Amen.
All right, well, we're there in Romans chapter number 13.
And like we announced, we've been
going through this series on Sunday mornings
called Money Matters.
And I hope that there are some of you who
are out there listening and taking notes and applying this.
I realize that there are many of you.
And I'm not saying this because I'm mad at you.
I'm actually thanking you.
I realize that there are many of you
that are just enduring through this series.
You don't care about this subject.
And you're just going to go ahead and keep
doing what you're doing.
And that's great.
I appreciate you being here.
But I hope you'll listen, especially this morning,
because I do believe that if there's
any sermon in the series that could change your life as far
as financially, it is today.
What will we talk about today?
And if you remember, several weeks ago,
we started this series called Money Matters.
And we've been learning how to leverage biblical principles
for financial strength and success.
And here's what I know.
Here's what I know.
If you are failing financially, it
is probably because you are violating a financial principle
that God has already given us in scripture.
And God wants us to be financially secure.
And He even wants us to succeed in that area.
We started with a sermon on covetousness,
protect against covetousness.
Then we talked about prioritizing your giving.
Last week, we talked about planning your spending
and budgeting.
And we learned about the fact that, as an American,
you will probably have, in your working lifetime,
a million to $2 million go through your hands.
And how you manage that and how you steward that
will definitely be a factor in how you succeed financially.
Today, I want to speak to you on the subject
of paying your debt.
And I want to talk about debt-free living.
And I want you to notice that this is found in scripture.
We're going to look at a lot of scriptures this morning.
And I want to begin this morning by saying this.
So here's what I'm going to do, especially
if you're writing notes, because I want you to write notes.
On the back of your course of the week,
there's a place for you to write things down.
I'm going to give you three statements this morning.
And then at the end, on the third statement,
I'm going to give you seven practical steps to get out
of debt.
So if you'd like to write those down,
I'm just kind of giving you a heads up where we're going.
Number one, if you want to write this down just
to kind of get a theology of debt
or what the Bible teaches about debt,
I want to begin by saying this.
Debt is not sinful.
Now, you're there in Romans 13.
And I want you to notice verse 8.
We'll read the verse, and I'll explain the statement.
Romans 13, 8 says this, Owe no man anything.
Owe no man anything but to love one another,
for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Now, today, there are many Christians
who teach on finances, and they teach on what the Bible teaches.
And some of them teach that debt is sinful, that debt is a sin,
that if you have debt in your life,
you're actually violating a law.
And the verse that they'll cite to make that statement
is this verse here, Romans 13, 8, Owe no man anything.
And though I love Romans 13, 8, and I agree with it,
I do not believe this verse is teaching that debt is sinful.
And I want to begin by just giving that statement
and giving that idea that I don't believe that debt
is sinful.
And I don't believe you're sinning if you are in debt.
And you say, well, what about this verse, Owe no man
anything?
And here's what you need to understand.
You go into debt, you enter into an agreement,
you sign a contract or whatever it might be,
where you commit to make a certain predetermined payment
until that debt is paid off with interest, of course.
And as long as you are current on your payments,
you do not owe anything.
Does that make sense?
When you get a mortgage, you don't owe $200,000
that first month.
You owe the amount you agreed to pay every month
for the next 30 years or whatever it is.
So I do believe that we as Christians
should owe no man anything.
But I don't believe that debt means you owe.
It does mean you owe when you're not making your payments.
It does mean you owe when you're not fulfilling the agreement
that you have made.
But I don't believe that this verse
teaches that debt is sin.
So I want to begin by just alleviating that.
For some of you are like, OK, good.
I might like the sermon.
Hold on.
It's just point number one.
But debt is not sinful.
And here's what I mean by that.
It's not morally wrong to have debt.
However, and I'd like you to go to the book of Psalms
there in your Bible, because you just open up right
in the center.
You're more than likely to follow.
In the book of Psalms, Psalm 37, let me say this.
Just because debt is not sinful, we
need to understand this, that we as Christians
should maintain a good testimony and not
be behind on our payments.
So as a Christian, you should strive
to be current on your payments and be paying and keeping
your word and doing the things that you've agreed.
You should pay what you owe.
Psalm 37, notice verse 21.
Psalm 37 and verse 21, the Bible says this.
The wicked borroweth and payeth not again.
Do you see that?
The wicked borroweth and payeth not again.
But the righteous showeth mercy and giveth.
So here the Bible tells us that it
is a characteristic of a wicked person
to borrow and to not pay what they had borrowed.
So we as Christians should maintain a good testimony
and not be behind on our payments.
Go to Ecclesiastes chapter 5.
You're there in Psalms.
You're just going to go past the book of Proverbs
into the book of Ecclesiastes.
Ecclesiastes chapter 5, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes.
Ecclesiastes chapter 5.
And let me say this.
And I realize sometimes when you're talking about finances,
you start stepping on people's toes.
And it can get awkward and it can get difficult.
But let me say this, for this reason,
because we should owe no man anything.
And because we as Christians should
maintain a good testimony and be current on our bills
and pay our bills, for this reason,
bankruptcy should be avoided if at all possible.
Ecclesiastes chapter 5 and verse 5, the Bible says this.
Ecclesiastes 5, 5, it says, better
is it that thou shouldest not vow,
meaning that thou shouldest not make a commitment,
than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
He says, look, it's better for you to not make a commitment
than to make a commitment and then back up on that commitment
and then not pay.
The Bible says better it is that thou shouldest not vow
than thou shouldest vow and not pay.
And look, for this reason, I advise that we as Christians
should avoid bankruptcy.
You say, well, it's legal.
Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.
And if you've made an agreement to take on certain payments,
take on certain debt, you should do what's
in your power to keep your word, to make, if you made a vow,
to pay that vow.
Now let me just say this.
Because I realize in a group this size,
we've got about 200 people here this morning.
Some of you have gone through bankruptcy.
And if that's you, I'm not mad at you.
I'm not trying to pick on you.
But I am trying to help those that
could avoid it in the future.
Because here's what I know.
Bankruptcy is a very emotional and stressful time for people.
In fact, when people are surveyed
as to the most stressful things that happen in their lives,
bankruptcy is right up there with divorce
as the most stressful time in someone's life.
And for this reason, if at all possible,
we want you to live financially secure,
and not only secure, but successful,
so that you can avoid these things.
So I want to begin by saying this.
Debt is not sinful.
