly teaches, I'll give you the verses, that we
are no longer under the Mosaic law of the Old Testament.
I could take you to the Old Testament.
And I could show you dozens of places where the death penalty was there for disobedient
children, adultery.
The Mosaic law was meant to administer the nation of Israel in the Old Testament when
God was their leader, it was a theocracy, they were kept separate.
Christ came and said, I'm going to fulfill the law.
And so we're no longer under the Old Testament law.
We are under the law of Christ.
You quoted Romans 1, yes, it says that Gentiles who sin sexually deserve death.
Let me give you a quick education here.
Romans is the book that teaches us...
Hold on a second.
Hold on.
Pastor Bill has the floor.
Let me just finish this.
Romans teaches us how to be saved, and it starts out, and it shows from Romans 1.18
through 3.20, it shows how every man and woman deserves hell because of sin.
All he's doing in Romans 1 there is first bringing the Gentiles under the condemnation
of God.
Then in Romans 2, he brings sinful religious leaders of the time.
Then the Jews under, he summarizes in Romans 3, 10 to 19, how everyone deserves death.
And then the beauty of Christianity comes in in Romans 3.21, it says, but now through
Jesus Christ, God has sent a way to be saved.
And so all of those people that were brought under condemnation there, you quoted Romans
1.32, they all can be saved because of what Christ has done.
None of them is beyond the saving power of Jesus Christ.
So I can go passage after passage.
I'll take you anywhere you want, but I don't know a pastor that's biblical that agrees
with you.
We can't go back to the Old Testament.
We're under the law of Christ.
We have to look at the teachings.
I would have wished that every one of those people that day would have lived because I
would like to share my faith with them, not to see them.
Am I allowed to respond?
Okay, go ahead.
Let's hear you respond, and we'll answer you back.
Okay, Bill.
I just want to ask you a question, if you just, yes or no, does the Old Testament law
teach that homosexuality, God put the death penalty in Old Testament ancient Israel when
God was their king, did God put the death penalty on homosexuality, yes or no?
If you were living at that time in Israel as a Jew, yes.
Not outside of Israel, but only for the Jewish nation.
So would you agree with me that when God rules the nation, God would put death penalty
on homosexuality, yes or no?
I can't generalize that.
I can say in the Old Testament, see, you're going extra biblical now.
When God rules the nation and he gave them laws, when God rules the nation and he gave
them laws, did God add to those laws death penalty on homosexuality?
In the Old Testament, not now.
So is it intellectually dishonest to say that when God had the opportunity to structure
the laws of a nation, God put the death penalty on homosexuality, therefore God feels like
they should have the death penalty?
Is it wrong for me to say that?
Yes, because we're not under the Old Testament.
Pastor, we're not under the death penalty.
Is it wrong for me to say that?
Yes, because we're not under the Old Testament.
We're under the law.
Let me ask you a question.
Gentlemen, gentlemen, I appreciate both of you being here this afternoon, but unfortunately
as the clock works, the clock works.