It is not morally wrong to have debt.
It is wrong to not keep your vow.
It is wrong to commit to pay and not pay.
It is wrong to fall behind on your payments.
You should make your payments.
You should maintain good testimony.
But as long as you're current on your payments,
I don't believe that debt is sinful.
So debt is not sinful.
With that said, and because some of you are thinking like,
oh, man, I thought this sermon is going to make me feel guilty.
I'm feeling better already.
Let me say this.
Debt is not sinful, but the Bible
is clear that debt is not wise.
Going into debt, or carrying debt, or having debt is not,
let me be clear, and I'm not trying to pick on you,
but it is not a smart thing to do in your life.
You say, why?
Because debt is a burden that keeps you in bondage.
Now, if there are any Ecclesiastes,
go back to the book of Proverbs.
If you head backwards, you've got the book of Proverbs,
Proverbs 22.
Proverbs 22, look at verse number 7.
Proverbs 22 and verse 7.
Debt is a burden that keeps you in bondage.
You say, well, is it a sin?
It's not.
I don't believe it's necessarily a sin.
But just because something is not a sin
does not mean that it's smart.
Just because something is not a sin
does not mean that it is wise.
And debt, though it is not a sin, if you were wondering,
debt is not wise.
You say, why is debt not wise?
Well, let me give you several reasons.
First of all, because debt is a burden that keeps you
in bondage financially.
Debt is a burden that keeps you in bondage.
This is the terminology used by scripture.
Proverbs 22, look at verse 7.
Proverbs 22, 7.
The Bible says this, the rich ruleth over the poor.
Notice the words.
And the borrower is servant to the lender.
The Bible says that when you go into debt,
you put yourself in a position where God would
use this terminology.
You are now a servant.
You are now in bondage.
You are burdened with this financial bondage.
The Bible says the borrower is servant to the lender.
Let me give you another example.
Go to 2 Kings chapter 4.
And I would say this.
And I realized when I preach these sermons,
people always want to argue.
Some of you are arguing in your minds right now.
There's people listening online.
They're already writing their emails.
And I would just say this.
And look, whatever you think about this sermon,
whatever you think about me, just ask yourself this.
If you were honest with yourself and if you looked up
every reference in the Bible that
has to do with debt or borrowing,
will you find a positive reference?
And the answer is no.
Because God does not think very highly of debt.
Because though debt is not a sin, debt is not wise.
You say, why is it not wise?
Because it is a burden that keeps you
in bondage financially.
2 Kings chapter 4, look at verse 1.
2 Kings chapter 4 and verse 1, the Bible says this.
Now there cried a certain woman of the wives
of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha.
2 Kings chapter 4, verse 1.
There cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons
of prophets unto Elisha.
This is a widow.
Her husband has died.
And her husband was in the ministry.
He was a prophet.
Notice what she is saying.
She's talking about her husband.
She's talking to Elisha.
Thy servant, my husband, is dead.
And thou knowest that thy servant did fear the Lord.
So I want you, this was not a sinful man.
This man loved the Lord.
He was in the ministry.
He was serving God alongside with Elisha.
But I want you to notice that this man was not
necessarily financially wise.
Because notice what his widow says.
She says, thy servant, my husband, is dead.
And thou knowest that thy servant did fear the Lord.
And notice, the creditor is come to take unto him my two
sons to be bondmen.
And I just want you to notice that in the Bible,
whenever we're talking about debt,
when we're talking about credit, when
we're talking about owing someone,
though the Bible does not speak of it as a sin,
the Bible does speak at it as not being wise.
And here's why.
Because debt is a burden that keeps you in bondage
financially.
It is meant to keep you as the servant to the lender.
Go to 1 Samuel 22.
You're there in 2 Kings.
You just go backwards past 1 Kings, 2 Samuel, and 1 Samuel.
And here's the truth.
If you thought about, if you thought about,
and we're not going to ask you to say anything out loud
or raise your hand, but if you thought about the amount
of debt that you have, isn't it true
that that is a burden upon your shoulders that is keeping you?
In bondage financially?
The USA Today cited, they did a report
where they cited, they took statistics
from a website called nerdwallet.com
and also from the Federal Reserve.
And here's what they found.
They found that the average American household
has credit card debts of $16,883.
The average American has auto loan debt of $29,539.
The average educated American today
has student loan debt of $50,626.
The average mortgage in the United States of America today
is the balance owed on average is $182,421.
And if this is you, and it's many of you,
and I'm not mad at you, I'm trying to help you.
Because you say, well, how do you know?
Because if you're average, if you're
the average American, you probably
owe something on your vehicle or on your two vehicles.
You probably owe on those plastic pieces of card
that you've got in your wallet.
You probably owe student loans if you went to college.
If you're the average American, you're
probably somewhere between $40,000 and $100,000 in debt,
not including your mortgage.
And if you were honest with yourself,
you would know that this is a burden on you financially.
You see, God says that debt is not wise,
because debt is a burden that keeps you in bondage
financially.
But let me say this.
Debt is also a burden that keeps you discouraged financially.
Are you there in First Samuel 22?
Notice verse 2.
We find a group of people here that is very discouraged.
First Samuel 22, 2, the Bible says this,
and everyone that was in distress.
These are the men that are coming out to follow David,
when David is ran out of town by Saul.
And the Bible says this, and everyone that was in distress.
The word distress means extreme anxiety.
It says, and everyone that was in distress,
and everyone that was in debt, that's money owed,
and everyone that was discontented,
meaning dissatisfied, not happy,
gathered themselves unto him, referring to David.
And I just want you to notice, I think
it's interesting that God talks about people that aren't happy.
He says, they're distressed, they're in debt,
they're discontented.
They're distressed, they're under extreme anxiety,
they're very nervous, they owe money, and they're not happy.
They're dissatisfied.
And I believe that God puts those together,
because they have to do with each other.
Debt is a burden that keeps people discouraged.
In fact, most of the time that people
have sort of financial arguments with their spouse,
it has to do with debt.
And 50% of marriages, we're told,
end as a result of fighting over finances.
So here's all I'm telling you, is that debt, though it is not
a sin, you say, well, faster, is it a sin for me to be in debt?
Absolutely not.
I don't think it's a sin.
But I will tell you this, it's not wise.
It's not smart.
Because debt is a burden that is meant to keep you
in bondage financially.
And debt is a burden that keeps you discouraged financially.
And let me say this, debt is a burden.
Go to Deuteronomy 28.
If you go backwards, you'll go past Ruth, Judges, Joshua,
Deuteronomy.
Past Ruth, Judges, Joshua, Deuteronomy.
Let me say this, debt is a burden
that is meant to keep you down.
Debt is a burden that is meant to keep you
down or behind financially.
And don't we like to blame others for our mistakes, right?
Why do you want to talk about the man?
The man who's keeping me down.
You're the man that's keeping you down.
The man who's keeping me down.
No, your credit cards are keeping you down.
Your student loans are keeping you down.
It is your car notes that are keeping you down.
Because the Bible says that debt, though it's not a sin,
it is not wise.
Because debt is a burden that keeps you down and behind
financially.
Are you there in Deuteronomy 28?
In Deuteronomy 28, God is speaking to children in Israel
about blessings and cursings.
He's telling them, if you follow what I tell you to do,
you'll live a blessed life.
And if you go against what I tell you to do,
you'll live a cursed life.
And I want you to notice what he says about debt.
Deuteronomy 28, verse 12, the Lord
shall open unto thee his good treasure.
This is the blessing.
He says, follow what I'm telling you.
Follow biblical principles, and then you will be blessed.
The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven
to give the rain unto the land in a season,
and to bless all the work of thine hand.
And notice, thou shalt lend unto many nations,
and thou shalt not borrow.
And again, I just want you to understand,
when God speaks of blessing in regards to debt,
he says, you're the lender, not the borrower.
He said, thou shalt lend unto many nations,
and thou shalt not borrow.
That's the position of blessing according to God.
Verse 13, and the Lord shall make thee, notice,
the head and not the tail.
The tail is referring to the rear end.
And he says, look, you want to be the head
or you want to be the backside?
Well, it depends on what side of the equation you're on.
Are you the lender or are you the borrower?
Because if you want to be ahead, if you don't want to be behind,
don't be the borrower.
He says, and the Lord shall make thee the head and not
the tail, and thou shalt be above only,
and thou shalt not be beneath.
You say, why is he using this terminology?
Here's why.
Because debt is a burden that is meant to keep you down
and behind, and sometimes even out.
If thou harken unto the commandments of the Lord thy
God, which I commanded thee this day to observe and to do them.
And then notice what he says if you skip down to verse 43
under the cursing section.
He says, and if you don't listen to what I have to say,
and if you go ahead and just do what the average American is
doing, and if you go ahead and listen to conventional wisdom,
and if you don't take heed to the biblical principles,
Deuteronomy 28, 43, he says, the stranger that is within thee
shall get up above thee.
Very high.
And thou shalt come down very low.
And you say, well, what does that mean?
Here's what it means.
He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him.
He shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
You say, why does the Bible say this?
Here's why the Bible says this.
Because debt is a burden that is meant to keep you down.
Debt is a burden that is meant to keep you in bondage.
Debt is a burden that is meant to keep
you discouraged financially.
And this is the reason that many people live paycheck to paycheck.
People live paycheck to paycheck today
because of the fact that they have a lot of debt.
These same people get behind when a financial crisis, even
a small one, happens.
They get their hours cut back.
They lose their jobs.
Some unexpected bill shows up.
They cannot save because there's no money left over after they've
paid all their debt bills.
They cannot change career fields because they cannot afford
the training or afford to cut and pay to transition
into a new job that will eventually pay them more.
Most of this, if not all of this,
could be avoided if they had simply avoided debt.
Debt keeps you down and keeps you
from getting ahead financially.
So I want you to understand this.
Debt is not a sin, but it is not wise.
Debt is a tool that is meant to keep you down,
keep you discouraged, and keep you in financial bondage.
And some of you are thinking this, you're saying,
well, I don't understand.
How is debt doing all these things to me?
And here's why.
Debt is a burden.
Debt is a burden because of the interest paid.
And I just want to give you some examples.
I'm going to read a few things for you,
try to help you understand this.
Maybe I know you're smart.
I know you know this.
Some of you, though, don't.
And for sure, some of the teenagers,
maybe you haven't heard this.
And if I can't help your parents because they're too stubborn
and they think they got it figured out,
then let me at least help you kids, all right?
Debt is a burden that should be avoided.
Debt is not a good thing.
And you say, well, why is that bad?
Because of interest.
And I hope you'll remember this.
It is not in your best interest to pay interest.
I thought that was good.
I made that one up.
Hopefully you'll remember that.
It is not in your best interest to pay interest
because it is the interest of the debt that keeps you down.
Let me give you an example.
If you were to purchase a house for $175,000,
and I realize I don't think houses are being sold
for that amount today, but this is just an example.
If you were to purchase a house for $175,000 at an interest
rate of 5.423%, and you made every payment on time
every month a fixed rate for 30 years,
at the end of those 30 years, you
would pay a total of $345,101.
If no extra payment is made, you will pay $169,984 in interest.
Do you understand what I just said?
You buy a house for $170,000, you get a low fixed rate
for 30 years, and you get the privilege of paying
the bank for that house twice.
$170,000 for the house and $169,000 in interest.
And yet, conventional wisdom says
the debt is a tool that helps you get ahead financially.
Paying twice does not help you get ahead financially.
It helps you get behind.
And by the way, mortgage payments
are some of the best debt that you can get into.
If you finance a car, it's even worse.
You get to pay for that car three to four times.
If you have credit card debts, it's even worse than that.
And here's what I'm trying to help you understand,
is that debt, debt is not smart.
Debt is not wise.
Debt is a tool that is meant to keep you down.
See, credit cards, I'll read for you from this article.
Credit cards sometimes make a purchase hard to pass up.
For example, they make it possible to buy something
for $3,000 and pay just $60 per month until it's paid off.
Most people who maybe cannot afford to purchase a $3,000
item can afford a $60 monthly payment.
But what is often overlooked is how much
you end up paying in interest.
A common mistake people who are new to credit cards often make
is paying just the minimum payment on their credit card
bill.
The small monthly minimum payments
seem insignificant and comfortable in most budgets
until you look closer at what your credit card debt is really
costing you over time.
And I don't want to bore you with this,
but let me just help you.
Some of you, you haven't heard this,
and this is good for you here.
Let's talk about how to calculate the true credit card
debt costs.
I'll keep reading from this article.
If you carry an average daily balance of $3,000 in credit
card debt, your minimum payment will be around $60 a month.
That's assuming a 2% minimum payment requirement.
Some cards may have a much different minimum percentage,
of course.
If the credit card charges a 15% APR, annual percentage rate,
interest could cost you between $400 to $450 per year.
And here's how you figure that out in case you're interested.
You divide your APR by 365 days per year
because it's 15% annual percentage rate.
So if you want to figure out how much they're charging you
for those $3,000 you owe on that credit card,
you take that annual percentage rate, you divide it by 365 days.
That'll give you your daily rate.
That would be for 15% APR, that would be about 0.04%.
You multiply that 0.04% by 30 days per month,
which would give you a 1.2% or 0.012%.
You multiply that percentage by the $3,000 original balance
that you're carrying on that card,
and that'll give you a $36 a month interest.
So you're being charged $36 a month in interest
to carry $3,000 on a credit card.
This is just an example, but if you're
getting a 50% APR, which is a normal credit card rate out
there, with a $60 minimum payment,
$36 goes towards interest each month,
and $24 goes towards your $3,000 credit card balance.
So after you send your first $60 payment to your $3,000 credit
card bill, you will still owe $2,976.
If you only pay your minimum balance due each month,
the 2% or the $25 minimum, it will
take you approximately 16 years to pay off your $3,000 debt.
During those 16 years of making the minimum payments,
you will have paid $3,641 in interest,
turning your $3,000 purchase into a $6,641 purchase,
according to the result from a minimum payment
calculator on creditcard.com.
And whatever you purchase for $3,000
will likely be broken or forgotten before you ever
pay that credit card in full.
And here's all I'm telling you.
Here's all I'm telling you.
Debt is not sinful, but debt is not wise.
Debt is not smart.
Debt is a tool that is meant to keep you down.
It is a tool that is meant to keep the bankers rich
and to keep you poor.
It is meant to keep you depressed and discouraged.
It is meant to keep you in financial bondage.
And no matter what the guy at the car lot says,
no matter what the banker at the bank says,
it is not in your best interest to pay interest.
Because interest is a tool that is meant to keep you down.
When you owe on what you own, you
are actually owned by what you owe.
And you will not get ahead financially.
So debt is not simple.
I'm not going to stand up here and tell you that it's morally
wrong for you to have debt or that you're living
in sin for having debt.
But I will say this.
Debt is not wise.
And if you're living in debt, I will stand up here
and lovingly, kindly, as your pastor tell you,
it is not smart.
It is keeping you in bondage.
It is keeping you behind financially.
It is not allowing you to get ahead.
God would say that you're not the head, you're the tail.
Because debt is not smart.
Let me say this, number three, debt is not necessary.
Did you know, and I realize that this is not
what we're taught as Americans, but did you
know that you could live debt-free?
This is not what we're taught, right?
I mean, as soon as a kid turns 18 years old,
they're getting all sorts of letters in the mail telling
them, apply for the student loan, get the student loan.
Everyone else is doing it.
It's great.
It's wonderful.
But did you know that debt is not necessary?
You don't have to live under financial bondage.
Now, let me just say this.
Debt is average.
It's not necessary.
Debt is common.
It's not needed.
Debt is something that most people have,
but it's not something that you are required to live with.
And if you're willing to live debt-free,
you're just going to have to follow the Bible
and live differently.
Now, you would think as a fundamental Baptist,
you'd just kind of be used to that,
because we understand that when it comes to everything else.
We understand that when it comes to separated living.
We're not going to go and live the way the world does.
We understand that when it comes to the Bible.
We understand that when it comes to music.
We understand that when it comes to drugs and alcohol.
We understand that when it comes to worldliness,
that we as Christians are to live differently
than the world, but look, when it comes to finance,
it's the same thing.
We as Christians ought to live differently than the world,
because God has given us biblical principles that
if you leverage them, will not only give you
financial security, but they'll even
produce financial success.
Because debt is not sinful, and debt is not wise,
but debt is not necessary.
It is possible to live debt-free.
Here's what I'd like to do.
I'd like to give you seven steps to get out of debt.
Seven practical steps to get out of debt.
And if you're interested in this,
and you're interested in doing this,
I want you to write these down.
And I want you to put them somewhere
where you'll see them every day.
I want you to put them in your mirror,
or on your refrigerator, or something,
because God has already told us how to do it.
God has given us wisdom to do it.
And I want to give you seven steps to get out of debt.
And here's why.
You say, well, why are you going to give us seven steps
to get out of debt?
Because debt is not necessary, and debt is not wise.
So here's step number one.
Stop borrowing.
Stop borrowing on credit.
Cut the credit card up.
Get rid of it.
Stop it.
Stop the bleeding.
Do not allow your debt to get worse.
You cannot dig your way out of a hole.
Do you understand that?
If you are in a hole, you say, I need to get out of this hole.
You don't keep digging.
You stop digging, because you cannot dig your way out
of a hole.
And you cannot.
Look, our government doesn't understand this.
You cannot borrow your way out of debt.
You cannot go into financial burden and say,
oh, this is going to be a financial success for me.
No.
If you're going to get out of debt, you must stop borrowing.
And let me tell you something, that is odd.
It's peculiar to say, I don't borrow money,
to have somebody approach you when you're at Home Depot
and picking up whatever something you need for your house
or you're at Walmart.
And somebody says, hey, we can get you these solar panels.
And the interest rate is real low.
Oh, I don't borrow money.
What?
Everybody borrows money.
Not this guy.
Not this gal.
We're peculiar when it comes to our finances.
See, the first step is you've got to stop borrowing on credit.
Stop borrowing on credit.
Cut or get rid of the cards.
Now look, and I realize, I've been doing this
for a long time.
I do financial series about every three years.
I think this is now the third financial series
that we've done.
Some of you, unfortunately, have sat
through multiple of these series,
and you find yourself in the same financial place
every time because you're not listening.
So maybe you can listen.
But here's what you need to understand.
If you're fighting back right now, you say,
I don't know how the pastor you're picking on us
and you're stick to the Bible.
I think we were looking at a lot of Bible verses about debt.
If you're fighting back right now, just kind of
in your heart saying, I don't know, I don't know about this,
just please get this.
Check your motives.
Just check your motives.
Because the truth is this.
Much of our debt has to do with pride.
Much of our debt has to do with status.
Much of our debt has to do with us trying to look a part
that we really are not.
Here's a quote I like from Larry Burkett.
Most young people spend the first five to seven years
of their marriage trying to attain
what it took their parents 35 years to attain.
Most people go into debt because they
are trying to look a part.
And look, here's all I'm telling you.
And I'm not mad at you.
You walk out of here and say, Pastor, I don't care.
I like my student loan debt.
I like my credit cards.
I like owing more on my car than it's worth.
I love it.
Look, if that's you, God bless you.
Praise God for you.
I'm not mad at you.
But if you are with me and you say, you know what?
Debt is a burden.
It is keeping me down.
I want to get out of debt.
Please understand this.
You're going to have to make a decision.
Do you want to be the average American that looks a part?
They look.
They drive a nice car.
They've got nice clothes.
They live in a nice neighborhood.
Or would you rather not look like you're
doing that great financially, but yet
be financially strong and maybe even succeeding?
Because the truth is this.
You just got to decide.
You got to decide, would I rather
drive a car that nobody's impressed with
but it's paid for than a car that people
say, wow, look at that car.
And yet you own it or you're leasing it.
Or it's not something that really you can afford.
Step one, stop borrowing on your credit card.
And look, you need to check your motives.
You need to check your motives.
And I'm not trying to pick on you.
I'm just telling you, if the clothes you wear,
if the car you drive, if the neighborhood you live in
is the status symbol, the status thing,
I want people to know that I'm the one that
lives in this type of house, in this type of neighborhood,
with this type of property, with all these things.
I drive these types of vehicles.
You need to check your motives.
The average American will own, and we use the term loosely
because really they don't own anything,
the average American owns a mortgage
on five different homes in their lifetime.
The average millionaire, when studies are proven,
will live in one home and pay it off as soon as possible.
Warren Buffett, one of those richest men in America,
famously still lives in his Omaha, Nebraska home
he bought in 1958 for $31,000.
And here's what I'm telling you.
And when they've studied millionaires,
and I'm not saying your goal should be a millionaire.
I just want you to understand this.
When they study millionaires, they
have found that the average millionaire lives in one home
until they pay it off.
The average millionaire drives a used vehicle
that is three to four years old.
The average millionaire avoids debt.
Because you say, well, why?
Because of the fact that debt is dumb.
It's not wise.
It's not smart.
It is a tool meant to keep you down.
So if you want to get out of debt, if you want to get out
of debt, here's step one.
And it might be the hardest step.
Stop borrowing.
Shift your thinking and say, I'm against credit.
I'm against debt.
I don't want it in my life.
Or is it because it's a sin?
No, it's just not smart.
It's just not wise.
Let me say this.
If you're going to make the decision
to stop borrowing on credit, you not only
need to check your motives, but you need to avoid impulse buys.
You must avoid impulse buys.
In our home, we've made this decision.
I shared it with you last week.
And I would encourage you to take on the same idea.
And it is this, we do not make major purchases
without sleeping on it.
We don't make major purchases without sleeping on it.
When we bought our vehicle, we walked into the Honda
dealership, whatever it was.
We looked for the van that we were looking for.
We got the pricing.
We got the idea.
We walked in.
We didn't really need it, even in salesperson,
because we knew what we were looking for.
We'd already done the research.
We knew we were just wanting to actually lay eyes on it
and make sure it was actually what we wanted.
And we just thrived or whatever.
And then we looked at the sales guy and said,
we'll see you tomorrow.
Oh, you can walk away from it.
You can drive it off the lot today.
I'll give you a great interest.
And I'm thinking, it's not in my best interest to pay interest.
And look, I'm just telling you, a great way
to avoid impulse bias is just have a rule that says you don't
make major purchases without sleeping on it.
Because when you separate yourself for about 24 hours,
you may realize that you don't really need.
You don't really need.
Last time I preached a series like this,
I told you about an impulse bias.
Because look, we're not perfect.
It's not like we've got it all figured out financially.
I mean, we're trying to do these principles.
But we're sinners like you are.
I teach these things.
And I remember several years ago, my wife and I,
we're the ones that have the rule.
We sleep on it.
We don't make major purchases without sleeping on it.
We walked into a PetSmart to buy something unrelated for our dog.
And we walked out with two guinea pigs.
That haunted us for years.
And one dies, and we have to get another one,
because the other one's lonely, and it's a mess.
And we should have just gone home and slept on it.
But they were so cute.
And here's all I'm telling you is avoid impulse bias.
Avoid impulse bias.
Sometimes my wife and I, we're going
through something hard financially.
We just had recently, just this week,
had something break in our house.
We had to space $700 to get it fixed or whatever.
And my wife and I, we look at each other and say,
well, at least we don't have those guinea pigs.
At least we're done with those guinea pigs.
Avoid impulse bias.
Hebrews 13.5, you don't have to turn there, it says this,
let your conversation be without covetousness,
and be content with such things as ye have, for he has said,
I will never leave thee nor forsake thee.
So you say, I want to get out of debt.
How do you do it?
Step one, stop borrowing on credit.
That may mean you have to check your motives.
That may mean you have to stop impulse bias.
Stop borrowing on credit.
Here's step two.
Step two, get up to date on all your payments
and start making minimum payments on every month
to stay up to date.
Because remember, and you don't have to turn there,
we already read it, Psalm 37.21, the wicked
borroweth and payeth not again.
So step one, step one is to stop borrowing, stop the bleeding.
Step two is to get up to date.
If you're behind, get up to date on all your payments
and begin to make minimum payments every month
to stay up to date.
You say, well, I thought you said that minimum payments are
going to, it's a rip off.
It is a rip off, but you've already committed to it.
You've already vowed.
You've already agreed.
So owe, pay what you owe, get up to date on all your payments,
and start making the minimum payments every month
on all of your debts to stay up to date.
Step three, save up a small rainy day fund,
or I like to call it a famine fund.
And we'll talk about that next week.
Because next week, we're going to talk about preparing
for the future.
We're going to talk about savings,
and how you should save, and what the Bible talks
about savings, and not only short term savings,
but long term savings.
And we're going to get into all of that next week.
But you should save up a small rainy day fund, a famine fund,
emergency fund, whatever you want to call it.
Here's what I would advise about a month's worth of bills
that you have set aside in case of an emergency.
And here's why I believe.
I used to be against the rainy day fund.
And when we started working to get out of debt,
my wife and I, years ago, started
working to get out of debt.
Because we were dead.
We owed on our vehicle, and we owed on credit cards.
And we just got fed up with it, and said,
I don't want to live like this.
And one thing that I realized was
that I was hesitant to really throw any money
towards the debt.
I always wanted to keep some money behind,
because what if something happens?
What if there is an emergency?
So when you set up a rainy day fund, or a famine fund,
an emergency fund, when you set aside maybe about a month's
worth of finances, then that kind of frees you up.
Once you've done that, you've got that in a bank account
somewhere, or whatever, that frees you up
for the rest of months to really just throw everything
you've got towards that debt.
Because if something happens, you've got it covered.
So step three, save up a small rainy day fund,
or a famine fund.
And that's really what, biblically, it
should be called a famine fund.
And we'll talk about that next week in the sermon,
Prepare for the Future.
I'd encourage you to come for that.
Step four.
Step four, get on a clear written spending plan.
Remember last week's sermon, budgeting?
You cannot do this if you're not budgeting.
Get on a clear written spending plan.
And take any extra money that you have left over every month,
and throw it at your debt.
Remember, every dollar has a function.
And again, you go back and listen to last week's sermon
on a spending plan and budgeting.
You may either need to cut your spending,
or increase your income, or whatever.
But get your finances, financial plan in order.
And once you've done that, and here's the point.
You stop borrowing, step one.
You get caught up on all your bills, step two.
You save up a small emergency fund, rainy day fund,
in case something comes up while you're
trying to get out of debt, step three.
You get on a clear written spending plan, a budget,
and you begin to budget your finances.
And again, I'm not going to pre-preach last week's sermon.
You can go back and listen to it.
But you start figuring out your tithe, and your bills,
and you start getting your cash out,
and putting it in envelopes.
And you've got your grocery money,
and you've even got money for coffee every once in a while,
or whatever it is that you need to do.
And you've got that all figured out.
And once you've got it all figured out,
you realize, and I'm just going to use this as an example.
Because for some of you, this number
is going to be much higher.
But I'm just going to use just an easy round number.
Once you get your spending plan all done,
you realize that you've got about $100 left over.
You've already accounted for your groceries,
your spending, coffee, even put a little bit of coffee money
in there, and you're paying all your bills, and you're tithing,
and you're doing all those things.
And you've got $100 left over.
Cool.
Let's go shopping.
No.
What do we do?
We take, get on a clear-range spending plan,
and then take any extra money you have left over every month,
and throw it at your debt.
Now you say, well, how do I do that?
$100 a month, I've got a lot of debt.
I'm that guy they were talking about in that article.
I've got all of it, credit card debt, auto loan debt, mortgage
debt, everything debt.
How do I do it?
Here's how you do it.
Number five, list your debts from smallest to highest,
not including your mortgage.
List your debts from smallest to highest,
not including your mortgage.
Not an order based on interest.
You do it in order based on how much you owe.
List your debts, smallest to highest,
based on not including your mortgage, based on interest.
Now I'm just going to give you an example of this, OK?
And I don't have a whiteboard up here.
I probably should have brought up a whiteboard.
I don't have that.
So I'm going to give you something just maybe easy
for you to track with.
Let's just pretend that we're looking at an individual.
I'm trying to help an individual out.
We've done their budget.
They've got $100 left over every month
that they can throw at debt.
And then let's pretend that they've got three debts, all
right?
Now the average American has more than three debts,
but we'll just say three just to make it easier, right?
They've got debt A, debt B, debt C. They line it in order
on how much they owe, not the interest, right?
So they've got debt A. That's their American Express card,
right?
I'm just going to make these up, but just trying to help
you see how this works.
You've got a person here.
They've got an American Express card.
And let's say they owe $5,000 on it.
Their minimum payment on that American Express card is $50.
And then B, they've got a Bank of America personal loan,
right?
Because they went and bought furniture,
and the furniture store financed it for them
through Bank of America.
So they've got the Bank of America personal loan, $10,000.
Minimum payment, $100, right?
And then they've got, of course, their car loan.
Balance, $15,000.
Let's say their minimum payment is $150, right?
So we've got our three bills, A, B, C, American Express,
Bank of America, car loan, $5,000, $10,000, $15,000.
Minimum payments, $50, $100, $150.
I know that's not how it actually works,
but I'm just using low numbers, round numbers,
just to help us out.
How do you get out of debt?
Here's how you do it.
Step six, over time, as you pay off debt,
you begin to compound your debt payments.
So you take your $100 that you found,
because you actually began to budget,
and you realize, wow, I've got $100 left over
once I pay all my bills, once I pay my tithes,
once I pay the groceries, the spending.
I've even got some little coffee money left over,
or date night money, or whatever.
I've got $100 left over.
What am I going to do?
You're going to begin to throw that $100
towards your smallest debt.
So if our smallest debt is the American Express card,
with a $5,000 balance on it,
and our minimum payment is $50,
because remember, part of our spending plan
is that we're paying all of our minimum payments,
staying up to date on our payments.
If our payment is $50, then I take the $100 I found,
plus the $50 payment, and I throw it
at that American Express card every month
until that American Express card is paid off.
Let me give you step seven,
and then I'm going to go back to explaining step six.
Step seven is this.
While paying your debts off,
while paying your debts using compound payments,
at the same time, you should sell whatever you can
to get out from underneath that debt,
because here's the truth, and again,
I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just trying to help you.
Some of you are in, when you look at how much you make,
and you look at how much you owe,
you say, I'm never going to be able to pay this debt off,
and here's why.
Because you might be driving a car you really can't afford.
It's a nice car, but people who make the money you make
shouldn't be driving that car,
and I'm not trying to hurt your feelings,
I'm just telling you the truth.
You might be living in a house you cannot afford.
You might have all sorts of toys around the house,
and you should've never bought those toys.
You should've never had those toys.
So in the process, in the process of taking money
and throwing it at the debt,
you should sell whatever you can sell,
car, boat, get another house, downsize your house,
whatever you need to do to get out from underneath that debt,
and also, if you can sell it for money,
you can throw that money towards the debt.
Also this, any extra money found during this process,
because this is not something that's going to take
three months, it's something that's probably going to take
a couple of years.
For some of you, it might take five years,
it might take 10 years.
During the process, while you're paying your debt off,
any extra money found.
You say, what do you mean by that?
I'm talking about bonuses, I'm talking about birthdays,
I'm talking about tax returns,
I'm talking about inheritances.
Any extra money you have, you don't, oh great,
now we get to go on a trip.
No, now we have more money to throw at our debt,
because we're trying to get out of debt,
because debt is not wise, because debt is a burden
that is meant to keep me in financial bondage.
Here's the point, you begin to get out of debt.
You find $100 in your budget,
and you start to throw that towards your smallest debt,
the $100 plus the minimum debt payment of $50 in this example
$150, throwing it to that American Express card
every month, but you know what?
Between this process, during this time,
you get a $500 bonus at work,
so guess what you do with that $500?
You tithe, it's an increase, right?
And then you throw the rest at that credit card
till the credit card is paid off.
Say, well what do we do next?
Well then, you take any extra money found in your budget,
let's just say $100, plus the payment you used to send
to the American Express card, the $50,
and you begin to throw that
towards the second smallest bill,
which in this illustration is the Bank of America
$100 minimum payment for that furniture you bought, right?
So now you're sending $100,
plus the $50 you used to send to American Express,
plus the $100 that you found
when you actually began to budget, right?
So you've got 100, 150, another 100,
now you're sending $250 towards Bank of America,
and you're doing that every month
till you pay that debt off, and guess what?
During that time, you got a $1500 tax return.
Now what you used to do is you'd go on a cruise, right?
Or you'd go on a trip, or you'd go buy something else,
but now you're gonna take that $1500 tax return,
and you're gonna throw that towards the debt
till you pay that thing off.
Then you've got, in our example here,
your car loan left, right?
Because we're going through all our debts,
smallest to highest, not including our mortgage.
And for a lot of you, that's gonna be your car loan,
for a lot of you, that's gonna be your student loans.
But let's just say you got your car loan.
Then you take any extra money found in your budget,
$100, plus the $50 you used to send to American Express,
plus the $100 you used to send to Bank of America,
plus the $150 that you're currently sending
to Chase or whatever, and you begin to throw that
at that car, month after month after month.
And guess what?
During that time, your Aunt Trudy,
who you never even knew, died and left you
an inheritance of $3000, you throw that towards the car.
Okay, it's called compound debt payments.
You begin to take what you have, wherever you have it,
after a spending plan, you throw it at the debt,
and when you pay one debt off, you don't celebrate,
you don't go out for dinner, you take that money
you used to send to that debt,
and you begin to throw it at the next one.
And when you pay that one off,
you take the money you used to pay to this one,
take the money you used to pay to this one,
and you begin to throw it at this one.
And then you take the money you used to pay,
it's compounding, and you get, over time,
yourself out of debt.
Seven steps for getting out of debt.
What are they?
Number one, you stop borrowing on credit cards.
Number two, you get up to date on all your payments,
and start making minimum payments every month
to stay up to date.
Number three, you save up a small rainy day fund,
famine fund, emergency fund,
we'll talk about that next week.
Number four, you get a clear written spending plan,
and figure out how much money you've got left over
to play with in regards to getting out of debt.
Number five, you list your debts
from smallest to highest.
Number six, over time, as you pay your debt off,
you begin to throw that money towards your debt,
and as you pay your debt off,
you compound the debt payments
till you've paid off all of your debts.
And number seven, while you're doing this,
you sell whatever you can,
and any extra money found, bonuses, tax returns, whatever,
you send it, you pay it towards your debt.
Now, I told you I was gonna give you seven steps
for getting out of debt, and those are the seven,
but let me give you, for some of you,
because some of you are like,
man, I'm already halfway there,
I've already been doing this plan, I'm already going there.
Let me give you bonus step number eight.
Bonus step number eight is once you're completely out of debt
you're debt-free for everything except your mortgage,
which is probably gonna be most people
that say they're debt-free are debt-free
for everything except their mortgage.
My wife and I are debt-free
for everything except our mortgage.
We live in California, okay, you don't buy,
this is not Oklahoma.
You don't pay cash, you know, this is not Arkansas.
You don't pay cash for homes in California.
So you say, well, what do you do?
Here's bonus step number eight.
Once you pay off all your debts,
you set your sights on that mortgage,
and you budget, and you still go on date nights,
and you still get coffee,
and you still live like a normal person,
but you budget, and you discipline yourself,
and any extra money left over, any extra money left over,
and now you've got some money freed up
because you're not making car payments,
because you're not making credit card payments,
because you don't have student loan payments.
You begin to throw it at that mortgage,
and imagine how peculiar you would be
if you were 40 years old and had your mortgage paid off,
or 50 years old and had your mortgage paid off.
Imagine how much financial freedom you would have.
Imagine how much you could invest in God and others
if you weren't under the bondage of debt.
So I said this morning, number one, debt is not sinful.
It is not morally wrong to have debt,
but I said, number two, debt is not wise.
It is not in your best interest to pay interest,
and I said, number three, debt is not necessary.
It is possible, it is possible to live a debt-free life.
Go to Proverbs chapter 17, Proverbs 17.
We're almost done.
I just want to give you two ending thoughts
in regards to debt, and we'll be done with this sermon.
Two ending thoughts in regards to debt,
and I feel like I need to just say these
because they're in the Bible,
so let me just put this out there.
Two more thoughts in regards to debt.
Number one, avoid co-signing.
Avoid co-signing where you're asking someone
to co-sign for you, and avoid co-signing for someone else.
Proverbs 17 and verse 18 says this,
a man void of understanding, Proverbs 17, 18,
a man void of understanding, strike at hands.
That's like a handshake, right?
Strike at hands and become a surety.
You see that word surety there?
It means to guarantee or to take the responsibility
for something in the presence of his friends.
The Bible says a man void of understanding,
a man that does not understand things,
that's the type of guy that'll strike hands
and become surety, take on the responsibility
or guarantee in the presence of his friends.
We would call that today co-signing.
Proverbs 22 verse 26.
Proverbs 22 verse 26 says this,
be not thou one of them that strike hands, right?
That is, you're making a deal.
Or of them that are sureties,
meaning you are guaranteeing, you are taking responsibility,
notice what he says, be not thou one of them
that strike hands, or of them that are sureties of debt.
It is not wise to ask someone to co-sign for you
or to co-sign for somebody, this is what the Bible says.
And you say, well, I don't understand what's the problem.
Okay, let me just follow this train of thought, okay?
Banks make their money off of lending.
If you haven't got that yet,
that's why you're paying twice for that house
and three times for that car
and six times for that boat or whatever.
Banks make their money.
It's not like a bank is just like a nice neighbor
that wants to help you out, okay?
They make their money by lending.
Banks are looking for people to lend to.
In fact, they spend millions of dollars in advertising
just to find people to lend to.
Banks have sophisticated systems
to determine how much of a risk someone is
or how likely they are to default on a debt.
This is why they run your credit, right?
They've got sophisticated systems to figure out
whether you or whether someone else
is likely to actually keep their vow
and pay what they have said they were going to pay
or if they're going to default
or if they're going to go into bankruptcy
or if they're gonna leave them hanging.
Banks have sophisticated systems
to determine how much of a risk someone is
or how likely they are to default on a debt.
So look, if the bank who wants to lend
and the bank who spends millions of dollars
trying to find people to lend to
looks at somebody and says, we cannot lend to you
because you are a risk but will lend to you
if your mom will cosign or if your grandma will cosign
or if your aunt will cosign,
here's why they're doing that
because they don't expect you to pay.
In fact, their sophisticated system tells them
you're not likely to pay but grandma will
or mom or dad or aunt.
So look, if they say that someone needs a cosigner,
it's because that person will probably default on that loan.
Just realize, when you cosign,
what you're actually saying is, I'm gonna pay this bill.
And I'm not trying to pick on you.
I'm not trying to be mad at you.
I'm just trying to help you out.
The Bible says, be not thou one of them that strike hands
or of them that are sure teased for debts
because it's not wise because debt is not wise.
Avoid cosigning to help someone who is not qualified
to get into debt get debt.
And then let me just say this.
If you must go into debt,
if you must go into debt,
well pastor, you've been trying to tell us
to get out of debt.
I believe in getting out of debt.
But if you must go into debt,
because remember, I never told you that that was a sin.
I said it's not wise.
I said it's not smart.
I said it's a tool that is used by the devil
and our society to keep you down, to keep you in bondage.
But if you must go into debt,
do it only for something that is absolutely necessary.
And do it responsibly.
Say, what do you mean?
Here's what I mean.
You know, my wife and I, I'll just be honest,
we've worked hard over the years to be debt-free.
We're debt-free, everything but our mortgage.
But I'll tell you this.
If our van broke down tomorrow
and we weren't able to fix it,
I don't have $35,000 to go pay cash for a van.
And I've got six kids that need to be transported
and a wife that needs to be transported.
I would probably have to go get a loan
to get a van.
So if I'm against debt,
I think it's not a smart thing to do.
But I will tell you this.
There may be a time when you need to go into debt.
And if you need to go into debt,
I would just caution you to do it
for something that is absolutely necessary.
And I would caution you to do it responsibly.
And here's what I mean by that.
If our van broke down and I had to go get a loan
to get another van for our family or whatever,
you know, here's what I would do.
I would go to a credit union.
I would go to some sort of online bank.
I would try to get a fixed rate loan
at the lowest interest possible.
And I would get an idea of what we're looking for,
how much it's gonna cost.
I would get the loan to match that amount.
I would walk into a car dealership,
put my eyes on that vehicle.
I'd drive it around.
I'd have my wife drive it,
make sure it was something that we could actually do.
I'd say, hey, we'll come back tomorrow
because we sleep on every major purchase.
And then I would come back and I would pay for that vehicle.
And then we would get back into our debt reduction program
and begin to throw every dollar we have at that loan
till we paid it off to pay the least amount
of interest possible because debt is not wise.
And here's what I'm telling you.
That's different than what happened
when you bought that timeshare, right?
That's different than what happened
when you bought that workout equipment
that you are not using in your garage.
That's different than most.
So here's what I'm telling you.
If you must go into debt,
do it for something that is absolutely necessary.
And in my opinion, this was my humble opinion,
you can decide whatever you want.
In my opinion, that would be a family vehicle
or the home that your family lives in.
In my humble opinion, that would not be Christmas.
It would not be trips.
It would not be recreational vehicles.
It would not be a second property.
I don't need an RV.
I don't need a boat.
I don't need a motorcycle.
I don't need a rental house.
It's not necessary.
And look, I realize saying that's gonna offend some of you
because some of you have that.
I'm not mad at you.
All I'm telling you is this.
If you want to follow the biblical principles,
you would avoid debt at all costs.
And if you had to go into debt,
you would do it for something that is absolutely,
absolutely necessary.
And you'd do it responsibly.
You'd think about it.
You'd pray about it.
And here's the point.
When you realize how harmful debt can be
to your family's future,
it's something you would not do flippantly.
It's something you would be extremely hesitant to go into.
Because though debt is not a sin, it is not wise.
Though debt is not a sin,
it is a tool that is meant to keep you in financial bondage,
to keep you depressed and discouraged financially,
to keep you down and keep you behind.
Debt is not wise.
But here's the good news.
Debt is not needed.
You can live a debt-free life.
And I would encourage you to do so.
Now next week, we're gonna finish this series up
with a sermon on savings, preparing for the future.
How do you prepare for yourself in the short term
and the long term?
I would encourage you to be with us
as we wrap this Money Matters series up.
Let's bow our heads and have a word of prayer.
Heavenly Father, Lord, we love you.
Thank you for our church.
Thank you, Lord, for the Bible.
Lord, and I realize some people are just,
they're not into this.
This is not their thing.
And they're just being faithful to church,
and I appreciate them.
And Lord, I pray you'd bless them.
But Lord, there are some people
who this is what they needed to hear.
They've known for a long time that debt is dumb.
And Lord, I pray that you'd use the sermon
to encourage them, to motivate them,
and that they'd begin to walk through those practical steps
to get out of debt.
And Lord, I pray that you'd bless us.
I pray that you'd help us.
I pray that you'd be with us.
In the matchless name of Christ, we pray, amen.
I wanna encourage you to be back tonight, 6 p.m.
You say, why would I come back after that?
Tonight, we are not talking about money, all right?
Tonight, we're talking about the apostle Peter.
And here's the beautiful thing about Peter.
We get to focus on his mistakes, not yours.
So tonight, we begin a brand new series,
The Life of the Apostle Peter.
I'd love for you to join us, 6 p.m.
And we'll have Brother Matt come up
and lead us in a final song.